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Unintended Consequences Mafia: The Saga Concludes

#HBC | Mac

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was that the hammer?

I've yet to read anything. I got part of the way through EE's post but couldn't finish and was gonna do it later.

but from what I saw, it looked like EE was mafia hunting and not indyhunting which we should be doing.
 

Kirby King

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Day 4 Vote Count
Virgilijus (4): Evil Eye, Nicholas1024, Gheb_01, Roxy
Nicholas1024 (1): Macman

Not voting: Sold2, Scamp, Virgilijus

It takes 5 out of 8 votes to lynch.

The deadline is Saturday, April 24 at 11:59:59 PM ET.
 

#HBC | Mac

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also, am i the only one who thinks its weird that EE talks and people immediately follow?
 

Nicholas1024

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First off, I was the one that really started the Chibo wagon and you two followed me. As such, I would be person A in your scenario and you would be person B. Then, by your reasoning what I did doesn't pin anything on me. But then in the end because we're hunting for indy's it still incriminates me. Doesn't make sense.
I seriously didn't think anyone could be that dense.

Person A: Townie with legit, non-scummy reasoning.
Person B: Anti-town with scummy reasoning.

Get it yet?

If they have no connections, why are you so focused on the Day 1 lynch I started, the Day 2 lynch I hammered, and the Day 3 lynch I was blocked form voting in? How do those three add up to me being an indy? I've voted for the same amount of town and mafia as EE (I believe we were both on the Rockin lynch), yet the indy voting trail only points to me? That doesn't make sense.
My point is that you voting for mafia by no means clears you. The only thing to do is look at your posts and the content within them, not any connections with mafia you may or may not have formed. And those don't paint you in such a favorable light.

Think about what you just said there: EE attacked me 100x more than you AND voted for me and I sternly believe he is town, though misguided. I see you hanging on the coattails and backing some weaker points and it looks like something an indy would do if he feels momentum shifting my way. I take not of this and FoS you. Not vote: FoS. I FoS and say I don't like your post. How is that a FoS? Am I not allowed to think antitown is attacking me in a post and call them out on it? I never said I had a problem with EE affecting your scum list. Point it out to me if I accidentally did. I have a problem with your weak, supposedly complimenting claims trying to dig my trench deeper; they are flimsy and I've stated as such. If I do think that is the case, I'm more than entitled to say I disagree.
I attacked you, and you responded with a counter-attack and an FOS. That's basically the definition of Oh-my-gosh-you-suck, except you FOS'd instead of voting.

I'm not upset about people talking about me or asking me questions; ask to your heart's content. But don't think I'm angry because you are attacking me. Any ire I have about your posts is the reasoning behind your attacking me being inconsistent and based on false presumptions.
You can't say my reasoning is inconsistent if multiple people have agreed with it.

@Macman
Agreed with using more of the day before the lynch, there's still discussion to be had here.
 

Evil Eye

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I think Virg is the indy. Multiple godfathers is pretty much ********.

I disagree that my post "looks like mafia-hunting" wholeheartedly. The reason I point out the allignments of the players he comments on or interacts with is because it does paint an unusual picture. Furthermore, with a player of Virg's intelligence you have to hold them to the quality of their play in endgame, so although I don't think he is mafia and had inside information on whom he was targeting, the dots connect in a weird way when you look back on them. I think his targets and rationale have been poorly formed, and the overall lineage of his play doesn't look town-minded to me.

I also found his defence overly deflective and reliant on technicality. I'm going to reread it, though.
 

Virgilijus

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I seriously didn't think anyone could be that dense.

Person A: Townie with legit, non-scummy reasoning.
Person B: Anti-town with scummy reasoning.

Get it yet?
Yes, and in your example you had you and EE starting the Chibo lynch and me following, which was not that case. Look over your post.

My point is that you voting for mafia by no means clears you. The only thing to do is look at your posts and the content within them, not any connections with mafia you may or may not have formed. And those don't paint you in such a favorable light.
Yes, the content of my posts. My content says I did not like how Chibo was coasting and responded to pressure. I posted saying I wasn't certain of TPK and Moronik. My posts pressured Xonar at the end of Day whatever. My posts and their pressure were virtually nullified Day 3 when I was voteblocked. I've posted my reasons for Macman and, when seeing the other side of the argument was stronger, posted that I thought it was the case. Nit picking posts in a game that has a 48 hour post deadline that don't have great content is biased. Most of Roxy's posts seem to be fickle wavering (which I have pointed out) but apparently that isn't a problem. For the longest time EE just asked people questions and never responded in full until now but that was never a problem. If you want to find a problem in some one's posts you will, and you're leaning against me.

I attacked you, and you responded with a counter-attack and an FOS. That's basically the definition of Oh-my-gosh-you-suck, except you FOS'd instead of voting.
SO as I said earlier, if I feel your attack is in line with being an indy attack on town, I therefore cannot say anything about it because it's OMGUS and therefore not substantial? No, that is not the case at all. It's not when I say something, it's what I say. I laid out my reasoning but you seem to excited that it was a counterpoint and just labeled it OMGUS.

You can't say my reasoning is inconsistent if multiple people have agreed with it.
That is not logical; if multiple people are inconsistent then they can all still agree with each other in that inconsistency. If I believe 2+1 = 10 and you believe 3+0 = 2 then nothing is stopping us from both agreeing 6+6 = 7.
 

Nicholas1024

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Yes, and in your example you had you and EE starting the Chibo lynch and me following, which was not that case. Look over your post.
Okay, you win the semantical nitpick. But you get the point.

Yes, the content of my posts. My content says I did not like how Chibo was coasting and responded to pressure.
Could you please direct the post in which you say that? The original voting post says nothing of the sort, and I don't recall you ever elaborating on your suspicion.

I posted saying I wasn't certain of TPK and Moronik. My posts pressured Xonar at the end of Day whatever.
A little pressure. Not nearly as much pressure as we've seen EE drop on people throughout the game.

My posts and their pressure were virtually nullified Day 3 when I was voteblocked.
I disagree that being unable to vote nullifies your posts and pressure. A single vote is hardly something to fear. It's the bandwagon you should fear, and you start a bandwagon with a case against someone, not just a vote.

I've posted my reasons for Macman and, when seeing the other side of the argument was stronger, posted that I thought it was the case. Nit picking posts in a game that has a 48 hour post deadline that don't have great content is biased.
Then why are you doing it? You've nitpicked my example, despite it being quite clear what I meant.

Most of Roxy's posts seem to be fickle wavering (which I have pointed out) but apparently that isn't a problem. For the longest time EE just asked people questions and never responded in full until now but that was never a problem. If you want to find a problem in some one's posts you will, and you're leaning against me.
Roxy is a new player. New players tend to waver a good bit. I know I was easily swayed in my first game.

Also, I know if you want to find something wrong you will, but people won't agree with you unless problems do exist. In Scum wars, I attacked KevinM on bad reasoning (mainly because he attacked me first), and he just built a counter-case against me and nearly got me lynched. Not one person took my side.

Well, in this game people have agreed with me, and problems do exist within your posts.

SO as I said earlier, if I feel your attack is in line with being an indy attack on town, I therefore cannot say anything about it because it's OMGUS and therefore not substantial? No, that is not the case at all. It's not when I say something, it's what I say. I laid out my reasoning but you seem to excited that it was a counterpoint and just labeled it OMGUS.
No, you're free to attack me if you please. However, I did similar stuff with Roxy and Chibo (if you care to go back and look), and you didn't have a problem then. Another interesting thing is that a similar thing happened back in D2: I attacked you, and subsequently rose on your scumlist. (EE makes note of this in his giant post, actually) See a pattern here?


That is not logical; if multiple people are inconsistent then they can all still agree with each other in that inconsistency. If I believe 2+1 = 10 and you believe 3+0 = 2 then nothing is stopping us from both agreeing 6+6 = 7.
Perhaps not, but 3 people are far more likely to get the same right answer than the same wrong answer.
 

Evil Eye

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I reread Virg's defence. Some of his points I would concede, but only minor ones. Overall I still felt it was overly deflective and technical, and it didn't dissuade my larger concerns. The constant theme of "Oh yeah? Well what about you!?" also made me increasingly uneasy. Turning back a reasonable mirror is a good way to get people to see another point of view but it felt more like counterattack, which is unusual, given the fact that he still reads me as town. The tone and usage of this point was all wrong in his rebuttal.

I can't rebut that in full tonight. I have a forensics final tomorrow I'm not ready for, and that has to take priority. My case took enough of my time as is. I'll try to get a new, proper post up tomorrow -- I just wanted my opinion on the record.
 

Evil Eye

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Actually, before I go, I'd also like to put one major crux of Virg's countercase to rest:

His assessment of my suspicion is utterly incorrect. It took me this long to get my reread done for a reason, and that is that I was agonizing over every post. My general thought process on the Virg playerslot from the beginning of this game has been immediate suspicion of Guus, relents upon replacement, scrutinize Virg for a while but read town, start to dislike Virg's sideline stylings for a while but read marginal town, become suspicious after D2 flips, relent as of Census, and then it essentially grew onward in increasing suspicion from there.

My reread looked worse after having the benefit of flips, and so I made my case. My mind was not at all made up beforehand.
 

Virgilijus

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First note: I'll respond to Nich's post after I get back home (am at work now).

I reread Virg's defence. Some of his points I would concede, but only minor ones. Overall I still felt it was overly deflective and technical, and it didn't dissuade my larger concerns. The constant theme of "Oh yeah? Well what about you!?" also made me increasingly uneasy. Turning back a reasonable mirror is a good way to get people to see another point of view but it felt more like counterattack, which is unusual, given the fact that he still reads me as town. The tone and usage of this point was all wrong in his rebuttal.
The rebuttal wasn't to attack you (as I think you're town), but to show that some of the reasoning you put in to specify how something I did may be indy was actually done by you or other people and can also be viewed as a town action. The easiest way to do that is to show if you are one of the people that has a conflicting view about it: if I use Roxy as an example then it is much easier to say "Well, Roxy was playing indy'ish there but maybe Roxy is indy". If it's you then it is proof (if you are town and proof you have to follow along even if you are not) that that action can be made by a town and isn't necessarily a deductive portal into the mind of an indy.

And for the person who fills his accusatory posts with "Oh! Please no more dessert! You gave me too much!" and the like, saying the tone of my posts were wrong isn't saying much in my opinion. I don't joke around when I'm making points and a lynch is on the line (only example I can kiiiiind of think of was the endgame of Batmafia). I'm not catering a specific tone to sway; that's how I speak. Look at my posts back and forth with Marshy in Starfox mafia where people thought I was posting like an ***/unnatural for what I was saying in attacking him: same way I talk serious here. Same way I talk serious outing Cashed in Batmafia.
 

Evil Eye

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Ugh one more.

Sold2 I hope you have a substantial post coming, because you just agreed with Nic and said I'm ridiculous, which could really mean anything you want it to after the fact. I dislike that we're at such a crucial stage in both the game and this Day and that just earlier you were reading for a while and have now left.
 

DtJ S2n

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Super lazy non-substantial post coming.

You're entirely right. Big posts killed what interest I had. Remember I'm not playing this game for the enjoyment of playing or anything like that. I'm mostly playing out of repsect for the mod and I hate seeing modkills.

"Ridiculous," meaning how do you write that much. I'm not touching this with a 10 foot stick until I know what's going on. I read it one and a half times and that's enough for me.

To my understanding, EE is attacking Virg on metagaming, pushing safe lynches, and fencesitting. Virg defends himself with an equally long post that's equally hard to interpret. Virg says metagaming point means nothing, that EE also pushed safe lynches in a similar fashion, and that fencesitting is part of his playstyle. But that's just to my understanding and I have no idea how accurate any part of this is.

At this point I'd lean agreeing that Virg is independent, simply because my first and only readthrough of both and attack and defense gave me that impression. If I wanted to use past experience, I would say lynch EE for making such a large mountain of evidence, since the only two times I've seen attacks to that scale, both attackers were scum. But everything else in my mind says no to that idea, so eh.

Something better for me to do, EE, what is your number 1 reason you think Virg is an Independent? Keep it simple.
 

Evil Eye

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Wow I really wish I could keep my own promises because I have not been studying near as hard as I'd like. Endgames are a drug, I just gotta keep coming back...


Anyway, I wish I could make it that simple for you, but I can't. This isn't like KevinM, where one or two posts made a light bulb flick on and I started rapidly narrowing my eyes. This is more like Paprika, whom I simply found scummy in play from the beginning, except this is a grayer case with what I feel is a larger margin of error.

With that said, I can attempt to summarize it (even though I did so in my big post itself, as well as earlier), I guess. I feel that Virg has simply been spending far too much time on the sidelines, and the one time he did genuinely pursue anything was Macman, and I'm sure you remember enough of my objections to his conduct in doing so.

And it's his conduct that has been bothering me, Virg hasn't been posting a lot of content (especially not of his own accord), and even posts where he has attacked people felt watered down or off. Overall I feel like Virg has been staying calculatively out of the spotlight, trying not to piss in too many people's cereal, so to speak.

Virg is a cautious player but I just can't accept him as one that follows, stalls, makes poorly-reasoned votes, or fencesits, and I feel he's done all of these things more than once.
 

DtJ S2n

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That will do plenty fine, EE.

I would ask Virg for a simple defense, but there's no such thing.
virgy baby, whose the play?
This is what I want to see from Virg though. Who's the play and why are they a better option than yourself?
 

Virgilijus

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And I would counter that I did start off the first lynch of the game and became stymied day 2 in confusion between TPK and Moronik (though eventually hammered TPK who was mafia). Day 3 I was voteblocked. I also originally saw Macman as town playing poorly, was convinced that some of my meta for that wasn't wholly representative, suspected him of mafia and then, after KevinM flipped backed off as the chances became much lower.

EE: what games have I played where I led everyone throughout the game? You can look at any game and see I FoS and vote slowly (Batmafia, StarFox, SLJ, Disney) and almost never take a front seat. I've done this every time. I don't know if you're confusing me for Mr. Lau or Dirk Pitt, but in mafia I have never been the lead (In Batmafia I hung back to avoid nightkills, SLJ I let Kiki do his thing and stayed back, in Starfox I helped lynch you but afterwards fell back after wrongly accusing marshy, and coached from the sidelines in Disney mafia. Those are all the games I have played through fully and in none of them did I play differently than I am now in terms of activity and leading.)

Also, I have only voted for Chibo Day 1 when everyone agreed it was a decent choice, voted for TPK because I'd rather have a lynch than no lynch and he was on my scum list, voted Fatchu to make sure we got the lynch in time but voiced how I thought he was town, and then didn't vote again.

The only vote I ever had that didn't end on the person dying was Macman when he was at either L-1 or L-2. My votes and reasons for them have coincided with most of towns actions (starting, closing, closing while hesitant because lynch was town, and then not being able to vote). I've only voted four times EE and explained all of them; they aren't poorly reasoned.
 

Scamp

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I still have to go back and re-read the last six posts or so, but as of right now my opinion hasn't really changed since before EE's posts started everything. I don't like Nich, and I'm suspicious of Virg. Nich trumps Virg.
 

Virgilijus

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This is what I want to see from Virg though. Who's the play and why are they a better option than yourself?
Having to rewrite my answer due to site maintenance...

I think Nich is the play. I didn't like his coattail riding on EE and even weaker points he brought with him. Seems to my mind he thought momentum would surely shift to me and jumped on. Just my opinion though.

After him, as much as I have liked what Scamp has done, him claiming vig in this sort of endgame means I think we're going to have to lynch him at some point. Otherwise it would be letting a confirmed night killer around when we are looking for a night killer. For an example: he's currently backing me (which in and of itself is no fault since I'm town), but if he were indy he would know I am town due to the census and, when I flipped, could then steer the lynch towards the people that bandwagoned on to my lynch. Yes, you can metagame that metagame, but by that time we all know it's absurd to go that deep into the metagame.

So, in sum: Nich then Scamp.
 

Evil Eye

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I think Scamp is the play if Virg is not.

I apologize for not getting a rebuttal in, I've been busier than anticipated. But I don't think any of us really want to see that, do we? Virg and I understand each other for the most part and all going through all that would do is clarify some points he misunderstood or say "I don't like this defence because _____". I don't think that would actually accomplish anything proactive, and ultimately my opinion is not that important in the grand scheme of things, as often as people like to grab onto it.

I consider it more likely that Virg is town than I did when I made my case, but not enough to avoid his lynch altogether. My gut instinct on his demeanor has been rescinding in suspicion, while my head is telling me the same things I've been saying. This is not the tunneled lynch Virg either tried to portray it as or initially thought it was, it's simply one my mind's collection of the assorted facts cannot move forth from.

However I still can't shake free these suspicions, and I think if Virg isn't lynched toDay it won't ever happen. And so my vote stays. As for Scamp, he's actually a player that gave me somewhat of that Kevmo light bulb on D1, in fact to the point that it so directly invoked my suspicion and evoked my meta of Scump that I essentially forced myself to see the other side of things, as I did with Virg until recently. Some decent points if wishywashy on delivery were key in making it easier to change my instant antitown read, and his voting history also looks fairly solid overall in hindsight. Too much reasonable doubt to pursue it, despite how it bothered me, and thus Virg was -- and is -- a lower hanging fruit, to me.
 

Nicholas1024

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Having to rewrite my answer due to site maintenance...

I think Nich is the play. I didn't like his coattail riding on EE and even weaker points he brought with him. Seems to my mind he thought momentum would surely shift to me and jumped on. Just my opinion though.

After him, as much as I have liked what Scamp has done, him claiming vig in this sort of endgame means I think we're going to have to lynch him at some point. Otherwise it would be letting a confirmed night killer around when we are looking for a night killer. For an example: he's currently backing me (which in and of itself is no fault since I'm town), but if he were indy he would know I am town due to the census and, when I flipped, could then steer the lynch towards the people that bandwagoned on to my lynch. Yes, you can metagame that metagame, but by that time we all know it's absurd to go that deep into the metagame.

So, in sum: Nich then Scamp.
Hey Virg, you never answered my most recent post like you promised.

As far as the scamp lynch goes, I think you're going too metagame-heavy on that. I'd be fine with his lynch because

1) He wants to lynch me (and I know I'm town, of course)

2) We have 2 vig claims

3) He's on the census, the other vig claim is not.

IMO, that's plenty of reason to consider him for a lynch... tomorrow. Today, the target is on you, Virg.

@People gunning for my lynch
Would you guys please step up and present a case? I'd like to know exactly why I'm being considered. I know Virg's stance on why he wants to lynch me (and for the record, I think it's bad reasoning and I addressed it earlier), but I don't know exactly why the rest of you are after me Thank you.
 

#HBC | Mac

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nvm lets lynch scamp again, ill put a vote on virg tho if thts what it comes down to.


and lolol typo
 

Scamp

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Nich I haven't really liked your posts the entire game. I also don't like how your plays always seem to be anyone who looks at you funny.

Anyway, what I was alluding to earlier was that your attack on Virg was partially based on scummy actions, while we're hunting for an indy. You even mention such a thing specifically in the second post against Virg, which raised a lot of red flags for me based on the first one. More recently however it dawned on me that scummy could have meant anti-town, which means mafia and anti-town independent, but I didn't get that vibe from your earlier posts.

Your later posts though have been specific and not scum-hunting-generalized IMO. You're better at that.
 

Virgilijus

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Yes, and in your example you had you and EE starting the Chibo lynch and me following, which was not that case. Look over your post.
Okay, you win the semantical nitpick. But you get the point.

No. Your whole situation was incorrect; there wasn't a point to be had.

Yes, the content of my posts. My content says I did not like how Chibo was coasting and responded to pressure.
Could you please direct the post in which you say that? The original voting post says nothing of the sort, and I don't recall you ever elaborating on your suspicion.

God knows my posts are buried at the beginning of the game and don't have time (at work) to sift through them all with the search function messed up. If you don't believe me then don't believe me.

I posted saying I wasn't certain of TPK and Moronik. My posts pressured Xonar at the end of Day whatever.
A little pressure. Not nearly as much pressure as we've seen EE drop on people throughout the game.

So you admit there was pressure (which is good), but because it wasn't EE's amount of pressure that is bad. Doesn't make sense.

My posts and their pressure were virtually nullified Day 3 when I was voteblocked.
I disagree that being unable to vote nullifies your posts and pressure. A single vote is hardly something to fear. It's the bandwagon you should fear, and you start a bandwagon with a case against someone, not just a vote.

I said virtually nullifies, not completely nullifies. To prove this point, my FoS of you made you think I was OMGUS. If I didnt have the power to actually be the start of a lynch or get others to apply pressure, then I am at a disadvantage. The point of this game is unintended consequences: the voteblock comes with a doc protect. Of course it's going to hinder the person it is given to. To think otherwise isn't thinking clearly.

I've posted my reasons for Macman and, when seeing the other side of the argument was stronger, posted that I thought it was the case. Nit picking posts in a game that has a 48 hour post deadline that don't have great content is biased.
Then why are you doing it? You've nitpicked my example, despite it being quite clear what I meant.

Nit picking means finding specific examples that fit your point. You nit picked out of all of my posts. I answered your entire post, not ignoring other chunks of it or dismissing it. Different thing.

Most of Roxy's posts seem to be fickle wavering (which I have pointed out) but apparently that isn't a problem. For the longest time EE just asked people questions and never responded in full until now but that was never a problem. If you want to find a problem in some one's posts you will, and you're leaning against me.
Roxy is a new player. New players tend to waver a good bit. I know I was easily swayed in my first game.

And that means no one should be put off by it? No, it doesn't.

Also, I know if you want to find something wrong you will, but people won't agree with you unless problems do exist. In Scum wars, I attacked KevinM on bad reasoning (mainly because he attacked me first), and he just built a counter-case against me and nearly got me lynched. Not one person took my side.

Well, in this game people have agreed with me, and problems do exist within your posts.

Just because people agree with you doesn't mean that you are in the clear; if this weren't the case how could mafia or an indy ever herd people to do what they want? I admit my decisiveness on the first lynch Day 2 wasn't up to par (though of the waffling one was mafia) and we moved on. Lingering on that saying I was fence riding is one take you can have, but if you view it with everything else I have done, it's not more condemning than Roxy being fickle or others inactivity (when all assuredly aren't mafia).

SO as I said earlier, if I feel your attack is in line with being an indy attack on town, I therefore cannot say anything about it because it's OMGUS and therefore not substantial? No, that is not the case at all. It's not when I say something, it's what I say. I laid out my reasoning but you seem to excited that it was a counterpoint and just labeled it OMGUS.
No, you're free to attack me if you please. However, I did similar stuff with Roxy and Chibo (if you care to go back and look), and you didn't have a problem then. Another interesting thing is that a similar thing happened back in D2: I attacked you, and subsequently rose on your scumlist. (EE makes note of this in his giant post, actually) See a pattern here?

[COLOR="lime"SO you're saying you did something you would think I would view scummy, you then attack me (a townie) and rise on my scum list. That makes sense to me. Just because I do not instantly post my opinions (many times they need to remain quite to view the poster more clearly) doesn't mean they were not there. Look at EE's giant post about me. Before that he hadn't voiced much of an opinion about me being indy/scum but waited until now. If you have fault with my method you have fault with the person you are standing behind as town][/COLOR]

[QUOTE]
That is not logical; if multiple people are inconsistent then they can all still agree with each other in that inconsistency. If I believe 2+1 = 10 and you believe 3+0 = 2 then nothing is stopping us from both agreeing 6+6 = 7.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps not, but 3 people are far more likely to get the same right answer than the same wrong answer.

[COLOR="lime"]Not when anti-town wins, which is what this game is all about.[/COLOR]

I'm also going to unvote vote: Scamp since it appears many of you aren't too active about my Nich vote. No one has refuted or denied the fact we need to heavily look at the vigs, but are content to sit on your hands and refusing to do anything other than post one line comments that do nothing (Roxy comes to immediate mind)
 

Purple

Hi guys!
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
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Duluth, Georgia
I'm sure i do, I really don't have much to say here virg. My EE's POV I'm cleared from his reports.

I need to go back and re-read, but i'd rather not re-read someone who's on the virge of getting lynched today anyways.

Virg, do you feel that with your lynch town will lose immediately? There are little to no threats to town now. another GF would be silly (as EE has said as well). Which only leaves Macman FMPOV. As town would you be able to come to peace with your lynch?
 
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