#UltimateDLCSoMale: The Female DLC Character Discussion

[Deleted member]

I'd say (if all leaks are horse****) Lara Croft has the best chance overall for female representation. This is for both FP5 and Post-Pass.

For Sakurai to overlook her would be a disappointment for us as well.

 

[Ben Holt]

For Sakurai to overlook her would be a disappointment for us as well.

I think it would be more incumbent on Square Enix.
They got us Cloud and Hero, but they are still very protective of their IPs.
Essentially, it's not a two person deal. Every character, set piece, spirit, music track, etc. has a group of people that get paid every time someone publishes that media.
That's why we didn't get too many Final Fantasy music pieces. Composers, performers, and everyone involved has to agree to a deal.

Ironically, it seems that Banjo was the simplest negotiation due to everyone involved with him already wanting a deal.

Super Meat Boy's creators once literally offered to license their character to Smash for free in an open letter to Nintendo.
That is why I often say that a character needs to meet some sort of baseline of popularity to be Smash-eligible. If there weren't a vetting process, Smash would be just a giant mashup of Indie characters looking for free advertising.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Honestly I don't understand why Nintendo is still trying to work with Square. Think of all the people who have to work overtime to make Smash DLC characters and Square is offering them comparatively minimal content. Now that we have both FF and DQ in the game the only other character I can think of that Square owns and would make a good DLC newcomer is Geno.

What Nintendo should understand is that they could get more money and make more people happy by working with a company that they're on friendly terms with and is willing to offer them decent amounts of content. Microsoft practically handed them Banjo & Kazooie as a birthday gift. SNK simply said "OK" to 50 songs. Square said "2 songs, take it or leave it." If I were in Nintendo's position, I wouldn't ask Square for more content anytime soon.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly I don't understand why Nintendo is still trying to work with Square. Think of all the people who have to work overtime to make Smash DLC characters and Square is offering them comparatively minimal content. Now that we have both FF and DQ in the game the only other character I can think of that Square owns and would make a good DLC newcomer is Geno.

What Nintendo should understand is that they could get more money and make more people happy by working with a company that they're on friendly terms with and is willing to offer them decent amounts of content. Microsoft practically handed them Banjo & Kazooie as a birthday gift. SNK simply said "OK" to 50 songs. Square said "2 songs, take it or leave it." If I were in Nintendo's position, I wouldn't ask Square for more content anytime soon.

Thing is Square has a good amount of popular Franchises compared to other companies, if Nintendo wants to put a specific Square character they'll try to negotiate for that character even if it means not getting much. If you think Geno makes the only good Square character left then you're missing out on more more well known popular characters.

 

[Night Gale]

SquareEnix recommended and gave the approval for the four Dragon Quest Hero alternate costumes; Masahiro Sakurai only intended to include Luminary. The reason they seem stingy with their music is because of licensing; the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest composers own the rights to the songs.

Sakurai noted how the company is cooperative and he's about to do another livestream with a bunch of SquareEnix employees. Keep in mind that negotiations are easy af when you're surrounded by people who speak your language, live nearby, and hang out with regularly. Companies are one thing, but you can't friendlier than goddamn peer groups.

I don't drink the Geno kool-aid but there are a s***load of other SquareEnix series that I can imagine getting in one day.

 

[Deleted member]

To be honest I don't get this Geno fetish some people have.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Last I checked though Lara Croft is no longer Square or at the very least not fully no?

 

[Deleted member]

Any reason why Lesley is so determined to have a Female character as CP5?

 

[Night Gale]

My guess is that she would rather have a woman sooner rather than later. If you look back at the time of the topic's creation, future dlc wasn't promised. We don't know wtf they're going to do after the pass but it would be a missed opportunity if the focus shifts to 1st party again.

 

[Deleted member]

Any reason why Lesley is so determined to have a Female character as CP5?

Because there is a small probability that there would not be any in the future. Sakurai is busy handling most of what the fanbase wants, and since most of these wants are male, then I would fear his decisions. In addition, having CP5 be male, then have CP6 be male as well would be a smack to my face.

My guess is that she would rather have a woman sooner rather than later. If you look back at the time of the topic's creation, future dlc wasn't promised. We don't know wtf they're going to do after the pass but it would be missed opportunity if the focus shifts to 1st party again.

Another reason. This is the perfect time for Sakurai to put new female 3rd-parties akin to Bayonetta in Smash 4, but that time is...somewhat mishandled in terms of representation. While I could not ignore Kazooie, having her as the closest female rep is a shame because of her presentation as a Smash character. There are so many possible female third party reps that can be added and it would be a BIG missed oppurtunity.

Assuming that they go back to 1st parties and never look back, I would say that they missed out on A LOT.

 

[Deleted member]

But why do you a female character in general instead of a specific character?

 

[Deleted member]

But why do you a female character in general instead of a specific character?

Demographics and representation. The entire pass, with the exception of Kazooie, has been male-coded, and a female character would bring something different compared to the ones we have.

 

[Deleted member]

Demographics and representation. The entire pass, with the exception of Kazooie, has been male-coded, and a female character would bring something different compared to the ones we have.

Fair enough, but is there a more personal reason other than that? Seems you’re kinda passionate about it.

 

[Deleted member]

Fair enough, but is there a more personal reason other than that? Seems you’re kinda passionate about it.

Largely because I also like playing female characters. Adding a new one would definitely be something new and worthy to try out. Playing males sometimes...depends. But in all honesty, yes. Both to represent us females and give us someone new that isn't just another guy.

 

[Deleted member]

Largely because I also like playing female characters. Adding a new one would definitely be something new and worthy to try out. Playing males sometimes...depends. But in all honesty, yes. Both to represent us females and give us someone new that isn't just another guy.

Would you be fine if it was a female character you don’t like?

 

[Deleted member]

Would you be fine if it was a female character you don’t like?

I don't have any "female characters I don't like". Anyone is fine in my book as long as it is someone of particular interest.

Another reason I might add, is to be in line with other major fighting games. Recent Street Fighter V DLC gave us Lucia, Poison, and a female Seth (who looks so damn cool). Tekken 7 S3 at the very least gave us Zafina. And if that's not all, S1 of Soul Calibur VI DLC was all-female. DBFZ may not have any, but it's due to source material.

Smash is long overdue.

 

[Troykv]

I don't have any "female characters I don't like". Anyone is fine in my book as long as it is someone of particular interest.

Another reason I might add, is to be in line with other major fighting games. Recent Street Fighter V DLC gave us Lucia, Poison, and a female Seth (who looks so damn cool). Tekken 7 S3 at the very least gave us Zafina. And if that's not all, S1 of Soul Calibur VI DLC was all-female. DBFZ may not have any, but it's due to source material.

Smash is long overdue.

And despite source material they managed to put all two female characters that fight in DBZ (18/Lazuli and Videl) and create a new one.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't have any "female characters I don't like". Anyone is fine in my book as long as it is someone of particular interest.

Another reason I might add, is to be in line with other major fighting games. Recent Street Fighter V DLC gave us Lucia, Poison, and a female Seth (who looks so damn cool). Tekken 7 S3 at the very least gave us Zafina. And if that's not all, S1 of Soul Calibur VI DLC was all-female. DBFZ may not have any, but it's due to source material.

Smash is long overdue.

Huh. Well then good luck I guess.

 

[Spongeboob]

Demographics and representation. The entire pass, with the exception of Kazooie, has been male-coded, and a female character would bring something different compared to the ones we have.

Demographics

Spoiler

>popular with women
>obligatory Shill Emblem rep
>instead of sword he uses a spear
YEAH, he's in.

I'd still prefer Byleth though.

 

[kool2419]

The roster has alot of males already so it`s only fair that we get some female characters to spice it up hopefully 3 or 5.

 

[Deleted member]

The roster has alot of males already so it`s only fair that we get some female characters to spice it up hopefully 3 or 5.

I mean yeah. We're long overdue!

 

[True Blue Warrior]

We don't know wtf they're going to do after the pass but it would be a missed opportunity if the focus shifts to 1st party again.

I disagree. I think there are a lot of first-party characters that could be interesting fighters.

 

[KatKit]

I disagree. I think there are a lot of first-party characters that could be interesting fighters.

This is true. There are several awesome 1st party gals to choose from, and I and many others have listed them many times in the topic. However... Aside from male/female avatar pairings and duos, Samus and Bayonetta are the only women who are standalone main characters in the entire roster. More importantly, part of the reason that there are still so many awesome 1st party gals to choose from is because a lot of them have been overlooked. Smash has historically put women on the backburner and old Nintendo practices are partially to blame. Basically, 3rd parties help level the playing field.

Furthermore, when you look beyond Nintendo, there's just way more iconic leading ladies (especially when it comes to indie games, for example). Although we'd have our Elma, (K)achi, Officer Howard, Ribbon Girl (and other ARMS gals), Anna (and various other Fire Emblem gals), Medusa, Toadette, Barabara the Bat, Jill Dozer, Dixie Kong, Style Savvy rep, Ayumi Tachibana, Yuri Kozukata, etc. We'd lose our Carmen Sandiego, Chun-li/Sakura, 2B, Estelle Bright, Kat, Amaterasu, Katalina, Jade (Beyond Good and Evil), Shepard, Morrigan, Tracer, Reimu, Sarah Kerrigan, Miriam, Ciri, Faith Conners, Arle Nadja, Ellie, Bella Goth, KOS-MOS, Joanna Dark, Elizabeth, Heart Aino, Cooking Mama, Yumi, Shantae, Chell, Sakura Shinguji, Aloy, Gris, Lara Croft, Jill Valentine, Sophitia/Cassandra Alexandra, etc. Leading ladies from critically acclaimed games, many of which from games considered some of the best games in their genre who are in various "Greatest of all time" lists.

The inclusion of 3rd parties opened the doors for a lot of awesome leading ladies and it'd be a heck of a lot better than what we've been getting in previous Smash titles. Thus far, the only woman we've gotten so far is a bird that's used a weapon. I think that is what she means by missed opportunity.

 

[MaddaD]

Spoiler

>popular with women
>obligatory Shill Emblem rep
>instead of sword he uses a spear
YEAH, he's in.
View attachment 253426
I'd still prefer Byleth though.

I'd gladly be fine giving up my KOS-MOS dream if it means that this beautiful man gets in. God I want him so bad.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Honestly like the whole gender thing, I'm on the mindset that it doesn't matter to me if they 1st or 3rd party. As long as they are video game characters that can provide fun and unique move sets to the table, having big named characters is nice but seeing some underdogs join in the fun would be nice too.

 

[Neoxon]

Honestly like the whole gender thing, I'm on the mindset that it doesn't matter to me if they 1st or 3rd party. As long as they are video game characters that can provide fun and unique move sets to the table, having big named characters is nice but seeing some underdogs join in the fun would be nice too.

So you agree that there should be diversity in the game as long as they're fun to play.

 

[Troykv]

Honestly like the whole gender thing, I'm on the mindset that it doesn't matter to me if they 1st or 3rd party. As long as they are video game characters that can provide fun and unique move sets to the table, having big named characters is nice but seeing some underdogs join in the fun would be nice too.

The fun is the most important factor after all, but everything else can help a bit.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

So you agree that there should be diversity in the game as long as they're fun to play.

Well diversity is fine but I don't think it's a big issue at least regarding Ultimate currently.

 

[Neoxon]

Well diversity is fine but I don't think it's a big issue at least regarding Ultimate currently.

Out of 81 characters so far, only 15 of them are primarily women (note that I'm also counting Mii Gunner & Dark Samus in said 15, in case you're curious about how my number differs from GameXplain's 13). Considering that Smash Ultimate currently has the 3rd worst female fighter ratio in modern fighting games, I'd say it's a pretty big issue.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Out of 81 characters so far, only 15 of them are primarily women (note that I'm also counting Mii Gunner & Dark Samus in said 15, in case you're curious about how my number differs from GameXplain's 13). Considering that Smash Ultimate currently has the 3rd worst female fighter ratio in modern fighting games, I'd say it's a pretty big issue.

Maybe it's an issue for you but I don't problem with it. Fifteen is still a decent amount to me besides I still don't see how is it a big deal.

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe it's an issue for you but I don't problem with it. Fifteen is still a decent amount to me besides I still don't see how is it a big deal.

Ratio is still a big thing. It's like comparing the amount to say, MVCI. It's technically the same percentage.

 

[Neoxon]

Maybe it's an issue for you but I don't problem with it. Fifteen is still a decent amount to me besides I still don't see how is it a big deal.

15 may sound like a decent number, but that's 15 out of 81 characters. I'm more talking about the ratio in this case, as fighting games don't have the same number of characters across all of them.

 

[Spongeboob]

Out of 81 characters so far, only 15 of them are primarily women (note that I'm also counting Mii Gunner & Dark Samus in said 15, in case you're curious about how my number differs from GameXplain's 13). Considering that Smash Ultimate currently has the 3rd worst female fighter ratio in modern fighting games, I'd say it's a pretty big issue.

Why is it an issue though?

 

[Deleted member]

Why is it an issue though?

It means that Smash Ultimate has a poor amount of ideal representation.

 

[Spongeboob]

It means that Smash Ultimate has a poor amount of ideal representation.

And that's important because...

 

[Mogisthelioma]

And that's important because...

Because some people prioritize basic demographic representation over game design. In truth, I don't see it as an important issue at all, but I understand why some people are uncomfortable with it, and I support the idea of having more females, simply for the sake of removing homogeny. The problem is that Smash has never (and will never) be about gender (or racial/ethnic/sexual) diversity, so it's unlikely the devs will bat an eye toward the so-called "issue."

 

[Ice-N-Space]

And that's important because...

Because it would be like having 81 female and 15 male characters you'll be missing out on some great characters. Right now if someone whats a character that happens to be female then their going to have to wait a long time as Smash is a game that's male first female maybe and that's not right especially in a game about all-stars.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Because it would be like having 81 female and 15 male characters you'll be missing out on some great characters. Right now if someone whats a character that happens to be female then their going to have to wait a long time as Smash is a game that's male first female maybe and that's not right especially in a game about all-stars.

Well when you consider of these all stars came from the 80-90 era of game (mostly when games were featuring male protagonist) it's somewhat understandable from my perspective besides it's not like they choose characters specifically for diversity.

Characters are usually chosen for history, popularity, abilities or the occasional unexpected choice no one saw coming.

 

[Ben Holt]

-sips tea-
KOS-MOS has still yet to be denied by the leak gods.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Out of 81 characters so far, only 15 of them are primarily women (note that I'm also counting Mii Gunner & Dark Samus in said 15, in case you're curious about how my number differs from GameXplain's 13). Considering that Smash Ultimate currently has the 3rd worst female fighter ratio in modern fighting games, I'd say it's a pretty big issue.

Eh, it's not an issue. You are taking a game that is about bringing together Nintendo's franchises alongside 3rd party guests and making it about yourself. It only becomes an issue for people who have too much free time who choose to project their own sociopolitical ideas into Smash, a game that is developed in Japan, a country that hasn't adopted the radical progressive values from modern western society. If making a movement demanding for a game studio from a foreign country with a vastly different culture than yours to give in into your own social agenda in the name of 'representation' isn't considered narcissistic, then I don't know what it is. Clearly a problem stemming from people deciding that they are a little too special.

Secondly, people here keep comparing Smash to other fighting games, but Smash is NOT like most fighting games. Games like Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat make up their own characters in whatever way they want (Yuri from SFIV was created because they wanted to fill the quota of a korean fighter and a female villain); Smash borrows existing characters from other gaming franchises, most of them being industry icons. I don't care if other fighting games have a 50/50 gender ratio, Smash operates in a different manner when implementing new fighters. You know why is that? Because they don't add anyone based on gender. And that's not even getting into games like Dead or Alive or Soul Calibur where many female characters exist for the sake of fanservice and eye candy for it's mostly male audience.

When Smash started as Sakurai's and Iwata's pet project, the demo build they showed to Miyamoto had Mario, DK, Samus and Fox. Despite increasing in scope in recent years, the game was and still is about Nintendo characters battling each other. You are asking for demographic representation in a game that has a green dinosaur, an electric rat, a gorilla, an armored bounty hunter, a pink balloon, plumbers, psychic children, anthropomorphic space animals, a bear with a bird in his backpack, a space goddess, a ninja frog, a wrestling tiger, a purple dragon, a blonde dude with a huge sword, a potted plant, a bipedal crocodile wearing a crow, etc. When you put it that way, the idea of 'muh representation' just gets even more ridiculous.

Smash already has diversity in forms that aren't based on gender. You can play as a Piranha Plant or you can play as robot who fires lasers from his eyes.

So this "issue" is nothing worth taking seriously as Nintendo and Sakurai will just do their thing unimpeded by the cries of representation.

Because it would be like having 81 female and 15 male characters you'll be missing out on some great characters. Right now if someone whats a character that happens to be female then their going to have to wait a long time as Smash is a game that's male first female maybe and that's not right especially in a game about all-stars.

Tell me something, smart guy. If those characters we are missing out on are great, why is being female their basic requirement? Wouldn't they be great regardless, like Samus and Bayonetta?

And what makes you think that Smash is "males first, females later" when we've specifically discussed that Sakurai and Nintendo DON'T use gender as a criteria when choosing fighters?

I know you will evade my questions because you see the act of refuting others' opinions as 'disrespectful', but I just wanted to throw them out here for good measure.