Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[Strong Badam]

lol 80-20
they might win but come on man, those MUs are arguably not even that bad in melee, let alone PM

 

[Nemiak temp]

lol 80-20
they might win but come on man, those MUs are arguably not even that bad in melee, let alone PM

The fox matchup is horrible. The falco matchup is not that bad until they start Dairing. My numbers may be a little exaggerated but they're still pretty awful matchups.

 

[Juushichi]

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that Wolf is by far GnW's best Spacie matchup. If you feel 50-50 (vs Wolf) is ambitious, then go ahead and think of it like 45-55 or something, but I think it's pretty hard to argue that it's the not best one we've got.

Falco and Fox are probably hovering closer to severe disadvantage than I think a lot of people are willing to believe. If I were to slap a number on it, maybe 35-65 for both?

To compare, I think ZSS is the worst MU we have and it is like 35-65 / 30-70. I think Ivy is closer to 4-6, Peach 45-55, Snake around the same as Peach.

 

[Metà]

there's no way zss is worse than the fox MU

 

[Dakpo]

Falco 50/50 for us? Bull****. I'd say we might be able to deal with Wolf but Falco takes a nice big **** on GW. I play with MattDotZeb every week and he puts me to shame when I go GW. I'd put it at 70/30 Falco's favor and the only reason being that and not worse is if we can take him onto a stage with platforms. Chain grab him a bit then get him on a platform and keep him up there with bacon. Fox has upsmash so that matchup is easily 80/20. Doesn't matter how many buffs you give Game and Watch he still dies at 70 or earlier to fox.

wowowowowow you might want to rethink those numbers
fox as 8-2? I hope you know what your saying
Here is the Chart
-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable
A 8-2 match-up is a -4. Fox is not an Unwinnable match-up, nor is falco a Hard counter. I would put them both at a -2. Do you have videos of these match-ups with you playing? I might be able to offer some friendly critique.

 

[Yung Mei]

holy **** everyones angry, i hate you dakpo for no reason, NERD


idk, i STILL think fox/wolf ***** us (not completely destroy, but pretty disadvantaged) and that falco is prolly our best spacie matchup

 

[Juushichi]

wowowowowow you might want to rethink those numbers
fox as 8-2? I hope you know what your saying
Here is the Chart
-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable
A 8-2 match-up is a -4. Fox is not an Unwinnable match-up, nor is falco a Hard counter. I would put them both at a -2. Do you have videos of these match-ups with you playing? I might be able to offer some friendly critique.

Where would you put ZSS, Link, Peach, TL at? (Also I guess give numbers on your most played MUs)

I think Falco/Fox hover closer to a -3 than they do a -2. As an old Brawl Mario main, it's like the difference between vs DDD (-3) and vs MK/Snake (-2).

Sure you /can/ beat DDD, but I mean, the realistic chance that you're going to beat any of them reliably is going to be slim.

For the record:
Peach (-1), Link (-1/-2), ZSS (-2/-3), TL (-1) from what I last remember playing them. Wolf (0/-1).
As for my most played: Wario (-1/-2), Pika (+1/0), Jigglypuff (+1), Falcon (+2/+1), Ike (-1), Lucario (+1)

 

[Yung Mei]

i would put peach as -1, TL as either -1 or -2 (-9999 if he camps)

i agree with most of your ratios juu

 

[Dakpo]

Where would you put ZSS, Link, Peach, TL at? (Also I guess give numbers on your most played MUs)

I think Falco/Fox hover closer to a -3 than they do a -2. As an old Brawl Mario main, it's like the difference between vs DDD (-3) and vs MK/Snake (-2).

Sure you /can/ beat DDD, but I mean, the realistic chance that you're going to beat any of them reliably is going to be slim.

For the record:
Peach (-1), Link (-1/-2), ZSS (-2/-3), TL (-1) from what I last remember playing them. Wolf (0/-1).
As for my most played: Wario (-1/-2), Pika (+1/0), Jigglypuff (+1), Falcon (+2/+1), Ike (-1), Lucario (+1)

Why does everyone think peach is a bad match up?

zss is -1 or -2
Link -1
Tl--1 or -2
Peach +1 ( played this one a lot)
Marth- 2
Bowser, DK, DDD +2
Ike - 2
Mario +2
Wolf 0
Fox -2
Falco - 2
Sonic- 0
Luigi +1
Pikachu- 0
Jiggly- 0 or +1
Falcon- +1
Wario -1
Lucario +1
Pit -1
Ness 0- theoretically we should win this...but Austin tho
Charizard 0
Ivysaur- 0
Squirtle 0 Maybe -1 not sure
MK- 0 maybe -1
Im sure Im forgetting some
Name a character and I will say

 

[Oracle]

Peach is a bad matchup. hate to say it but infinity doesn't really play the character correctly

 

[Dakpo]

Peach is a bad matchup. hate to say it but infinity doesn't really play the character correctly

Oh I guess UTDzac doesnt either then?

 

[Juushichi]

I think it's moderately close to even, but ultimately I do think Peach's walling ability and ability to punish us for little mistakes pushes it in her favor. Played the MU a bit with HankyPanky before he went back to school (in 2.5/b) and it was difficult, but he's a hell of a player even in this game. I'm pretty solid on -1 for Peach.

UTDZac is a good peach.

 

[Yung Mei]

utdzac doesnt even the shine terrible!

 

[Nemiak temp]

Why does everyone think peach is a bad match up?

zss is -1 or -2
Link -1
Tl--1 or -2
Peach +1 ( played this one a lot)
Marth- 2
Bowser, DK, DDD +2
Ike - 2
Mario +2
Wolf 0
Fox -2
Falco - 2
Sonic- 0
Luigi +1
Pikachu- 0
Jiggly- 0 or +1
Falcon- +1
Wario -1
Lucario +1
Pit -1
Ness 0- theoretically we should win this...but Austin tho
Charizard 0
Ivysaur- 0
Squirtle 0 Maybe -1 not sure
MK- 0 maybe -1
Im sure Im forgetting some
Name a character and I will say

The spacies are at least -3 but I guess you could try to debate that. Link is a HORRIBLE matchup though, as in arguably as bad as the spacies. How can you justify only a -1? I'm not trying to be a **** or a troll but have you played any good links? We don't have an approach against him and bacon doesn't do much good in this matchup either. I've seen a lot of people complain about the marth matchup too but that's the only melee top tier I DON'T have trouble with. Even in melee i dont think it was as bad as it was made out to be. With LC bacon Marth can't approach and it becomes a waiting game. NEVER play aggressive against a good marth. First one in always loses in that matchup.

 

[Juushichi]

I think Dakpo might know a little bit about vs Marth, maybe. (Sethlon)

I'll be playing a good Link next weekend and he (Dakpo) and I more or less agree with vs Link. I'll be able to test it a bit more myself.

 

[Nemiak temp]

I play with Sanity's Theif almost daily and I would argue he is the best Link out there. I haven't actually played Hylian but from videos i've seen Theif is much more efficient. But this matchup is not fun at all for game and watch. Link has too many tools to shut us down, I'd argue that it's considerably worse than a "small" disadvantage.

 

[Dakpo]

I dont think you give enough credit to our combo game. One grab on a heavy character usually leads to half their stock. Links Combo game is meh and he has a bad recovery. The reason GnW can hang with spacies at all is that if he touches them, then they die. There is no way I would ever agree Link Or Spacies are a HARD COUNTER against a character that combos them for day, Chain Grabs them, and gimps them at any percent. Maybe you should work on your Power Shield Game a little bit more against the link. What good are slow projectiles if you can reflect most? Again, Got any videos to show? I would like to see how you approach these match-ups.

I think I can safely assume Sethlon as the best marth in PM. I have played sethlon for countless hours. At high level play, Marth is a -2 i promise

 

[Metà]

It doesn't matter how hard you combo or gimp Fox when he can wall you out and KO you at like 60% off the top of the stage. G&W struggles with approaches against him. I have beaten some good Melee Fox players with G&W, but against PM Fox players who know what they're doing, I can't imagine it being any better than a -2.

 

[Yung Mei]

combo game =/= good matchup, falcon can combo a lot of characters pretty damn well, but that doesnt ncessarily mean the matchup is in his favor, like DK or some ****

 

[Nemiak temp]

Lol I play with a Link/Falco main all the time I have a very solid powershielding game. And his projectiles are still just as useful because by throwing one out he has a more or less guaranteed follow-up. If you miss the PS your hit by the projectile and he can followup. If you successfullly PS there are a fews things that will happen. 1- Bounces back and Link passively blocks it with his shield. 2- He jumps over the projectile and smacks you with another or maybe an aerial. 3- If you're close to the link when you PS you can successfully follow-up with something of your own. The problem is a *Smart Link realises that his projectiles aren't the be all end all in any matchup. They're easily avoidable and can be swatted away with hitboxes or Power shielding. A *smart link will force you to make an approach with his projectiles and punish accordingly. Good Links don't win because they have a good combo game but rather a good bait and punish game. Link forces G&W to approach and G&W simply has no good approach against Link. Spacies will always be a hard counter until G&W has either more weight or a better way to escape pressure. G&W is easily frame-locked by Link and Spacies and will never quite be able to hold his own against them. The Marth matchup is arguable I guess. I have played Zoso quite a bit and he always destroys me but tha'ts simply him outplaying me I don't think it's one of G&W harder matchups.

 

[Yung Mei]

at the very least we all agree that ganon is easy mode right

 

[Nemiak temp]

I have a tough time against Ganon but that's just me I guess. I get over zealous against him and eat way too many F-airs haha. I'd say Cpt Falcon is pretty ****in free though

 

[Yung Mei]

nah, i honestly think falcon isnt necessarily free, but just play careful (aka dont fall into obvious ****) and youll be fine, its mostly our advantage

as for ganon, just bacon, and dtilt combos

 

[Juushichi]

+ crouch. Ganon can't do too much vs a good crouching character.

 

[Dakpo]

Lol I play with a Link/Falco main all the time I have a very solid powershielding game. And his projectiles are still just as useful because by throwing one out he has a more or less guaranteed follow-up. If you miss the PS your hit by the projectile and he can followup. If you successfullly PS there are a fews things that will happen. 1- Bounces back and Link passively blocks it with his shield. 2- He jumps over the projectile and smacks you with another or maybe an aerial. 3- If you're close to the link when you PS you can successfully follow-up with something of your own. The problem is a *Smart Link realises that his projectiles aren't the be all end all in any matchup. They're easily avoidable and can be swatted away with hitboxes or Power shielding. A *smart link will force you to make an approach with his projectiles and punish accordingly. Good Links don't win because they have a good combo game but rather a good bait and punish game. Link forces G&W to approach and G&W simply has no good approach against Link. Spacies will always be a hard counter until G&W has either more weight or a better way to escape pressure. G&W is easily frame-locked by Link and Spacies and will never quite be able to hold his own against them. The Marth matchup is arguable I guess. I have played Zoso quite a bit and he always destroys me but tha'ts simply him outplaying me I don't think it's one of G&W harder matchups.

So Im going to assume that you have no vids of you playing, since you wont answer me and I have asked you twice now. I can't really relate to your posts because I'm not sure where you are in skill level tbh. It kinda just sounds like you get outplayed by everyone you play. Nothing personal.
Although I might be persuaded that fox is -3 and link is -2. But there is no way Wolf or Falco is -3

 

[Dakpo]

combo game =/= good matchup,

This is true.....But if you actually read my post you will see that I'm arguing characters that we have an amazing combo game on are not characters that should be hard counters. Yea medium disadvantage sure, fox lost a lot more than you guys realize in this recent update. I'm not sure if any of you have noticed it yet.

 

[Oro?!]

I would say ZSS is +1 vs GnW.

You missed Ganon Dakpo.

 

[Metà]

wolf is def a -1

anyone saying otherwise should go try playing a good wolf, then come back to me. there's no way it's even

 

[dettadeus]

wolf is def a -1

anyone saying otherwise should go try playing a good wolf, then come back to me. there's no way it's even

or they could try playing your wolf

 

[Nemiak temp]

So Im going to assume that you have no vids of you playing, since you wont answer me and I have asked you twice now. I can't really relate to your posts because I'm not sure where you are in skill level tbh. It kinda just sounds like you get outplayed by everyone you play. Nothing personal.
Although I might be persuaded that fox is -3 and link is -2. But there is no way Wolf or Falco is -3

My best tournament placing is tied for 5th. I'm not the most spectacular player out there by any means but I know my character and his strengths and weaknesses. I can tell when I get out played and when I get countered. And no I have no recent videos of me playing. Last time I was recorded it was my scrubby 2.0 Fox. I would say Wolf is a close enough matchup to call it even or a very small disadvantage but Fox and Falco are totally hard counters.

 

[Artimus]

Wolf MU is rough thanks to the running laser shot, long range f-smash and fast killing up-b. Fox matchup is Fox matchup. Falco has a hard time dealing with bacon, more so than other characters it seems but does big damage like always.

All in all, I think they are all 60/40 our favor, given the other person doesn't have godlike teching skill. I really like the spacies MU, personally. You can Shffl u-air/chain-grab for days and we wreck off stage with pan hit on Fox/Falco, and chair/d-tilt for Wolf.

Edit: Pan hit for President.

 

[Nemiak temp]

lol wut ^
Falco has no trouble with bacon he has lasers and dairs and nairs

 

[Artimus]

Bacon more.

 

[Dakpo]

Oro exposed my GnW with Ganon D: still think its +1 for us though!
hmm Falco does fin against bacon


SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYS
lets stop talking about match up numbers and start thinking of tactics to improve our mutually agreed bad match ups

 

[Yung Mei]

pick a different character?

 

[dettadeus]

More chef?

 

[Nemiak temp]

"It's 2013 play fox or go home." Really though every low tier main needs a pocket spacie. I wouldn't call G&W anywhere close to the bottom of the tier list but he aint fox. I think a lot of GdubZ mains will agree some matchups are just better left un played haha. But any tips for the bowser matchup? I got last at a tournament recently after being knocked into losers by M2K then fighting a random bowser. I felt like I was all around a better player than him but couldn't really figure out what to do against his bowser shenanigans. It was extremely frustrating and I'd like to be prepared next time I end up fighting a bowser.

 

[Yung Mei]

speaking of bowser, i broke a bowsers shield today, and he didnt break my shield with a charged fsmash loool

 

[Dakpo]

pick a different character?

lol I've been working on DDD and fox. I'm probably going to just stick with GnW or pick a character up that specifically counters characters with swords...which I don't think exists yet -____-

 

[Yung Mei]

i just stick with gnw because im too lazy to pick anyone else LMAO