#UltimateDLCSoMale: The Female DLC Character Discussion

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I was actually going to address the rest of that s*** later, but it no longer interests me.



You're creating a narrative, bruh.

You were going to but now you are not interested? That's a very convenient excuse.

And I'm not the one pretending that gender representation should play a role in character selection for the Smash devs, so look at yourself first before telling me I'm creating a narrative, sis.

Sigh...just ignore him if he feels like he's not offering anything meaningful to the conversation.

And this is another example that showcases the disingenuous perspective I was talking about. You don't think I offer anything "meaningful" because I'm not taking your side; but I did offer several contributions to this thread on previous pages, you just chose to be selective about what you saw. How can you have any kind of honest discussion when you disregard any opposing view as noise? You don't address a valid point unless it's one that agrees with you or gives you positive feedback.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Obviously to understand the demographic of the peopl supporting the character.

To a larger extent, this could be them trying to understand their demographic information of their entire fanbase, not just supporters of certain characters. Last year I took marketing and we covered things like these. Companies will release surveys that ask for basic demographic information (age, gender, relative location, etc.) to understand where they're hitting their target market and where they need no improve.

This is why I think we're due for another fighters' ballot. Nintendo can't be using demographic information that's four or five years old to make decisions in the present. They could hold an entire new ballot with a few basic demographic questions and get more value out of those than whatever information they gather from the rest of their poll.

 

[Night Gale]

You were going to but now you are not interested? That's a very convenient excuse.

Although it was around afternoon time in Japan, it was late out here, bruh. You went on a tangent about why someone (on mobile) didn't immediately respond to your wall of text in its entirety. Of course I wouldn't give you the satisfaction of a response.

And I'm not the one pretending that gender representation should play a role in character selection for the Smash devs, so look at yourself first before telling me I'm creating a narrative, sis.

I'm not the one pretending that people who want more women in the game do not care about character design.

It should be considered for the same reason that it does in damn near every other fighting game nowadays. Perhaps more so since this is an all-star fighter that has now taken on the role of a video game museum.

Super Smash is fun because you get to play as a bunch of characters that mean something to someone. Function over form is the type of mentality that killed Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite. They are aware of the series' historical lack of playable women on the roster and mentioned it when there was an increase from Brawl to Smash for 3DS/Wii U.

 

[Neoxon]

Although it was around afternoon time in Japan, it was late out here, bruh. You went on a tangent about why someone (on mobile) didn't immediately respond to your wall of text in its entirety. Of course I wouldn't give you the satisfaction of a response.



I'm not the one pretending that people who want more women in the game do not care about character design.

It should be considered for the same reason that it does in damn near every other fighting game nowadays. Perhaps more so since this is an all-star fighter that has now taken on the role of a video game museum.

Super Smash is fun because you get to play as a bunch of characters that mean something to someone. Function over form is the type of mentality that killed Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite. They are aware of the series' historical lack of playable women on the roster and mentioned it when there was an increase from Brawl to Smash for 3DS/Wii U.

This is one thing that makes the whole situation worse. Sakurai noticed the problem & made attempts to correct it in the Wii U/3DS days. Yet now he & Nintendo are backsliding in a disappointingly big way.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

They are aware of the series' historical lack of playable women on the roster and mentioned it when there was an increase from Brawl to Smash for 3DS/Wii U.

Where can I find Nintendo/Sakurai talking about this? Not saying they never said this, but it would be nice to have a source.

 

[Night Gale]

Where can I find Nintendo/Sakurai talking about this? Not saying they never said this, but it would be nice to have a source.

December 26th, 2013 Miiverse Pic of the Day post.

To celebrate the launch of The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds in Japan, Zelda joins the battle!! It's great to see so many female characters this time around.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

To a larger extent, this could be them trying to understand their demographic information of their entire fanbase, not just supporters of certain characters. Last year I took marketing and we covered things like these. Companies will release surveys that ask for basic demographic information (age, gender, relative location, etc.) to understand where they're hitting their target market and where they need no improve.

This is why I think we're due for another fighters' ballot. Nintendo can't be using demographic information that's four or five years old to make decisions in the present. They could hold an entire new ballot with a few basic demographic questions and get more value out of those than whatever information they gather from the rest of their poll.

I thought Sakurai said in a Fatmitsu column that there wasn't going to be another Smash Ballot.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

December 26th, 2013 Miiverse Pic of the Day post.

Thank you!
That does mean Sakurai acknowledges female representation at least a bit
I still believe that it's not a major factor for them, and they will continue to pick characters that are popular or would make a fun character, regardless of gender. But the Miiverse post is interesting and should be something to keep in mind

 

[MaddaD]

On the note of KOS-MOS, maybe bad news.

Xenosaga collection “progressed to the remasters plan, but failed in a profitable market analysis” https://t.co/yLJT9rp6GB pic.twitter.com/F4QVJDrSKt

— Gematsu (@gematsu) December 26, 2019

 

[Spongeboob]

On the note of KOS-MOS, maybe bad news.

Xenosaga collection “progressed to the remasters plan, but failed in a profitable market analysis” https://t.co/yLJT9rp6GB pic.twitter.com/F4QVJDrSKt

— Gematsu (@gematsu) December 26, 2019

(Maybe) Bad news indeed, but I don't think it means squat to roster speculation.

 

[Deleted member]

(Maybe) Bad news indeed, but I don't think it means squat to roster speculation.

True, but it’s gonna look bad that there’s no way to play Xenosaga on modern consoles.

 

[MaddaD]

(Maybe) Bad news indeed, but I don't think it means squat to roster speculation.

It's really up in the air (hence the maybe) but for purposes of demand from fans, it certainly isn't a good outlook.

True, but it’s gonna look bad that there’s no way to play Xenosaga on modern consoles.

A real shame. Preservation in the medium is likely going to be one of the major things that will cause an uproar in the coming decades and most companies don't really seem to care. But developers, amirite?

Thank god for emulation.

 

[Ben Holt]

On the note of KOS-MOS, maybe bad news.

Xenosaga collection “progressed to the remasters plan, but failed in a profitable market analysis” https://t.co/yLJT9rp6GB pic.twitter.com/F4QVJDrSKt

— Gematsu (@gematsu) December 26, 2019

The Banjo-Kazooie remake also fell through.
Terry had almost no popularity outside of Latin America and in hardcore FGC circles.
Right now, the evidence points toward KOS-MOS hard, and until hardER evidence comes to dismiss her, everything else is noise.

 

[Deleted member]

The Banjo-Kazooie remake also fell through.
Terry had almost no popularity outside of Latin America and in hardcore FGC circles.
Right now, the evidence points toward KOS-MOS hard, and until hardER evidence comes to dismiss her, everything else is noise.

Then again, the cancellation of Mega Man Legends 3 had no correlation with his Smash reveal.

 

[crazybenjamin]

Function over form is the type of mentality that killed Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite.

Interesting...Curious to know, what do you mean by "function over form," and how did it affect the game?

 

[Deleted member]

Interesting...Curious to know, what do you mean by "function over form," and how did it affect the game?

Function over form, as I found out, involves designing something for a specific purpose.

For example, a chair. If a chair is designed for sleeping, it must be designed with a longer frame to allow for more relaxation.

 

[crazybenjamin]

Function over form, as I found out, involves designing something for a specific purpose.

For example, a chair. If a chair is designed for sleeping, it must be designed with a longer frame to allow for more relaxation.

I see.
But judging from Sakurai's "it's more important that a character is fun to play" statement, he doesn't seem to agree that "function over form" is bad for the game.

 

[Deleted member]

I see.
But judging from Sakurai's "it's more important that a character is fun to play" statement, he doesn't seem to agree that "function over form" is bad for the game.

Then again, he too knows about the situation and will probably fix it either next DLC (to which I'm super pessimistic about).

 

[scoobymcsnack]

The Banjo-Kazooie remake also fell through.
Terry had almost no popularity outside of Latin America and in hardcore FGC circles.
Right now, the evidence points toward KOS-MOS hard, and until hardER evidence comes to dismiss her, everything else is noise.

I am confused about evidence pointing towards KOS-MOS. Is there anything other than no leaker has said no about her?
Not dismissing her chances, I'm just out of the loop

 

[Deleted member]

I am confused about evidence pointing towards KOS-MOS. Is there anything other than no leaker has said no about her?
Not dismissing her chances, I'm just out of the loop

There were 2 rumors that people believed, that turned out to be false, however when people asked the Leakers they couldn’t disconfirm her as CP5 unlike other characters, there was also a trademark for XS3 back in April 2018 that some people could think is related to smash, and finally videos of a smash mod of her being taken down by Nintendo.

 

[Flyboy]

Interesting...Curious to know, what do you mean by "function over form," and how did it affect the game?

There was a huge issue for Infinite where beloved characters that had been in since the first game such as Wolverine and the other X-Men or Dr. Doom were removed, often replaced with obvious Disney mandates, and when fans called them out on this the community manager for the game (which no one blames exactly, he just had the unenviable task of having to deliver the bad news) tried to justify it with "Well, these characters can do the same thing as these other characters! Think of the characters like functions, these characters can perform the same functions as the ones that were cut!".

In a mascot fighter, even one with good gameplay like MVCI, who the characters are is arguably more important than how they play. So naturally, this did not go over well.

 

[Deleted member]

There was a huge issue for Infinite where beloved characters that had been in since the first game such as Wolverine and the other X-Men or Dr. Doom were removed, often replaced with obvious Disney mandates, and when fans called them out on this the community manager for the game (which no one blames exactly, he just had the unenviable task of having to deliver the bad news) tried to justify it with "Well, these characters can do the same thing as these other characters! Think of the characters like functions, these characters can perform the same functions as the ones that were cut!".

In a mascot fighter, even one with good gameplay like MVCI, who the characters are is arguably more important than how they play. So naturally, this did not go over well.

Yeah, you basically explained it really well.

 

[DoctorProctor]

I would love Ms. Pac-Man as an echo, and I think Lara Croft deserves to get in.

 

[MaddaD]

The Banjo-Kazooie remake also fell through.

The Banjo Kazooie remake never had a confirmation that it was in development

Terry had almost no popularity outside of Latin America and in hardcore FGC circles.

It's not like he's one of SNK's most iconic and known characters or anything. Terry is isn't well compared to today's mainline fighting games, but hardly "no popularity".

You can say the same thing about KOS-MOS given that the only people who would even recognize her was from a niche PS2 series that got cut halfway through before Xenoblade threw her a bone.

Right now, the evidence points toward KOS-MOS hard, and until hardER evidence comes to dismiss her, everything else is noise.

Your evidence isn't concrete. I would love KOS-MOS as much as you, but broaden your horizons, my dude.

 

[KatKit]

I am confused about evidence pointing towards KOS-MOS. Is there anything other than no leaker has said no about her?
Not dismissing her chances, I'm just out of the loop

The evidence isn't pointing towards anyone right now, but I can at least explain why KOS-MOS would be interesting and a viable Bandai Namco candidate. Most of us are expecting at least one more Bandai Namco rep, because of their impact on the industry, very close relationship with Nintendo, and co-development role in Smash Ultimate.

With Bandai Namco's main mascot already in Smash, it's possible that they would opt for a less anticipated, yet still hype-inducing pick like KOS-MOS. I mention this because Bandai Namco crossovers are pretty ridiculous. Soul Calibur's Astaroth was put in a Namco party game, Spawn and Star Wars was in Soul Calibur, Negan and Gon are Tekken characters, etc. They just... don't care. If it seems like a cool idea, they'll most likely roll with it.

With that being said, KOS-MOS is one of THE robot girls in video games; it's an archetype that hasn't been explored yet in Smash. Next, keep in mind that Bandai also make toys. And they've made many KOS-MOS figurines that sell like hotcakes overseas. So, if she had Amiibos, they'd also probably sell effortlessly and in large quantities. I can imagine her selling way more than Heihachi, for example.

Xenoblade (Nintendo) is the spiritual successor to Xenosaga (Bandai Namco), which is where KOS-MOS originates from. KOS-MOS is the face of the franchise. Monolith Soft put her front and center on their 20th Anniversary Commemorative Website. (Fun fact: Naughty Dog couldn't even put Crash Bandicoot on their anniversary celebration because of Activision. I mentioned this to give you an idea of how close and interchangeable she is with both companies involved).

Out of any Xeno character, including Shulk, KOS-MOS is used in crossovers/promotional materials the most. Both Bandai Namco and Monolith Soft love her, and - design, personality, plot, or some combination of all of the above - she's the inspiration for many of the characters we know and love today like Fiora and Elma. I mention all of this because quite a few folks would like another Xenoblade rep. Due to time constraints, we couldn't get Rex and Pyra, but it's possible that Monolith (with the approval of Bandai Namco) put KOS-MOS on the table.

Interestingly enough, some of her cameos are implied as canon appearances because of interdimensional travel shenanigans. Thus, she's lived on past her initial PS2 appearances.

Now, let's list her cameos. She's been in Namco x Capcom, Tales of Hearts, Super Robot Taisen, Project X Zones 1 and 2, and Xenoblade Chronicles 2. She's also been a costume in Soul Calibur 3, Tales of the World Nakiri Dungeon 3, and Tales of Vesperia.

I can imagine Bandai Namco choosing her, especially if they make a Xenosaga HD remake or something. More people are interested in the character, especially after her Xenoblade cameo. It's true that Harada recently stated that the series isn't marketable. However, one way to increase interest in a character? Putting them in Smash.

Now to explain why she'd be a fun pick: the moveset potential. KOS-MOS is a self-classified annihilation weapon, so her abilities are totally bonkers. She has handguns, lasers, hammers, bows, drills, energy wings, gatling guns, shoulder mounted rail cannons, etc. Not only can she morph parts of her body into them because of nanomachines, but she can also summon them from literal hammerspace, and then have more fitted on to her. There's a reason people buy her aforementioned figurines like hotcakes (just look at all of those accessories! That's not even half of it) because she's a one woman army. It's easier to show than tell, so take a look yourself:

Spoiler: Here's more of that moveset

Tl;dr: It might not happen, but it's still possible and a good idea. The decision wouldn't be out of character for Bandai Namco. They could use the opportunity to sell merch. It'd also satisfy many Xenoblade fans, while Smash simultaneously gets the benefit of adding a new franchise. It could promote a series with a dedicated fanbase that have been begging for HD ports, it would bring a new archetype to Smash, and probably one of the more ridiculous ones because she's basically Superwoman (complete with an endless list of weapons and abilities).

 

[Coolboy]

right now the 5th DLC character discussions are a chaotic mess x.x and those youtube videos about it are also just becoming clickbait at this point....
cause everyone is just saying something different,
and tbh i don't believe leakers when it comes to deconfirmed stuff sooooo everyone is possible until there actually is 100% proof shown that they are deconfirmed :l
but i just find it weird Nintendo/Sakurai gives no updates like just tell us when you are gonna reveal it!
cause idk about all of you, but i am just at that point that i wanna know and have it over with, so i can either be super happy or very disappointed/upset depending on who gets revealed.

 

[Deleted member]

right now the 5th DLC character discussions are a chaotic mess x.x and those youtube videos about it are also just becoming clickbait at this point....
cause everyone is just saying something different,
and tbh i don't believe leakers when it comes to deconfirmed stuff sooooo everyone is possible until there actually is 100% proof shown that they are deconfirmed :l
but i just find it weird Nintendo/Sakurai gives no updates like just tell us when you are gonna reveal it!
cause idk about all of you, but i am just at that point that i wanna know and have it over with, so i can either be super happy or very disappointed/upset depending on who gets revealed.

There isn't anyone concrete to believe at this point, as all the higher-ups are too confused as to what to do next.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

The evidence isn't pointing towards anyone right now, but I can at least explain why KOS-MOS would be interesting and a viable Bandai Namco candidate. Most of us are expecting at least one more Bandai Namco rep, because of their impact on the industry, very close relationship with Nintendo, and co-development role in Smash Ultimate.

With Bandai Namco's main mascot already in Smash, it's possible that they would opt for a less anticipated, yet still hype-inducing pick like KOS-MOS. I mention this because Bandai Namco crossovers are pretty ridiculous. Soul Calibur's Astaroth was put in a Namco party game, Spawn and Star Wars was in Soul Calibur, Negan and Gon are Tekken characters, etc. They just... don't care. If it seems like a cool idea, they'll most likely roll with it.

With that being said, KOS-MOS is one of THE robot girl in video games; it's an archetype that hasn't been explored yet in Smash. Next, keep in mind that Bandai also make toys. And they've made many KOS-MOS figurines that sell like hotcakes overseas. So, if she had Amiibos, they'd also probably sell effortlessly and in large quantities. I can imagine her selling way more than Heihachi, for example.

Xenoblade (Nintendo) is the spiritual successor to Xenosaga (Bandai Namco), which is where KOS-MOS originates from. KOS-MOS is the face of the franchise. Monolith Soft put her front and center on their 20th Anniversary Commemorative Website. (Fun fact: Naughty Dog couldn't even put Crash Bandicoot on their anniversary celebration because of Activision. I mentioned this to give you an idea of how close and interchangeable she is with both companies involved).

Out of any Xeno character, including Shulk, KOS-MOS is used in crossovers/promotional materials the most. Both Bandai Namco and Monolith Soft love her, and - design, personality, plot, or some combination of all of the above - she's the inspiration for many of the characters we know and love today like Fiora and Elma. I mention all of this because quite a few folks would like another Xenoblade rep. Due to time conversions, we couldn't get Rex and Pyra, but it's possible that Monolith (with the approval of Bandai Namco) put KOS-MOS on the table.

Interestingly enough, some of her cameos are implied as canon appearances because of interdimensional travel shenanigans. Thus, she's lived on past her initial PS2 appearances.

Now, let's list her cameos. She's been in Namco x Capcom, Tales of Hearts, Super Robot Taisen, Project X Zones 1 and 2, and Xenoblade Chronicles 2. She's also been a costume in Soul Calibur 3, Tales of the World Nakiri Dungeon 3, and Tales of Vesperia.

I can imagine Bandai Namco choosing her, especially if they make a Xenosaga HD remake or something. More people are interested in the character, especially after her Xenoblade cameo. It's true that Harada recently stated that the series isn't marketable. However, one way to increase interest in a character? Putting them in Smash.

Now to explain why she'd be a fun pick: the moveset potential. KOS-MOS is a self-classified annihilation weapon, so her abilities are totally bonkers. She has handguns, lasers, hammers, bows, drills, energy wings, gatling guns, shoulder mounted rail cannons, etc. Not only can she morph parts of her body into them because of nanomachines, but she can also summon them from literal hammerspace, and then have more fitted on to her. There's a reason people buy her aforementioned figurines like hotcakes (just look at all of those accessories! That's not even half of it) because she's a one woman army. It's easier to show than tell, so take a look yourself:

Tl;dr: It might not happen, but it's still possible and a good idea. The decision wouldn't be out of character for Bandai Namco. They could use the opportunity to sell merch. It'd also satisfy many Xenoblade fans, while Smash simultaneously gets the benefit of adding a new franchise. It could promote a series with a dedicated fanbase that have been begging for HD ports, it would bring a new archetype to Smash, and probably one of the more ridiculous ones because she's basically Superwoman (complete with an endless list of weapons and abilities). Now... here's a more detailed explanation (some of this is new, so I didn't completely copy/paste my old response).

You definitely make her sound interesting! Honestly I’d be okay with her getting in, because knowing the smash team, they’d make her awesome. I mean, I wouldn’t go betting money or anything on her getting in, but there’s definitely a chance.
thanks for the info!

 

[Deleted member]

You definitely make her sound interesting! Honestly I’d be okay with her getting in, because knowing the smash team, they’d make her awesome. I mean, I wouldn’t go betting money or anything on her getting in, but there’s definitely a chance.
thanks for the info!

I mean, they did nail most of the DLC Characters on how they played.

 

[crazybenjamin]

"Well, these characters can do the same thing as these other characters! Think of the characters like functions, these characters can perform the same functions as the ones that were cut!".

I'm now reminded of the people who complain about clones in Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm now reminded of the people who complain about clones in Smash.

Eh, moveset clones are okay if they have different qualities that set them apart.

 

[Planet Cool]

I agree that we need more female characters in the Fighter Pass (and more female characters in the game in general), but a teeny tiny pet peeve of mine is when people go, "Oh, there are no female characters in the Pass unless you count Kazooie, I guess."

It bums me out. There's no rule that says female characters have to be human or humanoid to count. Kazooie is a fun character with a lot of personality, and I think it's great that Smash is a game where a talking cartoon bird is coequal with more "serious" human characters.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree that we need more female characters in the Fighter Pass (and more female characters in the game in general), but a teeny tiny pet peeve of mine is when people go, "Oh, there are no female characters in the Pass unless you count Kazooie, I guess."

It bums me out. There's no rule that says female characters have to be human or humanoid to count. Kazooie is a fun character with a lot of personality, and I think it's great that Smash is a game where a talking cartoon bird is coequal with more "serious" human characters.

I feel ya, however no one in the right mind is trying to make the argument that Kazooie should fit the bill for the female character in the pass because a lot of people want a standalone solo female character, myself included but I try to keep gender out of the equation when it comes to my list of wants. My pet peeve is how quick some people are to dismiss her as if she's nonexistent when some folks were making the claim "there's no females in the fighters' pass". It's obviously not true but I'm not gonna be one to try to convince anybody that she count as the female rep because that's not true either due to the fact that she's a part of a duo and not a standalone female.

In short, does Kazooie count as a female character in the fighters pass? Of course.
Does she count as a female standalone rep? Hell no.

Unfortunately, I have a hard time seeing a female being #5. We should remember though that the FP isn't the be-all-end-all of DLC because if that's the case, we wouldn't be getting post-pass DLC.

 

[Deleted member]

Unfortunately, I have a hard time seeing a female being #5. We should remember though that the FP isn't the be-all-end-all of DLC because if that's the case, we wouldn't be getting post-pass DLC.

Every single day just passes by and I'm having a hard time asessing my mindset should FP#5 be male. And then, if the next season does have it, but is locked to first parties, then I cannot help but lament over the lost potential of a third-party female rep. At least we could get a female, that's how. But almost every single speculated character has majorly been male, and it poisons my mind just thinking about it.

Sometimes I feel lucky that one of my fave franchises (Fire Emblem) does way better in terms of female reps; Heroes has tons of them. But in all seriousness, when I look at other fighting games that offer female reps as DLC, I cannot help but feel jealous. To think that one of the best fighting games has one of the worst female ratios is disappointing to say the least.

People will soon notice this and they'll probably go on social media, but I feel it won't change anything.

Sigh...I just want everything revealed so that I coukd decide whether to quit and focus on another fighting game or stay.

 

[osby]

I agree that we need more female characters in the Fighter Pass (and more female characters in the game in general), but a teeny tiny pet peeve of mine is when people go, "Oh, there are no female characters in the Pass unless you count Kazooie, I guess."

It bums me out. There's no rule that says female characters have to be human or humanoid to count. Kazooie is a fun character with a lot of personality, and I think it's great that Smash is a game where a talking cartoon bird is coequal with more "serious" human characters.

I don't think people exclude Kazooie because she's not serious or a human, people have no problem with Isabelle or Inkling in that regard.

It's mainly because she's less of a fighter by herself and more like a weapon who gets slammed around by Banjo.

 

[Deleted member]

The 80-20 ratio on the poll brings a small smile to my face.

While I'm pessimistic about Season 2, it's quite good seeing the support. Though I'm curious as to why there is a sizable "No" portion. Would you be so kind to explain? In not less than 10 sentences?

 

[NintenRob]

So one iconic female video game character I don't see brought up enough is Carmen Sandiego. How would you feel if she got in?

 

[Deleted member]

So one iconic female video game character I don't see brought up enough is Carmen Sandiego. How would you feel if she got in?

I would breathe a sigh of relief that she got in, and I would take the oppurtunity to learn more about her franchise, as I have always done.

 

[Night Gale]

I know someone irl who wasted almost 90 f***ing dollars to buy a red hat, faux leather bodysuit, and red coat to dress up as the bish for a Halloween party, I s*** you not. She would be ecstatic. I would be happy for her. It would also please a different person here named GK, who deserves to be right for once.

As as for me, I never asked for the bish, but I wouldn't disapprove of the decision.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

It's mainly because she's less of a fighter by herself and more like a weapon who gets slammed around by Banjo.

Banjo is as much as a vehicle for Kazooie as Kazooie is a weapon for Banjo. I don't see the problem.