~!~ UNOFFICIAL Competitive Tournament Rules - Stage Ban List *UPDATED* ~!~

[Lovage 805]

Play however you want, no one is telling you how to play
This list means nothing unless you plan to attend tournaments.

 

[Kio Iranez]

Can't be said enough.

Casuals complain so much about competitive elitists telling them how to play, yet you are the ones who are flaming a competitive thread. This happens all too often. This is how we have fun: fair gameplay. Go yell anarchy somewhere else.

And seriously, if you're a competitive player, you shouldn't be mad that a certain stage will be banned at tourneys. They are banned for reasons that protect your investment in the tourney. Will picking your favorite stage really make up for losing on it because of an uncontrollable circumstance?

 

[Jellybelly]

Frigate Orpheon should be 100% tourney legal. I've seen no-one get KO'd by the flip and more variation is definitely a good thing.

My opinion of 100% tourney legal stages

FD
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshis island
Luigis mansion
& Pokemon stadium 1

 

[Admiral Pit]

I loved the Warioware stage too, but I guess the Minigames are so dangerous, they could kill you too.
Melee's Pokemon stadium wasnt banned but Pokemon Stadium 2 is? I suppose it is because of the new transformations and their effects.

 

[Crom]

Can't be said enough.

Casuals complain so much about competitive elitists telling them how to play, yet you are the ones who are flaming a competitive thread. This happens all too often. This is how we have fun: fair gameplay. Go yell anarchy somewhere else.

And seriously, if you're a competitive player, you shouldn't be mad that a certain stage will be banned at tourneys. They are banned for reasons that protect your investment in the tourney. Will picking your favorite stage really make up for losing on it because of an uncontrollable circumstance?

Thank you.

People are acting as if banning a stage for tournaments means they cant play it at home

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Frigate Orpheon should be 100% tourney legal. I've seen no-one get KO'd by the flip and more variation is definitely a good thing.

My opinion of 100% tourney legal stages

FD
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshis island
Luigis mansion
& Pokemon stadium 1

sounds realistic to me. I mean, I hate the new windmill on PS1, but there's no way that it isn't neutral.

I don't see what's so wrong with distant planet... It should at least be a counter pick if not a neutral... DDD has a lot of troble chaingrabbing on a slope so that shouldn't be big... or do we hate all walk off edges in general? but in any case.. I can't see why it should be banned and green hill a counter pick.... green hill has DDD chain throw walk off edges and campers delight checkpoints. even picto-chat should be dooable, but for a few random powerful hazards... but at least we won't be forced to compete on bland, completely plain create-a-stages

 

[Airgemini]

I think the following should be neurtal...
-FD
-Yoshi's Island
-Luigi's Manision
-Lylat Cruise
-Pokemon Stadium 1
-Smashville
-Battlefeild
-Delfino Plaza
-Skyworld

Omg I cant wait for this game any longer!!!

 

[Jellybelly]

I remember watching a video of skyworld recently. The floors are sometimes like luigis mansions and sometimes completely hollow.

Example

-Mario F-smashes Link
-Link goes flying but is stopped by a skyworld concrete floor (like luigis mansion)
-However, Link then goes hurtling through a cloud floor into the huge abyss below him.
-The concrete floor regenerate, Link cannot recover through the cloud anymore.

Skyworlds floors are actually quite dangerous. I couldn't say whether it'd be legal.

I want Delfino to be tourney legal simply because I thought mario sunshine was great. The only thing holding it back are the small sections of walk off stages.

IMO distant planet has to many interferences, the bulborb can KO and the slope becomes a water slide of death when it's raining (which is weird because it never rained in Pikmin. EVER.)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I remember watching a video of skyworld recently. The floors are sometimes like luigis mansions and sometimes completely hollow.

Example

-Mario F-smashes Link
-Link goes flying but is stopped by a skyworld concrete floor (like luigis mansion)
-However, Link then goes hurtling through a cloud floor into the huge abyss below him.
-The concrete floor regenerate, Link cannot recover through the cloud anymore.

Skyworlds floors are actually quite dangerous. I couldn't say whether it'd be legal.

I want Delfino to be tourney legal simply because I thought mario sunshine was great. The only thing holding it back are the small sections of walk off stages.

IMO distant planet has to many interferences, the bulborb can KO and the slope becomes a water slide of death when it's raining (which is weird because it never rained in Pikmin. EVER.)

I've played the game so here are my responses. Maybe I can provide insight.

your interpretation of skyworld is spot on... it's a very stupid stage and you'll quickly grow to hate it unless you are jigglypuff I think.

Delfino plaza is neutral through and through... walk off edges alone aren't enough to ban a stage I don't think... at least they shouldn't be... especially when they are not on the stage all the time.

The only time you'll get KOd by a bulborb is when you probably would have been KOd anyway. the rain, while stupid, will not normally kill you because you'll auto grab the edge or you could jump to the main platform. the fact that the walkoff edge is sloped means DDD can't chain throw on it.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Sorry for sounding like a total noob here, but what are "counterpick" stages?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sorry for sounding like a total noob here, but what are "counterpick" stages?

stages that are not banned in competitions, but will not be randomly picked either.

competitions often have a best 2 of 3 format for each round. the first match is one of the neutrals, but the second match's stage is determined by the loser and can be any neutral or counter pick.

 

[Deleted member]

On banning things...

How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way. It prevents the scrub from ever discovering the counter to the Valle CC or the diamond trick. It also creates artificial rules that alter the game, when it’s entirely possible that the game was just fine the way it was. It also usually leads to an avalanche of bans in order to be consistent with the first. When players think they have found a game-breaking tactic, I advise them to go win some tournaments with it. If they can prove that the game really is reduced to just that tactic, then perhaps a ban is warranted. It’s extremely rare that a player is ever able to prove this though. In fact, I don’t even have any examples of it.

From Dave Sirlin, long time competitive fighting game veteran, and the guy balancing the latest incarnation of the most successful fighting game ever made. Link to the entire article on banning here -

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/

Case in point - don't go around banning **** until it's proven consistently that it's game-breaking. Right now, Brawl should have virtually nothing outright banned, whether items or stages. Most of the issues with Melee's ban list have been rectified in Brawl. What remains is just petty whining about slight advantages and inconveniences.

Let Brawl justify its own ban list given time and experience, and a competitive scene. For the game to have so much banned before release is ludicrous.

 

[KevinM]

Probably the most fluent post i've seen arguing for a no-ban

I have no sides on this yet, i need to play even more myself

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

@ decadent One:

notice: i did NOT read the article... i´m sorry for that but i need to do a school-paper and i´m not really intressted in it
eventhough i want to say a few thing about why i think there are so many stages banned:

Compared to other fighting games, Super Smash Bros. is based more on Fun than anything else

so to be able to play it competitive one has to find the aspects of this game that makes it competitive.
while other fighting games aim more on that competitive aspect smash is (like most nintendo games nowadays) just a Party game with lots of "unnessecary" obstacles and things happening everywhere.
So i think, for the sake of making brawl competitve, there need to be a lot banned stages.... these can be displaced by self made stages (the stage browser here on SWF is perfect for this, i might upload some standard stages of mine someday...)

 

[Deleted member]

Read the article.
It's not about fighting games.
It's about ALL games.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

lol the link doesnt work for me :D
wierd

anyways, i still stick to my oppinion...
the game doesnt have to be broken by a technique, its enough to have it limited by it....

for example walk-off stages will result in one guy (the one who has the better char for / more skill at camping) will stay on one side, and on approach try to grab the enemy and he´s done for it....
(and so on ^^)
well, anyways i dont wanna get into an argument without even reading said article, and i like "more" stages, but not these....
why keep stages in there just to have the stages in there, and to say "we didnt destroy anything"

also it seems sirlin(who i read some articles from already) isnt talking specificly about stages( at least not in the part you quoted)
i dont think any character specific bugs should be banned either (like wobbling for example) but stages is a diffrent matter (i hope the article isnt about stages xD xD)

sry sry... i´ll shut up now

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm, the link does't seem to work for me either.
Just use sirlin.net, and click on the Playing to Win article on the right set of categories. The article is called 'What Should Be Banned'.

Right now, we don't have any concrete, definable evidence that anything needs banned (maybe Hyrule Temple for the same reasons as Melee, since that still seems broken).
All we have is theory, which hasn't panned out.

Yoshi's Island and other walk-off stages were tourney legal for years in Melee before being banned. Prior to waveshining, no one ever suggested that they should be banned because people would camp on edges, because it simply wasn't all that predominant. It's certainly not overpowering or gamebreaking. Claiming it's 'too good' is no different to claiming that top tier characters or wavedashing/Lcancelling should be banned in Melee because they're 'too good' and centralise the metagame around them.

As Sirlin's article states, banning things for being 'too good' simple devolves the game to what is second best, and simply destroys the chances of finding the counters.

Stages are no different to characters, items, techniques, or whatever.

Nothing at all should be banned within the game without concrete evidence that it is in detriment to the game. For that, we need to allow it first and see if it dominates the game. More than likely, it will not.

If you want something banned, then you should be able to prove it's gamebreaking by going and winning a few tournaments with it. Brawl is still young (as of this post, not even released in the West). We have no experts, no metagame, no developed competitive scene. We need those things before we can adequately judge what is best for them.

 

[BUM163]

i think these bans are so stupid. port town cars do kill fast, but like a train, the cars have one set path and have a cycle of how their coming. each part the cars come i guranteed you can avoid them. want proof, let me know and i'll show you. mario circuit ban as a counter pick lol? the cars are weak and if you ban it, cause of dedede then ban it. in my tournies i will have 2 bans and a stage strike. delfino as a counter and not neutral. just cause it has walk offs..... like your really gonna walk off and if dedede chains you.. oh well. the part doesn't last to long so just run from him.

nofair is ban lol. please that stage is not bad at all. ya making this game into street fighter for real. sakurai put hazzards cause he's not trying to be like other fighting games. this is like football, whateva hazzard is in, you still have to play, but this community is trying to turn this into super smash street fighter brawl.

why is pictochat ban? lol this is crazy. anyway ny will not be monkeys and follow these rules. this is crazy

 

[P.c. Chris]

/subscribe

 

[Tin]

Question. Is there a way to turn off certain stages like in Melee?

 

[NintendoTogepi]

I definitely don't think the Distant Planet stage should be banned. It seems fine to me....most of the fighting is done on the part in the middle, which isn't effected by anything at all really.

The Bulborg and the rain are relatively minor...

 

[Crazy Hobo]

One post after the release? I agree with the neutral. I would move Mario Kart, Eldin, and Port City to Counter pick for now. For debate I see Delfino Plaza, Skyworld goto Neutral. Delfino Plaza is random. At the moment I don't see people having too much a problem against Dedede's chain on wall. Skyworld seems good except you can't go through the platform unless you break it which is a disadvantage to some characters. I could see Electroplankton goto Counter, the only problem I see is the size.

 

[Cosmo!]

For debate I see Delfino Plaza,

Yes .

Skyworld

No .

goto Neutral. .

 

[Drack]

Skyworld should absolutely not be neutral. It is the Great Bay of Brawl. I'd rather see it banned than counterpick. It really favors characters with big recoveries, other characters will get bounced off the roof of the platform above and easily get gimped.

Delfino is debatable. It has temporary walkoffs that Dedede loves, and temporary water, which some charcaters hate. Other than that, I don't see many problems. The passthrough platform floor favors some characters (example: Metaknight up+Bs from below the stage hitting someone on it) but it's not a big deal.

 

[HK-50]

What I'd like to know is why Circuit and Eldin cant be counterpick is all instances where Dedede is not the one counterpicking. Those stages are reletively fair (well Eldin may have other problems) so why exclude them do to one character when their selection can easily be controlled?

I also think stages are being banned to fast. the early tournies had very few stages banned, and certainly not borderline stages like Pictochat or Circuit. I think you are limiting options to soon, when you have barely any pro play on many of these stages.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Wait, why is Great Sea counterpick? I haven't unlocked it yet but from the videos I've seen NOTHING to indicate it should be counterpick.

 

[methinkso]

Wait, why is Great Sea counterpick? I haven't unlocked it yet but from the videos I've seen NOTHING to indicate it should be counterpick.

Occasionally there's a pirate ship in the background shooting bombs at you. They can screw you over and even kill at moderate to high percentages.

 

[krlos F.]

I don't think Bridge of Eldin deservs being banned!! come on!! this stage is very playable!

 

[ArveeOnFire]

I don't think Bridge of Eldin deservs being banned!! come on!! this stage is very playable!

"Walk off edges"

 

[DogsWithJobs]

I too don't think that Bridge of Eldin should be banned. I don't see why walk off edges would be a problem, especially since green hill zone also has them and it made counterpick. In my opinion bridge of Eldin is one of the better maps to have been added in brawl and has very little randomness to it, since the bomb in the middle is not random and can be avoided completely if you hit Bulbin anyways.

 

[Tinkerer]

Why is Elektroplankton banned? At all other banned stages you at least have bombs, collapsing terrain, or whatever, but Elektroplankton is just a bunch of platforms.

 

[verditude]

Why is Elektroplankton banned? At all other banned stages you at least have bombs, collapsing terrain, or whatever, but Elektroplankton is just a bunch of platforms.

It's deceptively huge. Close to New Pork City huge. Temple was banned in Melee because fast characters could run away the whole time, same with Brawl and Electroplankton.

Also, the ceiling is sorta low, and there are platforms pretty high up on the left side. You can Uthrow camp the high platforms. It's not quite as bad as backthrow camping on walkoffs, but still annoying.

Also, tether recoveries sometimes get confused between two leaves and miss completely, screwing tether characters pretty badly.

 

[Rhubarbo]

If walk-offs are going to be legal, Eldin should definitely be legal. By the way, is this the back room list???

 

[Crazy Hobo]

I said Skyworld would be debatable. I would hate to see it go neutral. Also for the Great Sea bombs, Halberad also has bombs and a giant laser. Not all characters are Dedede chains. Walkoffs should be counterpicks if not for the reason above then they are fine.

 

[FalcoLeetness]

Isn't it a bit early to ban stages when there haven't really been a lot of tournaments yet?

What is the method used when deciding to ban, I'd like a bit more info please..

 

[NintendoTogepi]

5 neutral stages...friggin' ridiculous.

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

Way to totally avoid looking like the tourney*** stereotype guys.

 

[Frames]

Man this is annoying, I can understand your reason for banning these stages, I just wish Nintendo had helped us out a bit more in terms of fair stages. I mean even in melee we could find 6 neutral stages! I hope that the list will be revised and more neutrals will magically appear, but I know that is far from true. Oh well, at least there's stage builder!

 

[KeitaroYevon]

Tourney**** are ruining games like Brawl. "Oh, we're banning this stage because things happen in it that we couldn't expect, and it ruins our perfect record.

The random stuff in the level and the uniqueness is what makes it fun and interesting. I always do Random just so I have something fresh each time. A certain level caters to certain characters, you say? Well, try thinking of a way to counter that. Think outside the box.

None of this Fox McCloud, no items, Final Destination only crap X_X It just ruins the fun for everyone else. Face it, everyone loses sometimes. Stuff happens.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

On banning things...

From Dave Sirlin, long time competitive fighting game veteran, and the guy balancing the latest incarnation of the most successful fighting game ever made. Link to the entire article on banning here -

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/

Case in point - don't go around banning **** until it's proven consistently that it's game-breaking. Right now, Brawl should have virtually nothing outright banned, whether items or stages. Most of the issues with Melee's ban list have been rectified in Brawl. What remains is just petty whining about slight advantages and inconveniences.

Let Brawl justify its own ban list given time and experience, and a competitive scene. For the game to have so much banned before release is ludicrous.

First sensible post in this thread (aside from the DA guys, of course).