Unintended Consequences Mafia: The Saga Concludes

[DtJ S2n]

I think it's possible the mod would do that just to throw us off.

And why does every role have to have "Unintended Consequences." Where are the Unintended Consequences in Gheb's role, for example? Or any v.townie role.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Not every role has to have it, but there certainly are unintended consequences in trying to metagame.

 

[Purple]

Vanilla townie doesn't have anything that can get screwed over, census taker only goes once.

unintended consequence of v.town is exactly what we've been discussing, their names are changed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Gheb: Then who killed Moronik?

My guess is that Scamp is lying and he did it.

Not every role has to have it, but there certainly are unintended consequences in trying to metagame.

How are you so "certain"? Have we seen anything that even implies that you could be right?

 

[Evil Eye]

Writing an exam very soon. Hopefully, I'll be able to do the... painfully long reread after and attack my suspect(s). This is going to suck long and hard.

If someone could, in the meantime, post a list documenting names, their claims, and their 2+ suspects in response to my question, that would be helpful. They've been spread across several pages.

 

[Nicholas1024]

How are you so "certain"? Have we seen anything that even implies that you could be right?

I'd say some of the wacky roles we've had claimed (and died) would illustrate the futility of trying to metagame, wouldn't you?

 

[Purple]

Virgilius - Vanilla Townie
Scamp - Vigilante
Roxy - Overeager Doctor (Nich/Macman)
Nicholas - Ordinary Citizen
Sold2 - Ordinary Civilian
Gheb_01 - Census Taker
Evil Eye - Watcher with eyes at the back of his head

I don't have FoS's

 

[Nicholas1024]

Virgilius - Vanilla Townie
Scamp - Vigilante
Roxy - Overeager Doctor (Nich/Macman)
Nicholas - Ordinary Citizen (Macman/Scamp)
Sold2 - Ordinary Civilian
Gheb_01 - Census Taker
Evil Eye - Watcher with eyes at the back of his head


Added my suspicions in.

 

[Virgilijus]

Virgilius - Vanilla Townie (Scamp/Macman)
Scamp - Vigilante
Roxy - Overeager Doctor (Nich/Macman)
Nicholas - Ordinary Citizen (Macman/Scamp)
Sold2 - Ordinary Civilian
Gheb_01 - Census Taker
Evil Eye - Watcher with eyes at the back of his head

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Virgilius - Vanilla Townie (Scamp/Macman)
Scamp - Vigilante
Roxy - Overeager Doctor (Nich/Macman)
Nicholas - Ordinary Citizen (Macman/Scamp)
Sold2 - Ordinary Civilian
Gheb_01 - Census Taker (Scamp/Virg)
Evil Eye - Watcher with eyes at the back of his head

 

[Scamp]

Did Macman stop playing? I know earlier I accused him of such, but he's been left off of every list.


Virgilius - Vanilla Townie (Scamp/Macman)
Scamp - Vigilante (Nich/Virg)
Roxy - Overeager Doctor (Nich/Macman)
Nicholas - Ordinary Citizen (Macman/Scamp)
Sold2 - Ordinary Civilian
Gheb_01 - Census Taker (Scamp/Virg)
Evil Eye - Watcher with eyes at the back of his head
Macman - Miller Poisoner

 

[Purple]

I just forgot to add him, apologies.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Macman's foses were Scamp and Nick, right? Would love to hear EE's suspects ...

 

[DtJ S2n]

Virgilius - Vanilla Townie (Scamp/Macman)
Scamp - Vigilante (Nich/Virg)
Roxy - Overeager Doctor (Nich/Macman)
Nicholas - Ordinary Citizen (Macman/Scamp)
Sold2 - Ordinary Civilian (Macman/Nich)
Gheb_01 - Census Taker (Scamp/Virg)
Evil Eye - Watcher with eyes at the back of his head
Macman - Miller Poisoner

Added my bit. Agreed with Gheb, would love to hear from EE.

I'm feeling better about Nich, although I'm still irked by our similar roles. Macman's roleclaim is bothering me more at this point.

 

[Evil Eye]

I'm still doing a comprehensive reread. I was making good headway when SWF decided to suck all the balls in the world.

Resuming.

 

[Kirby King]

Day 4 Vote Count
Scamp (1): Roxy
Nicholas1024 (1): Macman

Not voting: Sold2, Gheb_01, Nicholas1024, Scamp, Virgilijus, Evil Eye

It takes 5 out of 8 votes to lynch.

The deadline is Saturday, April 24 at 11:59:59 PM ET.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Just kill me, since everyone wants to.

pretty stupid that im on everyones list when im not even on the census. If i'm scum then either gheb was lying or there is another indy, or indy and me as mafia. Basically if i'm scum then there is almost guaranteed one more scum. And how like do you think that is? 6 non-town in a game of 16 ppl. I know we shouldn't meta but jeez

and no i haven't reread yet, I wanted to at one point but the site was being whack. I kind of don't have motivation to do it anymore.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Just kill me, since everyone wants to.

pretty stupid that im on everyones list when im not even on the census. If i'm scum then either gheb was lying or there is another indy, or indy and me as mafia. Basically if i'm scum then there is almost guaranteed one more scum. And how like do you think that is? 6 non-town in a game of 16 ppl. I know we shouldn't meta but jeez

and no i haven't reread yet, I wanted to at one point but the site was being whack. I kind of don't have motivation to do it anymore.

FYI, EE's Spidey-mafia had 7. And the mafia had a NK in that game.

 

[Evil Eye]

Eh, that game could have been won by any faction, but it wasn't well-balanced. I factored things like optimal strategy and stuff like that into balance and didn't give enough consideration to obvious things like worst case scenario. I'm glad people had fun playing that game, but it shouldn't be used for examples of balance... it needed to lose a few antitown roles or the padding of a few town roles.

Mac play the **** game. Nobody is out for your blood, so can the AtE's it's getting ridiculous. If this is gonna be your last game for a while than play with some dignity and scumhunt.


Everybody prepare for a big post.

 

[Evil Eye]

Alright, no butt-dragging here. I think Virg is the play. He's been my suspect for a while.

To get into this, though, we have to go deep into ancient history, when the one called Virg was once but a Dutchie named Guus.




Every single post Guus made gave me a bad vibe back in the day, but looking back on them with concrete information makes him look much, much worse. Note that my responses to individual remarks will be in orange, and I'll be color-coding the allignments of players as known.

Wow, that is a long deadline. Iffy comment. What's his point?

Xonar + Gheb is interesting to say the least. See above. What's his point? He's saying things, but he isn't saying things.

@ Nicholas, why do you want to lynch the mod? Last time I saw that, the person giving the hammer was modkilled. Don't feel like that again. This is the most substantial thing Guus says in the entire post, and it's nonsense metagaming, not exactly something that sticks one's neck out.

Cba voting now. And to top it off, he feels he has to justify his not voting

Wow. That's a heck of a scummy post. I mean, bear in mind that we were still RVSing, so it would have been very easy to duck in and bust some balls. But Guus comes into the game with this medium-sized and yet utterly vacuous post, in which he states flat observations but expounds upon no meaning. He just says things for the sake of saying them. There's too much poker face, and it feels manufactured.

Then he 'justifies' his not voting, which is especially strange, as we're under no obligation to do so.

Honestly, this is exactly how I'd expect a complete newbie antitown player to play an indy.



Then we have an interesting moment with Ryker:

Just vote Rockin. Quick bandwagon. We lynch him or we have something to talk about. Judging by that sign-up topic its a win-win.

Guus was nowhere to be found when FoS'd and expressed no interest in as much, but eight minutes after Ryker proposes a choo-choo train:

Vote: Rockin

Wow. That doesn't look so hot, now does it? I mean, here he is blindly sheeping a mafiat to wagon a townie.

I caught a mafiat in Samuel L. Jackson Mafia in almost an identical fashion -- I suggested that we hit at particular player for a flimsy reason, and someone dogpiled onto my vote in rapid succession. I was immediately suspicious, and this player ended up being lynched D1 -- and flipped mafia. Awesome.

The behavior and circumstances are incredibly similar.

Literally next post, Chibo votes for Ryker. This wagon doesn't exactly get off the ground, that's for sure.


Over a hundred posts later, Guus returns, speaking to KevinM

@Macman: At this stage if you had an ideal scum mate whom would that person be in this game and why. (The candidate has to be someone currently playing)

Why do you ask this question? It adds barely anything and would only give scum info on who to kill first. Point doesn't make sense.


Also, I too have requested replacement, mostly because this mafia is a bit out of my league. I don't get half of the post, so I go off and lurk and do something else. I think it'd be better if someone else played then .

I really can't see someone just finding a game "out of their league". Sorry guys, I don't have an attention span? I don't see these kind of johns from anyone that can type a coherent sentence, much less someone that has and does play mafia with any frequence. On the other hand I can absolutely see a newbie being overwhelmed by the pressures of being independent and turning tail -- I was an indy in my first mafia game, and I had fun, but I didn't like the feel of being completely alone in my goals. I wanted something more collaborative.


Kevmo takes specific note of Guus's dismissal of his question and says that he doesn't like how he did so. Thus Guus's player slot has, for the first time, attracted attention -- and it's from the mafia. A mafia that has a stalker. Worth noting, especially since his player slot is about to become a veteran.

And so ends the Guus Phase, and begins the Virg Phase.


Virg promises to catch up and come on in. Yay Virg! We love Virg. *shakes pom poms*

Vote: Chibo

I just reread (though admit to skimming EE's giant post and Nick's post with the Phoenix Wright gifs :urg) and haven't like a single post of yours.

While other people are discussing things, whether or not they are town or scum, they are talking and getting the game going. You did parrot a little snippet of an answer in what looks like just a way to keep your activity up. You admit to not keeping up with the game, need to reread, and then vote Roxy because you "don't like Roxy".

You're playing like a leech so far. Don't like it at all.

As for the other discussions, I don't have full opinions of them yet. I do get the feeling that Macman is town, but it's just a feeling.

Yeah, we were all on Chibo that day. However, striking a player for voting and saying they "don't like" someone is a bit off to me. People do that all the time. Kevmo does it in almost every game. I do it. Marshy does it. Virg was arriving at the same conclusion many of us were, but on a reread I find his rationale for this vote dubious.

He also offers a town read on Macman for no reason I can discern from the thread. Town reads are almost never a good thing, and the few scenarios I can think of for them didn't apply. Hell, Mac didn't even have a vote on him. It feels like incredibly subtle buddying, if anything. I'm always wary of people giving town reads and seeing them from a player I hold in high regard is a red flag for me.

In his next post Macman even deflects this, saying that he hasn't done anything yet at all.


Chibo elaborates on what Virg questioned of him, just the same, and provided examples of the type of behavior from Roxy he was referring to.

I am still suspicious of Chibo. I feel Mac is town solely because of watching his behavior a mod in the BRoom mafia game I hosted where he was mafia and despised every post.

He doesn't elaborate his suspicion of Chibo, explaining why it has not wavered, altered, or otherwise been revised as of Chibo's explanation for himself. I find this unusual. I may discard a defence on occasion, but if I don't reply to the individual defensive points -- which I try to do -- I at least explain that the defence offered does nothing to alleviate my concerns, and why. Here, he's just kind of... nestling on Chibo.


An unusual amount of talking about whether people are permitted to post lengthy, short, or whatever posts.



Xonar posts a list of people he views as inactives.

Not liking Roxy at all, but who I really want to hear now is one of the lurkers:
Moronik (Marshy/Ronike hydra) replaces Bunglefever
Pierre the Scarecrow (mr disappear)
Macman Wait, what?
ChiboSempai
Ryker
Scamp
The Paprika Killer
Fatchu (mr stopped mafia?)

egad thats pretty much everyone! So guys, what do you think about Gheb vs Nick? TvT? TvS? SvS? Why? What do you guys think about Roxy? Anything strange in EE's case?

I still don't like Chibo. All the other null posters have gathered my suspicion, but without post I can't base it on much.

Gheb v Nick could be TvT, but I wouldn't be surprised if one were scum (though I don't know which way I'd lean). EE presented a decent case for Roxy, but I'm still more suspicious of Chibo at the moment.

With this post Virg endorses Xonar's entire list, thus putting himself in a position where he is able to say he was suspicious of almost everyone in the game. This list includes three now-confirmed townies, including Virg's favorite suspect of D1. The list also includes two confirmed mafiats. Most baffling of all, it includes the person Virg has twice now upheld as his town read, and unbeseeched inquest.

He then fencesits on Gheb v Nick. It could be TvT, but he wouldn't be surprised if one was scum -- though he doesn't know which way he would lea. Illuminating. I made a good case about Roxy, but he'd still prefer Chibo.

Talk about loading your bases -- all he needs now is Hank Aaron! Virg has a precedent set here that would let him go at almost anyone in the game and it would look organic. Looking back, this post really rubs me the wrong way, and it rubs me in a way that suggests he wasn't in cahoots with Xonar and his brethren, too. Which is the kind of evil we're trying to smell.

As the Roxy wagon mounts, Virg chills on his porch with his brandy and his feet up on Chibo's *** for an ottoman. I'm starting to think he was trying to be off the lynch, and never expected momentum to gather around him. Especially not with Roxy hitting L/2 despite his "objections".


People lean on Macman, including KevinM.

Mac, you're not doing yourself any favors in my eyes though I still think there are better lynches. The fact that everyone piped down once mac showed up seems to me that mafia had attention on them and now, seeing an opportunity to hide, did so.

My vote still stays on Chibo.

This post confused the hell out of me. First he addresses Macman as though he has considered Macman a lynch at any point before now, despite declaring him town more than once. He also says that Mac isn't doing himself any favors, and yet this is the most active Mac has been all game, providing reads and everything else, and Virg's own post acknowledges that by acknowledging that "Mac showed up". Have cake | eat cake.

Furthermore, he feels that the quieting down of the game meats the mafia had attention on them and hid behind Mac? Then why did Virg treat Mac like a lynch (albeit a lower rung lynch) in this post? Why didn't Virg explore this further, and expound upon what he meant? Point to some leads? Why is his vote still on Chibo?

One vote and no discussion doesn't suggest "attention" to me, so surely the mafiat he thought was in the headlights couldn't have been Chibo? This post is just rife with inconsistency.


In twenty-four hours, the Chibo wagon explodes. Suddenly Virg's comfy southern man bandwagon is the primary contender, at L/2. Rockin sits one vote behind, at L-5.

I'm still waiting for some of the lurkers to post more (fatchu/etc), but am comfortable with my Chibo vote in the meantime.

I'm leaning towards EE being town. Less leaning with KevinM. I still need to dwell on Roxy/Gheb/Xonar.

A crucial time to be posting his opinion, but he's waiting for stuff. In the meantime he's comfortable with his Chibo vote. Gettin' broken record-y up in this he'a ho-down, suh. More town reads, and he needs to dwell on three players. Not a word about Rockin.

This becomes a central theme of Virg's play throughout the game. Stalling.


The wagons tie up, Virg posts the next day.

Could you put a little more thought into your posts, Mac? You're not doing yourself any favors in my eyes with these vague, one line posts. Granted, that's assuming you're town.

Phew I don't know if I'll have room for dessert after all that stuffing.

More stalling. This is not the proactive, bull-by-the-horns Virg I know.


The next day, Virg finally says something other than "I need to mull on _____" or "I'm fine with my vote on Chibo" (and derivatives)

while you might not be modkilled nor replaced (due to you being active), I rather have you rid of in terms of inactive players. Your amount of posts still does not amount to the many others. Not to mention you missed most of D1

Unvote Vote:Fatchu

You both admit that he is currently active and that he should be lynched for inactivity in the same sentence. While it is true he missed part of the Day, it is not as though he can't reread and still have opinions.

FoS: Rockin

Honestly, I think it's pretty self-explanatory that what Rockin meant to accuse Fatchu of was lurking, and that he's the lurker he wanted gone. As such, Virg has waited this long to take a stance on Rockin, and it looks opportunistic to me. Yes, I found it scummy of him to randomly change his mind because he wasn't getting his way, but this suspicion wasn't founded in a semantical nitpick.


Next day, things heat up. Rockin and Chibo both at L-3. I have a lil' tizzy with Fatchu, 'sno big.

I have a feeling petty insults won't lead to scum hunting and it would be best to leave them aside.

I am comfortable with a Rockin or Chibo lynch, though I would prefer Chibo (who became some what vocal before piping down again).

Half of this post is irrelevant to substantive discussion and the other half is Virg sitting on the fence. Has Virg gone on a limb once in this entire game? Everything he says seems so watered down and 'safe'.


P527-30 Virg plays activity police with Xonar and FoS's him. This is the ballsiest thing he's done, and the one time he's stuck himself out from the crowd. He did happen to pin mafia this time. But hey, I'd never buy an indy case for a player I respect if he didn't hit a bad guy now and then.

Chastizes chibo for johns and beseeches smart night actions from town, fair enough.


D2 commenceth:

I must re-evaluate my scum list.

This one's gonna take a while.

I would like to see KevMo post more.

I'm leaning away from Roxy being scum (posting significantly better today that tomorrow). Also feel Fatchu is town. Virg goes directly against this later on rather than steering us to more fruitful endeavors

Would like to see KevMo post more of his opinions. Can't make up my mind on TPK or Moronik.

He doesn't actually give us that scum list he's been reevaluating for some time. He gives us a bunch of town reads and says he would "like Kevmo to post more", and says he can't make up his mind on TPK or Moronik. What a nice fence to sit on -- the guy that has been trucking along the TPK lynch and TPK. And they're now confirmed T/S. This isn't the first time Virg is going to do this.


Things stall at L/2 between Roxy and Paprika.

i reread and id def rather go paprika over roxy. im annoyed that mac and virg are leaning town but dont do anything to save him

I think scum is loading up on either him or Roxy, but am unsure as to which. I'm a bit stymied about it.

Duuuude I told you I didn't have room for dessert oh god I feel gelatinous. This is the second time Virg has made a big claim about scum dogpiling and failed ot make anything of it.


More deadlock. Moronik asks the million dollar question.

virg who ARE you willing to lynch?

Right now the only people I wouldn't want to be lynched right now are: me, ee, macman (though he's playing like ****), and sold2. EE should still be more active despite being voteblocked. I was never too suspicious of Pierre and I think sold2 is doing a decent job as town.

Everyone else is up for lynch to me.

Moronik asks who Virg would want to lynch, Virg runs it through the spin machiens and answers the question with whom he wouldn't want to lynch. It answers the same question, sure, but it's also far more nonconfrontational... and far less proactive. Just throwing his hands up in the air and saying lead me Jesus, oohhhh I knows not the way!

The point about my activity is also fluff in relation to the question asked, unless he's saying I should be lynched if I didn't step it up, which I doubt. What was that about padding one's posts, again?


TPK goes all why not macman which was utterly transparent.

Because despite playing like ****, I think he's town; he's not feigning interest, he's just disinterested. While not helping scum hunt, he still contributes to a majority if town. Bad town is still town.

I agree.


Nic pokes at this logic, grasping it the way I'd expect Mongo from Blazing Saddles to hold fine china.

My reasoning, Nich, is that I just hosted a BRoom game in which Macman was scum. I got to see all of his posts and the thought behind his posts as mafia and, from my perspective, he seems to have a different mindset. Kev or EE could verify the game if need be.

It is by no means concrete proof as I admit he's playing like ****, but I'd rather lynch some one I believe has a higher possibility of scum.

More poking, this time from Sold2 as well.

It's not meta condemning some one, it's meta in terms of caution; there is a difference in degree. I said several times it is nothing concrete, just my opinion based on a recent mafia game I had great insight into his thinking of. It's still liable to change.

However, I do find it some one funny and interesting that my statement that I'm not voting for some one who currently has no votes from anyone has drawn your great suspicion. Granted, I like your spunk, but it's going in the wrong direction.

Fair enough, but it does feel like setting up the ultimate concession.


Then Xonar! Man, it's like he's all alone out there. Like he's independent from the rest of us.

I think you are understanding the intent of that line:

No one is stopping me from voting Macman (I don't know where you got that from). I have not voted for him and said it's because I think there are other people that are more scum like, though am stymied when it comes to which of them are worth my vote. Everyone else who has voted must agree to some extent because none of them have voted for Macman. Yes, votes can be for applying pressure as well, but no great pressure has been applied to him by any one.

Nich also feels other people are more suspicious than Macman, yet is irked by my literal statement of it. I find it a little funny.

So many posts in rapid succession, and so much tangential conversation. It's not Virg's fault the conversation took that direction, of course, but it catches my eye that if it's his rear end on the line he'll stay knee deep in the trenches, while in regards to any other courses of action he's content to sit back at the sidelines and observe.


Sold2 concedes and asks more questions. Oh hey, finally a scum list!

TPK, Moronik Return of the Moronik/Paprika fence!, and KevinM.

Though Nich is barking at me I think he's town going int eh wrong direction. Roxy has done him/her/itself better today in posting coherently. Most others are in a neutral area for me, though not quite town. Actually, everyone is in that area but the furthest in are the top 3.

Kevin: post something.

Virg's lack of proactive behavior and yet common brush-ins with mafiats is really starting to bother me. It's starting to feel like he's holding back. Or at the very least, playing it safe, as I said before.

paprika killer/roxy fit into this category

I'll give you Roxy may fit in. let me think about it.

My bad Virg. I just looked over who's still alive. Not wanting to lynch Macman makes sense now lol.
Why would you be more willing to lynch Moronik or Ryker over Macman?

For Ryker, it's not that I find him particularly scummy but more so that my intuition says Macman is town. However, as I post more and more about Macman he seems to be more and more absent.

Marshy/Ronike.... eh, I just don't know. He's just pushing for a lynch like Marshy always does; don't get much off of it.

Last point seems pretty weaksauce for a top three suspect, doesn't it?

kevin/mac have both been dealing with limited access since the day started i believe. just know theyre inactive as opposed to lurking

Twice in the past week I've hosted an Adventure Game over AIM that Macman participated in and he never mentioned anything about limited access.

The later one literally lasted until 2:30 AM PST; if he wanted to post here more he would have. EE can verify this (as much as another player can verify something).

The more I'm looking at this...

Virg's initial town reads had a lot to do with Macman's disinterest, and suddenly he is 'discovering' his degree of disinterest and... this is some kind of revelation?

It feels more to me like Virg slowly letting his wheel be greased onto a Macman lynch by loud townies that suspect him. Playing it safe and all.

In fact, it's funny that Virg doesn't have his vote on anyone at all during this time, despite Lynch 1 of a two lynch Day 2 being one of the safest possible times in a mafia game to place a vote. What exactly was he waiting for?

Even after Pap posted his fakeclaim...

Can Kiki update the vote count, please?

It is a good mafia safe claim day 1. If he is town, his night actions won't be much help at endgame. Holding onto him just for that seems unwise.

And yet, where's the vote? Where's the BEEF, man? Bases covered.

Vote: The Paprika Killer

Finally.

Honestly, I think Virg deduced long ago that Pap was scum and was seeing if the momentum was gonna shift toward a Macman lynch.

Lynch 2 starts and stuff. Things are discussed for a little while.

Roxy: you're posting like you want to be lynched. Nothing you've said in recent memory has given us any real insight or information.

Scamp: Thoughts on Roxy?

Macman: I swear to god if you don't get interested by the end of the Day I'm going to lynch you. If you're not going to play why sign up?

Virg threatens Roxy and Macman, while not actually saying he wants to lynch either of them.

It's not his activity that bothers me... it's how little he does, and how littles he tries to do.


Ooooh, but suddenly Kevmo is on Virg's junk. This is an absolute first in the entirety of the game. Desperation? Hardly. Kevin wasn't hitting a lot of scumdar at the time. I'm actually considering the possibility that Virg got stalked.

Remember what I said earlier about Guus drawing Kevin's attention immediately before being replaced by a competent player?

Hmmm!


Virg fires off an I'll show you!

It's not an empty threat.

aww yu guys lynched tpk

still vlaaaa stop caring about tpk

skimmed, see no point in really focusing much on...

didnt really think rockin was scum

whats ooping?

its ok, yu were gonna die anyways

nah, hammer, nothing bad will happen to you

or he can just die

Those are literally all of Mac's post for the past 8 days. That is all fluff. Initially, I knew he was playing ****ty but didn't realize to what degree. He's not helping and he's not voting; didn't vote during the last lynch and has done nothing so far; no applying pressure or even expressing opinions.

Vote: Macman

Despite his setting up the gymnastic mats earlier on, this 180 still looks exactly as abrupt as it is. And most interestingly of all, Virg isn't a player I think of as one that can be bullied or antagonized. Manipulated? Now there's a possibility. Or maybe Virg was baiting someone to call him a softy. Virg's contributions to mislynches (or potential mislynches) in this game have been carefully layered, gliding into them as smoothly as possible and with as many degrees of separation as possible. His switch on Macman is the most blatant, yet still smooth if you're not looking for it. I was.

It's also unusual to me that he contributed to Pap's lynch, and yet found nothing unusual about the turbo dogpile immediately following his vote, which was started by Pap himself.


P898: Suddenly Virg is in Kevmo's suspects, with Roxy and Mac.


He let's 'em go at it for a while.

plan is dumb because why lynch me and then clear me when my flip would clear me.

if anything govern paprika and don't lynch me. but then again, what if both me and paprika were both scum. Then you guys would have gotten played and wasted a whole day.

So far, your main defense is that you may be mafia, but TPK will be as well and we would have wasted a whole day lynching only one of you.

Mafia's only defense (and offense) is deceit, and all you are doing is throwing out numerous clashing and paranoid answers. My vote definitely stays.

This post gave me the heebie jeebies back then, and it only does moreso now. I thought Virg's argumentation during this entire debacle was incredibly spinning and twisting. He also makes no comments whatsoever about Pap's allignment, thus treating Pap's opportunistic vote like a nonfactor. Can't see Town Virg behaving in this way at all.


The next entire page is basically all lynch mac, all the time. Where was this kind of vehemently proactive play when Paprika and Roxy were in the chair? Chibo and Rockin? No, it's the convenient lynch nobody could possibly dish up blame for that interests Virg.


Here's my counterargument to Virg's many on this page. It still stands, in my opinion, unrefuted:

I don't buy the argument that Scumman would beseech the town for a direction to go in when the mafia team functions as a think tank. If I'm understanding your point about Mac picking Kevmo and then people "jump on" correctly, Virg, you're flipflopping. First you say that he is likely scum that wants to divert attention and so flails blindly, asking the town for direction.

Now, faced with the rebuttal that Macman would have mafiat brethren to ask for that point, rather than the town itself in open forum... you imply that that is what he did? What, he asked them who he could flip the town radar onto easily and they said to go after KevinM? Why didn't they give him some posts to point to, since Mac was tweeting about his status on rereading the thread as he went? Why didn't they give him an easier target, like Roxy?

I've seen you tunnel as town, Virg, but I've never seen you be inconsistent. Coincidentally, I've never seen you be scum.

And suddenly Kevmo is all up in some Virg lynchin'.

I would be fine with a KevinM lynch; he's also coasting and, as of recent, hasn't been adding much to discussion.

I'm still unsure about Roxy. Nich I'm leaning slightly towards mafia.

Virg waffled on Kevin for a reaaally long time. Meanwhile with some pressure on, he's not putting the screws to Macman anymore, and suddenly Nic is on his list of suspects for the first time ever. OMGUS much? (Nic just recently voted for him)


Ryker procrastinates himself right into a modkill.

Hmm; if mafia knew one of their buddies was not going to be able to post within 48 hours, there is a very good possibility one of them could have bussed him. Not saying they did, but the people that voted for him early on aren't clear.

Gotta go back through the thread. Does feel good to see first scum flip.

This jumps out to me as of interest, since the only people I remember getting at Ryker are Moronik (confirmed town) and myself (I know I'm town). Not that it matters, because indies still scumhunt. Just the same, it made me uneasy, especially since Virg has been giving me the specific indy vibe of sidling up against mafia.

While I'm not sold on Fatchu, I'd prefer a lynch to a no lynch at this point.

Vote: fatchu

What changed from when Virg firmly stated that Fatchu was town? I contributed to this mislynch, but Fatchu bugged me from the start of the game, and I'd found instances that looked suspicious on a reread. Virg on the other hand is just having another phantom opinion change.


Virg then leans on Roxy about computer access or whatever.


Pap, Fatchu, and xonar all die. Virg is voteblocked. What a twist!

I ask Virg what the deal is with his account of being VB'd.

It is a paraphrase, otherwise it would go against the rules. However, it is a faithful paraphrase.

I am at work now and can't say everything I want to right now. I'll respond fully afterwards.

Kay.


...


Two days later, Virg comes back, after Kevin has slammed me with a pretty garbage attack.

Hmmm. I don't know what to think of EE's last post, but the same can be said for KevinM. Need to think more about this.

Curious. When did I become one of his phantom suspects? When did Kevin lower on his suspects? Why did he take Kevin's argument seriously at all? You have to admit this looks pretty bad, since Kevin tried to discourage lynching from the census, and I was the one who pushed for that focus, and thus the one he attacked for as much.

I think Virg has sat on one too many fences here, and with this one he looks overly, methodically, dubiously careful. Maybe he had deduced our allignments and was lining up his cards for either a mislynch or a mafia lynch leading to protown points. Maybe he didn't have a clue and just wanted either one of us out because we'd turned the spotlight on him. I don't think there's protown motivation behind that post, that's for sure.


Two days later, Kevin and I have another spat and I wreck up the joint [/Nixon]

Was KevinM town or mafia in Monster Mafia?

I agree with you to a great extent EE; I've been suspicious of KevMo for a while. I am also willing to lynch Macman for a lot of reasons I have listed before.

Ronike: I'm just hunting for people that are playing anti town. Maybe it's too simplistic, but that's my strategy.

Oh? Seemed like he was trying to gauge where the sheep were headed before deciding which of us two he was suspicious of.


Next post is a nice little prod-dodge telling Roxy to post more content.

Then

My suspicion of [color=redKevMo[/color] is fairly straight forward; he has slid by so far because people know he is a good player, yet he has contributed almost nothing to this game. One line posts saying some one can go but not stating why give me the feel of Indy, though I wouldn't say it's concrete.

On rereading me this bothers me, since Kevmo actually pushed a lot of lynches, including one on mafia (Paprika). This feels like evidence after the verdict -- hell, Virg himself has taken much softer stances on things than Kev did throughout the game.

THAT MEANS THAT ALL THE OTHER PLAYERS, WHO VOTED FOR TPK YESTERDAY ARE NOT MAFIA.

Day 2 Final Vote Count (Lynch 1)
The Paprika Killer (8): Scamp, Moronik, Xonar, KevinM, Sold2, Virgilijus

Request Votecount

Not liking the fact that I'm OK with like half the game getting lynched (Macman, KevMo, Nick, Virg).

@Nick

I'm not saying that you should be lynched or anything. I just think that we'd lose nothing if you get NKed. Same for Virg.

So you're saying you are fairly certain I am not mafia, don't "want to see me lynched or anything", but would be perfectly fine with me dying? These seem somewhat contradictory unless you are just going for one indy kill (in a pool of 6) over a potential indy/mafia kill (in a pool of 3).[/quote]

Emphasis mine, I think it's telling that when Gheb's dorsal fin starts to circle Virg he points toward the Three. Yet he wasn't discouraging a KevinM lynch, which would not be within the Three.

Not that he pushed a Kevmo lynch, either. In fact, ironically given his D2 complaint, I'd say Virg did a lot less in a voteblocked state on D3 than I did in as much on D2.

Then after Kev's lynch and clear fakeclaim:

I reiterate what Macman said; why would you tell us tracker without results?

I guess Virg needed a piece of the finger-wagglin' pie.





For the most part, that brings us up to today.

In summary, I have found Virg to be coasting, inconsistent with his opinions and suspicions, with either being plucked from thin air or gearshifted without warning. I've disliked his overly safe play and have yet to see him stick his neck out in away that helped the town, with the possible exception of yelling at Xonar late D1.

The way Virg has been playing this game is honestly exactly how I'd expect to see him play a scum or indy role. His minimal conversation when mafiats (Ryker, KevinM, Pap) were in the chair, I think, is telling -- both of his objectives and the methodology he's applying to this game.

Indy-hunting is an absolute nightmare, but I think the pieces fit together better for Virg to be playing for the bad guys than the home team.


Vote: Virgilijus

 

[Nicholas1024]

First off, EE is win. However, I'm going to wait for Virg's rebuttal before making any votes.

 

[DtJ S2n]

Wow. EE you're ridiculous. Nich has the right idea to wait.

Also gives me terrible memories of newbie 3.

 

[Virgilijus]

Alright, no butt-dragging here. I think Virg is the play. He's been my suspect for a while.

To get into this, though, we have to go deep into ancient history, when the one called Virg was once but a Dutchie named Guus.




Every single post Guus made gave me a bad vibe back in the day, but looking back on them with concrete information makes him look much, much worse. Note that my responses to individual remarks will be in orange, and I'll be color-coding the allignments of players as known.

Wow, that is a long deadline. Iffy comment. What's his point?

Xonar + Gheb is interesting to say the least. See above. What's his point? He's saying things, but he isn't saying things.

@ Nicholas, why do you want to lynch the mod? Last time I saw that, the person giving the hammer was modkilled. Don't feel like that again. This is the most substantial thing Guus says in the entire post, and it's nonsense metagaming, not exactly something that sticks one's neck out.

Cba voting now. And to top it off, he feels he has to justify his not voting

Wow. That's a heck of a scummy post. I mean, bear in mind that we were still RVSing, so it would have been very easy to duck in and bust some balls. But Guus comes into the game with this medium-sized and yet utterly vacuous post, in which he states flat observations but expounds upon no meaning. He just says things for the sake of saying them. There's too much poker face, and it feels manufactured.

Then he 'justifies' his not voting, which is especially strange, as we're under no obligation to do so.

Honestly, this is exactly how I'd expect a complete newbie antitown player to play an indy.

And what do you expect me to say to this? The player I replaced, in the RVS, says something non-concrete. How is this suspicious of my play?

Then we have an interesting moment with Ryker:

Just vote Rockin. Quick bandwagon. We lynch him or we have something to talk about. Judging by that sign-up topic its a win-win.

Guus was nowhere to be found when FoS'd and expressed no interest in as much, but eight minutes after Ryker proposes a choo-choo train:

Vote: Rockin

Wow. That doesn't look so hot, now does it? I mean, here he is blindly sheeping a mafiat to wagon a townie.

I caught a mafiat in Samuel L. Jackson Mafia in almost an identical fashion -- I suggested that we hit at particular player for a flimsy reason, and someone dogpiled onto my vote in rapid succession. I was immediately suspicious, and this player ended up being lynched D1 -- and flipped mafia. Awesome.

The behavior and circumstances are incredibly similar.

And, if you look at my voting history in what boils down to every mafia game I have played, I am very slow to vote. this is how I play. Who is to say Guus is like Roxy; both as fickle as the wind. No, that reasoning only works when you want some one to come off as mafia. Meta-gaming a player like that isn't much grounds for indicting my play.

Literally next post, Chibo votes for Ryker. This wagon doesn't exactly get off the ground, that's for sure.


Over a hundred posts later, Guus returns, speaking to KevinM

@Macman: At this stage if you had an ideal scum mate whom would that person be in this game and why. (The candidate has to be someone currently playing)

Why do you ask this question? It adds barely anything and would only give scum info on who to kill first. Point doesn't make sense.


Also, I too have requested replacement, mostly because this mafia is a bit out of my league. I don't get half of the post, so I go off and lurk and do something else. I think it'd be better if someone else played then .

I really can't see someone just finding a game "out of their league". Sorry guys, I don't have an attention span? I don't see these kind of johns from anyone that can type a coherent sentence, much less someone that has and does play mafia with any frequence. On the other hand I can absolutely see a newbie being overwhelmed by the pressures of being independent and turning tail -- I was an indy in my first mafia game, and I had fun, but I didn't like the feel of being completely alone in my goals. I wanted something more collaborative.

You expect me to answer why the guy I replaced felt overwhelmed? Not only that, you are using that reasoning to indict me in a post through sever meta-gaming? Metagaming that the only way you can see him too nervous, Day 1, with no one near lynch as of yet, is if he is indy. That is a stretch and you know it.

Kevmo takes specific note of Guus's dismissal of his question and says that he doesn't like how he did so. Thus Guus's player slot has, for the first time, attracted attention -- and it's from the mafia. A mafia that has a stalker. Worth noting, especially since his player slot is about to become a veteran.

And so ends the Guus Phase, and begins the Virg Phase.


Virg promises to catch up and come on in. Yay Virg! We love Virg. *shakes pom poms*

Vote: Chibo

I just reread (though admit to skimming EE's giant post and Nick's post with the Phoenix Wright gifs :urg) and haven't like a single post of yours.

While other people are discussing things, whether or not they are town or scum, they are talking and getting the game going. You did parrot a little snippet of an answer in what looks like just a way to keep your activity up. You admit to not keeping up with the game, need to reread, and then vote Roxy because you "don't like Roxy".

You're playing like a leech so far. Don't like it at all.

As for the other discussions, I don't have full opinions of them yet. I do get the feeling that Macman is town, but it's just a feeling.

Yeah, we were all on Chibo that day. However, striking a player for voting and saying they "don't like" someone is a bit off to me. People do that all the time. Kevmo does it in almost every game. I do it. Marshy does it. Virg was arriving at the same conclusion many of us were, but on a reread I find his rationale for this vote dubious.

So you're saying I did something that you, Marshy, KevMo and several other good players do, but for some reason this time it's bad rationale. That again feels like you're grasping for something that isn't there.

He also offers a town read on Macman for no reason I can discern from the thread. Town reads are almost never a good thing, and the few scenarios I can think of for them didn't apply. Hell, Mac didn't even have a vote on him. It feels like incredibly subtle buddying, if anything. I'm always wary of people giving town reads and seeing them from a player I hold in high regard is a red flag for me.

Currently in the thread, most people are of the opinion that Gheb is town, but you haven't thrown any suspect on them.

In his next post Macman even deflects this, saying that he hasn't done anything yet at all.

And we still don't know whether Macman is protown or antitown, so I don't see how this is anything but trying to make things look stacked against me.

Chibo elaborates on what Virg questioned of him, just the same, and provided examples of the type of behavior from Roxy he was referring to.

I am still suspicious of Chibo. I feel Mac is town solely because of watching his behavior a mod in the BRoom mafia game I hosted where he was mafia and despised every post.

He doesn't elaborate his suspicion of Chibo, explaining why it has not wavered, altered, or otherwise been revised as of Chibo's explanation for himself. I find this unusual. I may discard a defence on occasion, but if I don't reply to the individual defensive points -- which I try to do -- I at least explain that the defence offered does nothing to alleviate my concerns, and why. Here, he's just kind of... nestling on Chibo.

Interesting, considering you were the 4th person (out of 8) on the Chibo wagon and said this:

Wow. Chibo waits that long to talk and offers up such a generic pile of crap stitched together by old mafia saws you'd think it came off a conveyor belt at a factory that mass produces generic piles of crap.

Vote: Chibo

An unusual amount of talking about whether people are permitted to post lengthy, short, or whatever posts.



Xonar posts a list of people he views as inactives.

Not liking Roxy at all, but who I really want to hear now is one of the lurkers:
Moronik (Marshy/Ronike hydra) replaces Bunglefever
Pierre the Scarecrow (mr disappear)
Macman Wait, what?
ChiboSempai
Ryker
Scamp
The Paprika Killer
Fatchu (mr stopped mafia?)

egad thats pretty much everyone! So guys, what do you think about Gheb vs Nick? TvT? TvS? SvS? Why? What do you guys think about Roxy? Anything strange in EE's case?

I still don't like Chibo. All the other null posters have gathered my suspicion, but without post I can't base it on much.

Gheb v Nick could be TvT, but I wouldn't be surprised if one were scum (though I don't know which way I'd lean). EE presented a decent case for Roxy, but I'm still more suspicious of Chibo at the moment.

With this post Virg endorses Xonar's entire list, thus putting himself in a position where he is able to say he was suspicious of almost everyone in the game. This list includes three now-confirmed townies, including Virg's favorite suspect of D1. The list also includes two confirmed mafiats. Most baffling of all, it includes the person Virg has twice now upheld as his town read, and unbeseeched inquest.

it is day 1. You admitted earlier in this very post you do NOT like people saying others are townies, yet all of a sudden when I say I am suspicious of most (no flips yet, no night actions, no confirmed dead roles), this is suspect of me? You're contradicting yourself.

He then fencesits on Gheb v Nick. It could be TvT, but he wouldn't be surprised if one was scum -- though he doesn't know which way he would lea. Illuminating. I made a good case about Roxy, but he'd still prefer Chibo.

If memory serves me right, you were the one making the jokingly Christmas colored posts about why Chibo was playing scummy and needed to die. Making yourself out to be firmly against his lynch when you weren't is deceitful to those not willing to go back and check.

Talk about loading your bases -- all he needs now is Hank Aaron! Virg has a precedent set here that would let him go at almost anyone in the game and it would look organic. Looking back, this post really rubs me the wrong way, and it rubs me in a way that suggests he wasn't in cahoots with Xonar and his brethren, too. Which is the kind of evil we're trying to smell.

SO saying Day 1 I don't have many reads (and supposedly the one read I had -which you agreed to Day 1-) is now suddenly very telling of my indy behavior? That doesn't make sense coming from your similar, supposedly townie position day 1.

As the Roxy wagon mounts, Virg chills on his porch with his brandy and his feet up on Chibo's *** for an ottoman. I'm starting to think he was trying to be off the lynch, and never expected momentum to gather around him. Especially not with Roxy hitting L/2 despite his "objections".

So, you get upset about me not being confident and fence sitting, yet, when I believe Chibo is scum and keep my vote on him, suddenly it's just me "making sure I was off the lynch and hoping momentum would go the other way"? This also is a contradiction in your accusations.

People lean on Macman, including KevinM.

Mac, you're not doing yourself any favors in my eyes though I still think there are better lynches. The fact that everyone piped down once mac showed up seems to me that mafia had attention on them and now, seeing an opportunity to hide, did so.

My vote still stays on Chibo.

This post confused the hell out of me. First he addresses Macman as though he has considered Macman a lynch at any point before now, despite declaring him town more than once. He also says that Mac isn't doing himself any favors, and yet this is the most active Mac has been all game, providing reads and everything else, and Virg's own post acknowledges that by acknowledging that "Mac showed up". Have cake | eat cake.

It was Day 1 and, as I have said numerous times and with my actions/scumlists, I was suspicious of everyone; of scourse he is a possible lych candidate. People can not do themselves a favor by talking (Macman admits this, as at several points later in the thread admits he played poorly enough to deserve a lynch). Mac showed up in that he was posting. Whether he was playing strong or I thought Chibo was still a better lynch is independent of that.

Furthermore, he feels that the quieting down of the game meats the mafia had attention on them and hid behind Mac? Then why did Virg treat Mac like a lynch (albeit a lower rung lynch) in this post? Why didn't Virg explore this further, and expound upon what he meant? Point to some leads? Why is his vote still on Chibo?

So you're meta'ing me by saying "Why didn't I ask suspicions about him there? Hound him like a dog?" I could ask the same about how you never voiced any suspicions about me earlier and instead waited 40 pages. Meta'ing like that is throwing darts in the dark and you know it.

One vote and no discussion doesn't suggest "attention" to me, so surely the mafiat he thought was in the headlights couldn't have been Chibo? This post is just rife with inconsistency.


In twenty-four hours, the Chibo wagon explodes (with EE being one of the prime backers). Suddenly Virg's comfy southern man bandwagon is the primary contender, at L/2. Rockin sits one vote behind, at L-5.

I'm still waiting for some of the lurkers to post more (fatchu/etc), but am comfortable with my Chibo vote in the meantime.

I'm leaning towards EE being town. Less leaning with KevinM. I still need to dwell on Roxy/Gheb/Xonar.

A crucial time to be posting his opinion, but he's waiting for stuff (And the times that you posted "Hold on; rereading. Will post later " is suddenly exempt from this type of accusation?. In the meantime he's comfortable with his Chibo vote. Gettin' broken record-y up in this he'a ho-down, suh. More town reads, and he needs to dwell on three players. Not a word about Rockin.

This becomes a central theme of Virg's play throughout the game. Stalling.


The wagons tie up, Virg posts the next day.

Could you put a little more thought into your posts, Mac? You're not doing yourself any favors in my eyes with these vague, one line posts. Granted, that's assuming you're town.

Phew I don't know if I'll have room for dessert after all that stuffing.

More stalling. This is not the proactive, bull-by-the-horns Virg I know.

And what is the "bull-by-the-horns" Virg you know? Batmafia? No, I sat back there until the absolute end of the game. Disney Mafia? No, didn't do that either. SWFMafia? Replaced in there and died the same day during a night kill before doing anything. Starfox mafia? Oh, the game where I voted for you day 2 on the second post and never let off (just like I did with Chibo) and I turned out to be right? No, I've been playing the same in my voting. I told the thread when I joined I wouldn't be posting novels and I've followed through on that until you Moby ****'d me in this post. Claiming I am playing differently without actually stating how it is (examples of me playing bulls by the horn? How is chibo not bulls by the horn?) is just smearing thoughts on me.


The next day, Virg finally says something other than "I need to mull on _____" or "I'm fine with my vote on Chibo" (and derivatives)

while you might not be modkilled nor replaced (due to you being active), I rather have you rid of in terms of inactive players. Your amount of posts still does not amount to the many others. Not to mention you missed most of D1

Unvote Vote:Fatchu

You both admit that he is currently active and that he should be lynched for inactivity in the same sentence. While it is true he missed part of the Day, it is not as though he can't reread and still have opinions.

FoS: Rockin

Honestly, I think it's pretty self-explanatory that what Rockin meant to accuse Fatchu of was lurking, and that he's the lurker he wanted gone. As such, Virg has waited this long to take a stance on Rockin, and it looks opportunistic to me. Yes, I found it scummy of him to randomly change his mind because he wasn't getting his way, but this suspicion wasn't founded in a semantical nitpick.

Randomly change my mind? My vote is still on Chibo and I never took it off. I didn't jump any ship. I can't point out what appears to me to be a contradiction? No, I can and I did. At the time apparently it apparently didn't strike you enough to bring it up yet some how on a reread all ready looking at me it it becomes suspicious.

Next day, things heat up. Rockin and Chibo both at L-3. I have a lil' tizzy with Fatchu, 'sno big.

Ah, so it's okay for you to get into a fight with another town (like me and Rockin), but for some reason it's big suspicion when it actually is me and rockin.

I have a feeling petty insults won't lead to scum hunting and it would be best to leave them aside.

I am comfortable with a Rockin or Chibo lynch, though I would prefer Chibo (who became some what vocal before piping down again).

Half of this post is irrelevant to substantive discussion and the other half is Virg sitting on the fence. Has Virg gone on a limb once in this entire game? Everything he says seems so watered down and 'safe'.

How is it irrelevant? Insulting people isn't scum hunting and is in the rules not to do. I was also the first on the Chibo wagon and I stuck with it. Since when does "going out on a limb" on THE FIRST DAY LYNCH (if there is even a thing as that on the first day) mean some one is more likely town? Makes no sense to me.

P527-30 Virg plays activity police with Xonar and FoS's him. This is the ballsiest thing he's done, and the one time he's stuck himself out from the crowd. He did happen to pin mafia this time. But hey, I'd never buy an indy case for a player I respect if he didn't hit a bad guy now and then.

SO any time I happen to do town some good you just say "Oh, well, if he's an indy he could still do that." So from that standpoint if I help lynch a townie day 1 I'm either indy or mafia and if I help lynch a mafia I'm indy. Is that an unbiased rationalizing of my play? Yes.

Chastizes chibo for johns and beseeches smart night actions from town, fair enough.


D2 commenceth:

I must re-evaluate my scum list.

This one's gonna take a while.

I would like to see KevMo post more.

I'm leaning away from Roxy being scum (posting significantly better today that tomorrow). Also feel Fatchu is town. Virg goes directly against this later on rather than steering us to more fruitful endeavors

Would like to see KevMo post more of his opinions. Can't make up my mind on TPK or Moronik.

He doesn't actually give us that scum list he's been reevaluating for some time. He gives us a bunch of town reads and says he would "like Kevmo to post more", and says he can't make up his mind on TPK or Moronik. What a nice fence to sit on -- the guy that has been trucking along the TPK lynch and TPK. And they're now confirmed T/S. This isn't the first time Virg is going to do this.

Correct me, but did I ever say I was going to post my scum list? No, I said re-evaluate. And on that list I couldn't make my mind up on TPK or Moronik. It's easy to throw hindsight 20/20 on them, but at the time I was having a hard time on it due to how Marshy plays (I have a hard time reading that guy [Starfox Mafia if you want to see an example]). Not having a clear suspect but not wanting a no lynch, I would vote for TPK and I did.

Things stall at L/2 between Roxy and Paprika.

i reread and id def rather go paprika over roxy. im annoyed that mac and virg are leaning town but dont do anything to save him

I think scum is loading up on either him or Roxy, but am unsure as to which. I'm a bit stymied about it.

Duuuude I told you I didn't have room for dessert oh god I feel gelatinous. This is the second time Virg has made a big claim about scum dogpiling and failed ot make anything of it.

So I admit to being confused about who is the scum, and because I don't make anything of my confusion apparently that's my fault? Huh?

More deadlock. Moronik asks the million dollar question.

virg who ARE you willing to lynch?

Right now the only people I wouldn't want to be lynched right now are: me, ee, macman (though he's playing like ****), and sold2. EE should still be more active despite being voteblocked. I was never too suspicious of Pierre and I think sold2 is doing a decent job as town.

Everyone else is up for lynch to me.

Moronik asks who Virg would want to lynch, Virg runs it through the spin machiens and answers the question with whom he wouldn't want to lynch. It answers the same question, sure, but it's also far more nonconfrontational... and far less proactive. Just throwing his hands up in the air and saying lead me Jesus, oohhhh I knows not the way!

So you admit I answered the question, but apparently it's far less productive because I answered it contra-positively (which is logically fine) and then make a dramatic comment about something that has no relation to what I'm talking about. So far, all your case has been about is "Virg is tentative early game; scummy/indy. But when he does make a move, even if I agreed with it at the time, it points indy"

The point about my activity is also fluff in relation to the question asked, unless he's saying I should be lynched if I didn't step it up, which I doubt. What was that about padding one's posts, again?


TPK goes all why not macman which was utterly transparent.

Because despite playing like ****, I think he's town; he's not feigning interest, he's just disinterested. While not helping scum hunt, he still contributes to a majority if town. Bad town is still town.

I agree.


Nic pokes at this logic, grasping it the way I'd expect Mongo from Blazing Saddles to hold fine china.

My reasoning, Nich, is that I just hosted a BRoom game in which Macman was scum. I got to see all of his posts and the thought behind his posts as mafia and, from my perspective, he seems to have a different mindset. Kev or EE could verify the game if need be.

It is by no means concrete proof as I admit he's playing like ****, but I'd rather lynch some one I believe has a higher possibility of scum.

More poking, this time from Sold2 as well.

It's not meta condemning some one, it's meta in terms of caution; there is a difference in degree. I said several times it is nothing concrete, just my opinion based on a recent mafia game I had great insight into his thinking of. It's still liable to change.

However, I do find it some one funny and interesting that my statement that I'm not voting for some one who currently has no votes from anyone has drawn your great suspicion. Granted, I like your spunk, but it's going in the wrong direction.

Fair enough, but it does feel like setting up the ultimate concession.


Then Xonar! Man, it's like he's all alone out there. Like he's independent from the rest of us.

I think you are understanding the intent of that line:

No one is stopping me from voting Macman (I don't know where you got that from). I have not voted for him and said it's because I think there are other people that are more scum like, though am stymied when it comes to which of them are worth my vote. Everyone else who has voted must agree to some extent because none of them have voted for Macman. Yes, votes can be for applying pressure as well, but no great pressure has been applied to him by any one.

Nich also feels other people are more suspicious than Macman, yet is irked by my literal statement of it. I find it a little funny.

So many posts in rapid succession, and so much tangential conversation. It's not Virg's fault the conversation took that direction, of course, but it catches my eye that if it's his rear end on the line he'll stay knee deep in the trenches, while in regards to any other courses of action he's content to sit back at the sidelines and observe.

SO let me get this straight: you agreed with my stance on macman at the time, people ask me why I am STICKING MY NECK OUT SAYING THAT (note: earlier you claimed I was playing so passively) and when I answer, you find it my fault for not immediately moving on. They were asking my reasoning behind it; ignoring that would have essentially shown there was no grounds for my stance. But because I DID HAVE ONE (one you agreed with) I could plant down and say why. I did and people aid "Oh, okay." It was my opinion and I stood by it, yet some how you're trying to spin that to make it look like guilt on my part.

Sold2 concedes and asks more questions. Oh hey, finally a scum list!

TPK, Moronik Return of the Moronik/Paprika fence!, and KevinM.

Though Nich is barking at me I think he's town going int eh wrong direction. Roxy has done him/her/itself better today in posting coherently. Most others are in a neutral area for me, though not quite town. Actually, everyone is in that area but the furthest in are the top 3.

Kevin: post something.

Virg's lack of proactive behavior and yet common brush-ins with mafiats is really starting to bother me. It's starting to feel like he's holding back. Or at the very least, playing it safe, as I said before.

All right, let's look at this. I admit the whole day I was having trouble with TPK and Moronik; how is me still saying I have that problem some how indicative of my being indy/scum? Would saying absolutely nothing and leaving both off my list some how be better? Also, having two mafia on my short list is some how a negative for me? How does that make sense? You hold up your town beacon by saying you were suspicious of KevMo or TPK or whomever, yet apparently when do it raises suspicion. Explain that one to me.

paprika killer/roxy fit into this category

I'll give you Roxy may fit in. let me think about it.

My bad Virg. I just looked over who's still alive. Not wanting to lynch Macman makes sense now lol.
Why would you be more willing to lynch Moronik or Ryker over Macman?

For Ryker, it's not that I find him particularly scummy but more so that my intuition says Macman is town. However, as I post more and more about Macman he seems to be more and more absent.

Marshy/Ronike.... eh, I just don't know. He's just pushing for a lynch like Marshy always does; don't get much off of it.

Last point seems pretty weaksauce for a top three suspect, doesn't it?

Being suspicious of some one just pushing for lynches without much substance behind it isn't poor reasoning; constant bandwagoning plays to indy/mafia knowing lynchee is town. Yes, Marshy does this all the time, but that doesn't exclude him from being indy/mafia by doing it.

kevin/mac have both been dealing with limited access since the day started i believe. just know theyre inactive as opposed to lurking

Twice in the past week I've hosted an Adventure Game over AIM that Macman participated in and he never mentioned anything about limited access.

The later one literally lasted until 2:30 AM PST; if he wanted to post here more he would have. EE can verify this (as much as another player can verify something).

The more I'm looking at this...

Virg's initial town reads had a lot to do with Macman's disinterest, and suddenly he is 'discovering' his degree of disinterest and... this is some kind of revelation?

It feels more to me like Virg slowly letting his wheel be greased onto a Macman lynch by loud townies that suspect him. Playing it safe and all.

In fact, it's funny that Virg doesn't have his vote on anyone at all during this time, despite Lynch 1 of a two lynch Day 2 being one of the safest possible times in a mafia game to place a vote. What exactly was he waiting for?

And, as I have stated numerous times and have proven many more, I am very slow to vote and slow to unvote. Look at Chibo. Look at you and Marshy in Starfox Mafia. That is how I play. The fact you claim to know my style but haven't picked up on the one aspect of my playstyle I am the most vocal about puts your claims of "the virg I know" in mafia games to doubt.

Even after Pap posted his fakeclaim...

Can Kiki update the vote count, please?

It is a good mafia safe claim day 1. If he is town, his night actions won't be much help at endgame. Holding onto him just for that seems unwise.

And yet, where's the vote? Where's the BEEF, man? Bases covered.

I reiterate I am slow to lynch and slow to turn (the opposite of Roxy). You can go back and look at all of my games (all of which I am also town for comparisons sake) and see I do the same thing. Only exception would be my OMGUS for Kiki in SLJ mafia though that lasted about an hour at some god forsaken time in the morning. If anything, I am proving how consistent my playstyle is.

Vote: The Paprika Killer

Finally.

Honestly, I think Virg deduced long ago that Pap was scum and was seeing if the momentum was gonna shift toward a Macman lynch.

A I said earlier, I would rather go for a lynch of some one I wasn't sure about than a no lynch. Meta'ing that some how my voting for a guy who was in my scum short list earlier in the day to make me seem antitown is grasping at straws.

Lynch 2 starts and stuff. Things are discussed for a little while.

Roxy: you're posting like you want to be lynched. Nothing you've said in recent memory has given us any real insight or information.

Scamp: Thoughts on Roxy?

Macman: I swear to god if you don't get interested by the end of the Day I'm going to lynch you. If you're not going to play why sign up?

Virg threatens Roxy and Macman, while not actually saying he wants to lynch either of them.

It's not his activity that bothers me... it's how little he does, and how littles he tries to do.

I can threaten people without explicitly stating I want them lynched, just like I can hold lynching opinions until I feel they will best suit the town (just like you are claiming to do in this post; apparently you were suspicious of me all along and just waited till now to say it)

Ooooh, but suddenly Kevmo is on Virg's junk. This is an absolute first in the entirety of the game. Desperation? Hardly. Kevin wasn't hitting a lot of scumdar at the time. I'm actually considering the possibility that Virg got stalked.

Remember what I said earlier about Guus drawing Kevin's attention immediately before being replaced by a competent player?

Hmmm!


Virg fires off an I'll show you!

It's not an empty threat.

aww yu guys lynched tpk

still vlaaaa stop caring about tpk

skimmed, see no point in really focusing much on...

didnt really think rockin was scum

whats ooping?

its ok, yu were gonna die anyways

nah, hammer, nothing bad will happen to you

or he can just die

Those are literally all of Mac's post for the past 8 days. That is all fluff. Initially, I knew he was playing ****ty but didn't realize to what degree. He's not helping and he's not voting; didn't vote during the last lynch and has done nothing so far; no applying pressure or even expressing opinions.

Vote: Macman

Despite his setting up the gymnastic mats earlier on, this 180 still looks exactly as abrupt as it is. And most interestingly of all, Virg isn't a player I think of as one that can be bullied or antagonized. Manipulated? Now there's a possibility. Or maybe Virg was baiting someone to call him a softy. Virg's contributions to mislynches (or potential mislynches) in this game have been carefully layered, gliding into them as smoothly as possible and with as many degrees of separation as possible. His switch on Macman is the most blatant, yet still smooth if you're not looking for it. I was.

As of my post, every person I voted for you voted for; claiming my "potential" mislynch of the same people you voted for makes no sense when you are claiming you are town. I did turn on Mac (for reasons he later fully admitted were sufficient to get him acknowledging that he would understand if we lynched him) after a long prod by other players. It went something like this:

Virg thinks Macman is town. Lots of people ask him why. he defends for a long time, then realizes they have some points. Virg then leans towards macman as scum.

How is that suspicious? It wasn't an instantaneous flip like you claim. I did think long about it and some of the thing I was meta'ing about more than using in game examples weren't holding up as well as they originally were. When the fors outweighed the againsts, I voted for him like I said I would in my post saying I would. I'm being consistent here.

It's also unusual to me that he contributed to Pap's lynch, and yet found nothing unusual about the turbo dogpile immediately following his vote, which was started by Pap himself.

Are you really meta'ing me for not commenting on something that happened in the game when no one asked me about it? Just because I didn't that casts great suspicion on me? Not buying it.


P898: Suddenly Virg is in Kevmo's suspects, with Roxy and Mac.

I would point out you also have Macman and Roxy on your town lists at the moment.


He let's 'em go at it for a while.

plan is dumb because why lynch me and then clear me when my flip would clear me.

if anything govern paprika and don't lynch me. but then again, what if both me and paprika were both scum. Then you guys would have gotten played and wasted a whole day.

So far, your main defense is that you may be mafia, but TPK will be as well and we would have wasted a whole day lynching only one of you.

Mafia's only defense (and offense) is deceit, and all you are doing is throwing out numerous clashing and paranoid answers. My vote definitely stays.

This post gave me the heebie jeebies back then, and it only does moreso now. I thought Virg's argumentation during this entire debacle was incredibly spinning and twisting. He also makes no comments whatsoever about Pap's allignment, thus treating Pap's opportunistic vote like a nonfactor. Can't see Town Virg behaving in this way at all.

We also didn't know for certain TPK's alignment (and actually still don't). Also, if it was so spinning, why didn't you say something instead of sitting back? Some how if you don't speak up about something it's fine but when I don't it's great cause for suspicion.


The next entire page is basically all lynch mac, all the time. Where was this kind of vehemently proactive play when Paprika and Roxy were in the chair? Chibo and Rockin? No, it's the convenient lynch nobody could possibly dish up blame for that interests Virg.

Earlier you criticized me for stubbornly holding onto Chibo as a lynch and now you're saying I didn't? What? I told you earlier I was tossed up between TPK and Moronik; everything I've done has been consistent with that. You blame me for the convenient lynch, but I ask; in your opinion, wasn't TPK the convenient lynch? Yes. he was because in your mind he was scummy. I just posted why I thought Macman was scummy and voted for him because of it. it was not "convenient" because other people would join, it was "convenient" to me because all the things mac was doing conveniently pointed to scum. aying I was doing it solely for a bandwagon is just meta'ing out of nowhere.

Here's my counterargument to Virg's many on this page. It still stands, in my opinion, unrefuted:

I don't buy the argument that Scumman would beseech the town for a direction to go in when the mafia team functions as a think tank. If I'm understanding your point about Mac picking Kevmo and then people "jump on" correctly, Virg, you're flipflopping. First you say that he is likely scum that wants to divert attention and so flails blindly, asking the town for direction.

Now, faced with the rebuttal that Macman would have mafiat brethren to ask for that point, rather than the town itself in open forum... you imply that that is what he did? What, he asked them who he could flip the town radar onto easily and they said to go after KevinM? Why didn't they give him some posts to point to, since Mac was tweeting about his status on rereading the thread as he went? Why didn't they give him an easier target, like Roxy?

I've seen you tunnel as town, Virg, but I've never seen you be inconsistent. Coincidentally, I've never seen you be scum.

I would also point out one mafiat had all ready died from not posting in time; mafia had all ready had communication difficulties (not to mention some were on the other side of the world for time differences). I posted this in the thread for how that could be the case. Yes, afterwards when Kevmo flipped scum it essentially crushed the case, but that's hindsight. It wasn't logically disproven at this point.

And suddenly Kevmo is all up in some Virg lynchin'.

I would be fine with a KevinM lynch; he's also coasting and, as of recent, hasn't been adding much to discussion.

I'm still unsure about Roxy. Nich I'm leaning slightly towards mafia.

Virg waffled on Kevin for a reaaally long time. Meanwhile with some pressure on, he's not putting the screws to Macman anymore, and suddenly Nic is on his list of suspects for the first time ever. OMGUS much? (Nic just recently voted for him)

have you ever known me to OMGUS? Outside of Kiki once in SLJ, I never have.

Also, you say you put up a good reason Macman isn't town, I slowly sway to it and then some how that is indicative of me being antitown? Run that by me again. I'm listening to other people and their arguments and, when sufficient, they change my mind. How is that anti-town?

Ryker procrastinates himself right into a modkill.

Maifa has bad communication, something I was motioning towards with the Macman fiasco.

Hmm; if mafia knew one of their buddies was not going to be able to post within 48 hours, there is a very good possibility one of them could have bussed him. Not saying they did, but the people that voted for him early on aren't clear.

Gotta go back through the thread. Does feel good to see first scum flip.

This jumps out to me as of interest, since the only people I remember getting at Ryker are Moronik (confirmed town) and myself (I know I'm town). Not that it matters, because indies still scumhunt. Just the same, it made me uneasy, especially since Virg has been giving me the specific indy vibe of sidling up against mafia.

I said something was a possibility. It was. What is wrong with that?

While I'm not sold on Fatchu, I'd prefer a lynch to a no lynch at this point.

Vote: fatchu

What changed from when Virg firmly stated that Fatchu was town? I contributed to this mislynch, but Fatchu bugged me from the start of the game, and I'd found instances that looked suspicious on a reread. Virg on the other hand is just having another phantom opinion change.

Couple of things: my stance of lynching rather than no lynching stays. Second: earlier in this post you got upset because "I didn't like Chibo's play" (not verbatim, but in point) and used that as an antitown clue yet you admit to doing it here for another now confirmed town. Inconsistent method. There was no opinion change; I never said I thought fatchu was mafia and I stood by it; I also stood by lynch over no lynch. I said it as I posted. How is that indicative of me waffling?

Virg then leans on Roxy about computer access or whatever.


Pap, Fatchu, and xonar all die. Virg is voteblocked. What a twist!

I ask Virg what the deal is with his account of being VB'd.

It is a paraphrase, otherwise it would go against the rules. However, it is a faithful paraphrase.

I am at work now and can't say everything I want to right now. I'll respond fully afterwards.

Kay.

What is the point of posting this; it doesn't have to do with anything.

...


Two days later, Virg comes back, after Kevin has slammed me with a pretty garbage attack.

Hmmm. I don't know what to think of EE's last post, but the same can be said for KevinM. Need to think more about this.

Curious. When did I become one of his phantom suspects? When did Kevin lower on his suspects? Why did he take Kevin's argument seriously at all? You have to admit this looks pretty bad, since Kevin tried to discourage lynching from the census, and I was the one who pushed for that focus, and thus the one he attacked for as much.

When do you say I was one of your phantom suspects before this post? Does everyone have to warn people about a change in opinion before posting the change of opinion?

I think Virg has sat on one too many fences here, and with this one he looks overly, methodically, dubiously careful. Maybe he had deduced our allignments and was lining up his cards for either a mislynch or a mafia lynch leading to protown points. Maybe he didn't have a clue and just wanted either one of us out because we'd turned the spotlight on him. I don't think there's protown motivation behind that post, that's for sure.

I have played carefully because I haven't had many good reads. Would you prefer me to spout off a bunch of Roxy-esque posts and backtrack on ideas that aren't fully formed? No. If I don't know something I'm going to say I don't know; I've been consistent with that all game. making some grand theory behind me plotting a movie plot type of downfall to town is for all intents and purposes impossible (knowing more than the entirety of town, who I wouldn't know has potential invest roles?)

Two days later, Kevin and I have another spat and I wreck up the joint [/Nixon]

Was KevinM town or mafia in Monster Mafia?

I agree with you to a great extent EE; I've been suspicious of KevMo for a while. I am also willing to lynch Macman for a lot of reasons I have listed before.

Ronike: I'm just hunting for people that are playing anti town. Maybe it's too simplistic, but that's my strategy.

Oh? Seemed like he was trying to gauge where the sheep were headed before deciding which of us two he was suspicious of.

meta gaming ideas into my head some more? You know those aren't solid accusations; it's all ethereal.

Next post is a nice little prod-dodge telling Roxy to post more content.

SO now asking Roxy to stop spamming one liners with no meaning is a hit against me? Explain.

Then

My suspicion of [color=redKevMo[/color] is fairly straight forward; he has slid by so far because people know he is a good player, yet he has contributed almost nothing to this game. One line posts saying some one can go but not stating why give me the feel of Indy, though I wouldn't say it's concrete.

On rereading me this bothers me, since Kevmo actually pushed a lot of lynches, including one on mafia (Paprika). This feels like evidence after the verdict -- hell, Virg himself has taken much softer stances on things than Kev did throughout the game.

I pushed the Chibo vote and then had difficulties with TPK/Moronik. KevMo plays a lot like Marshy in that they are lynch happy and have a tendency to basically just post who they are lynching and not why. KevMo was doing that most of the game and it was reason for suspicion on him (as was it on Moronik, which led to my TPK/Moronik debacle). Pushing a TPK bus but still posting in that same insubstantial drew my suspicion; it was no evidence after the verdict deal.

THAT MEANS THAT ALL THE OTHER PLAYERS, WHO VOTED FOR TPK YESTERDAY ARE NOT MAFIA.

Day 2 Final Vote Count (Lynch 1)
The Paprika Killer (8): Scamp, Moronik, Xonar, KevinM, Sold2, Virgilijus

Request Votecount

Not liking the fact that I'm OK with like half the game getting lynched (Macman, KevMo, Nick, Virg).

@Nick

I'm not saying that you should be lynched or anything. I just think that we'd lose nothing if you get NKed. Same for Virg.

So you're saying you are fairly certain I am not mafia, don't "want to see me lynched or anything", but would be perfectly fine with me dying? These seem somewhat contradictory unless you are just going for one indy kill (in a pool of 6) over a potential indy/mafia kill (in a pool of 3).[/quote]

Emphasis mine, I think it's telling that when Gheb's dorsal fin starts to circle Virg he points toward the Three. Yet he wasn't discouraging a KevinM lynch, which would not be within the Three.

Not that he pushed a Kevmo lynch, either. In fact, ironically given his D2 complaint, I'd say Virg did a lot less in a voteblocked state on D3 than I did in as much on D2.

Insubstantial claim that can't really be backed up. I had suspicions of KevMo and couldn't vote. I'd all ready admitted I had mixed reads on the previous lynch. I had said I had been suspicious of KevMo for a long time (and had him in my scum list); taking him out of my suspects just because he wasn't in the Three would be fickle (and ultimately wrong). I don't see how that is negative.

Then after Kev's lynch and clear fakeclaim:

I reiterate what Macman said; why would you tell us tracker without results?

I guess Virg needed a piece of the finger-wagglin' pie.


So I reiterate that macman made a good point AFTER the lynch and that too is some how against me? Doesn't make sense to me.


For the most part, that brings us up to today.

In summary, I have found Virg to be coasting, inconsistent with his opinions and suspicions, with either being plucked from thin air or gearshifted without warning. I've disliked his overly safe play and have yet to see him stick his neck out in away that helped the town, with the possible exception of yelling at Xonar late D1.

I've shown how I have been consistent while most of your accusations are grasping at straws. I started the Chibo lynch day 1 and stayed on it, admitted bad reads on day 2 with TPK/Moronik, was voteblocked Day 3 and here we are. What part of that scenario is me blatantly not picking some one to vote for the sake of being on the fence

The way Virg has been playing this game is honestly exactly how I'd expect to see him play a scum or indy role. His minimal conversation when mafiats (Ryker, KevinM, Pap) were in the chair, I think, is telling -- both of his objectives and the methodology he's applying to this game.

Horrible, horrible logic. I have never been scum in a game (save the replacement into TMNT mafia that I replaced otu of the same day). To say "you imagine I would play like this if I were scum" is utter nonsense. You have quoted no examples of past games I've been in to show how I've supposedly "played differently", just said that I have. I haven't (look at StarFox mafia where I latched my vote onto you and started a wagon, had a poor read on Marshy and almost killed him, suspected marc at the end but didn't completely stick my neck out after him because I wasn't sure and marshy's unvote ended up saving the day. That's almost the same exact style I've been having here and I was town then just as I'm town now).

Indy-hunting is an absolute nightmare, but I think the pieces fit together better for Virg to be playing for the bad guys than the home team.


Vote: Virgilijus

This post reminds me of you in SLJ Mafia; good intentions but wrong tree. it feels like you thought "Hmmm, maybe Virg is indy" before rereading and then picked out everything that maybe, possibly, in some nearly inplausible world, could be a sign of me being anti-town. I did the same thing to Marshy in StarFox Mafia and a similar thing happened; he was town. At the time I thought it all lined up and patted myself on the back, but the thing is no one plays perfect and if you want to find mistake you're going to. the only difference between there and now is that Marshy was vig and could prove he was town; I'm vanilla and can't.

I still think EE's town and my suspects are still as is. This post wasted an hour of my life and after the game I'm going to throw EE off a cliff and he wouldn't be able to pull himself back together again. (a few of you will know what that means)

 

[Virgilijus]

I just realized because I didn't put EE's post in quotes, it looks like I voted for myself...

Unvote if there is any confusion.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

ninja baby

 

[~ Gheb ~]

EE, what do you think is Virg's allignment?

 

[Scamp]

I'll be honest here. I read through EE's post and Virg's defense, and now my brain is mush. There is simply way too much to even attempt to analyze and consider.

So I tried to go by feel. At first I didn't like Virg's defenses. Too many counter-questions and WIFOM. (Note, this doesn't include the posts where Virg wasn't Virg. I just dismissed that part.) Then, in the middle, he picked up and I really liked a lot of his defense. Finally, at the end, it felt like a mixed bag of good and bad. Still too many counter-question WIFOMs for defense but also some things where I felt he was sincere.

Final verdict: I don't ****ing know. Is it possible to get a tl;dr version from both of you? Like maybe the best points and counter-points? Because seriously, I have no desire to even think about all that stuff again.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Although Virg does make a few good points, ultimately I don't think his defense is satisfactory. Here's my main problems with it.

1) Your reasoning for voting Chibo:

It just isn't enough. You did the exact same things that you accused Chibo of doing. You called him out on not keeping up, while you admitted just a couple of sentences earlier that you skimmed a couple of the longer posts. You also called him out on voting Roxy because he "didn't like Roxy", but your main reasoning in that post for voting him was that you didn't like a single post of his.

2) Your willing to lynch lists:
More than once, you stated you'd be willing to lynch basically half the game/everyone except a few people. That just really rubs me the wrong way. Add your reluctance to vote, and it just strikes me as someone that's really "playing it safe". I don't know your meta, but it reminds me too much of how I play as scum. (ie: Voting for the safe suspects, not posting a lot, etc.) As a side note, you're 5/8 on the postcount list of people still alive. Not at the bottom, but not exactly a shaker-and-mover either. Aside from the one rapid-fire post on Macman, you never really presented a solid reason to vote someone.


3) Your quick turn-around on Macman.
Even though you posted to set up the change, EE is right in that it is just too abrupt. And I don't like the way you dealt with it. It wasn't "Hey guys, I realized I was wrong about Macman, here's why:", but more trying to get everyone to forget you held a different opinion.

Can you refute these points?

 

[Virgilijus]

Although Virg does make a few good points, ultimately I don't think his defense is satisfactory. Here's my main problems with it.

1) Your reasoning for voting Chibo:

It just isn't enough. You did the exact same things that you accused Chibo of doing. You called him out on not keeping up, while you admitted just a couple of sentences earlier that you skimmed a couple of the longer posts. You also called him out on voting Roxy because he "didn't like Roxy", but your main reasoning in that post for voting him was that you didn't like a single post of his.

Yet before the lynch you posted him on your willing to lynch list:

Since we're getting close to deadline, my updated willing-to-lynch list:

1) Rockin
Self-explanatory. Rockin dead yet? (Hey, it works for Marshy!)
2) Roxy
Where did Roxy go, anyway? It's like she disappeared as soon as she dropped out of the spotlight. Not a good sign.
3) Chibo
Again, self-explanatory.
4)Paprika
Seriously man, step up your game. Out of the possible inactive lynches, you'd be my first choice.

The you say EE sums it all up in this post which ends in his vote of Chibo. Saying my reasoning is weak while backing Chibo's lynch doesn't make sense.

2) Your willing to lynch lists:
More than once, you stated you'd be willing to lynch basically half the game/everyone except a few people. That just really rubs me the wrong way. Add your reluctance to vote, and it just strikes me as someone that's really "playing it safe". I don't know your meta, but it reminds me too much of how I play as scum. (ie: Voting for the safe suspects, not posting a lot, etc.) As a side note, you're 5/8 on the postcount list of people still alive. Not at the bottom, but not exactly a shaker-and-mover either. Aside from the one rapid-fire post on Macman, you never really presented a solid reason to vote someone.

I've all ready said what I did; Chibo was posting all fluff and when I faced it to him he backed away and we lynched him (the other main target that day was Rockin, who was also town, so don't give me crap about being wrong on the Day 1 lynch). Day 2 I admitted several times about not knowing whether TPK or Moronik was scum. I still had 2/3 scum on my scumlist and voted for scum by the end of day. Day 3 I was voteblocked and couldn't really stick my head out because my ability to add pressure via vote was stymied. I could say I would have pressured so and so, but that's all stuff I can't prove so I'm not going to even go there. In a game, there is always going to be people in the middle in terms of posting; that's just math. Not everyone is going to be Roxy and post what he could say in one well thought out post in three or four. When I had something to say, I said it. When I didn't, I didn't. When I didn't and deadline approached I told people I was digesting what was going on because that was also true.

3) Your quick turn-around on Macman.
Even though you posted to set up the change, EE is right in that it is just too abrupt. And I don't like the way you dealt with it. It wasn't "Hey guys, I realized I was wrong about Macman, here's why:", but more trying to get everyone to forget you held a different opinion.

I did post that the more I though about the opposition's points I realized they were stronger than mine. Did I really have to repost everything we just said into one post to say that? I don't think I need to: we had just been talking about all the fors and againsts the previous pages. If you were reading along, you would know what they were. If I were trying to get everyone to forget my opinion, why have I consistently talked about my second opinion of macman as incorrect? If anything, I haven't shied away from it or tried to brush it off.

Can you refute these points?

I did. But something more sticks out here. I understand the nature of EE's long accusatory post; he's done it before in other games and that's just how he plays being detective in real life. Your post, on the other hand, feels to be trying to follow in the grove he just tried to dig for my lynch. Your forgetfulness in how you agreed with the Chibo lynch and then accusing me of my reasoning for it being poor looks bad on you.

The other two points I talked about (at length) in the response to EE's post. I can't help but get the impression that you saw EE's gigantic attacking post, thought it was a post to shelter behind and get a lynch going, and then backed it without realizing you don't have much to back it with. I reiterate that you forgetting your position on Chibo strikes me odd and like that of indy: you didn't need to remember because at the time everyone agreed and a lynch that wasn't you happened.

FoS Nich for those reasons.

I am also thinking Scamp is less likely a lynch target; I didn't like that he said "lynch me if you want" since if you're town, there is no real reason for advocating your own lynch. But outside of that and the fact we have to look at vigs, his play has been very town in my opinion (both in terms of voting and, claimed vig kill, and posts being thought out.)

 

[Nicholas1024]

@Virg
Let me spell this out for you with a nice clear example.


Person A:
I think Person X is scum. *gives huge EE-like post of why and votes.*

Person B:
Yeah, let's lynch him! Mafia needs a mislynch! *also votes person X*

Mod:
*posts lynch scene, Person X flips town*

Then, despite person A being on the Person X mislynch, he'd be perfectly justified in attacking person B for his scummy reasoning. Get the picture?

Just replace Person A with me (or EE), Person B with you, and Person X with Chibo, and you've got it. Your reasoning wasn't quite as scummy as the one in my example, but it still is scummy, and it was quite different from both EE's and my reasoning for voting Chibo. That leaves us perfectly clear to attack you for it.

As regarding points 2 and 3, I know those came up in EE's argument and your counter-argument, but I wasn't satisfied (and still am not) with how you addressed them.

Although your points about voting for mafia would usually have merit, the problem is that we're INDY hunting. Therefore, there are no connections to town or mafia.

Finally, regarding Macman... I'm just not satisfied. You flipped from having him as town to having him as scum pretty quickly, right after you came under fire for it. The gut feeling I get from re-reading your posts back then is "scum backing off".

Oh, and by the way, nice "Oh-my-gosh-you-suck" FOS. If you followed this game AT ALL, you'd notice that EE's giant posts usually alter my scumlist quite a bit. You never had a problem with it before. Why now? Oh wait, I know. It's because I'm targeting YOU.

Vote: Virg

 

[Purple]

nich did it for me

vote : Virg

 

[Kirby King]

Day 4 Vote Count
Virgilijus (2): Evil Eye, Nicholas1024
Scamp (1): Roxy
Nicholas1024 (1): Macman

Not voting: Sold2, Gheb_01, Scamp, Virgilijus

It takes 5 out of 8 votes to lynch.

The deadline is Saturday, April 24 at 11:59:59 PM ET.

 

[Nicholas1024]

@mod

Roxy just voted Virg.

 

[Kirby King]

Day 4 Vote Count
Virgilijus (2): Evil Eye, Nicholas1024
Scamp (1): Roxy
Nicholas1024 (1): Macman

Not voting: Sold2, Gheb_01, Scamp, Virgilijus

It takes 5 out of 8 votes to lynch.

The deadline is Saturday, April 24 at 11:59:59 PM ET.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Okay...

@Roxy

Would you please try unvoting and then voting Virg?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Vote Virg

Lines up with my suspicions. It's either him or Scamp.

 

[Scamp]

Actually Nich is doing it for me too, but in the opposite direction. I liked the three points he brought up, but then Virg replied and Nich replied back. When he replied back it produced some curiosities in his arguments that I'll bring up later. Right now the focus is on Virg.

I think Virg is at L-1 right now. No one hammer him yet, there's still discussion I'd like to see.

Namely, one point that Nich did bring up that it looks like Virg avoided is that Virg is doing the same things that he accused Chibo of doing. You addressed the part about the argument being weak, but you didn't comment on this.

 

[Virgilijus]

@Virg
Let me spell this out for you with a nice clear example.


Person A:
I think Person X is scum. *gives huge EE-like post of why and votes.*

Person B:
Yeah, let's lynch him! Mafia needs a mislynch! *also votes person X*

Mod:
*posts lynch scene, Person X flips town*

Then, despite person A being on the Person X mislynch, he'd be perfectly justified in attacking person B for his scummy reasoning. Get the picture?

Just replace Person A with me (or EE), Person B with you, and Person X with Chibo, and you've got it. Your reasoning wasn't quite as scummy as the one in my example, but it still is scummy, and it was quite different from both EE's and my reasoning for voting Chibo. That leaves us perfectly clear to attack you for it.

First off, I was the one that really started the Chibo wagon and you two followed me. As such, I would be person A in your scenario and you would be person B. Then, by your reasoning what I did doesn't pin anything on me. But then in the end because we're hunting for indy's it still incriminates me. Doesn't make sense.

As regarding points 2 and 3, I know those came up in EE's argument and your counter-argument, but I wasn't satisfied (and still am not) with how you addressed them.

Although your points about voting for mafia would usually have merit, the problem is that we're INDY hunting. Therefore, there are no connections to town or mafia.

If they have no connections, why are you so focused on the Day 1 lynch I started, the Day 2 lynch I hammered, and the Day 3 lynch I was blocked form voting in? How do those three add up to me being an indy? I've voted for the same amount of town and mafia as EE (I believe we were both on the Rockin lynch), yet the indy voting trail only points to me? That doesn't make sense.

Finally, regarding Macman... I'm just not satisfied. You flipped from having him as town to having him as scum pretty quickly, right after you came under fire for it. The gut feeling I get from re-reading your posts back then is "scum backing off".

Oh, and by the way, nice "Oh-my-gosh-you-suck" FOS. If you followed this game AT ALL, you'd notice that EE's giant posts usually alter my scumlist quite a bit. You never had a problem with it before. Why now? Oh wait, I know. It's because I'm targeting YOU.

Vote: Virg

Think about what you just said there: EE attacked me 100x more than you AND voted for me and I sternly believe he is town, though misguided. I see you hanging on the coattails and backing some weaker points and it looks like something an indy would do if he feels momentum shifting my way. I take not of this and FoS you. Not vote: FoS. I FoS and say I don't like your post. How is that a FoS? Am I not allowed to think antitown is attacking me in a post and call them out on it? I never said I had a problem with EE affecting your scum list. Point it out to me if I accidentally did. I have a problem with your weak, supposedly complimenting claims trying to dig my trench deeper; they are flimsy and I've stated as such. If I do think that is the case, I'm more than entitled to say I disagree.

I'm not upset about people talking about me or asking me questions; ask to your heart's content. But don't think I'm angry because you are attacking me. Any ire I have about your posts is the reasoning behind your attacking me being inconsistent and based on false presumptions.

 

[Purple]

The nicholas - Kiki dialogue is absolutely hilarious.

re-reading before i seal the deal.

 

[Purple]

alrighty
unvote
vote : virg

depending on the flip i will either be voting nich/scamp