Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[dettadeus]

ROB does well against Marth and Ike but I personally think he loses pretty hard to MK.
I think MK also probably does well against Marth and Ike. Although he has slightly less range, he has much snappier mobility options and a really good juggle game (which Marth and Ike can be pretty weak to).

 

[Juushichi]

I don't think MK is a MU that we can't particularly handle, though.

I play/ed ROB for Marth back in 2.1->2.5 and play Link almost exclusively for Ike. I guess I could play Link for Marth as well. Probably going to end up playing Link for ZSS as well.

As for improving our character's bad MUs, Dakpo. I think the inability to play certain matchups is directly dependent on how much better characters are in neutral vs us.

Against Marth, Fox, Falco (maybe Wolf, idk), Link/TL... how do we safely get in?

Against characters like Peach, TL, Snake, etc... I found that we could pretty much platform camp them and use them to aid in approaches... but those methods don't really work on the others.

 

[dettadeus]

Yeah, I agree the MK matchup seems manageable. G&W has a bit more range than he does, his fall speed is ridiculous so G&W can combo him pretty well, and he dies really early to most of G&W's moves. MK can also have a bit of a tough time gimping G&W since he doesn't have a move with a reliable hitbox below him to beat UpB. If you stay grounded most of the time you can also DI down > bucket brake basically all his usual kill moves (Nair, Bair, Dimensional Cape, Dsmash, Fsmash), and crouching in general limits MK's options pretty well because of how low G&W's crouch is.

 

[Dakpo]

Against Marth, Fox, Falco (maybe Wolf, idk), Link/TL... how do we safely get in?

I think the right way we should go about it is "how do we punish their approaches correctly"
We are one of the only characters with a frame 2 out of shield option.

Oh which reminds me. I have some interesting frame data


Jab
Comes out on frame- 4
Ends on frame-10

Dash Attack
Comes out on frame- 2

Grab
Comes out on frame- 7

Down Tilt
Comes out on frame- 7

F tilt
Comes out on frame- 10

Up B
Comes out on frame-1


So here are our options for punishing
Any one know what kind of frame advantage fox and falco have when they Nair/Dair our shields?
Also, I would love to know how many frames of invincibility we have if we perfectly wave land on to the stand from the ledge

 

[Nemiak temp]

The only thing wrong with up b out of shield is that it puts us in a bad position. Way the **** above their heads, where we struggle the most. Key gets out beat by Links u air. That's a very painful trade. Up-Bing out of shield is no way to punish an approach. Also an effective Link keeps us in shield stun where we cant up B. I'm not trying to agrue with you like "you don't know what you're talking about." Buuuut what options do we REALLY have. Up B gets us away for a second but often times we get hit on the way down anyway.

 

[Yung Mei]

dont forget to wavebounce and reverse bacons, that can help you push yourself to better positioning

 

[Nemiak temp]

Hmm. I don't try that too often I'll give it a try. I forget about the funky brawl mechanics sometimes

 

[Yung Mei]

i do it all the time because its funky and i like it, though i honestly recommend it if you upB oos, for that extra horizontal momentum that could help you avoid getting fanny blasted

 

[Dakpo]

dont forget to wavebounce and reverse bacons, that can help you push yourself to better positioning

I do this all the time and it works great.

Up-B out of shield should lead into combos if your doing it right. We should be using it when they are basically on top of us (like when falco/fox dair or nair into you)
Some helpful advice against link is to use more F-tilt. F-tilt will clank with anything link has and most of the time you will get the frame advantage off of it. Try it out, I love F-tilt. Clanks with just about everything non-air. And if link is spamming Fair then you need to bacon more.
I think the main issue with link is his juggle game and projectile game.

 

[Yung Mei]

played against a decent mk today

dont pick GNW against an MK that knows what hes doing

 

[Juushichi]

Are you sure? Can you explain why?

I've heard in general that GnW does just fine against Meta Knight here.

 

[dettadeus]

Use Bacon more. MK's attacks are all transcendent (except Dash Attack) so he can't cancel them out to approach.

 

[Metà]

I don't find the MK match-up that bad, and I play against a decent MK pretty regularly. As dettadeus said, bacon is pretty effective at keeping him out, and once you land a hit it's over.

 

[Yung Mei]

nearly all of his aerials beat mine, can chain the **** out of uair, recovery is hard because plenty of his attacks hit us underneath the ledge making sweetspotting difficult now, grabs are 2 dank, he had enough mobility to weave through bacon and slap me


also we both kill each other at -20% its hilarious

 

[Dakpo]

nearly all of his aerials beat mine, can chain the **** out of uair, recovery is hard because plenty of his attacks hit us underneath the ledge making sweetspotting difficult now, grabs are 2 dank, he had enough mobility to weave through bacon and slap me


also we both kill each other at -20% its hilarious

uhhh.... We wreck him in the air pretty hard...How does our fair not destroy any aerial he has? we can beat him with D-tilt on the ground and Bacon beats him pretty bad too. I would say even. We have to many good things going for this to be a bad match-up.

And if you're really having a problem on getting Up-air Comboed, then practice SDI to get out

 

[Yung Mei]

well, it was my first time playing the matchup

where all the vids at

 

[Nahpro]

I agree with Calvo about this. I think Metaknight is a hard match up and I don't believe bacon is really that effective against him due to his speed, deceptively large disjoint, and short height. I played this match-up a lot against metroid and for me at least, it's really hard. MK's good at edgeguarding G&W (bair and nair are excellent and have huge swaths of disjoint) and on the ground, dd to grab/downsmash can usually wait out/out range G&W's laggy attacks while at the same time keep his distance well. If he knows how to weave through the bacon (which is easy since MK is so small) then I think he wins the neutral game. I don't have any vids that can be shown that prove this but metroid recently played against a G&W in friendlies near strongbad and although he might not have been that good of a G&W, I think it illustrates some of MK's strengths in the matchup.

http://www.twitch.tv/strong_badam/b/445763008

at 47:50

 

[Yung Mei]

yes

bair ***** the **** outta gnw, especially when hes recovering

at 48:45, nair beats gnws dair

the guy i was playing said "playing mk against gnw is literally the first time ive ever felt remotely safe underneath gnw in project m"

and im pretty sure uair/dair beats the **** outta like half our aerials

 

[Dakpo]

I agree with Calvo about this. I think Metaknight is a hard match up and I don't believe bacon is really that effective against him due to his speed, deceptively large disjoint, and short height. I played this match-up a lot against metroid and for me at least, it's really hard. MK's good at edgeguarding G&W (bair and nair are excellent and have huge swaths of disjoint) and on the ground, dd to grab/downsmash can usually wait out/out range G&W's laggy attacks while at the same time keep his distance well. If he knows how to weave through the bacon (which is easy since MK is so small) then I think he wins the neutral game. I don't have any vids that can be shown that prove this but metroid recently played against a G&W in friendlies near strongbad and although he might not have been that good of a G&W, I think it illustrates some of MK's strengths in the matchup.

http://www.twitch.tv/strong_badam/b/445763008

at 47:50

BWAHAHAHAHA <3 TMAC!
I played Tmac in brawl before. He has a pretty good DDD. And he knows I don't mean for him to take this personally but that was a terrible GnW. He probably hasn't played the character much. So pleasepleaseplease don't take this as an example of the MK match-up. He threw 1 piece of bacon through his first 3 stocks...
1st. Learn to SDI dair so it can't combo into Up-B
2.Mk is not good at edgeguarding us. If you are getting hit with Bair or nair, then you aren't sweet spotting the ledge with our recovery.
3.Bacon literally stops people from DD camping us. It has no lag on it. If you think he is going to punish short hop Double bacon, then be ready to shield and space far away from him. He has no projectile, He has to approach. I can try to get a vid of Infinity playing MK. I feel like the match-up is even.
Also, our Up-air beats his Dair.... just Saying

You guys just don't give our character enough credit :/

I'm calling you guys out Nemiak and Calvo. I'm half convinced you guys think our character is total garbage.

 

[Yung Mei]

the ****

i never said that

i think our character is TOO damn good (for the sake of balance), its just that certain characters fanny blast us (spacies and mk to my experience at least), these are legit the only chars ive ever said butt blasts us

also my name is now meiling im just too poor and dont feel that its worth spending a dollar just to change my name lool

 

[Dakpo]

So far characters with swords and Shines are just about our only bad match-ups. We should be discussing how match-ups are bad and solutions to beating them instead of just putting the bad.

 

[Yung Mei]

best solution imo is to just pick a different character

or camp with bacon

camp REALLY hard


and avoid the following stages - Yoshi's Story, anything on the top row that isnt Draculas Castle, to a certain extent wario ware, PS1, and whatever you do dont go on that stupid sonic stage (not for matchup reasons, but just because that stage is fugly)

i dont really have much to say about swords, (since only sword char ive played yet that was good was MK), so hopefully in the future i play a link or something cuz i wanna try that matchup. Ike too. Imo marth/gnw might be pretty close to neutral

 

[Deleted member]

Stop worrying about matchups. Just short hop double bacon and d tilt.
The end. Thread closed.

 

[Juushichi]

get out, both of you

all of the stages you mentioned as being "terrible" for GnW he is fine on in some matchup or another.

 

[Yung Mei]

what, i was talking about for spacies and mk

 

[Nahpro]

@Dakpo: I prefaced my post by saying that G&W was bad (I didn't say terrible because I don't like to make judgements like that about people I don't know, but that's just personal preference and since you know him, that's your right). I highlighted that video to show what a player, who is intensely familiar with playing against G&W (metroid), can do using MK's tools. He can bait and out range and use MK's grab game, which is very, very good when combined with his fast and large dsmash range. It all combines into a ground game that is good at waiting for holes in defenses or lag on attacks and capitalizing on them. They both combo each other to hell and back so that's cool but for the neutral game, I (PERSONAL OPINION) think MK has the edge as long as he is aggressively defensive, using a play style like captain falcon DD camping.

I personally think G&W is a great character but very polarized. Pretty much the only reason I created an account here was out of indignation that G&W was widely considered the worst character in the game not too long ago. I think he straddles the line between high mid-tier and low high-tier fairly well and his weakness to swords or fox's upsmash (and to a lesser degree his reflector) are not insurmountable. But wouldn't establishing these issues as either issues or non-issues be the first step to devising counter strategies, as you suggest? We have to agree at least on the facts before we can extrapolate or "theorycraft" or play around them, right? Anyway, I believe these weaknesses are real and worth discussing in a thread like this. Sorry. Also, I don't have a gif.

P.S. I'm not nemiak in case you confused us. I don't think he weighed in on this issue so I wouldn't want to drag his name into the mud.

EDIT: About your points. 2. MK is very good at edge guarding. All he has to do is camp the ledge, jump stall and nair. Or wave dash to the ledge and jump stall and bair. As long as he knows the limits of your recovery range, he can cover it.
3. Bacon is not perfect and with a small hit box, he can avoid a lot of it fairly well. He can grab on shield or dash attack through it (MK's dash attack is pretty safe). He has dimensional cape and like I said, I believe his downsmash outranges all of our attacks if tipped properly and it comes out on like frame 5 or 6 or something.

 

[Dakpo]

wolf is def a -1

anyone saying otherwise should go try playing a good wolf, then come back to me. there's no way it's even

Also, Is Rat considered a good wolf?

 

[Dakpo]

@Dakpo: I prefaced my post by saying that G&W was bad (I didn't say terrible because I don't like to make judgements like that about people I don't know, but that's just personal preference and since you know him, that's your right). I highlighted that video to show what a player, who is intensely familiar with playing against G&W (metroid), can do using MK's tools. He can bait and out range and use MK's grab game, which is very, very good when combined with his fast and large dsmash range. It all combines into a ground game that is good at waiting for holes in defenses or lag on attacks and capitalizing on them. They both combo each other to hell and back so that's cool but for the neutral game, I (PERSONAL OPINION) think MK has the edge as long as he is aggressively defensive, using a play style like captain falcon DD camping.

I personally think G&W is a great character but very polarized. Pretty much the only reason I created an account here was out of indignation that G&W was widely considered the worst character in the game not too long ago. I think he straddles the line between high mid-tier and low high-tier fairly well and his weakness to swords or fox's upsmash (and to a lesser degree his reflector) are not insurmountable. But wouldn't establishing these issues as either issues or non-issues be the first step to devising counter strategies, as you suggest? We have to agree at least on the facts before we can extrapolate or "theorycraft" or play around them, right? Anyway, I believe these weaknesses are real and worth discussing in a thread like this. Sorry. Also, I don't have a gif.

P.S. I'm not nemiak in case you confused us. I don't think he weighed in on this issue so I wouldn't want to drag his name into the mud.

EDIT: About your points. 2. MK is very good at edge guarding. All he has to do is camp the ledge, jump stall and nair. Or wave dash to the ledge and jump stall and bair. As long as he knows the limits of your recovery range, he can cover it.
3. Bacon is not perfect and with a small hit box, he can avoid a lot of it fairly well. He can grab on shield or dash attack through it (MK's dash attack is pretty safe). He has dimensional cape and like I said, I believe his downsmash outranges all of our attacks if tipped properly and it comes out on like frame 5 or 6 or something.

Yes I am aware that you forwarned everyone that Tmac <3 might not be the best GnW and all, but I didn't like the video because he was punished for doing big "don't" with the character
I think we have ALL established that we lose to fox's Up-smash and swords. They have been established long before anyone ever mentioned them. We can generally agree whats bad for us. How about some Ideas on how to fix them? Has any one noticed the crazy pan combos we have at the spacies at low percents?

 

[Nahpro]

In unrelated news, I also think Wolf is by far the least offensive of the space animals and is a pretty manageable match-up since he can't just get random kills at 60%. I base this on playing against Rat, who I do think is considered a good wolf.

 

[Yung Mei]

idk man, i think still falco is still more managable than wolf (not by a lot, but definitely more manageable)

 

[Nemiak temp]

Yoooo I'm getting called out haaard up in here. I've never once said that GnW is a terrible character I've simply stood by my opinion that some matchups aren't worth playing as GnW. (Fox/Falco and to a lesser extent Link, Links more a very solid character that's difficult to play against) I wouldn't bother playing the guy if I thought he was bad. In other news: I played a really good MK tonight and I've gotta say that this matchup probably leans a lot more in our favor than his. MK can kill us pretty quickly with u-air chains to shuttle loop but as long as you don't not fall for that **** it's not too hard to control the match. But I don't have recent videos therefore I must be ass in the eyes of the *almighty dakpo*
EDIT:
@Calvo
Why don't you like Yoshi's? Edge cancelled bairs all over the place into dairs is like the best thing and Yoshi's is one of the best stages for that. It's just "hard" to sweetspot your up-b here. Is that your only reason?

 

[Dakpo]

But I don't have recent videos therefore I must be *** in the eyes of the *almighty dakpo*

lol I said not to take it personal earlier. Guess you took it personally. My bad, I don't mean to offend by any means. You just seem to complain instead of contributing info or solutions.
Cue inspirational music
It really doesn't do anyone any good to linger on our weaknesses . I wouldn't care If you were the worst or best player in the world. As long as you're actively trying to make our character better I will respect your opinion. That's why I'm trying to steer everyone away from match-up ratios and Tier lists. If you can focus on how to just play hard and work on improving your game it will make everyone better! As one of the original good zss (and still one of the best IMO) I did my best to contribute all sorts of interesting options to beat things we couldn't in the past. I watched Zss rise from mid tier to the bottom of high tier and then climb even further. Even though Nick Riddle seemed mostly condescending on the zss boards he was always critically thinking and helped push the character forward. Now I hope to do the same for GnW. We can continue to whine about our bad match-ups or we can improve them as a team. It's all about having a high level mentality.
#Nickriddle #Denti #Strong Bad #V115 #DRN #Sethlon #Oracle #Delux

 

[Nemiak temp]

lol I said not to take it personal earlier. Guess you took it personally. My bad, I don't mean to offend by any means. You just seem to complain instead of contributing info or solutions.
Cue inspirational music
It really doesn't do anyone any good to linger on our weaknesses . I wouldn't care If you were the worst or best player in the world. As long as you're actively trying to make our character better I will respect your opinion. That's why I'm trying to steer everyone away from match-up ratios and Tier lists. If you can focus on how to just play hard and work on improving your game it will make everyone better! As one of the original good zss (and still one of the best IMO) I did my best to contribute all sorts of interesting options to beat things we couldn't in the past. I watched Zss rise from mid tier to the bottom of high tier and then climb even further. Even though Nick Riddle seemed mostly condescending on the zss boards he was always critically thinking and helped push the character forward. Now I hope to do the same for GnW. We can continue to whine about our bad match-ups or we can improve them as a team. It's all about having a high level mentality.
#Nickriddle #Denti #Strong Bad #V115 #DRN #Sethlon #Oracle #reflex

I've got a bit of a *temp*er (HAHA) and tend to take things personally and knee jerk react. "WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU THINK ITS A -2 MATCHUP BULL**** IT'S AT LEAST A -3!" But I get you. I'm trying to prove not only myself as a good GnW but as GnW himself as a good character. Whining about the matchups I don't like or have trouble with is counter productive and surely just makes me look like a scrub. Onto improving mentalities and gameplay!

 

[Dakpo]

Thats more like it!
So gentlemen, lets begin. Which match-up should we brake down and try to improve on? I'm up for taking a look at the one of the spacies or Marth. What do you guys think?
Off to bed ZzZzz

 

[Nemiak temp]

I have a lot of good Marths in my melee group. I can effectively out camp them and wavedash in - Jab when I get an opportunity. I often lose the matches anyway because let's face it, it's a pretty unpleasant matchup especially in melee but I can always keep it very close. In project M we have bacon. This sort of helps with camping them but not really they can swat through it wit most of marths approaches. The best I can say is stay mobile but not agressive and just outside Marth's range. Capitalize HARD. I don't think throwing out Judgement is a good idea in this matchup. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't go so well and Marth's punish game is one of the best in the game. This is one of the few matchups I can actually play patiently without getting frustrated and going gung-ho with fairs and down-tilts. (Zelda! I'd like advice on this match-up if anyone has some). Marth definitely has an edge hear but I don't think it's as bad as it's made out to be. Obvious stuff like try to stay below him etc...

 

[Yung Mei]

Yoooo I'm getting called out haaard up in here. I've never once said that GnW is a terrible character I've simply stood by my opinion that some matchups aren't worth playing as GnW. (Fox/Falco and to a lesser extent Link, Links more a very solid character that's difficult to play against) I wouldn't bother playing the guy if I thought he was bad. In other news: I played a really good MK tonight and I've gotta say that this matchup probably leans a lot more in our favor than his. MK can kill us pretty quickly with u-air chains to shuttle loop but as long as you don't not fall for that **** it's not too hard to control the match. But I don't have recent videos therefore I must be *** in the eyes of the *almighty dakpo*
EDIT:
@Calvo
Why don't you like Yoshi's? Edge cancelled bairs all over the place into dairs is like the best thing and Yoshi's is one of the best stages for that. It's just "hard" to sweetspot your up-b here. Is that your only reason?

say hello to dying at 20% (exaggeration) to fox/falco/marth/DK and a couple others (dk is actually fairly manageable, but yes he still can kill relatively early, at least in my experience)

i didnt say it was a bad stage for us entirely, but we get hella ****ed up by some chars on there

 

[Yung Mei]

Thats more like it!
So gentlemen, lets begin. Which match-up should we brake down and try to improve on? I'm up for taking a look at the one of the spacies or Marth. What do you guys think?
Off to bed ZzZzz

spacies definitely should go first, marth is just marth, there isnt much complexity about that matchup, just space bacons and try and get underneath him (onstage/in the air), since he cant do much about it


accidental doublepost my bad

 

[Nemiak temp]

I disagree. Marth IS just Marth but he's also a really tough character to learn to deal with. It's important to talk about this matchup just as much so as the spacies. If bacon is getting you ANYWHERE against a Marth, he probably doesn't know how to deal with GnW and you shouldn't really rely on it. Also about the Yoshis thing I still don't get it. GnW can kill early here with his N-air against like all of the cast and has a pretty solid platform game. Play safer? We die early like everywhere I'd think this is one of his better stages. He's wacko powerful, take advantage of that for early kills on small stages.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm a marth main and I'm picking up GnW.
Marth used pivot fsmash out of Fthrow. It was super effective!

 

[Dakpo]

I have played sethlon for countless hours at a time. I would say It is the match-up I know the best....Don't let that fool you to think I win it very much.