Unity Ruleset Subdiscussion: Stage legality

[Grim Tuesday]

Generally here people differentiate between not choosing/turning on/etc... and banning by saying that the former doesn't require justification while the latter does, it isn't just semantics.

And I'd like to see a video of someone showing how broken LM is, please.

 

[Browny]

Is the brawl metagame really so dead and boring that the only way to make it seem interesting is to entertain the thought of reviving long-banned stages?

LM had its time, was banned, and sent to hell before you even played competitive brawl grim. You dont need videos. Every TO knows how utterly ******** the stage is. You might as well prove that SSE speedruns are neutral and viable; it doesnt mean any TO is going to allow it. Find me a video of someone proving New Pork is broken. I mean seriously, find one. Would you rather not because its a complete waste of time? funny that, since that what people think about LM.

The fact this is even being considered is a joke.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Your arguing semantics still, you know very well that people mean to ban them by turning them off even if you don't see it this way, I will not discuss this further, semantics are not a road I will go down. I suggest you do the same.

As for Mansion, well tough, you can take my word and the multiple to's, I'm not giving vid evidence like the "Legalize Mario Bros" thread you made when you asked me to show it being broken. I'm not giving vid evidence of a DK living til the 500% range, or a G&W using bucket breaking to slide on the floor and live just as long. Or a Wario running around the set-up.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You know you can break the mansion down, right?

 

[John12346]

This is from 2008, but yeah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujLvRh_4JHQ

A lot of matches like this one caused the stage to get banned as far as I know.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, Mansion is thoroughly broken. If the house was all fallthrough it'd be a different story... but it isn't.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

*sigh*

Wish we could just do FLSS, then we wouldn't have to worry about whether stages were actually broken or not.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You know you can break the mansion down, right?

I addressed this already, yes but some players and characters don;t care about while the other character may need to break the house to do anything about the opponent.

 

[san.]

There really isn't any argument against breaking down the house other than pure laziness. I'd rather have depth instead of catering to people too lazy to understand how to implement a stage correctly.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That is depth, but it doesn't produce depth to a good level, one character doesn't care for breaking the house and will put no effort into doing such while another must break the house or they will lose, while this is happening the opponent is poking and proding you while staying in the house to stop you from breaking it.

Then you get those other moments where you get two characters who continuously tech and survive til 500% on each stock to the point matches never end here due to the cave of life that exists here.

That stage is very much bannable.

 

[Life]

I think Luigi's Mansion and Skyworld are the only COMPLETELY BROKEN stages we have.

/justforpun

Nah, Mansion's fine. RR, you say the opponent will be poking you while you knock down the house, but isn't the point of knocking down the house that it forces your opponent to confront you? And don't you have to be attacking anyway to kill the house?

 

[MK26]

Yeah, Mansion is thoroughly broken. If the house was all fallthrough it'd be a different story... but it isn't.

mansion+

QQ

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Luigi's Mansion and Skyworld are the only COMPLETELY BROKEN stages we have.

/justforpun

Nah, Mansion's fine. RR, you say the opponent will be poking you while you knock down the house, but isn't the point of knocking down the house that it forces your opponent to confront you? And don't you have to be attacking anyway to kill the house?

Some characters are going to attack because they want the house to live til 500% or so %.

Characters like Wario and Sonic are going to use it to stall since they can circle camp while the house is around, then you wait 30 sec and do it again.

 

[san.]

Well possibly. Have those two characters been a problem on the stage before?
It's just that ROB video from 2008 did nothing to really convince me.

 

[T-block]

I think Mansion is fine. If you want your opponent dead, break the house until there is only one section left. If there is only one section left and you want to tech to live, break the remaining section. If you see your opponent is doing this, prevent him from breaking the remaining section.

It's all strategic, and often one player wants to break the house while the other is trying to stop it from being broken. Players are being pitted against each other - seems competitive to me.

 

[san.]

All these "Wario/Sonic can camp you death" arguments for all of these borderline stages are really getting old, since the argument quickly devolves.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Is the brawl metagame really so dead and boring that the only way to make it seem interesting is to entertain the thought of reviving long-banned stages?

LM had its time, was banned, and sent to hell before you even played competitive brawl grim. You dont need videos. Every TO knows how utterly ******** the stage is. You might as well prove that SSE speedruns are neutral and viable; it doesnt mean any TO is going to allow it. Find me a video of someone proving New Pork is broken. I mean seriously, find one. Would you rather not because its a complete waste of time? funny that, since that what people think about LM.

The fact this is even being considered is a joke.

You know what? LM had its time, and then was banned. But you know what the problem with that is? That was 2008. Case in point:

This is from 2008, but yeah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujLvRh_4JHQ

A lot of matches like this one caused the stage to get banned as far as I know.

Those players were horrible. Seriously, that MK was beyond bad. And at that level, gameplay may have seemed pretty gay. But guess what: M2K vs. Meep (scrooging time-out) was ****ing retardedly gay. Dojo vs. Gnes (Dair camping time-out) was super gay. So why did we learn to deal with that instead of, you know, banning it?

Oh right. WE GOT BETTER.

Saying "this stage is broken" and then pointing to matches from 2008, or better yet just saying "well duh it's broken, here's my ****ty theorycraft based on backwards stage knowledge". I'm not even going to get into how backwards your SSE comparison is, I'll let someone else bring that up. And yet, stages continue to get banned for ******** reasons. PTAD hasn't seen play in god knows how long, never mind that you'd have to be fairly ******** to get hit by the cars (or outplayed by a mile and a half) and the road really alleviates most of the issues that the lack of ledges would provide. Green Greens was legal in MLG with no complaints. Same with Norfair (Norfair also has large parts of Texas supporting it). So what's really wrong with those stages, huh? Oh right, we're too scrubby to get used to them. Yes, I went there. I haven't used this word in a long time, but **** if it isn't accurate when used to describe people who are just too lazy to get better.

That said, a video project "this is why X is broken" would be a very good idea, and IMO a worthwhile project for the sake of newer brawlers.

There really isn't any argument against breaking down the house other than pure laziness. I'd rather have depth instead of catering to people too lazy to understand how to implement a stage correctly.

Have my babies? Now if only everyone thought like this.

 

[xDD-Master]

Why are they getting old if they are still true?


Meta Knight, Fox or Sonic camping you on Temple isn't getting old as well lol

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The problem is that they aren't true. They never were, they simply were established as truth with no sound backing whatsoever. I have NEVER seen any of that happening at a high level, especially when you consider that the stages were banned before a high level of play was even possible.

 

[san.]

@BPC

That's because I use a character where I have to learn to deal with all types of camping anyways. I have been pretty successful with finding ways around camping methods so far. Because of that I am very lenient towards camping in general.

 

[Blacknight99923]

LOLOLOL @ this thread


That being said Novia Scottia isn't really a good region to compare, its players (as in attending events) have had practically no influence on events outside its region (as in they aren't placing well at nationals or regionals, but if I'm wrong link results LOL) and has always used a radically different ruleset (such as banning metaknight, or a very very diverse stage list)

@ the rest of the thread
We could go on for days discussing how random variables add or detract from depth or why they should or should not be in the game. We've already seen from Orion ****ting on Grim (in this thread or the other) that you can have depth in basically any ruleset. However....not all depth is good.

PS2 being random may not be an issue of this debate, but its physics changes are most certainly degenerate. If you don't believe me I suggest you go wifi orion as I'm sure he'd be MOST happy to oblige you. So despite supposedly increasing game options you basically force specific types of gameplay which most certainly take away from the rest of the metagame. Again go play Orion LOL.

When you add Random Hazards such as picto chat you have 2 options.

play in a way that they won't hit you, or play and hope they don't hit you LOL

If you chose the first option your automatically limiting your options becuase of something that may or may not happen, its also something your opponent does not under any circumstances control. If you chose to not restrict yourself you also risk losing the match for something outside of your control.

Added depth isn't always beneficial as the above, both players must limit their options to avoid something that isn't random such as japes or hell even PTAD if you want to go that far. Raziek actually linked a video where the pikachu in question was actually hit by a klap trap while he was going for the ledge when he was still ABOVE the stage LOL.

These hazards are generally considered "reactable" static and people use arguments to support their legalization. However this fails to take into consideration what ACTUALLY happens in a match.

If I made every effort to avoid a klap trap or car I would most certainly not be making every effort in fighting my opponent unlike brinstar in which getting hit by acid is a slap on the wrist what happens when I get hit by a klap trap? Or a car? I get punished with a STOCK LOL. You HONESTLY don't think that won't cause stage abuse? Or being forced to play on it a VERY specific way such as Rainbow cruise?


tl;dr instead of worrying about how random something is its more important to be concerned with how it affects a match. Does it force degenerate play? Does it add to gameplay? Is it subject to abusive tactics that dominate a match? Overall is the presence of this hazard, or stage transformation contribute to adding to the game or not?

 

[xDD-Master]

^ Very nice post!

 

[san.]

PS2 being random may not be an issue of this debate, but its physics changes are most certainly degenerate. If you don't believe me I suggest you go wifi orion as I'm sure he'd be MOST happy to oblige you. So despite supposedly increasing game options you basically force specific types of gameplay which most certainly take away from the rest of the metagame. Again go play Orion LOL.

I was waiting for an actual reason, but whatever. I'd rather play him in person. What kinds of things do you expect people to understand from this? Playing Orion lets you see how playing towards transformations' strengths aids you on your way to victory? I am still not understanding what you "most certainly" do.

When you add Random Hazards such as picto chat you have 2 options.

play in a way that they won't hit you, or play and hope they don't hit you LOL

If you chose the first option your automatically limiting your options becuase of something that may or may not happen, its also something your opponent does not under any circumstances control. If you chose to not restrict yourself you also risk losing the match for something outside of your control.

I pretty much agree with this. However, I wouldn't call it depth but lack of depth. Sacrificing depth for innate randomness.

Added depth isn't always beneficial as the above, both players must limit their options to avoid something that isn't random such as japes or hell even PTAD if you want to go that far. Raziek actually linked a video where the pikachu in question was actually hit by a klap trap while he was going for the ledge when he was still ABOVE the stage LOL.

I wouldn't call Pictochat added depth, so let's talk about PS2. I wish you gave me examples of HOW players limited their options in each scenario.

To me, PS2 does not ask the player to do anything outlandish in regards to stage adaptation. Some balance may even be maintained because I doubt characters are **** on every transformation against another viable character.

There are strategies for each transformation that certain characters can employ. For example, on the wind transformation, one may choose whether to take flight and initiate aerial combat or stand firmly on the ground and make use of opponents' lack of fall speed.

PTAD "limits" you in that you have to watch out for cars, but for most of the transformations, you can see the cars in the background so gameplay can progress normally. On others, you may have to go towards the sides.

I think the first example adds depth because it allows one to prepare for the upcoming event and maximize your positional advantage. The second I believe detracts from depth because it is leaving everything to chance, forcing you to the walls temporarily until you're sure it's safe, unless the stage gives you more subtle clues that the cars are definitely coming (Ex. staying on the transformation instead of quickly going to the next, maybe). It still is only temporary and the sides are "most certainly" playable for 10 seconds, so it doesn't seem like too much of a big deal.

Right now, I'm kind of neutral on PTAD. I am more worried about the static structure, such as the main platform, instead of the hazards.

Japes, you just need to look at the timer. If the kroc WASN'T there, then the stage would be bannable because of sharking and circle camping. The kroc makes those tactics much much more difficult due to the timed behavior of the kroc. You know exactly when to pressure someone who is anywhere near the kroc.

These hazards are generally considered "reactable" static and people use arguments to support their legalization. However this fails to take into consideration what ACTUALLY happens in a match.

I don't know, I actually play on these stages (not PTAD) so most of what I say is reinforced by my own experiences. These are against good players btw.

If I made every effort to avoid a klap trap or car I would most certainly not be making every effort in fighting my opponent unlike brinstar in which getting hit by acid is a slap on the wrist what happens when I get hit by a klap trap? Or a car? I get punished with a STOCK LOL. You HONESTLY don't think that won't cause stage abuse? Or being forced to play on it a VERY specific way such as Rainbow cruise?

You can DI/SDI the klap trap/ kroc, and it only kills you at like 50-60%+ if you mess up. I can't really think of too many ways it could cause stage abuse other than intentionally hitting your opponent in that area with precise timing. I think that these stages are pretty lenient with the way you can play them. The cars/kroc are small factors in limiting the way you wish to play. They add extra elements to the playing field and it is your choice on how you want to utilize it.

Pictochat takes away options and leaves everything to randomness, since there isn't really much of an easy way to avoid handling the appearance of transformations.

tl;dr instead of worrying about how random something is its more important to be concerned with how it affects a match. Does it force degenerate play? Does it add to gameplay? Is it subject to abusive tactics that dominate a match? Overall is the presence of this hazard, or stage transformation contribute to adding to the game or not?

We agree on some things, disagree on others. What you see as 'bad depth' I see as lack of/lowering depth, mostly.

Important things to think about. We also cannot think as though we are "newbs" to the stage. Think as though we are very experienced and knowledgeable about the stage. Helps even more if you actually are.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I was waiting for an actual reason, but whatever. I'd rather play him in person. What kinds of things do you expect people to understand from this? Playing Orion lets you see how playing towards transformations' strengths aids you on your way to victory? I am still not understanding what you "most certainly" do.



I pretty much agree with this. However, I wouldn't call it depth but lack of depth. Sacrificing depth for innate randomness.



I wouldn't call Pictochat added depth, so let's talk about PS2. I wish you gave me examples of HOW players limited their options in each scenario.

To me, PS2 does not ask the player to do anything outlandish in regards to stage adaptation. Some balance may even be maintained because I doubt characters are **** on every transformation against another viable character.

There are strategies for each transformation that certain characters can employ. For example, on the wind transformation, one may choose whether to take flight and initiate aerial combat or stand firmly on the ground and make use of opponents' lack of fall speed.

PTAD "limits" you in that you have to watch out for cars, but for most of the transformations, you can see the cars in the background so gameplay can progress normally. On others, you may have to go towards the sides.

I think the first example adds depth because it allows one to prepare for the upcoming event and maximize your positional advantage. The second I believe detracts from depth because it is leaving everything to chance, forcing you to the walls temporarily until you're sure it's safe, unless the stage gives you more subtle clues that the cars are definitely coming (Ex. staying on the transformation instead of quickly going to the next, maybe)

Japes, you just need to look at the timer. If the kroc WASN'T there, then the stage would be bannable because of sharking and circle camping. The kroc makes those tactics much much more difficult due to the timed behavior of the kroc. You know exactly when to pressure someone who is anywhere near the kroc.



I don't know, I actually play on these stages (not PTAD) so most of what I say is reinforced by my own experiences. These are against good players btw.



You can DI/SDI the klap trap/ kroc, and it only kills you at like 50-60%+ if you mess up. I can't really think of too many ways it could cause stage abuse other than intentionally hitting your opponent in that area with precise timing. I think that these stages are pretty lenient with the way you can play them. The cars/kroc are small factors in limiting the way you wish to play. They add extra elements to the playing field and it is your choice on how you want to utilize it.

Pictochat takes away options and leaves everything to randomness, since there isn't really much of an easy way to avoid handling the appearance of transformations.




We agree on some things, disagree on others. What you see as "bad depth" I see as lack of/lowering depth, mostly.

Important things to think about. We also cannot think as though we are "newbs" to the stage. Think as though we are very experienced and knowledgeable about the stage. Helps even more if you actually are.

I pretty much agree with what you post (I mean outside of stuff we said we disagreed with but thats all good)

I mean personally I'd rather get rid of the cars than klap trap because of the percentage of the stage area thats covered at the time, there's also lack of ledges on a large portion of the stage ect.


I also feel like if I have to keep looking at a timer (on japes) thats less time I'm looking at my opponent, but we aren't going to get anywhere stating why we disagree on this part LOL, I respect your opinion.




As for PS2 I honestly don't feel like giving specific examples will really do it justice on the ice and wind portions(often times its character specific like how metaknights dash grab will put you on one end of the stage to like the other with the option to D throw while sliding that far LOL) , however on the ground and electric are universal to most characters in that the ground promotes camping via the hill and the electric has a tendency to push people back to the ledge often times reseting the situation over and over with very little actual play going on.


I honsetly didn't mean to come off as supporting picto chat at all (in the slightest if I did LOL)

The problem with assuming people are going to be experts on stages in a forum environment is it often times gives a very basic understanding of what goes on on a stage.

For example I could state Frigate orpheon is a good stage to counterpick ice climbers if brinstar has been banned,for example when the stage flips ice climbers are forced into the air (in which this can set up for juggles), their recovery is hurt on the right side and if popo is somehow desynched with nana and popo goes on the platform on the right Nana will not go back to him. Making it very easy for characters to **** nana and fight sopo.

The above post may be somewhat informative but it still lacks actually KNOWING what will happen and knowing how to abuse it in each situation. In a forum enviroment its just not practical to assume what people say is how it actually occurs in a real match.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

LOLOLOL @ this thread


That being said Novia Scottia isn't really a good region to compare, its players (as in attending events) have had practically no influence on events outside its region (as in they aren't placing well at nationals or regionals, but if I'm wrong link results LOL) and has always used a radically different ruleset (such as banning metaknight, or a very very diverse stage list)

But here's the thing. If a certain stage was used, without issue, by them, it means one of two things:
1. The stage is actually not as bad as the hype would claim
2. Nova Scotia is too incompetent to abuse the hazards in cases where they are so well-used that they are cited as a constant ban criteria for a stage

...Somehow I feel that it's reasonable to give NS the benefit of the doubt. Especially when the former repeats itself with things like parts of the Midwest, Texas, and of course MLG!

@ the rest of the thread
We could go on for days discussing how random variables add or detract from depth or why they should or should not be in the game. We've already seen from Orion ****ting on Grim (in this thread or the other) that you can have depth in basically any ruleset. However....not all depth is good.

PS2 being random may not be an issue of this debate, but its physics changes are most certainly degenerate. If you don't believe me I suggest you go wifi orion as I'm sure he'd be MOST happy to oblige you. So despite supposedly increasing game options you basically force specific types of gameplay which most certainly take away from the rest of the metagame. Again go play Orion LOL.

Did. It's hard to deal with at times but certainly not banworthy. And you're missing something else: these "specific types" don't take away from the rest of the metagame because you still have the rest of the metagame. The neutral segment, remember? You don't have less, you just have the norm, plus a few extra things (that may or may not add) tacked on. In PS2's case in particular.

<snip>

I do not support picto, so let's ignore this for the moment...

Added depth isn't always beneficial as the above, both players must limit their options to avoid something that isn't random such as japes or hell even PTAD if you want to go that far. Raziek actually linked a video where the pikachu in question was actually hit by a klap trap while he was going for the ledge when he was still ABOVE the stage LOL.

Relink to that vid? Also, limiting your options to avoid something that isn't random happens in every set on every stage. How, you may ask? Adapting to the game. I limit my options by not overextending myself offstage to the point where I'm easily spiked. I limit my options by going for that risky punish instead of standing around and hoping to react to everything. And more to the point, even on a static stage like BF or FD, you still have exactly this. You don't go offstage because it's dangerous and because a non-random possibility of doom (your opponent gimping you) is present.

These hazards are generally considered "reactable" static and people use arguments to support their legalization. However this fails to take into consideration what ACTUALLY happens in a match.

If I made every effort to avoid a klap trap or car I would most certainly not be making every effort in fighting my opponent unlike brinstar in which getting hit by acid is a slap on the wrist what happens when I get hit by a klap trap? Or a car? I get punished with a STOCK LOL. You HONESTLY don't think that won't cause stage abuse? Or being forced to play on it a VERY specific way such as Rainbow cruise?

This "very specific way" is not necessarily bad. You seem to be pointing to certain instances where this "very specific way" is bad and pulling a faulty comparison. But let's not leave it at that... let's address the individual issue here...

-Klaptrap on Japes: it forces you to play a very specific way in every matchup: don't hang around the ledges when the klaptrap is coming. Not that hard! Some characters can abuse this factor (Falco being the big one I could name), but not to the extent that it is degenerate, and a smart player should know to avoid falco's CG in general, especially if the klaptrap is only a few seconds away. But even then, this "forced gameplay change" is only present in a very specific time frame, and only in a very specific position or against very specific characters. So for the purpose of banning, we can ignore this argument of "it doesn't add depth". "It's too good for Falco/DK" is still worth looking into, but honestly? I'm not buying it. Vids would really be nice.

-Cars on PTAD: Remember what I said about the changes on PS2 before? Or hell, what anyone will tell you about the changes on PS1? "Camp it out". The cars will only show up in very specific locations, and all but one of them (cars come from the right) have two equidistant safe zones and all but two (cars come from the left, finishing line) have an incredibly large warning time before the cars show up (in case you weren't able to memorize the speed of the cars and calculate their location from that). But here's the thing: how is this going to be degenerate? All you have is a few transformations where both players will usually camp on opposite sides of the stage until the transformation is over. How is this abusive? Almost nobody will put up with the risk involved in trying to force the opponent into the cars, especially because, you know, you have to approach the opponent to do it.

The problem is that most of these hazards don't really last that long. The game devolves to dancing around to it, and then resets to a neutral state after a moment! This is exactly what I'm talking about above in the PS2 comparison! The "rest" is still present, with very, very little detracted from it.

RC... it's a bit of an exception. But does it really detract from game depth? You play very differently on it from other stages, but it's truly just extensions of skills you already have in different directions. You need to deal with a temporary wall, work on your vertical spacing very carefully, and then deal with a walkoff and horizontal spacing... I'd argue that "typical" gameplay is not lost, but rather just split up and spread out a little bit. This is by no means a bad thing.

 

[MK26]

the pika wasnt above the stage when he got hit...he sdi'd up so that he would get spiked into the stage and survive rather than into the water and die

 

[Blacknight99923]

I looked at it with Ryu and we both agreed he was above the stage.

If he wasn't I'm curious as to why he wouldn't grab the ledge.

I could be wrong but in general when you SDI an attack that strong you generally move a bit MORE lol.

 

[Orion*]

I think Mansion is fine. If you want your opponent dead, break the house until there is only one section left. If there is only one section left and you want to tech to live, break the remaining section. If you see your opponent is doing this, prevent him from breaking the remaining section.

It's all strategic, and often one player wants to break the house while the other is trying to stop it from being broken. Players are being pitted against each other - seems competitive to me.

Thank you for running my timer breaking the house... also while you spend time doing that it's not like I'm going to just let you do it either. I'm going to carefully and patiently zone you, and the second you commit to breaking anything or put yourself in a crappy position I'm going to get in tiny bite sized hits further making the gap between my lead farther and farther.

Best part? Cool you broke the house. Time for me to either plank or air camp and force you to hard commit to hit me

M2K vs. Meep (scrooging time-out) was ****ing retardedly gay. Dojo vs. Gnes (Dair camping time-out) was super gay. So why did we learn to deal with that instead of, you know, banning it?

tactics =/= stages dont compare them
if you wanted to compare it to a specific tactic on a specific stage that's another thing but you didn't so I just don't see the point


As far as PS2 goes, I still have a lot more I have to do/learn as far as abusing that stage. While I am pretty good at it imo based on playing it a good bit I still have to think about it so my judgement is somewhat eh.
I don't know if it's banworthy by lets say debatable terms on a more liberal stagelist but I do think it really is just a stupid stage. Gimmick stadium :<

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

tactics =/= stages dont compare them
if you wanted to compare it to a specific tactic on a specific stage that's another thing but you didn't so I just don't see the point

EDIT: Wait never mind I'm talking about something totally different.

Why? When it comes to certain elements of gameplay, we're perfectly willing to man up and get better, but others, if they are "gay" on the surface, we ban out of hand! WTF?

 

[Life]

Thank you for running my timer breaking the house... also while you spend time doing that it's not like I'm going to just let you do it either. I'm going to carefully and patiently zone you, and the second you commit to breaking anything or put yourself in a crappy position I'm going to get in tiny bite sized hits further making the gap between my lead farther and farther.

Best part? Cool you broke the house. Time for me to either plank or air camp and force you to hard commit to hit me

Grats on having zero reaction time while I pick a random character and spam Jab 1 on the house.

Also, grats on running your LGL as you likely will if you plank through the twenty seconds until the house rezzes. And air camping for more than a few seconds don exits.

 

[fkacyan]

Grats on having zero reaction time while I pick a random character and spam Jab 1 on the house.

Also, grats on running your LGL as you likely will if you plank through the twenty seconds until the house rezzes. And air camping for more than a few seconds don exits.

Did somebody just tell Orion he couldn't camp them

oh man

OH MAN

ahahahahaahahahahahahahaha

 

[Orion*]

Grats on having zero reaction time while I pick a random character and spam Jab 1 on the house.

Also, grats on running your LGL as you likely will if you plank through the twenty seconds until the house rezzes. And air camping for more than a few seconds don exits.

wtf at me not having a reaction time LOL :rolling:

and ummmm.... who cares if i run the LGL? If you chase me off youre ********, and if I'm smart I can realllly use them sparingly- or at least long enough for the house to reappear. Then it's back to square one.

 

[Exdeath]

Grats on having zero reaction time while I pick a random character and spam Jab 1 on the house.

Also, grats on running your LGL as you likely will if you plank through the twenty seconds until the house rezzes. And air camping for more than a few seconds don exits.

Assuming that the mansion respawns every 20 seconds (I don't remember) and MK doesn't actually wait until you reach him on the other side of the stage before he grabs the ledge, and grabs the ledge every 7 seconds (very easily doable), that is three ledge grabs every time that the house is destroyed. Assuming a 25 ledge grab limit, that would require you to break the house more than 8 times.

This may seem reasonable, but you should take into account that A) you won't be able to simply run wild breaking the house, B) the time spent on actual game play and movement will make this figure much more difficult than it seems to be, and C) you will be whiffing a large number of extended attacks in front of Meta Knight in order to destroy the pillars.

 

[Life]

Fair enough then.

 

[sunshade]

Why does it matter that time outs are easy on luigi's mansion? Unless the improved ability to time characters out results in a single character decimating all others on this stage then matches hitting the 8 minute mark does not hurt anything (other than people's feelings).

I have not seen any evidence to say metaknight is broken on this stage, and I have heard people say that both DK and Olimar are huge threats on this stage (also without any evidence) which does nothing to help the claims of over centralization.

 

[Exdeath]

Why does it matter that time outs are easy on luigi's mansion? Unless the improved ability to time characters out results in a single character decimating all others on this stage then matches hitting the 8 minute mark does not hurt anything (other than people's feelings).

I have not seen any evidence to say metaknight is broken on this stage, and I have heard people say that both DK and Olimar are huge threats on this stage (also without any evidence) which does nothing to help the claims of over centralization.

It's generally regarded as being powerful for Olimar for many reasons, however there are two reasons in particular that matter. For one, Olimar already has plenty of decent stages, however he generally will go to a flat, easy to recover stage. His strongest stages is usually Castle Siege, as it is improbably difficult to relatively difficult on the second and third transformations, respectively, as well as giving Olimar the ability to unleash his highly damaging projectiles while shielded by the pillars from other characters' projectiles (Falco, Snake, etc.).

Luigi's Mansion is one of the largest ground stages in the game (the legal stages in particular), gives a near-permanent set of pillars that cover even larger distances (both vertical and horizontal) than Castle Siege's pillars that respawn and are not removed from the stage by a transformation. Add in his exceptional (IIRC Dnyce confirm?) Pikmin pluck on the stage along with ceiling combos, a secondary floor that is practically tailor made for Olimar to be able to cover some -- if not all (I don't remember) -- character's short hops on the second floor with his yellow Uair, Olimar's relative lack of hindrance on his killing power due to his ability to reliably kill both horizontally and vertically, and Olimar's whistle being even better at regaining stage control than usual.

For two, as I was saying at the start, this gives Olimar a second very powerful stage in addition to his already plentiful amount of decent stages and one super stage. This, in essence, creates a Meta Knight effect -- Olimar is guaranteed a super stage regardless of your character or stage ban, whereas now this isn't quite so true.

IMO, obviously.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You missed the point.
Even if it is or not a good/amazing/godtier stage for certain characters, doesn't prove it broken or degenerate...

 

[sunshade]

It's generally regarded as being powerful for Olimar for many reasons, however there are two reasons in particular that matter. For one, Olimar already has plenty of decent stages, however he generally will go to a flat, easy to recover stage. His strongest stages is usually Castle Siege, as it is improbably difficult to relatively difficult on the second and third transformations, respectively, as well as giving Olimar the ability to unleash his highly damaging projectiles while shielded by the pillars from other characters' projectiles (Falco, Snake, etc.).

Luigi's Mansion is one of the largest ground stages in the game (the legal stages in particular), gives a near-permanent set of pillars that cover even larger distances (both vertical and horizontal) than Castle Siege's pillars that respawn and are not removed from the stage by a transformation. Add in his exceptional (IIRC Dnyce confirm?) Pikmin pluck on the stage along with ceiling combos, a secondary floor that is practically tailor made for Olimar to be able to cover some -- if not all (I don't remember) -- character's short hops on the second floor with his yellow Uair, Olimar's relative lack of hindrance on his killing power due to his ability to reliably kill both horizontally and vertically, and Olimar's whistle being even better at regaining stage control than usual.

For two, as I was saying at the start, this gives Olimar a second very powerful stage in addition to his already plentiful amount of decent stages and one super stage. This, in essence, creates a Meta Knight effect -- Olimar is guaranteed a super stage regardless of your character or stage ban, whereas now this isn't quite so true.

IMO, obviously.

You do understand that my entire point was that we should not ban stages with theorycraft we should ban them with results. Its the same as how you may think someone is very likely to commit a crime but you don't actually convict them unless they have done something.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

>mfw sunshade gets sent to jail for conspiracy to commit murder

trollface.jpg

 

[sunshade]

"but I haven't done anything yet!"