Unintended Consequences Mafia: The Saga Concludes

[Virgilijus]

I'm going to be honest here Roxy: that is not a very well thought out post.

I am town. I know this without error. The fact that I very well get lynched today through the process of 1) EE jumping on me and people following 2) refuting the claims and people agreeing I have some points 3) still keeping votes on and me getting lynched by poor sight of town won't sit right with me. Yes, it looks like we have a great advantage, but a bad lynch is a bad lynch and it's town that is doing it. If you are capable of letting a bad lynch like this happen, then what's to stop it from happening again? Saying it was all right just because we end up winning doesn't follow through.

I have fought against my lynch for precisely this reason (as EE posted he would fight for his). On the other hand, when Scamp was pressured (why did I forget this?) he offered to let himself be lynched if town willed it. That makes no sense coming from town; if you advocate your own lynch AND flip town, what reads will town get? None. That's why I didn't and town shouldn't.

I am still at work and can't post my own thoughts. I hope no one hammers and we'll have a no lynch (I'm assuming a Scamp wagon can't happen this quickly with such an eclectic group) and not be led astray as much as we were today.

 

[Purple]

It was a good post. I got some good info imo

 

[Scamp]

Wait what? When did I advocate my own lynch?

All I think I've said was that I knew claiming Vig would probably get me killed, and that if my lynch would bring about good information that I would vote for myself. I don't ever recall offering to let myself be lynched.

 

[Purple]

Virg, for the past two pages I've seen you.

1) Fight against lynch.
2) Ignoring town's advantage and your lynch potentially helping town more than hurting.
3) Pressure two different people in a OMGUS like manner.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Nich I haven't really liked your posts the entire game. I also don't like how your plays always seem to be anyone who looks at you funny.

Anyway, what I was alluding to earlier was that your attack on Virg was partially based on scummy actions, while we're hunting for an indy. You even mention such a thing specifically in the second post against Virg, which raised a lot of red flags for me based on the first one. More recently however it dawned on me that scummy could have meant anti-town, which means mafia and anti-town independent, but I didn't get that vibe from your earlier posts.

Your later posts though have been specific and not scum-hunting-generalized IMO. You're better at that.

FYI, scummy = anti-town. I usually use mafia to describe specifically the mafia faction.

 

[Virgilijus]

and that if my lynch would bring about good information that I would vote for myself. I don't ever recall offering to let myself be lynched.

I cannot conceive of a plotline where you voting for yourself would help town or bring information that trumps another townie being alive and looking at the people willing to vote for you. If you are looking at bad reasons people voted for you, you voting for you to try to find them is the worst. That you offered this up (voting for yourself) is major red flags. I don't see why a person would say this unless they reeeeeally wanted to make themselves look like a true blooded townie (compare with what EE said and I did).

Virg, for the past two pages I've seen you.

1) Fight against lynch.
2) Ignoring town's advantage and your lynch potentially helping town more than hurting.
3) Pressure two different people in a OMGUS like manner.

Fighting against my own lynch is obvious. I don't know why you would bring that up.

The lynch doesn't help town because I am town and the indy going along with it is off the radar because people are really only talking about me.

I all ready said my Nich pressure wasn't OMGUS (people just like throwing that term around these days). How could I OMGUS Scamp when Scamp didn't attack me and I all ready had him as the second highest person I wanted to lynch? Think about it.

 

[Purple]

I brought it up even though it was obvious so it didn't seem like i was just pushing what you've done 'wrong' wrong is being loosely used by the way.

Scamp is pretty commonly killed by everyone, i just think a lot of us want a flip. At least i do.. I understand what you're saying now, but you didn't talk like this consistently throughout the past four days.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Okay, you win the semantical nitpick. But you get the point.

No. Your whole situation was incorrect; there wasn't a point to be had.

You're sidestepping my point. Our reasonings for voting were different, so EE and I are perfectly justified in attacking your reasoning for voting Chibo.

Could you please direct the post in which you say that? The original voting post says nothing of the sort, and I don't recall you ever elaborating on your suspicion.

God knows my posts are buried at the beginning of the game and don't have time (at work) to sift through them all with the search function messed up. If you don't believe me then don't believe me.

The problem is, I can't prove that you didn't. Even if I went back and went through the whole thread again, it'd just be my word against yours. So you can understand why I'm quite interested in seeing that post.

A little pressure. Not nearly as much pressure as we've seen EE drop on people throughout the game.

So you admit there was pressure (which is good), but because it wasn't EE's amount of pressure that is bad. Doesn't make sense.

It wasn't a big deal. It's not a bad thing, but it's definitely not instant townie status either.

I disagree that being unable to vote nullifies your posts and pressure. A single vote is hardly something to fear. It's the bandwagon you should fear, and you start a bandwagon with a case against someone, not just a vote.

I said virtually nullifies, not completely nullifies. To prove this point, my FoS of you made you think I was OMGUS. If I didnt have the power to actually be the start of a lynch or get others to apply pressure, then I am at a disadvantage. The point of this game is unintended consequences: the voteblock comes with a doc protect. Of course it's going to hinder the person it is given to. To think otherwise isn't thinking clearly.

The power's in the argument, not just the vote. Is a vote without a case enough to get others to apply pressure? No. Is a case without a vote enough to get others to apply pressure? Yes.

Sure, when you're at/near LYLO being voteblocked makes a difference, but We aren't (and definitely weren't back then) anywhere near LYLO, so it isn't all that big of a deal.

Then why are you doing it? You've nitpicked my example, despite it being quite clear what I meant.

Nit picking means finding specific examples that fit your point. You nit picked out of all of my posts. I answered your entire post, not ignoring other chunks of it or dismissing it. Different thing.

Okay, you found one specific way in which my example wouldn't paint you as scum, despite the far more obvious intended interpretation.

Roxy is a new player. New players tend to waver a good bit. I know I was easily swayed in my first game.

And that means no one should be put off by it? No, it doesn't.

Fair point, but it's not nearly as big of a tell as if an experienced player like Tom or frozenflame were to do it.

Also, I know if you want to find something wrong you will, but people won't agree with you unless problems do exist. In Scum wars, I attacked KevinM on bad reasoning (mainly because he attacked me first), and he just built a counter-case against me and nearly got me lynched. Not one person took my side.

Well, in this game people have agreed with me, and problems do exist within your posts.

Just because people agree with you doesn't mean that you are in the clear; if this weren't the case how could mafia or an indy ever herd people to do what they want? I admit my decisiveness on the first lynch Day 2 wasn't up to par (though of the waffling one was mafia) and we moved on. Lingering on that saying I was fence riding is one take you can have, but if you view it with everything else I have done, it's not more condemning than Roxy being fickle or others inactivity (when all assuredly aren't mafia).

People are far more likely to agree with a correct answer than a wrong answer. It doesn't guarantee that I'm town, but it does mean that my argument holds water and your defense has holes in it.

Oh, and I think that when you add all the evidence together, it is in fact more condemning than Roxy being fickle or others activity (which we aren't having problems with at this point, actually.)

No, you're free to attack me if you please. However, I did similar stuff with Roxy and Chibo (if you care to go back and look), and you didn't have a problem then. Another interesting thing is that a similar thing happened back in D2: I attacked you, and subsequently rose on your scumlist. (EE makes note of this in his giant post, actually) See a pattern here?

SO you're saying you did something you would think I would view scummy, you then attack me (a townie) and rise on my scum list. That makes sense to me. Just because I do not instantly post my opinions (many times they need to remain quite to view the poster more clearly) doesn't mean they were not there. Look at EE's giant post about me. Before that he hadn't voiced much of an opinion about me being indy/scum but waited until now. If you have fault with my method you have fault with the person you are standing behind as town]

Let's go through in chronological order.

1) EE makes big post about Roxy/Chibo
2) I think EE's argument is good and follow.
3) You post in your scumlist that you think I'm town.
4) I make a minor attack on you.
5) You post that I'm rising slightly on your scumlist.
6) EE makes big post about you.
7) I think EE's argument is good and follow.
8) You post that I'm now at the top of your scumlist.

So, when I followed EE against Roxy/Chibo, you had no problem with it.

When I made a minor attack on you, you had a bit of a problem with it.

And when I made a big attack on you (following EE again), you had a huge problem with it.

You're claiming that it was me following EE that caused me to rise on your scumlist. Well, judging by the history, it was the fact that I was attacking you instead of someone else.

So, you're either lying about your reasons for attacking me now, or you were lying in your scumlists back then. Ever heard of lynch all liars?

Perhaps not, but 3 people are far more likely to get the same right answer than the same wrong answer.

Not when anti-town wins, which is what this game is all about.

Um, what's this have anything to do with the above sentence?

I'm also going to unvote vote: Scamp since it appears many of you aren't too active about my Nich vote. No one has refuted or denied the fact we need to heavily look at the vigs, but are content to sit on your hands and refusing to do anything other than post one line comments that do nothing (Roxy comes to immediate mind)

Anyway, I'm perfectly happy with the Virg lynch.

@Roxy
Yeah, Virg advocating Scamp as a 2nd lynch isn't exactly Oh-my-gosh-you-suck, as Scamp has said that he'd prefer me over Virg as the lynch today. Also, you should always fight against your own lynch(Only town exception I can think of is if it's a deadline self-hammer and you're guaranteed to be lynched the next day anyway. But that's pretty unrelated.). But you're right (IMO) that him attacking me was Oh-my-gosh-you-suck, despite him trying to deny it.

 

[DtJ S2n]

I kinda want to poke at Nich's most recent post for Virg, but I think that's not my job. Falls under "answering other peoples questions" imo.

I'm happy with Virg's defense, his other suggested lynches, and how he's handled the situation in general. I feel as if Nich is either looking at things too hard, or that one quote I wish I had on hand, scum trying to look helpful.

I'm looking at the latter partially because this reminds me way too much of Newbie 3 when Cello Mari was launching massive attacks on FrozenFlame, and Scum2 (that's me) pushed the wagon with weaker points on the side and nearly got FF quicklynched. I almost got away with doing that too, if I hadn't been so dang inactive outside of that wagon. If I was the Indy in this situation, I'd be looking like Nich now I thinks.

Vote Nich
I won't be here tomorrow. If Nich wagon isn't happening I'm willing to switch my vote to Scamp.

 

[Virgilijus]

You're sidestepping my point. Our reasonings for voting were different, so EE and I are perfectly justified in attacking your reasoning for voting Chibo.

And what was your specific reasoning? that Chibo was posting fluff, wasn't answering questions? That he went absent when pressure was applied? Well lookie there, I was the first person to jump on his fluff posts and noted the lacking answers he gave. I was the first one on it, you guys joined and not once even hinted you disapproved of my vote.

The problem is, I can't prove that you didn't. Even if I went back and went through the whole thread again, it'd just be my word against yours. So you can understand why I'm quite interested in seeing that post.

You could if you wanted, but I can't blame you for not looking since I don't want to look either.

It wasn't a big deal. It's not a bad thing, but it's definitely not instant townie status either.

So again, you bring up a point that is beneficial and somehow twist it to say it might be that I'm not town. Still makes little sense.

The power's in the argument, not just the vote. Is a vote without a case enough to get others to apply pressure? No. Is a case without a vote enough to get others to apply pressure? Yes.

Remember when I threatened mac (EE talks about it in his post) and some one commented it was an empty threat. Then I voted for him and the real pressure was applied. If some one doesn't have votes, lynches won't happen. This entire game, every lynch has essentially been a wagon with one person starting and everyone else finishing; no real close lynches. If I can't apply pressure and personally start the lynch, it take away most of the pressure I can apply and impose.

Sure, when you're at/near LYLO being voteblocked makes a difference, but We aren't (and definitely weren't back then) anywhere near LYLO, so it isn't all that big of a deal.

And you're saying this from experience? Because I am; it hinders me. I don't jump on wagons quickly; when I vote people know it means something. Taking that away hinders my pressure. I've said this how many times now?

Okay, you found one specific way in which my example wouldn't paint you as scum, despite the far more obvious intended interpretation.

What are there in this game other than specific ways? Your example is by no means concrete and is wrong. I was showing the inherent flaws in it. I can't agree with the intended example because it is wrong (because I am town); it would make no sense for me to.

Fair point, but it's not nearly as big of a tell as if an experienced player like Tom or frozenflame were to do it.

Still, you haven't commented about it at all. Instead you're just looking at me and ignoring the absence of Sold2, Gheb and the jumpy Roxy. I have had answers for all of your questions (many you have admitted are answers, but that you still think I'm antitown) and still, I'm the only focus. You can't just say "Oh, they're new" and then just go after an experienced player who you have never played with before nor knows how he plays and indict him on playstyle.

People are far more likely to agree with a correct answer than a wrong answer. It doesn't guarantee that I'm town, but it does mean that my argument holds water and your defense has holes in it.

Where are we assuming people are likely agree to the correct answer? Every mislynch is people agreeing with a wrong answer and we've had two so far this game. You may like your argument, but that has no bearing on whether it is correct. If I get lynched and you see my flip, bear this in mind for future games.

Oh, and I think that when you add all the evidence together, it is in fact more condemning than Roxy being fickle or others activity (which we aren't having problems with at this point, actually.)

The thing is, you are having problems. Why? Because I am active town and am probably going to be lynched and indy arguably skated by today. You're assuming I am indy and patting yourself on the back for it which is the wrong way to look at things. Gheb, Roxy, and Sold2 contributed nothing today. Tell me: what did you learn about them today? What more would you learn when I flip town?

Let's go through in chronological order.

1) EE makes big post about Roxy/Chibo
2) I think EE's argument is good and follow.
3) You post in your scumlist that you think I'm town.
4) I make a minor attack on you.
5) You post that I'm rising slightly on your scumlist.
6) EE makes big post about you.
7) I think EE's argument is good and follow.
8) You post that I'm now at the top of your scumlist.

So, when I followed EE against Roxy/Chibo, you had no problem with it.

When I made a minor attack on you, you had a bit of a problem with it.

And when I made a big attack on you (following EE again), you had a huge problem with it.

If this argument were to make sense (making people rise on my list if they attack me), why is EE near the top of my clear? Have you thought I havne't liked your mirroring of EE's points? Oh, then your entire course of actions makes perfect sense. You're tunneling, Nich.

You're claiming that it was me following EE that caused me to rise on your scumlist. Well, judging by the history, it was the fact that I was attacking you instead of someone else.

Look at my above response.

So, you're either lying about your reasons for attacking me now, or you were lying in your scumlists back then. Ever heard of lynch all liars?

I just proved I wasn't lying in my reasons for your rise on my scumlist. And are you really claiming I was lying on my scumlist? Why would an indy even do that? A scum list is the opinion of the poster; how can some one lie about it?

Um, what's this have anything to do with the above sentence?

Three is not more likely to get the right answer because no one knows the right answer. If the best case is made towards the wrong answer, people will jump on it (example: all town mislynches). That's what it has to do with.

Anyway, I'm perfectly happy with the Virg lynch.

And you are wrong and have tunneled and let your emotions of arguing with me skew your judgments.

 

[Virgilijus]

I kinda want to poke at Nich's most recent post for Virg, but I think that's not my job. Falls under "answering other peoples questions" imo.

If he was asking my opinion, I'd agree. However, this is a debate in public; please chime in if you feel either of us is saying things you think are ill-conceived. Benefits town anyway you look at it.

 

[DtJ S2n]

Okay wonderful. Let me get the 10 foot stick.

Let's go through in chronological order.

1) EE makes big post about Roxy/Chibo
2) I think EE's argument is good and follow.
3) You post in your scumlist that you think I'm town.
4) I make a minor attack on you.
5) You post that I'm rising slightly on your scumlist.
6) EE makes big post about you.
7) I think EE's argument is good and follow.
8) You post that I'm now at the top of your scumlist.

So, when I followed EE against Roxy/Chibo, you had no problem with it.

When I made a minor attack on you, you had a bit of a problem with it.

And when I made a big attack on you (following EE again), you had a huge problem with it.

You're claiming that it was me following EE that caused me to rise on your scumlist. Well, judging by the history, it was the fact that I was attacking you instead of someone else.

So, you're either lying about your reasons for attacking me now, or you were lying in your scumlists back then. Ever heard of lynch all liars?

Here's the part of Nich's most recent post that caught my attention. You assume here that Virg should be suspicious of you for following EE every time you do it. How to word this...
Do you think Virg should have called you out THEN? It wouldn't make much sense to call someone out for following the first time they do it if they give reasoning. The second time is excusable as well imo. But you've been doing it all game, and that is definitely something to find scummy.

I had problems with Nich's first point too, but Virg already did it well enough. No need to repeat him there.

The problem is, I can't prove that you didn't. Even if I went back and went through the whole thread again, it'd just be my word against yours. So you can understand why I'm quite interested in seeing that post.

I may just go dig it up myself. I could have sworn there was more that bothered me that Virg didn't hit but I'm clearly mistaken!

I read over Virg's response and I have to ask. What alignment do you think Nich is?

 

[DtJ S2n]

Vote: Chibo

I just reread (though admit to skimming EE's giant post and Nick's post with the Phoenix Wright gifs :urg) and haven't like a single post of yours.

While other people are discussing things, whether or not they are town or scum, they are talking and getting the game going. You did parrot a little snippet of an answer in what looks like just a way to keep your activity up. You admit to not keeping up with the game, need to reread, and then vote Roxy because you "don't like Roxy".

You're playing like a leech so far. Don't like it at all.

As for the other discussions, I don't have full opinions of them yet. I do get the feeling that Macman is town, but it's just a feeling.

I thought someone said it wasn't his vote post, but it looks like it was his vote post to me? Correct me if I'm mistaken...

 

[Nicholas1024]

Okay, I'll give him the coasting bit, but it doesn't say much about responding to pressure badly.

 

[Virgilijus]

I read over Virg's response and I have to ask. What alignment do you think Nich is?

I personally don't think there is mafia left (both by number and Gheb's census). I think either Scamp or Nich is the indy of the remaining census takers. It has to be one or the other, but to me they are essentially split (my vote stays on Scamp though since I remembered his saying he would vote for himself).

I'm trying to form a proper description of what I want to say. I think the indy is between them and for that, I am assuming both are indy (with obviously a town flip of one strengthening my indy opinion on the other).

Gheb and Roxy: what are your opinions on the whole debate?

 

[Scamp]

I cannot conceive of a plotline where you voting for yourself would help town or bring information that trumps another townie being alive and looking at the people willing to vote for you. If you are looking at bad reasons people voted for you, you voting for you to try to find them is the worst. That you offered this up (voting for yourself) is major red flags. I don't see why a person would say this unless they reeeeeally wanted to make themselves look like a true blooded townie (compare with what EE said and I did).

You're focusing too much on the quote which is actually just a paraphrased guess and not so much on the intent. The way I see it town has a massive lead right now and if my death can help bring about victory then I would advocate it. It's not like voting myself is some kind of trap that I can spring on people and say: Haha! Gotcha!

Later I will find the post where I said I'd vote for myself (or whatever I said that suggested I said this) but right now I have dinner/party plans.

 

[Purple]

nich's lookin scummy (er). But with such a good defense virg, i wonder why you couldn't have been offense of any of these people until now

 

[Nicholas1024]

And what was your specific reasoning? that Chibo was posting fluff, wasn't answering questions? That he went absent when pressure was applied? Well lookie there, I was the first person to jump on his fluff posts and noted the lacking answers he gave. I was the first one on it, you guys joined and not once even hinted you disapproved of my vote.

Don't remember off of the top of my head, I'll hunt through the thread in the morning and find it for you.

You could if you wanted, but I can't blame you for not looking since I don't want to look either.

So again, you bring up a point that is beneficial and somehow twist it to say it might be that I'm not town. Still makes little sense.

You're twisting my words here. I said it wasn't a bad thing. aka: It's a point in your favor. I'm simply saying it doesn't instantly clear you.

Remember when I threatened mac (EE talks about it in his post) and some one commented it was an empty threat. Then I voted for him and the real pressure was applied. If some one doesn't have votes, lynches won't happen. This entire game, every lynch has essentially been a wagon with one person starting and everyone else finishing; no real close lynches. If I can't apply pressure and personally start the lynch, it take away most of the pressure I can apply and impose.

I throw my vote and pressure around fairly quickly, as you've seen through the game. I don't see how I'd really change my playstyle if voteblocked, it's just that my votes wouldn't do anything.

And you're saying this from experience? Because I am; it hinders me. I don't jump on wagons quickly; when I vote people know it means something. Taking that away hinders my pressure. I've said this how many times now?

Theorycrafting. I haven't been voteblocked before, but it's how I'd react.

What are there in this game other than specific ways? Your example is by no means concrete and is wrong. I was showing the inherent flaws in it. I can't agree with the intended example because it is wrong (because I am town); it would make no sense for me to.

Still, you haven't commented about it at all. Instead you're just looking at me and ignoring the absence of Sold2, Gheb and the jumpy Roxy. I have had answers for all of your questions (many you have admitted are answers, but that you still think I'm antitown) and still, I'm the only focus. You can't just say "Oh, they're new" and then just go after an experienced player who you have never played with before nor knows how he plays and indict him on playstyle.

Gheb is the census taker and therefore clear. Roxy is the claimed doc and voteblocker. Sold2 has been fairly townie. I've looked at Macman and Scamp today as well, don't forget. However, at this point I believe pretty firmly that seeing your flip is what would benefit town the most right now.

Where are we assuming people are likely agree to the correct answer? Every mislynch is people agreeing with a wrong answer and we've had two so far this game. You may like your argument, but that has no bearing on whether it is correct. If I get lynched and you see my flip, bear this in mind for future games.

If someone gets mislynched, there is almost always a reason behind it. Barring quicklynches, it's because that person was seen as scummy, and someone built a successful case against them. If a case was built against them and they got lynched then they're either

a) Scum
b) Bad town.

With an experienced player like you, a) is a lot more likely than b). Successful cases are rarely built against experienced town players.

The thing is, you are having problems. Why? Because I am active town and am probably going to be lynched and indy arguably skated by today. You're assuming I am indy and patting yourself on the back for it which is the wrong way to look at things. Gheb, Roxy, and Sold2 contributed nothing today. Tell me: what did you learn about them today? What more would you learn when I flip town?

Right now you've been accusing me of being the indy. Would you say I skated by? Gheb and Roxy are role-semi-clears. Sold2 has been fairly townie through the game.

If this argument were to make sense (making people rise on my list if they attack me), why is EE near the top of my clear? Have you thought I havne't liked your mirroring of EE's points? Oh, then your entire course of actions makes perfect sense. You're tunneling, Nich.

There's a perfectly good reason you haven't attacked EE. It'd be suicide. EE is at the top of everyone's town list, he's a brilliant player, and he's claimed a power role. Also, if you attacked him right after he built a giant case against you, it would be incredibly obvious Oh-my-gosh-you-suck and build you an even bigger hole.

Look at my above response.



I just proved I wasn't lying in my reasons for your rise on my scumlist. And are you really claiming I was lying on my scumlist? Why would an indy even do that? A scum list is the opinion of the poster; how can some one lie about it?

See my argument above.

Three is not more likely to get the right answer because no one knows the right answer. If the best case is made towards the wrong answer, people will jump on it (example: all town mislynches). That's what it has to do with.

Discussed this above.

And you are wrong and have tunneled and let your emotions of arguing with me skew your judgments.

Even if I am wrong (though I'm still fairly confident in my vote), I couldn't trust you in endgame by this point. And you couldn't trust me in endgame. No, the play is obviously either me or you today.

@ Everyone else

I think its obvious that today's lynch is between me and Virg. Although I hope you'll lynch him, it seems the momentum is swinging against me.

If you do lynch me, remember my words and my case when I flip town. That is all.

@Sold2
I'd expect that if he thought it was scummy, I at least would have risen somewhat on his daily scumlist. Also, if arguably the best player in the game and nearly-cleared town makes a brilliant and persuasive case against someone, wouldn't you seriously consider following him?

 

[Kirby King]

Day 4 Vote Count
Virgilijus (4): Evil Eye, Nicholas1024, Gheb_01, Roxy
Nicholas1024 (2): Macman, Sold2
Scamp (1): Virgilijus

Not voting: Scamp

It takes 5 out of 8 votes to lynch.

The deadline is Saturday, April 24 at 11:59:59 PM ET.

 

[DtJ S2n]

I found a contradiction bro.

I personally don't think there is mafia left (both by number and Gheb's census). I think either Scamp or Nich is the indy of the remaining census takers.It has to be one or the other, but to me they are essentially split (my vote stays on Scamp though since I remembered his saying he would vote for himself).

I'm trying to form a proper description of what I want to say. I think the indy is between them and for that, I am assuming both are indy (with obviously a town flip of one strengthening my indy opinion on the other).

You're assuming I am indy and patting yourself on the back for it which is the wrong way to look at things.
-
You're tunneling, Nich.
-
And you are wrong and have tunneled and let your emotions of arguing with me skew your judgments

When reading over, your wording at a few points caught my interest, Virg. Going off wording alone, you seemed pretty confident Nich wasn't the Indy (only something the real indy could know), and that he was just a townie with a bad case. Note, this is the first reply to Nich you made after switching your case to Scamp, if that means anything to anyone.

Why would the Indy pat themselves on the back for assuming you're the indy. You wouldn't use the term tunnel to describe what ScumNich would be doing. I've never seen the term tunnel used for when you think scum is ignoring other options. Scum grasps for straws, or perhaps pushes too hard without appropriate reason. The third quoted part is same as above.

The thing is, you are having problems. Why? Because I am active town and am probably going to be lynched and indy arguably skated by today. You're assuming I am indy and patting yourself on the back for it which is the wrong way to look at things. Gheb, Roxy, and Sold2 contributed nothing today. Tell me: what did you learn about them today? What more would you learn when I flip town?

The indy arguably skated by today... You say that the indy has to be Nich or Scamp.... Are you suggesting that Nich or Scamp skated by today? No that's entirely wrong. You even list Gheb, Roxy, and my own name as those who could have skated by. While I won't deny skating, I'm clearly not Nich or Gheb man. To me this seems like you're trying to set-up for our lynches later by putting suspicion on us now.

Unvote
Am I on to something or am I just dumb guys? I hate looking at wording because it's so wishy-washy but I like this.
It took a little bit too much work tho.

Nich just snuck a post in but I'm not going to respond right now. Maybe next post?

 

[Virgilijus]

I found a contradiction bro.


When reading over, your wording at a few points caught my interest, Virg. Going off wording alone, you seemed pretty confident Nich wasn't the Indy (only something the real indy could know), and that he was just a townie with a bad case. Note, this is the first reply to Nich you made after switching your case to Scamp, if that means anything to anyone.

Why would the Indy pat themselves on the back for assuming you're the indy. You wouldn't use the term tunnel to describe what ScumNich would be doing. I've never seen the term tunnel used for when you think scum is ignoring other options. Scum grasps for straws, or perhaps pushes too hard without appropriate reason. The third quoted part is same as above.

For me, tunneling isn't something restricted to town, though yeah, I can understand the confusion. Replace it with obsessive focus and it means the same thing. If they think they get a whiff of something and solely focus on that, I consider it tunneling, irregardless of town or mafia or whatever.

Pat on the back because they found a way to get through the day. If an indy is just waiting around, not knowing if people will jump on him or not and what he thinks is a strong case pops up on some one else, attacks and pats himself on the back for finding a solid way away from him. That's how I viewed Nich's more confident posts when he was attacking me.

The indy arguably skated by today... You say that the indy has to be Nich or Scamp.... Are you suggesting that Nich or Scamp skated by today? No that's entirely wrong. You even list Gheb, Roxy, and my own name as those who could have skated by. While I won't deny skating, I'm clearly not Nich or Gheb man. To me this seems like you're trying to set-up for our lynches later by putting suspicion on us now.

I do think that Scamp has skated by today: the only person to apply any pressure to him has been me and no one else has even mentioned him. Also, the preface of that statement was that I was probably going to be lynched and that if I did, indy skated by since townie would be dead and only two votes other than mine had been cast (now one).

I listed you three because the three of you haven't contributed much (though you have become much more active, which I am glad of). I asked Nich what he learned from you guys today to show that essentially every iota of focus was on me. All eyes on me meant no eyes on the people not contributing which, as is obvious, is never a good thing (especially indy hunting. Even though you guys aren't my top suspects, that's just my opinion, not everyone's.)

Unvote
Am I on to something or am I just dumb guys? I hate looking at wording because it's so wishy-washy but I like this.
It took a little bit too much work tho.

Yeah, big posts and looking back on things sucks: my response post to EE took an hour.

 

[DtJ S2n]

Don't mind my activity, I just wait for things I find interesting and then I do things...

I wanna wait for someone else's opinion on what I've said. I should be able to post once tomorrow in the morning if my alarm goes off (lol).

There's really not much I can dispute with what you've just said, considering I can't just jump in your mind and know what you really intended. Again, wishy-washy stuff.

 

[Virgilijus]

Yeah; that's the problem with semantics in games like these.

 

[Evil Eye]

I noticed some of what Sold2 brought up, most notably the part where Virg chastizes the lack of suspicion on Roxy, S2 and Gheb. I find this unusual, considering Gheb and his census have been a large part of many of his arguments, including those against Scamp.

I also think changing our lynch at this point would not be a good thing, because independent of my suspicions, the flip we end up with should be the one with the longest paper trail leading up to it. To change the lynch, we'd have to dogpile switch as fast as possible, and thus there would be less opinions on the record about it from less players. This is why I wanted to finish my rereads and get a case against someone up a long time ago, but c'est la vie.

I didn't notice the points in Virg's posts where he addresses Nic as one may address a Townie attacking them, and I find that pretty strange. On a reread it does inconsistent, and I don't entirely buy the whole "well the same could be said for indies" explanation. The line about patting oneself on the back seems pretty clearly intended to appeal to making people obtain more objective doubt in their suspicions, and moreso when you consider that he mentioned the same thing to me when reminiscing about a similar time he tunneled on Marshy and "patted himself on the back". He follows up the thing about patting oneself on the back and telling him it's the wrong way to view things.

I didn't catch this at all, but it really does look like Virg is lightly playing the field, I think. In addressing Nic it reads to me as though Virg is in TvT mode, even when interspersing his posts with assertions of Nic's guilt. And the sudden spotlight turn back on the others gives me a definite bad vibe -- after all, if Virg is in fact the indy, simply getting Nicholas or Scamp lynched isn't going to be enough to take the ball game. Several mislynches are going to be needed for the indy to take this thing home, so it bears consideration. Normally I wouldn't entertain the notion of Virg making this kind of error, but these kind of slips do become a possibility when someone sits in the chair for an extended period of time.

That said I'm of course irritated by Gheb just dropping a vote, opinion, and eating popcorn.

Also, the notion that no one but Virg has said anything at all about Scamp is completely false.

 

[Virgilijus]

When did I turn the spotlight on everyone? I said Gheb, Sold2 and Roxy weren't doing much today (before Sold2 picked it up) and Nich wouldn't be able to tell me much about them based on ToDay, which I don't think many people would disagree with. That's not painting the field; that's saying they aren't being involved and coasting. I've stated again and again that I think Scamp/Nich is the indy. While no one save me is 100% clear, the rest are more than favorable (even with Roxy's posts driving me crazy).

I've brought up Scamp numerous times since the day got heated and the only one to respond was Macman, who said "Let's lynch him lolol"... and then disappeared. I know Roxy was suspicious of him early in the day (as was Gheb), but then I raise points and there isn't a response.

 

[Scamp]

While it's true I haven't been strongly accused ever since EE's really long post against you, to say I've skated by the day is preposterous. I was the first on everyone's list to roleclaim other than my own, and I've been in danger of dying the entire day.


Also, your points against me boils down to: I actually think he's okay, but one time he said "go ahead and lynch me" and that's bad so let's get him.

In all fairness, I didn't check for it before responding, so I can't exactly fault you for this. But I just skimmed this day looking for what I said exactly and I couldn't find it. Maybe I missed it, but now I don't think I've said anything even close to that.

 

[Virgilijus]

Excuse me? I've been lurking how?

If clearing me as vig would help the town narrow down the suspects I would be more than happy to off myself at this point. I don't see how it would, though, other than having one less person to choose from.

Here it is. It's a response post to Roxy on page 39.

 

[Evil Eye]

I think Scamp is the play if Virg is not.

[snipping a bunch of Virg stuff]

However I still can't shake free these suspicions, and I think if Virg isn't lynched toDay it won't ever happen. And so my vote stays. As for Scamp, he's actually a player that gave me somewhat of that Kevmo light bulb on D1, in fact to the point that it so directly invoked my suspicion and evoked my meta of Scump that I essentially forced myself to see the other side of things, as I did with Virg until recently. Some decent points if wishywashy on delivery were key in making it easier to change my instant antitown read, and his voting history also looks fairly solid overall in hindsight. Too much reasonable doubt to pursue it, despite how it bothered me, and thus Virg was -- and is -- a lower hanging fruit, to me.

<HTMLisforlimitdodging

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb and Roxy: what are your opinions on the whole debate?

I'm starting to like Nick some less again. He just seems so ... wordy and so untypically concerned with justifying everything. That might be metagaming but it's stilll very unlike him. I also don't like this post:

Gheb is the census taker and therefore clear. Roxy is the claimed doc and voteblocker. Sold2 has been fairly townie. I've looked at Macman and Scamp today as well, don't forget. However, at this point I believe pretty firmly that seeing your flip is what would benefit town the most right now.

That looks like an attempt to buddy up people who are likely to live longer (because of their claims they're unlikely to get lynched) to look golden later on. I don't think there's anything genuine in what he's saying. He's basically like "let's lynch Virg and then Scamp/Macman" but he does NOT take a stance. Believing that "one's flip would benefit town the most" is the cheapest cookie-cutter excuse to ever get behind a lynch while mentioning the other suspects to keep himself a door open for a cop-out later.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

vote: nich

ill switch if yu want me to EE

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Unvote Vote Nick

Looking at Sold2 toMorrow if Nick flips town.

 

[Nicholas1024]

@Gheb
I think I'll show you the situation from another angle. I'm going to go through the me v.s. Virg dialogue, and show you guys our back-and-forth dialogue one point at a time.


Example 1):
Here I'm trying to show that despite me being on the Chibo mislynch, as my reasoning for voting Chibo was different than Virg's, I can attack Virg's reasoning.

First off, I was the one that really started the Chibo wagon and you two followed me. As such, I would be person A in your scenario and you would be person B. Then, by your reasoning what I did doesn't pin anything on me. But then in the end because we're hunting for indy's it still incriminates me. Doesn't make sense.

I seriously didn't think anyone could be that dense.

Person A: Townie with legit, non-scummy reasoning.
Person B: Anti-town with scummy reasoning.

Get it yet?

Yes, and in your example you had you and EE starting the Chibo lynch and me following, which was not that case. Look over your post.

Okay, you win the semantical nitpick. But you get the point.

No. Your whole situation was incorrect; there wasn't a point to be had.

[/QUOTE]
Side note): Most recently he's challenged me to go back and find my reasoning post for voting. I'm pretty sure the reasons are outlined in EE's Christmas-colored posts, I'll go look for them.


Example 2:
The argument over his Oh-my-gosh-you-suck response.

I can't help but get the impression that you saw EE's gigantic attacking post, thought it was a post to shelter behind and get a lynch going, and then backed it without realizing you don't have much to back it with. I reiterate that you forgetting your position on Chibo strikes me odd and like that of indy: you didn't need to remember because at the time everyone agreed and a lynch that wasn't you happened.

FoS Nich for those reasons.

Oh, and by the way, nice "Oh-my-gosh-you-suck" FOS. If you followed this game AT ALL, you'd notice that EE's giant posts usually alter my scumlist quite a bit. You never had a problem with it before. Why now? Oh wait, I know. It's because I'm targeting YOU.

Think about what you just said there: EE attacked me 100x more than you AND voted for me and I sternly believe he is town, though misguided. I see you hanging on the coattails and backing some weaker points and it looks like something an indy would do if he feels momentum shifting my way. I take not of this and FoS you. Not vote: FoS. I FoS and say I don't like your post. How is that a FoS? Am I not allowed to think antitown is attacking me in a post and call them out on it? I never said I had a problem with EE affecting your scum list. Point it out to me if I accidentally did. I have a problem with your weak, supposedly complimenting claims trying to dig my trench deeper; they are flimsy and I've stated as such. If I do think that is the case, I'm more than entitled to say I disagree.

I attacked you, and you responded with a counter-attack and an FOS. That's basically the definition of Oh-my-gosh-you-suck, except you FOS'd instead of voting.

SO as I said earlier, if I feel your attack is in line with being an indy attack on town, I therefore cannot say anything about it because it's OMGUS and therefore not substantial? No, that is not the case at all. It's not when I say something, it's what I say. I laid out my reasoning but you seem to excited that it was a counterpoint and just labeled it OMGUS.

No, you're free to attack me if you please. However, I did similar stuff with Roxy and Chibo (if you care to go back and look), and you didn't have a problem then. Another interesting thing is that a similar thing happened back in D2: I attacked you, and subsequently rose on your scumlist. (EE makes note of this in his giant post, actually) See a pattern here?

SO you're saying you did something you would think I would view scummy, you then attack me (a townie) and rise on my scum list. That makes sense to me. Just because I do not instantly post my opinions (many times they need to remain quite to view the poster more clearly) doesn't mean they were not there. Look at EE's giant post about me. Before that he hadn't voiced much of an opinion about me being indy/scum but waited until now. If you have fault with my method you have fault with the person you are standing behind as town

Let's go through in chronological order.

1) EE makes big post about Roxy/Chibo
2) I think EE's argument is good and follow.
3) You post in your scumlist that you think I'm town.
4) I make a minor attack on you.
5) You post that I'm rising slightly on your scumlist.
6) EE makes big post about you.
7) I think EE's argument is good and follow.
8) You post that I'm now at the top of your scumlist.

So, when I followed EE against Roxy/Chibo, you had no problem with it.

When I made a minor attack on you, you had a bit of a problem with it.

And when I made a big attack on you (following EE again), you had a huge problem with it.

You're claiming that it was me following EE that caused me to rise on your scumlist. Well, judging by the history, it was the fact that I was attacking you instead of someone else.

So, you're either lying about your reasons for attacking me now, or you were lying in your scumlists back then. Ever heard of lynch all liars?

If this argument were to make sense (making people rise on my list if they attack me), why is EE near the top of my clear? Have you thought I havne't liked your mirroring of EE's points? Oh, then your entire course of actions makes perfect sense. You're tunneling, Nich.

There's a perfectly good reason you haven't attacked EE. It'd be suicide. EE is at the top of everyone's town list, he's a brilliant player, and he's claimed a power role. Also, if you attacked him right after he built a giant case against you, it would be incredibly obvious Oh-my-gosh-you-suck and build you an even bigger hole.

Example 3):
Virg trying to direct the spotlight to other people.

My point is that you voting for mafia by no means clears you. The only thing to do is look at your posts and the content within them, not any connections with mafia you may or may not have formed. And those don't paint you in such a favorable light.

Most of Roxy's posts seem to be fickle wavering (which I have pointed out) but apparently that isn't a problem. For the longest time EE just asked people questions and never responded in full until now but that was never a problem. If you want to find a problem in some one's posts you will, and you're leaning against me.

Also, I know if you want to find something wrong you will, but people won't agree with you unless problems do exist. In Scum wars, I attacked KevinM on bad reasoning (mainly because he attacked me first), and he just built a counter-case against me and nearly got me lynched. Not one person took my side.

Well, in this game people have agreed with me, and problems do exist within your posts.

Just because people agree with you doesn't mean that you are in the clear; if this weren't the case how could mafia or an indy ever herd people to do what they want? I admit my decisiveness on the first lynch Day 2 wasn't up to par (though of the waffling one was mafia) and we moved on. Lingering on that saying I was fence riding is one take you can have, but if you view it with everything else I have done, it's not more condemning than Roxy being fickle or others inactivity (when all assuredly aren't mafia).

People are far more likely to agree with a correct answer than a wrong answer. It doesn't guarantee that I'm town, but it does mean that my argument holds water and your defense has holes in it.

Oh, and I think that when you add all the evidence together, it is in fact more condemning than Roxy being fickle or others activity (which we aren't having problems with at this point, actually.)

Still, you haven't commented about it at all. Instead you're just looking at me and ignoring the absence of Sold2, Gheb and the jumpy Roxy. I have had answers for all of your questions (many you have admitted are answers, but that you still think I'm antitown) and still, I'm the only focus. You can't just say "Oh, they're new" and then just go after an experienced player who you have never played with before nor knows how he plays and indict him on playstyle.

Gheb is the census taker and therefore clear. Roxy is the claimed doc and voteblocker. Sold2 has been fairly townie. I've looked at Macman and Scamp today as well, don't forget. However, at this point I believe pretty firmly that seeing your flip is what would benefit town the most right now.

There's more to the me v.s. Virg arguments, but that's enough for now.

 

[Scamp]

Excuse me? I've been lurking how?

If clearing me as vig would help the town narrow down the suspects I would be more than happy to off myself at this point. I don't see how it would, though, other than having one less person to choose from.

Here it is. It's a response post to Roxy on page 39.

Ah, I see. So it seems the idea was proposed by me, followed directly by the notion that it wouldn't help at all. I don't think this, in any way, suggests that I offered up my own lynch.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Hm, seems like the EE christmas post was actually a case against Rockin. Well, these posts sum it up pretty well.

(Note: Chibo had just gone super lurker before reappearing and posting this)

This is by all means reasonable. With this many people to get quality scumhunting going soon and to be able to keep a good eye on lurkers/inactives we need to get the numbers in the game down a little bit. At least two people are gonna drop by tomorrow, one from scum and one from town. Well, we could no lynch, but we might as well build a better town for the next day and use the flip to our advantage as knowledge.

What would you consider to be the most anti-town trait?

Wow. Chibo waits that long to talk and offers up such a generic pile of crap stitched together by old mafia saws you'd think it came off a conveyor belt at a factory that mass produces generic piles of crap.

Vote: Chibo

This is by all means reasonable. With this many people to get quality scumhunting going soon and to be able to keep a good eye on lurkers/inactives we need to get the numbers in the game down a little bit. At least two people are gonna drop by tomorrow, one from scum and one from town. Well, we could no lynch, but we might as well build a better town for the next day and use the flip to our advantage as knowledge.

What would you consider to be the most anti-town trait?

Wow. Chibo waits that long to talk and offers up such a generic pile of crap stitched together by old mafia saws you'd think it came off a conveyor belt at a factory that mass produces generic piles of crap.

Vote: Chibo

Do you actually have a scumtell or do you just not like me?

This feels like a limp AtE smokescreen. You know I like you, we're collaborated on many LoD memes and talked on skype and such. As such this looks, smells, and tastes evasive. That's three outta five, pal, you're being evasive.

There was nothing dumb about your post. Just the opposite, my issue was that it was a bunch of mafia truisms that everybody knows, contorted to look like relevant contribution to the discussions at hand. After how long we've been waiting, it's a pile of crap. And it's scummy. You managed to type a bunch of words and say absolutely nothing.

My suspicions are heightened by the fact that the only time you can be counted on to have multiple posts in any kind of frequency is when people are on you, such as right now. Meanwhile you continue to barf up fluff and expect us to stand for it.

So, it looks like my reasons were basically the same as Virg's after all, except Chibo had magnified his uselessness tenfold by then. :embarrass
(There was one reason Virg gave that I didn't, he apparently thought it was scummy that Chibo "didn't like" Roxy, despite players such as KevinM posting like that regularly.)

 

[Nicholas1024]

Man, that's weird. Two of the posts in there got quoted twice. 0_0

 

[DtJ S2n]

Nich is runner-up for lynch in my book, but I'm confident it's Virg. Why Nich lynch all the sudden guys? I should've just hammered yesterday =/.
Vote Virg

@Gheb, why look at me tomorrow if Nich flips town. As if I'm the main pusher of the Nich lynch. I'm cool with it but I want the Virg lynch more. Why not look at yourself, who's given the momentum to that lynch, or at Virg who was originally pushing it? Not saying I don't want attention tomorrow but I just thought it odd.

 

[Kirby King]

Day 4 Vote Count
Virgilijus (4): Evil Eye, Nicholas1024, Roxy, Sold2
Nicholas1024 (2): Macman, Gheb_01
Scamp (1): Virgilijus

Not voting: Scamp

It takes 5 out of 8 votes to lynch.

The deadline is Saturday, April 24 at 11:59:59 PM ET.

 

[Virgilijus]

Ah, I see. So it seems the idea was proposed by me, followed directly by the notion that it wouldn't help at all. I don't think this, in any way, suggests that I offered up my own lynch.

The idea was proposed by you, followed by the notion it wouldn't help save that it would narrow down the target list. Why even mention it if you thought it was an inherently bad idea that could never benefit town? To me it just looks like you trying to prove you'd be willing to do whatever it takes for town to earn townie points.

 

[Scamp]

When did I say it was an inherently bad idea that could never benefit town? There are situations where killing yourself is good for the town, that was not one of them. Why mention it? Several people including yourself wanted to kill me because of my vig claim.

I am willing to do whatever it takes for the town to win. If you think I'm doing it just to earn townie points, I don't really know how to defend myself against that. But my whole point is that you repeatedly said you didn't like how I offered up my own lynch and now I see that that was never the case.

 

[Purple]

Scamp, kill Virg, thanks.