#UltimateDLCSoMale: The Female DLC Character Discussion

[QueenTiger]

This is pretty malicious but I'll bite lol.

First off, yeah you're absolutely correct. @Khao did hit the nail on the head and I essentially agree with everything he pointed out. He's not wrong and it is a very informative post he made. The only difference between him and myself is his perception of the duo is a little different than mine, and that's okay. It pretty much dabbles in the realm of subjectivity already considering it's a video game and video games are a form of media so he'll have his impressions and I will have mine. For example, he said he views her as a sidekick or as a supporting character. I don't get that impression at all when I play the games. I view them both almost on an equal basis and I stand by it 100% but at the same time, giving Banjo a little more leniency because yes, he is the main character but that doesn't discredit Kazooie in regards to gameplay and what she offers either. He is absolutely correct on just about everything he laid out so I cannot dispute it.

But I want to clarify some things because obviously the context of my views and rebuttals have been missed and you have jumped to the "you just don't get it" conclusion. So here I go:

- I never claimed or made the argument that BK is a fully fledged female character or should be even be remotely close to be considered as one. Thing is though, they're not exclusively an all-male character either.

- I never advocated the idea that since Kazooie is a character who is part of the FP (granted, not by herself) then that means that there shouldn't be more room for more females. As I told Lesley: If anyone were to make that claim I would be the first to disavow because I do not agree with that sentiment one bit. I've mentioned this a couple of times but seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

- I never said or even implied for that matter that Kazooie's inclusion with Banjo should be enough to fit the role as the female quota people would like to see in regards to wanting a female character. This is another asinine view that I do not have or condone.

- In regards to her presence, I never once compared it to Banjo's. I only acknowledged that her presence is noteworthy and not something that shouldn't be overlooked whether it's in relation to Smash or the BK games. The only things I compared her and Banjo to were strictly about dialogue and personality.

My point at the end of the day for the 100th time is that Kazooie is just as much a part of the pass as Banjo is. Ruling her out as just a tool is unfair and making the claim that the FP so far is completely male-orientated only is not true. Does that clear things up or do I still "not get it"?

Oh I get your point, and I never claimed you personally were saying that because Kazooie is in we don't need another female character. I have seen others say it, hence why I addressed it when she was brought up.
Let's go with that, Kazooie is just as much a part of the pass as Banjo is. Let's go one further and count her as her own character. That would leave 5 characters so far on the pass, 4 male and 1 female (80/20) split. Now, this would back up the claim that the FP is very male-oriented and the hashtag being "So Male" would be correct. Obviously, 50/50 isn't gonna happen, but it is interesting that it is such a huge gap when there are plenty of strong female representatives they could add and have been requested since Smash 4 (or maybe before, but that is when I got into smash).
You can passionately argue that Kazooie isn't a weapon, but it's simply not true. Granted I haven't played the BK games and don't really care to - not my thing. However, like has been said, in the context of a fighting game like Smash she is a weapon (used by the male). You can try to play me of as being "sexist" if you'd like, but I don't see how that is the case.If I was saying "she is a woman therefore she's a tool" or whatever then you'd have a point. However, I wasn't saying that, I was stating an observation I and others had about what is so far the only female representation on this pass. People (in general) can also say that video games aren't politics all they want, but like has been said just because they are separate doesn't mean it's black and white without overlap.

 

[Spongeboob]

Spoiler

Okay, so I've got more to say about Kazooie. Keep in mind that Banjo & Kazooie were created in a different time when sociopolitics and "representation" weren't as talked about as nowadays, for better or worse. While I wouldn't call Burger & King a "completely female fighter", it's not like they're "100% male" either. I decided to play Bonnie-Klyde for myself, and it's kind of enjoyable, but that's besides the point. While for the most part Ballista is the character you control, he wouldn't be able to do much without Krakatoa. The two work as a team. She's the one to tell Banjo something like "HEY BANJO YOURE SISTERS GETTING KIDNAPPED LETS GO ON AN ADVENTURE" or something, whereas Banjo keeps Kazooie in check as he is more mellow than her. Kazooie helps the duo get by in the air, whereas Banjo can get by on land and sea. Some may interpret her getting physically abused as "objectifying" her or something, but considering that men are almost exclusively the ones to go fight and die in wars, that could be considered a step in the right direction for feminism as it is showing that a female is willing to risk her life for the greater good. Kazooie wouldn't work without Banjo, and Banjo wouldn't work without Kazooie. I'd say that Kazooie is kind of comparable to Daxter or Clank as a character. I wouldn't call the treatment of Kazooie sexist. Whether or not it's the opposite of sexist is debatable. But yeah. I think it's 50/50 with Banjo & Kazooie. Not sure if this is relevant to the topic though, so I'll shut up for now.

Oh, and as far as newcomers go, I think the following for CP#5:
Wright > Arle > Tracer > Byleth; Arle = Travis.
I was gonna say Sora, but Sabi just said it (likely) wasn't him.

 

[1FC0]

In the context of a fighting game, she's essentially a weapon - an extension of Banjo's attacks.

You could also view it this way: Banjo is essentially a vehicle — an extension of Kazooie's movements.

Personally I think they are equal. Kazooie is Banjo's weapon and Banjo is Kazooie's vehicle. Is Kazooie to Banjo what Toad is to Peach or is Banjo to Kazooie what Koopa Clown Car is to Bowser Jr.?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Thought this belonged here. Disappointing amount of dislikes, as is expected for Youtube when it comes to this stuff, but we're still in the majority.

 

[Spongeboob]

Thought this belonged here. Disappointing amount of dislikes, as is expected for Youtube when it comes to this stuff, but we're still in the majority.

Eh... I can kind of see where the dislikes are coming from (and for the most part, I agree). Took a look at some of the comments. In my opinion, people are making too big of an issue out of the gender imbalance on the roster. Not a lot of people disagree with the choices mentioned per se, but they see it as forced diversity because the characters that are brought up are brought up in the video for the sake of "more women". Again, I'm not saying that's the only reason why anyone would want a character who is female, but people who bring up the gender imbalance on the roster usually are the ones to do that.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Eh... I can kind of see where the dislikes are coming from (and for the most part, I agree). Took a look at some of the comments. In my opinion, people are making too big of an issue out of the gender imbalance on the roster. Not a lot of people disagree with the choices mentioned per se, but they see it as forced diversity because the characters that are brought up are brought up in the video for the sake of "more women". Again, I'm not saying that's the only reason why anyone would want a character who is female, but people who bring up the gender imbalance on the roster usually are the ones to do that.
View attachment 250530

I don't really want every single character on this list either, but I've seen plenty of stupid male choices for Smash that are even worse than the worst of these.

 

[Spongeboob]

I don't really want every single character on this list either, but I've seen a lot of stupid male choices for Smash that are even worse than the worst of these.

I agree with that. Replace 'women' in "WE NEED MORE WOMEN" with something else (such as 'villains' or '(insert genre here) characters') and you'll get similar results.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I agree with that. Replace 'women' in "WE NEED MORE WOMEN" and you'll get similar results.

If I can deal with boatloads of requests for male characters that make absolutely no sense on a daily basis (won't be naming anyone specific, but you probably all know some), then I can deal with a few female characters that aren't that high up on my priority list if it means having a list with a huge percentage of my most wanteds.

 

[1FC0]

Maybe we should stop the male vs female debate and find a middle ground. How about boycotting for Regigigas or Magnezone? The last genderless DLC we got was the very first DLC in Smash history and it would not surprise me if the roster has even less genderless characters than it does female characters.

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe we should stop the male vs female debate and find a middle ground. How about boycotting for Regigigas or Magnezone? The last genderless DLC we got was the very first DLC in Smash history and it would not surprise me if the roster has even less genderless characters than it does female characters.

The debate...has long been here in this thread ever since. The middle ground? Now that's something I'd save for a rainy day.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Maybe we should stop the male vs female debate and find a middle ground. How about boycotting for Regigigas or Magnezone? The last genderless DLC we got was the very first DLC in Smash history and it would not surprise me if the roster has even less genderless characters than it does female characters.

Those two characters would feel more forced than 95% of the characters in the video which says a lot, so I guess I found a reason why I didn't mind it as much.

Also Piranha Plant is genderless, and one can make the argument that all the avatar characters that are both genders are neutral.

 

[Spongeboob]

Maybe we should stop the male vs female debate and find a middle ground. How about boycotting for Regigigas or Magnezone? The last genderless DLC we got was the very first DLC in Smash history and it would not surprise me if the roster has even less genderless characters than it does female characters.

The debate...has long been here in this thread ever since. The middle ground? Now that's something I'd save for a rainy day.

Those two characters would feel more forced than 95% of the characters in the video which says a lot, so I guess I found a reason why I didn't mind it as much.

Also Piranha Plant is genderless, and one can make the argument that all the avatar characters that are both genders are neutral.

Byleth. There, problem solved.

 

[Deleted member]

Byleth. There, problem solved.

Depends on where they set the default alt. Male or female are most likely choices.

 

[1FC0]

Also Piranha Plant is genderless,

I forgot about Piranha Plant. So there are actually 2 genderless characters in Smash DLC; both introduced as the very first DLC in their respective game. I see a pattern here… Still, Piranha Plant is not part of the pass so the pass still needs a genderless character.

 

[Spongeboob]

Depends on where they set the default alt. Male or female are most likely choices.

Not really IMO. I just hope they get to WHIP out their sword.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Since Daisy is acting as a placeholder here for FP5, does that mean we are finally getting a female character in the DLC lineup? I hope so.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

So something's just come up but this may be the speculation community seeing Giants where there are windmills.

【きょうの思い出】
『スマブラSP』の発売から1周年！
みなさん、いつも応援ありがとうございます。#スマブラSP #スマブラ画 #スマブラSP1周年 pic.twitter.com/hIzJpXukqh

— 大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ【スマブラ公式】 (@SmashBrosJP) December 6, 2019

The final picture has Mario with the DLC characters plus Daisy. Is she a placeholder for the last pass character? Could it be another princess?

 

[Spongeboob]

I don't think it means anything. However, if, for whatever reason, they're hinting towards the next fighter with this...

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I don't think it means anything. However, if, for whatever reason, they're hinting towards the next fighter with this...

Well if the shared theme is fighting in a dress that bodes well for Saber and Katalina.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

This could be a hint, it could be not. Let's just wait and be patience and see how things turn out.

 

[Deleted member]

Well if the shared theme is fighting in a dress that bodes well for Saber and Katalina.

Yeah, because those two are what comes to my mind with that pic.

All I can say is, with some people leaning on a female, while others are skeptic....


WE ARE AT THE ENDGAME NOW.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Yeah, because those two are what comes to my mind with that pic.

All I can say is, with some people leaning on a female, while others are skeptic....


WE ARE AT THE ENDGAME NOW.

Now I have to post this

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Sakurai walks into the Microsoft theater at VGA.

Crowd: HOLY ****!!!

Sakurai: I'm sorry to announce, but we are taking a one year break from the production of the DLC and post pending the announcement of FP5 for that time.

Crowd: WHAT THE ****!!!

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai walks into the Microsoft theater at VGA.

Crowd: HOLY ****!!!

Sakurai: I'm sorry to announce, but we are taking a one year break from the production of the DLC and post pending the announcement of FP5 for that time.

Crowd: WHAT THE ****!!!

I don't want ti be at the end of that shtick. No...EVERYONE here doesn't want to be at the end of that shtick. And if nothing gets announced, it'll be a complete breakdown of social order!

was that a Spongebob reference?

I just had to. It fits the mood.

 

[Spongeboob]

Sakurai walks into the Microsoft theater at VGA.

Crowd: HOLY ****!!!

Sakurai: I'm sorry to announce, but we are taking a one year break from the production of the DLC and post pending the announcement of FP5 for that time.

Crowd: WHAT THE ****!!!

I'd love for that to happen actually.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd love for that to happen actually.

Then everyone in the Smash community is decked out in Mad Max gear.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I'd love for that to happen actually.

Are you serious? I would be kind of upset about it. I would take a one long year vacation from Smashboards if that happened.

 

[Deleted member]

Are you serious? I would be kind of upset about it. I would take a one long year vacation from Smashboards if that happened.

Then I go back, and it's literally a virtual warzone. Like the Smash community by the time I joined. T'was the end of the Grinch leak saga.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Then I go back, and it's literally a virtual warzone. Like the Smash community by the time I joined. T'was the end of the Grinch leak saga.

The GameFaqs overlords would swoop in and take this place over with no news for a year and argument after argument going on for a year lol! They would send their spies over here, yet I think they're already doing that now.

 

[Spongeboob]

Are you serious? I would be kind of upset about it. I would take a one long year vacation from Smashboards if that happened.

Yes and no. I think it's a good idea that the devs and the world take a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong break from new Smash content so then other "big hitters", especially Nintendo games, get more attention. They'd also get time to work on a different project. But I would kind of miss the DLC discussion. It's kind of fun. On the other hand, the reaction we'd get from such a statement would be comedy gold.

 

[Deleted member]

Whatever the circumstances...all we know is that TGA will be our biggest requiem yet.

 

[Spongeboob]

Okay, suppose Challenger Pack #5 is a female that isn't Arle or anyone disconfirmed by Vergeben/Sabi/Nintendo. Additionally, they must be from an unrepresented third-party series and (of course) be from a video game. Oh, and one more thing: they must be completely (or mainly) female. (Something like Rosalina & Luma if it's a duo fighter.) Who would you choose/who do you think it would be? Also, what stage would they come with? How about their Spirit Board? OFC they'd need music, so what remixes and songs would they have?

 

[Deleted member]

Holy crap...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/78218788?jumpto=53#53

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Holy crap...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/78218788?jumpto=53#53

Call me stubborn but I'm not quick to believe leaks, I'm remaining sceptical to the official announcement. That being said it would be crazy if that many companies are disconfirmed.

 

[Deleted member]

Remaining possible female reps now include: Saber, Chell
..damn who else?

But Sakurai...if faith is still here...please be a female character PLEASE.

 

[1FC0]

But Sakurai...if faith is still here...please be a female character PLEASE.

Sakurai may not be Captain Falcon levels of manly but he's clearly a man.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Remaining possible female reps now include: Saber, Chell
..damn who else?

But Sakurai...if faith is still here...please be a female character PLEASE.

Well there's Katalina from Granblue, Hornet the Spider Warrior Princess from Hollow Knight, Miriam from Bloodstained, Cooking Mama from Dark Souls and if we get nuts, Kat from Gravity Rush.

 

[Deleted member]

Kat from Gravity Rush.

Everyone is talking about Sony in the Newcomer Thread, though all are calling dibs on Kratos.

We're gonna have a loooonngg day and night here.

FP5 is female, we rest. FP5 is male, give me three days or I'm still bitchin'

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Everyone is talking about Sony in the Newcomer Thread, though all are calling dibs on Kratos.

We're gonna have a loooonngg day and night here.

FP5 is female, we rest. FP5 is male, give me three days or I'm still bitchin'

Call me mad but I don't think it'll be Kratos. He's Sony defcto mascot of the late PS2 and PS3 era but his games were never a big hit in the Asian markets.

The coverart for PSASBR only has Kratos front and center on the US versions and Sackboy is in front of him in every case.

 

[Neoxon]

Holy crap...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/78218788?jumpto=53#53

Imagine believing Vergeben in 2019.

All due respect, Lesley, but Vergeben isn't a reliable source. He has hardly been reliable outside of Smash. And even within Smash, he destroyed what credibility he had a year ago with the Minecraft boss thing.