#UltimateDLCSoMale: The Female DLC Character Discussion

[kool2419]

If someone is trans gender and they don`t feel comfortable playing as a male character then that`s just the way they feel so i don`t see anything wrong with that. I`m male, i`ve been a Peach main since Melee, and i play mostly women in Smash not because of their gender but because if their`s a female character that i like or interested playing as then i`ll choose that character. The reason why i want more female characters in Smash because they are still plenty of them that hasn`t had their turn to shine in Smash yet, and there several of them i want in Smash for awhile now plus i don`t want the female representation to become too overtaken by the many male characters that are already on the roster. So i have no issues about a character`s gender but i apologize to those who do have a serious problem with this.

 

[1FC0]

You seem to have completely misunderstood (or purposefully misrepresented) my post. I have actually multiple times in this thread mentioned that some people do have strong preference for male characters.

I was not saying anything that implied that you did not mention that. I was wondering why you did not understand their PoV even though it's so similar to yours. And though you did not explicitly state that you did not you did seem to imply it by contrasting them with PoV's that you do understand.

The point is, those people already have a huge variety of choice with most of the cast being male characters so the people like me who strongly prefer female characters end up being left with not as much to choose from.

Yes, but someone who insists on only playing male characters would have more choice if all DLC was male. So they still benefit from it. So to me it makes sense that they would prefer it. To me it seems that getting more choice is always better.

Also, adding a female character doesn't take away from this huge variety of male characters

But not adding a female character means that a male character could be added instead and this would add to the variety of male characters. So I totally understand why people who prefer male characters would want that. It could be like Fire Emblem fans still wanting more Fire Emblem characters despite the franchise already having a huge amount of characters in Smash compared to other franchises. Why would they care about balance? more characters they like is better for them.

 

[Deleted member]

In short, I support a lot of female characters but I cannot support this #UltimateDLCsoMale hashtag because I believe that it's further from the truth. It's kind of funny to me that people can be so quick to support something like this while suppressing Kazooie's participation in the DLC. It's ironic, innit? Just because she doesn't fit your quota of female representation in DLC, doesn't make her any less of a female character in the DLC we've gotten so far.

Kazooie does not fit the bill of representation that we stand for. We want a 100% fully female fighter, not part of a duo.

 

[Deleted member]

Kazooie does not fit the bill of representation that we stand for. We want a 100% fully female fighter, not part of a duo.

Then maybe you should re-evaluate the hashtag before disavowing a female character that is in the fighters pass.

Again, I'm sorry this doesn't fit your quota however this "we" you speak of is a very very tiny minority.

 

[Deleted member]

Then maybe you should re-evaluate the hashtag before disavowing a female character that is in the fighters pass.

Again, I'm sorry this doesn't fit your quota however this "we" you speak of is a very very tiny minority.

I agree that my quota is quite strict, but it is where it stands. Still the hashtag is against the male coded pass. When you look up BK, everyone forgets Kazooie for the moment.

If you are truly hard on this statement then I will respect it, though my quota still stands.

 

[Murder Space Dragon]

Personally I don't see this as a big issue. I think it'd be nice to get some more female characters, but the way video games have sold naturally led to Smash having a lot more male characters. If mostly men play and buy games, most protagonists will be male. The gender ratio has only started evening out significantly in recent years, and even then it's still mostly guys who play video games.

Not to say I wouldn't like to see more female characters for DLC. I'd personally really like to see Dixie Kong or Shantae, though they aren't my most wanted.

 

[QueenTiger]

Kazooie is a total cop out, it's actually frustrating to see people make that argument that we don't need a female because we have Kazooie. Firstly, she is paired with a male - Banjo. Not only this, but Banjo's name comes first, and takes the spotlight. What we're asking for is a female SOLO character. In fact I'd say adding Kazooie and not a female solo would be worse than not having a female in any form.

 

[QueenTiger]

I was not saying anything that implied that you did not mention that. I was wondering why you did not understand their PoV even though it's so similar to yours. And though you did not explicitly state that you did not you did seem to imply it by contrasting them with PoV's that you do understand.


Yes, but someone who insists on only playing male characters would have more choice if all DLC was male. So they still benefit from it. So to me it makes sense that they would prefer it. To me it seems that getting more choice is always better.


But not adding a female character means that a male character could be added instead and this would add to the variety of male characters. So I totally understand why people who prefer male characters would want that. It could be like Fire Emblem fans still wanting more Fire Emblem characters despite the franchise already having a huge amount of characters in Smash compared to other franchises. Why would they care about balance? more characters they like is better for them.

So even though I have stated that I would understand their point of view, you continue to strawman me.
You are neglecting the fact here that people can understand things from another point of view and think reasonably and rationally. Is it so hard for you to understand that if someone already has a huge variety of choice over the amount of characters they can play, they are less likely to complain about not having enough variety. They are more likely to find a character that fits their playstyle etc. As has already been stated above by another user, because trans-men were assigned female at birth, they will have had experience with misogyny and as such will be more likely to agree that there needs to be more female characters.
Not to be rude, but you do seem to lack understanding in how actual people think.

 

[1FC0]

So even though I have stated that I would understand their point of view, you continue to strawman me.

Where did you state that? I guess I missed it.

Is it so hard for you to understand that if someone already has a huge variety of choice over the amount of characters they can play, they are less likely to complain about not having enough variety.

I do not know why you would ask this question since nothing I said would indicate that it's hard for me to understand this. I was never wondering why there are less people insisting on males than there are insisting on females.

What happened was that you implied that you did not understand why people would want males and right after that started explaining your reasoning for wanting females. That made me wonder why those reasons would not be applicable to people wanting males. Of course the roster already having more males crossed my mind, but as you implied, if they have more characters then:

They are more likely to find a character that fits their playstyle etc

This goes for people insisting on only playing male characters and for people insisting on only playing female characters.

However it seems the question lost relevance if now you do understand.

 

[QueenTiger]

Where did you state that? I guess I missed it.


I do not know why you would ask this question since nothing I said would indicate that it's hard for me to understand this. I was never wondering why there are less people insisting on males than there are insisting on females.

What happened was that you implied that you did not understand why people would want males and right after that started explaining your reasoning for wanting females. That made me wonder why those reasons would not be applicable to people wanting males. Of course the roster already having more males crossed my mind, but as you implied, if they have more characters then:

This goes for people insisting on only playing male characters and for people insisting on only playing female characters.

However it seems the question lost relevance if now you do understand.

At this point, you gotta be trolling and/or arguing for the sake of arguing. Either that or everything is going so far over your head it would be pointless for me to even argue my side as you wouldn't understand. I have made everything quite clear, and now you are deliberately twisting words.

 

[Ice-N-Space]

If Sakurai picks a character base off them being fun to play rather than relevant I don't see how Smash ended up with so little playable female characters hard to believe that all the females in gaming are less fun then males.

 

[1FC0]

At this point, you gotta be trolling and/or arguing for the sake of arguing. Either that or everything is going so far over your head it would be pointless for me to even argue my side as you wouldn't understand. I have made everything quite clear, and now you are deliberately twisting words.

None of this is true or backed up by anything. It's just vague false accusations and baseless name calling.

One more thing though. The quote

I'm confused as to why people would say "no". To me that actively seems as if you don't want a female character. I mean, I get not caring, but why actively go against it?

makes me think that you misunderstood the wording of the poll. Voting "no" is not going actively against female characters. Voting no is not saying that there should be no female character; it's actually saying that it is not so that there should be a female character. This is an important distinction because it means that people who do not care about gender should vote "no".

Basically everyone falls into one of these 3 categories:
- those that think there should be a female character
- those that are indifferent to whether there is going to be a female character or not
- those that think there should be no female character

The poll asks whether people belong to the first group. People who belong to the second or third group do not belong to the first group and thus should vote "no". However, the second group is not against females and thus some people who are not against females should still vote "no" in order to be truthful.

Personally I have not seen anyone here say they are against females in the DLC. I have seen some people say they are indifferent about gender though. This leads me to think that probably most if not all of the people who voted "no" are not against having female characters in DLC but instead belong to the second category of people who do not care much about gender.

I wish the poll was made to distinguish between people who are against female newcomers in DLC and those who are indifferent about it instead of lumping them together. I think this is an interesting distinction.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree that my quota is quite strict, but it is where it stands. Still the hashtag is against the male coded pass. When you look up BK, everyone forgets Kazooie for the moment.

If you are truly hard on this statement then I will respect it, though my quota still stands.

Y'know, despite how much I may disagree with your sentiment, you're being very mature about it and I appreciate that! So in turn I too respect your stance as well. It's honestly quite refreshing to hear someone who is obviously as passionate about their female activism such as yourself acting so civil. That's hard to come by these days, and I really admire that my dude! (dude is a gender neutral term in my mind, so take that verbiage with a grain of salt lol)

This should be a shining example of how people go about their activism these days regardless of the subject matter. If this was the case, the world would get a lot more done so, kudos to ya @Lesley Black Velvet. You've earned my respect.

Kazooie is a total cop out, it's actually frustrating to see people make that argument that we don't need a female because we have Kazooie. Firstly, she is paired with a male - Banjo. Not only this, but Banjo's name comes first, and takes the spotlight. What we're asking for is a female SOLO character. In fact I'd say adding Kazooie and not a female solo would be worse than not having a female in any form.

Now, here's where the gloves come off and I start whitekniting the crap out of Kazooie. Allow me to mansplain a few things to you:

This is the irony of female activism that I mentioned in my first post. There are many folks out there that will disavow and throw one of their fellow females under the bus so long as it fits their agenda. Kazooie is not a cop out. That's disrespectful to the developers that have gone out of their way to try to represent the 2 characters equally and fairly and if you've played BK in Smash, you can clearly see how much Kazooie's presence is being relayed. She has just as much of an impact in the BK series and the fighter slot that she shares with Banjo as the bear does. It's ignorant of someone to look at this duo and just see Banjo. If you are one of the few out there that actually view BK as solely just Banjo, then maybe you should be more open and inclusive to the idea of a male/female partnership in media. I'm not gonna repeat the points I've made about her. She is important. Very. Important.

Now, here's where I feel my argument got skewed. The only thing I was trying to refute was in relation to the hashtag itself and why I believe it's monstrously untrue based on the evidence of how Kazooie has been represented so far and her significance to her respective series. Ruling out Kazooie just because she is associated with a male is borderline reprehensible. I'm not saying "we have Kazooie, we don't need a solo female rep". That's an extremely asinine thing to say and I do not stand by that statement at all. I've expressed my gratitude and love for a handful female reps in my first post and I am confident that we will get one post-pass but saying that we've had nothing but male DLC characters while undermining the value that Kazooie has to offer is being very dishonest.

 

[Deleted member]

Y'know, despite how much I may disagree with your sentiment, you're being very mature about it and I appreciate that! So in turn I too respect your stance as well. It's honestly quite refreshing to hear someone who is obviously as passionate about their female activism such as yourself acting so civil. That's hard to come by these days, and I really admire that my dude! (dude is a gender neutral term in my mind, so take that verbiage with a grain of salt lol)

This should be a shining example of how people go about their activism these days regardless of the subject matter. If this was the case, the world would get a lot more done so, kudos to ya [IMG]https://smashboards.com/data/avatars/s/441/441619.jpg?1575546894[/IMG] Lesley Black Velvet . You've earned my respect.

Heheh. Thanks. Though however, I don't deserve it. Why? Because I went nuts on this site before for the female character. Remember thr Mii Leak? I threatened suicide here! And literally everyone went bat**** crazy about me. Of course that was deconfirmed but...it's how far I would go. I am trying to control it, but pretty much...yeah.

Still, as long as someone tries to be mature about it, I'll pretty much offer my maturity to them.

 

[1FC0]

Thanks. Though however, I don't deserve it. Why? Because I went nuts on this site before for the female character. Remember thr Mii Leak? I threatened suicide here!

That's in the past though. You seem to have improved to the point of deserving such praise.

This should be a shining example of how people go about their activism these days regardless of the subject matter. If this was the case, the world would get a lot more done so, kudos to ya [IMG]https://smashboards.com/data/avatars/s/441/441619.jpg?1575546894[/IMG] Lesley Black Velvet . You've earned my respect.

Being disrespectful often makes people want to disagree with the disrespectful person both because they will dislike him and because they may think that admitting that he's right would also be admitting that his disrespect was justified and thus basically amount to insulting themselves.

In addition, bystanders may not believe an activist if he's insulting the opposition, but they will probably believe their own senses that just showed to them that the activist is the kind of person who insults other people. Insulting other people often ironically says more about the insulter than it does about the insulted.

So it's in the best interest of activists to be able to stay calm and friendly even to people who disagree with them. An activist who cannot control his temper could even do more harm than good to his cause.

 

[Deleted member]

That's in the past though. You seem to have improved to the point of deserving such praise.

I think so. It's all thanks to self-discipline. But however, I did stir up some discord on the Newcomer Thread lately.

 

[Coolboy]

Kazooie is not a cop out. That's disrespectful to the developers that have gone out of their way to try to represent the 2 characters equally and fairly and if you've played BK in Smash, you can clearly see how much Kazooie's presence is being relayed. She has just as much of an impact in the BK series and the fighter slot that she shares with Banjo as the bear does. It's ignorant of someone to look at this duo and just see Banjo. If you are one of the few out there that actually view BK as solely just Banjo, then maybe you should be more open and inclusive to the idea of a male/female partnership in media. I'm not gonna repeat the points I've made about her. She is important. Very. Important.

this is the only part of your reply i kinda want to say something about..
i can actually get and understand why there are people who see Kazooie as a cop out, technically Banjo is the fighter, Kazooie is the weapon,
when you want a female character then you actually want a female character that is her own character/fighter, not a female character who only gets used as a weapon by someone else,
and i haven't played the actual games their from but in smash i see Kazooie is only being used as a weapon,

basically people who get introduced to the character for the very first time, are really gonna notice Banjo first and probably Kazooie much later.

 

[Deleted member]

this is the only part of your reply i kinda want to say something about..
i can actually get and understand why there are people who see Kazooie as a cop out, technically Banjo is the fighter, Kazooie is the weapon,
when you want a female character then you actually want a female character that is her own character/fighter, not a female character who only gets used as a weapon by someone else,
and i haven't played the actual games their from but in smash i see Kazooie is only being used as a weapon,

basically people who get introduced to the character for the very first time, are really gonna notice Banjo first and probably Kazooie much later.

I've explained in great detail why Kazooie is more than just a weapon:

- her presence is the series is noticeable and noteworthy popping up every now and then sharing her piece
- she has just as much dialogue and lines as anyone else in the BK games
- she (potentially) has more personality than anyone else from the games whether you compare her to Banjo, Gruntilda, Mumbo, Tooty, etc.

She is an existing character from an existing series and exists as a presence in the FP and her respective series just as much as Banjo does. Her name is mentioned in the fighters pass and the title of their original game. The announcer doesn't just say "Banjo" because they are aware of the significance that Kazooie has to the duo. This isn't a case of "A Bear and his pet bird". This is a case of essentially 2 friends working together to overcome the odds. If you played the games you would see that because it's incredibly obvious.

Claiming Kazooie is just a weapon is literally objectifying her and I personally don't support the idea of objectifying females.

 

[Deleted member]

Claiming Kazooie is just a weapon is literally objectifying her and I personally don't support the idea of objectifying females.

Unfortunately, that is the case, when it comes to how she is portrayed in the game. While her story presence is a good thing (as you explained earlier), the way she is treated in Smash however, is a different story. Smash and lore are two different things in general, and in smash, she is preeetttyyy much objectified. The announcer does recognize her, but the presentation is where it falls short.

I'm still hoping for a female fighter in this pass. A fully fledged, 100%, female playable fighter, to end the pass. It doesn't have to be extremely hype or niche, but as long as she has merits, then she could serve as a worthy pass-ender. Not seeing females is a missed oppurtunity, and that would be a shame.

 

[Coolboy]

Unfortunately, that is the case, when it comes to how she is portrayed in the game. While her story presence is a good thing (as you explained earlier), the way she is treated in Smash however, is a different story. Smash and lore are two different things in general, and in smash, she is preeetttyyy much objectified. The announcer does recognize her, but the presentation is where it falls short.

THANK YOU!! i literally explained to the guy that i haven't played the games, and that how they are portrayed in smash is how i see them , but this guy still has to blame me for 'objectifying'' Kazooie even though he knew i haven't played the games, and i find that just so unfair.

 

[Deleted member]

THANK YOU!! i literally explained to the guy that i haven't played the games, and that how they are portrayed in smash is how i see them , but this guy still has to blame me for 'objectifying'' Kazooie even though he knew i haven't played the games, and i find that just so unfair.

I too haven't grew up with the game. Never had the attachment for the series, though seeing BK's gameplay shows the Banjo is clearly the more dominant character being portrayed as.

It is just not enough to boil things down to lore and legacy. The way everything should be handled also counts. IT's not that it's objectifying, it's how we're treated to seeing it as.

 

[Deleted member]

Unfortunately, that is the case, when it comes to how she is portrayed in the game. While her story presence is a good thing (as you explained earlier), the way she is treated in Smash however, is a different story. Smash and lore are two different things in general, and in smash, she is preeetttyyy much objectified. The announcer does recognize her, but the presentation is where it falls short.

Now we're opening up a whole new can of worms in regards to Smash presentation. Like you said, it's a different story. I was mostly speaking out about the validity of the character and why her pressence in the DLC shouldn't be overlooked. Is Kazooie objectified in SSBU? In a way, you could be right but I however do not see it that way one bit. When I think about objectifying a character in a moveset, I think of Peach using Toad for her neutral B or Mario using FLUDD with his down B (I know that FLUDD is a literal object, but still). The difference between those examples and BK is that Kazooie's influence to BK's moveset a hell of a lot more than Toad or FLUDD does. There's a large gap between objectifying someone/something in a moveset and having 2 characters work as a cohesive unit, like Duck Hunt or Rosalina & Luma or dare I say, Banjo & Kazooie. At the end of the day, no Smash fighter is ever going to be 110% faithful with their representation to their respective series, but in BK's case, they did a damn fine job working out the balance between the two. Just because Banjo essentially acts as the main exoskeleton of the two in terms of controls and movement does not make Kazooie any less relevant to their playstyle or any less relevant to the character slot that they both share.

If you see Banjo & Kazooie, and only see or pay attention to the Banjo part, that's a reflection of your interpretation of them. I do not want to be rude, but it's an unjust interpretation of the duo.

THANK YOU!! i literally explained to the guy that i haven't played the games, and that how they are portrayed in smash is how i see them , but this guy still has to blame me for 'objectifying'' Kazooie even though he knew i haven't played the games, and i find that just so unfair.

Bull****. I didn't accuse you or blame you of anything. When I made that claim of objectification, I was moreso speaking of the general consensus of how some folks here have treated Kazooie. That's it. If it came off a little harsh and you took it personal, than my apologies but my intent was not to call you out specifically on that but only expressing my disdain of some folks here dismissing her as if she doesn't exist. So don't put words in my mouth or say things like "this guy" as if I'm not even here. You don't need to dogpile. I'm being as careful and civil as I possibly can when talking about this. It's okay, I don't bite.

However, if you do legitimately think that Kazooie is just a tool, than maybe you should reevaluate how you asses female characters despite how they are used or portrayed in games or other forms of media, if I may shed some wisdom on that.

And lemme just reiterate something that I feel is probably getting misunderstood. I'm in no way saying that Kazooie should be accepted as your female rep and I am in no way dismissing the idea of, how you guys say, "100% fully-fledged female character" or whatever because I am so down for that as I have expressed in my original post but if FP5 turns out to be a male, and people start making the claims that all the DLC we've recieved so far are all males. that is objectively false for one reason and one reason only; Kazooie.

And besides, it's not the end of the world either if FP5 is a male. The Fighters Pass is not vindictive to Smash DLC as a whole. We'll all be fine.

 

[Deleted member]

Now we're opening up a whole new can of worms in regards to Smash presentation. Like you said, it's a different story. I was mostly speaking out about the validity of the character and why her pressence in the DLC shouldn't be overlooked. Is Kazooie objectified in SSBU? In a way, you could be right but I however do not see it that way one bit. When I think about objectifying a character in a moveset, I think of Peach using Toad for her neutral B or Mario using FLUDD with his down B (I know that FLUDD is a literal object, but still). The difference between those examples and BK is that Kazooie's influence to BK's moveset a hell of a lot more than Toad or FLUDD does. There's a large gap between objectifying someone/something in a moveset and having 2 characters work as a cohesive unit, like Duck Hunt or Rosalina & Luma or dare I say, Banjo & Kazooie. At the end of the day, no Smash fighter is ever going to be 110% faithful with their representation to their respective series, but in BK's case, they did a damn fine job working out the balance between the two. Just because Banjo essentially acts as the main exoskeleton of the two in terms of controls and movement does not make Kazooie any less relevant to their playstyle or any less relevant to the character slot that they both share.

If you see Banjo & Kazooie, and only see or pay attention to the Banjo part, that's a reflection of your interpretation of them. I do not want to be rude, but it's an unjust interpretation of the duo.

Lesley, don't go Blood Velvet again, I warn you, I...

It's okay. Moving on...

Unfortunately, that isn't how the rest of the fanbase perceives it. Everyone merely refers to the character as "Banjo" without the Kazooie. That's a significant psychological association on that part. BK is a duo, yes, but the exoskeleton part makes my interpretation of the character being coded as male-dominant. That is what the fanbase perceives the duo as. Hell, everyone just codes the two as "Banjo" and it's how they see it. Looking at all the reactions I saw, much mention is solely to Banjo and not to Kazooie. Just goes to show the male bias of the character in itself.

Honestly BK's a severe case of deja vu.

If you dare bring up that bird's name as an excuse to why we don't ****ing female reps then...

Lesley...Lesley...remember what we talked abotu once. Don't go ****ting on this. Besides, you're off to your failsafe escape plan with Blazblue Central Fiction

Thank you. Sorry for the early remark. That was just my emotions talking.

 

[QueenTiger]

Lesley, don't go Blood Velvet again, I warn you, I...

It's okay. Moving on...

Unfortunately, that isn't how the rest of the fanbase perceives it. Everyone merely refers to the character as "Banjo" without the Kazooie. That's a significant psychological association on that part. BK is a duo, yes, but the exoskeleton part makes my interpretation of the character being coded as male-dominant. That is what the fanbase perceives the duo as. Hell, everyone just codes the two as "Banjo" and it's how they see it. Looking at all the reactions I saw, much mention is solely to Banjo and not to Kazooie. Just goes to show the male bias of the character in itself.

Honestly BK's a severe case of deja vu.

If you dare bring up that bird's name as an excuse to why we don't ****ing female reps then...

Lesley...Lesley...remember what we talked abotu once. Don't go ****ting on this. Besides, you're off to your failsafe escape plan with Blazblue Central Fiction

Thank you. Sorry for the early remark. That was just my emotions talking.

Not only this, but there is the implications of the game objectifying Kazooie like this meaning they practically have to have a female for FP5. If they don't, Kazooie will be the only female in this pass - and she is seen as a weapon, and used as a weapon by Banjo. Not including a female for FP5 would imply that they're adding female characters as things to be used (a weapon, a shield even) by male characters, very archaic on not only Nintendo's part but also anyone who uses Kazooie as an excuse to not include a female. It's a very lazy substitute for an actual female character who is her own character.
By white-knighting Kazooie, Foz has completely missed the reality of the matter and kind of just comes off as pandering.

 

[Deleted member]

Not only this, but there is the implications of the game objectifying Kazooie like this meaning they practically have to have a female for FP5. If they don't, Kazooie will be the only female in this pass - and she is seen as a weapon, and used as a weapon by Banjo. Not including a female for FP5 would imply that they're adding female characters as things to be used (a weapon, a shield even) by male characters, very archaic on not only Nintendo's part but also anyone who uses Kazooie as an excuse to not include a female. It's a very lazy substitute for an actual female character who is her own character.
By white-knighting Kazooie, Foz has completely missed the reality of the matter and kind of just comes off as pandering.

And considering how much Nintendo got their female representation right in their other games, such as the recent BoW, ARMS, and many others, it would be sending this as an interpretation of everything. The thread is asking for a full female fighter, so still, Kazooie will nto count for our true female rep.

Then again, everyone's view is subjective.

 

[Deleted member]

Lesley, don't go Blood Velvet again, I warn you, I...

lol it's okay my friend. I'm not trying to be hostile towards ya and we have already established a mutual respect with one another in regards to our individual stances. I get it though, I've been there. It's not easy hearing things that one may not like to hear. It can get to the point where it may send shivers of scorn and contempt down your spine where you just want to explode. I've ****ing been there more times than I can even count when I reminisce about talking to very conservative/republican folks in regards to, say, abortion or climate change for example. We're on the same side, but in order to improve our claims and our talking points we cannot turn down someone elses opinons from the other side despite how much we disagree. It's what being an adult is all about especially if we want to associate ourselves with debate or discussions that may be a little too taboo for, dare I say, regular people. No one wins and no one loses when it comes to civil discourse as long as we keep our egos in feelings in check (and I have a big goddamn ego lol) and everything will be fine.

You're handling it very well and again, I admire that but I just couldn't stand by when I feel there's some dishonesty going on with how we treat or talk about Kazooie. I had to say my piece.

Unfortunately, that isn't how the rest of the fanbase perceives it. Everyone merely refers to the character as "Banjo" without the Kazooie. That's a significant psychological association on that part.

100% in agreement and I hate it. Thing is, people on the internet are lazy lazy pricks. Myself included, however whenever I speculated about them getting into Smash prior or even after their reveal, I never once just said "Banjo" because I always felt that was really unfair to Kazooie. I've always referred to them as "BK"... which in hindsight probably makes me look much lazier than the norm but, eh. However, I will say that I remember a lot people also referring to them as "The Bird and Bear" as well, putting the implication of Kazooie before the implication of Banjo. Granted, it wasn't as common as people just directly referring to only Banjo but that was the nickname I've seen thrown around.

but the exoskeleton part makes my interpretation of the character being coded as male-dominant. That is what the fanbase perceives the duo as. Hell, everyone just codes the two as "Banjo" and it's how they see it.

Here's the way I look at it, and you can disagree with me on this all you like and that's fine. It's my perception and mine alone. I want to go back to "The Bird and Bear" thing I just mentioned an I wanna leave gender out of the equation because I don't think it's in any way relevent to the point I am about to make and it isn't relevent to their playstyle either. When talking about the exoskeleton and creating a balanced playstyle that makes sense about a bird and a bear, it only makes sense to have a big brown bear be the controllable character of the two and having Kazooie offer the utilities to their play style to add a variety of things to do. Again, big big difference between offering utilities and being a utility, and Kazooie is obviously the former. If the roles were reversed and a big brown bear was riding on a tiny bird, that'd be really awkward unless they were doing their dash the whole time, but that doesn't equate to a good playstyle.

If you dare bring up that bird's name as an excuse to why we don't ****ing female reps then...

You have nothing to worry about. I wouldn't dare say such a stupid thing. If anyone else were to make that claim, trust me, I'd be the first in line to disavow it in a heartbeat.

Thank you. Sorry for the early remark. That was just my emotions talking.

It's all good dog. It's aaaaall good.

Not only this, but there is the implications of the game objectifying Kazooie like this meaning they practically have to have a female for FP5. If they don't, Kazooie will be the only female in this pass - and she is seen as a weapon, and used as a weapon by Banjo. Not including a female for FP5 would imply that they're adding female characters as things to be used (a weapon, a shield even) by male characters, very archaic on not only Nintendo's part but also anyone who uses Kazooie as an excuse to not include a female. It's a very lazy substitute for an actual female character who is her own character.

By white-knighting Kazooie, Foz has completely missed the reality of the matter and kind of just comes off as pandering.

No. YOU'RE the one giving the implications of the game objectifying Kazooie by calling her a wepon or a tool as opposed to acknowledging her as her own unique character that works cohesively with a bear as a team. If you want to keep calling Kazooie a tool or a weapon, go for it but I'm not going to acknowledge blatant sexism anymore while you keep undermining the value of a female character and what she means to the character slot she shares with Banjo and the DLC, so you do you.

And I can't ****ing stress this enough. I'm not using Kazooie as an excuse to not add anymore female characters. That's ridiculous. This would be as clear as day to you if you actually read my posts and took my arguments into consideration whether you agree with them or not. Whatever "reality" I missed is nothing compared to the mountain of points I have expressed that you yourself have missed. I want to see more females get into Smash, I truely do but my intentions are not agenda driven.

Gimme Lara, Terra, Velvet, pleeeeeease but if we don't get a solo-female for the fighters pass, at least there's still a female present in the fighters pass. That is the underlying point I've been trying to make with all of this. She may not be the one you want, she may not meet the standards that you have, and she may be associated with another character who happens to be male but guess what? She's a female and she exists in the fighters pass. Ignoring this fact is incredibly disingenuous.

 

[Khao]

Wanna throw in a few cents. I actually don't care about the gender of the 5th character at the end of the day, but I still find the discussion interesting.

So I'm a huge Banjo-Kazooie fan. I grew up with the game. It's one of my absolute all time favorites, and I'm pretty comfortable in calling Kazooie my favorite character from the series, for more than one reason.

She's 100% not equal to Banjo. If you know your Rare development history, you know that Kazooie was literally created so that the big, heavy bear that is Banjo could believably perform a double jump. She was developed to enhance Banjo's capabilities in a fun and quirky manner. Kazooie is almost quite literally an accessory they turned into a character and it shows. In both Smash and in BK, the player controls Banjo directly while "activating" Kazooie for specific moves. She's literally not even visible when the player is just moving around. She dissapears entirely when doing transformations. I'm not saying this to diminish Kazooie as a character. Of course, she still evolved into a character of her own throughout development. She's the reason why most NPC interactions in BK are fun, and most of the cool and creative moves come from her own abilities...

...But she's still absolutely not presented on the same level as Banjo himself. Banjo is the main character. He's on a quest to save his sister. He's the player character. Kazooie is under pretty much ever definition of the word, a sidekick. She supports Banjo and enhances his moveset, and mostly goes along for the ride. So no, it's not unreasonable to dismiss Kazooie as a female fighter when she's not the focus of the whole package. If you want to play as a female character, you can't pick Kazooie herself.

I mean, just think about it this way. Sure, Kazooie is a female character.

But is "Banjo & Kazooie", as a whole, a female fighter by itself?

If not, then why should people who want to play as a female character be satisfied? The point is not to have an arbitrary female number go up. It's to have more choices if you prefer to play as a female, and Banjo & Kazooie does not fit the role. At the end of the day, Banjo & Kazooie doesn't fulfill the desire for a female fighter for the same reason that Peach doesn't fulfill the desire for a playable Toad.

She's female, but she's also part of a whole, and that whole is not female.

 

[Deleted member]

Gimme Lara, Terra, Velvet, pleeeeeease but if we don't get a solo-female for the fighters pass, at least there's still a female present in the fighters pass. That is the underlying point I've been trying to make with all of this. She may not be the one you want, she may not meet the standards that you have, and she may be associated with another character who happens to be male but guess what? She's a female and she exists in the fighters pass. Ignoring this fact is incredibly disingenuous.

That is unfortunahely the truth. But all in all, it would be such a missed potential for the devs to add a fully female fighter. And if Season 2 adds new females, but are only restricted to first parties to make up for the extensive amount of third parties, then yeah, it's good compensation. Though it's still a missed oppurtunity if the closest thing we ever get to a female fighter is part of a duo and not a fully-fledged 100% playable female.

 

[Spongeboob]

I'm probably missing the point on this entirely. I don't know. Imma post my stinky opinion anyway. Feel free to agree or disagree.

I probably said this somewhere before, and I'll say it again. I don't give two ****s about a character's gender unless it's in a scenario where it would matter (in Smash Bros.'s case, none). When it comes to circlejerking discussing potential DLC fighters, gender matters not of the character. Sure, the majority of characters discussed are male, but it's not because they're male that they're brought up. Likewise, when female characters are brought up, it's not (or at least shouldn't be) because they're female. Rather, it's other circumstances such as said character's series being shilled on Switch, Sakurai liking said character's game(s), said character being highly requested, said character being brought up by "leakers", and so on. If a character happens to be a guy, then okay. If a character happens to be a gal, then okay. Think beyond their gender. What else does the character represent? What could they bring to the table? Would they be fun to play as, and if so, how? Those are the questions that we should be asking, not "OOOOO WHY AREN'T THERE ENOUGH FEEEMAAAALES!?!?11/". On another note, I think it's sexist to want or think a character is in based on their gender. You're taking everything else away from the character by doing that.

I don't think we need "representation" either. Again, it's not a scenario where it matters. You don't need to "identify" with a character externally or internally in order to fully understand or play as that character. While putting yourself in a character's shoes could help you "main them" or whatever, it's not always the deciding factor. You might just find the character fun to play as or think that they look cool. To those who think I'm saying that there's a "female boogeyman", I don't believe every female being brought up is for "muh woomen". Actually, some of the characters I want happen to be female. However, with the way feminists handle things nowadays, it's probably gonna boil down to that. It's what happened to Captain Marvel, as well as Ghostbusters, and I wouldn't want it happening to Smash Bros. as well. I know not everyone here is forcing diversity or something, but I still, nonetheless, don't like it. Also, the gender imbalance, in my opinion, is trivial. I don't have anything else to add to that right now, so I'll just leave it at that.

In regards to Kazooie... let me just say this: it wouldn't be Banjo & Kazooie without Kazooie, would it? Moving on.

Anways, I think the reason why the majority of "important" video game characters (both good and evil) are male is because it's an industry that happens to be dominated by men. Like I said, we don't need representation, and you don't need to be the same external or internal identity as a character to wear their shoes. However, since the majority of peeps in the industry are men, while it doesn't mean it's impossible for them to write women that have actual personality, it could be concluded that it's harder for men to do so due to not being women. However, I think that encouraging more women to take up jobs in video game-related fields can change that somewhat. It'll probably still be dominated by men, but by having women that are qualified for this kind of stuff, we can probably have more well-written females. Like some **** once told me, "Be the change that you want to see." Or something.

On another note, I think I could say that we don't even need more characters. (Not just female characters, but characters in general.) I think the roster is fine as is. While I especially dig the inclusion of Terry "(insert thingy here)" Bogard (and I'm greatful that he and everyone else is in), I think we could've just gotten Inkling and we'd be fine. Everything else is just icing on top of a delicious cake. That being said, more characters is always nice, so I'm gonna keep thinking about more characters anyways.

As far as characters I want in, there's several. However, I'm gonna list a few that I want in that happen to be female, can be female, or (in the case of Rex) are a team thingy.

• Octoling: VERY easy echo fighter for the Inklings. Now that's what I call a missed opportunity.
• Arle: I don't know, I just started liking Puyo Puyo for some reason. On another note, I think she, alongside Travis and Sora, are somewhat likely at the moment for spot #5.
• Byleth: Whipsword thingy going on. I think it's cool. Also, unlike most other FE characters, they fight with fists.
• Kat & Ana: Duo fighter. They'd be kinda silly, I guess. Ice Climbers with swords. I like it.
• Amaterasu: I don't know, I just think she looks cool.
• Rex gang: Played Xenoblade Chronicles 2. Not finished yet, but I'm loving that it so far. Also, dubbed Rex is so bad that it's actually kind of good. Hope he'd be the next Terry in that reGARD. Also, he has a "Blade switch" mechanic, which I think is neat.

Once again, I'm not sure if I'm missing the point of this or not. Again, it's only my opinion, so it's okay to agree or disagree.

 

[QueenTiger]

Wanna throw in a few cents. I actually don't care about the gender of the 5th character at the end of the day, but I still find the discussion interesting.

So I'm a huge Banjo-Kazooie fan. I grew up with the game. It's one of my absolute all time favorites, and I'm pretty comfortable in calling Kazooie my favorite character from the series, for more than one reason.

She's 100% not equal to Banjo. If you know your Rare development history, you know that Kazooie was literally created so that the big, heavy bear that is Banjo could believably perform a double jump. She was developed to enhance Banjo's capabilities in a fun and quirky manner. Kazooie is almost quite literally an accessory they turned into a character and it shows. In both Smash and in BK, the player controls Banjo directly while "activating" Kazooie for specific moves. She's literally not even visible when the player is just moving around. She dissapears entirely when doing transformations. I'm not saying this to diminish Kazooie as a character. Of course, she still evolved into a character of her own throughout development. She's the reason why most NPC interactions in BK are fun, and most of the cool and creative moves come from her own abilities...

...But she's still absolutely not presented on the same level as Banjo himself. Banjo is the main character. He's on a quest to save his sister. He's the player character. Kazooie is under pretty much ever definition of the word, a sidekick. She supports Banjo and enhances his moveset, and mostly goes along for the ride. So no, it's not unreasonable to dismiss Kazooie as a female fighter when she's not the focus of the whole package. If you want to play as a female character, you can't pick Kazooie herself.

I mean, just think about it this way. Sure, Kazooie is a female character.

But is "Banjo & Kazooie", as a whole, a female fighter by itself?

If not, then why should people who want to play as a female character be satisfied? The point is not to have an arbitrary female number go up. It's to have more choices if you prefer to play as a female, and Banjo & Kazooie does not fit the role. At the end of the day, Banjo & Kazooie doesn't fulfill the desire for a female fighter for the same reason that Peach doesn't fulfill the desire for a playable Toad.

She's female, but she's also part of a whole, and that whole is not female.

It's literally this simple lol. Finally someone gets it.

 

[Deleted member]

It's literally this simple lol. Finally someone gets it.

This is pretty malicious but I'll bite lol.

First off, yeah you're absolutely correct. Khao did hit the nail on the head and I essentially agree with everything he pointed out. He's not wrong and it is a very informative post he made. The only difference between him and myself is his perception of the duo is a little different than mine, and that's okay. It pretty much dabbles in the realm of subjectivity already considering it's a video game and video games are a form of media so he'll have his impressions and I will have mine. For example, he said he views her as a sidekick or as a supporting character. I don't get that impression at all when I play the games. I view them both almost on an equal basis and I stand by it 100% but at the same time, giving Banjo a little more leniency because yes, he is the main character but that doesn't discredit Kazooie in regards to gameplay and what she offers either. He is absolutely correct on just about everything he laid out so I cannot dispute it.

But I want to clarify some things because obviously the context of my views and rebuttals have been missed and you have jumped to the "you just don't get it" conclusion. So here I go:

- I never claimed or made the argument that BK is a fully fledged female character or should be even be remotely close to be considered as one. Thing is though, they're not exclusively an all-male character either.

- I never advocated the idea that since Kazooie is a character who is part of the FP (granted, not by herself) then that means that there shouldn't be more room for more females. As I told Lesley: If anyone were to make that claim I would be the first to disavow because I do not agree with that sentiment one bit. I've mentioned this a couple of times but seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

- I never said or even implied for that matter that Kazooie's inclusion with Banjo should be enough to fit the role as the female quota people would like to see in regards to wanting a female character. This is another asinine view that I do not have or condone.

- In regards to her presence, I never once compared it to Banjo's. I only acknowledged that her presence is noteworthy and not something that shouldn't be overlooked whether it's in relation to Smash or the BK games. The only things I compared her and Banjo to were strictly about dialogue and personality.

My point at the end of the day for the 100th time is that Kazooie is just as much a part of the pass as Banjo is. Ruling her out as just a tool is unfair and making the claim that the FP so far is completely male-orientated only is not true. Does that clear things up or do I still "not get it"?

 

[Deleted member]

My point at the end of the day for the 100th time is that Kazooie is just as much a part of the pass as Banjo is. Ruling her out as just a tool is unfair and making the claim that the FP so far is completely male-orientated only is not true. Does that clear things up or do I still "not get it"?

To be safe, yes, you made your point known.

The thread is asking for a 100% fully playable fighter, yes, but I cannot ignore Kazooie's part in the pass. The lack of a fully 100% female fighter is probably going to stir in my mind for a long time, but rather, yes. IT's agonizing to see such a thing in this pass, wherein the closest thing we have to female representation is 1/2 of a duo, when there are other 100% female picks that can be put later. The reason I thought of this is by looking at other fighting games that did release fully female characters.

 

[Deleted member]

To be safe, yes, you made your point known.

The thread is asking for a 100% fully playable fighter, yes, but I cannot ignore Kazooie's part in the pass. The lack of a fully 100% female fighter is probably going to stir in my mind for a long time, but rather, yes. IT's agonizing to see such a thing in this pass, wherein the closest thing we have to female representation is 1/2 of a duo, when there are other 100% female picks that can be put later. The reason I thought of this is by looking at other fighting games that did release fully female characters.

Fair enough. Fair enough. This is something I can abide to and I do really hope that we do receive a full on female fighter. There's a handful of great candidates with a lot of great potential. I personally can't see one being #5 in the pass to be brutally honest, but thank the goddesses that we are getting more dlc post-pass. So it's not the end of any the gals chances if FP5 isn't one. Whoever it's gonna be, I'll be very content.

The only reason I decided to comment on this thread in the first place because I felt Kazooie's existence was receiving very unfair treatment with immediate dismissals and being relegated to something that she is not, and I just wanted to throw in my two cents on it.

 

[Deleted member]

Fair enough. Fair enough. This is something I can abide to and I do really hope that we do receive a full on female fighter. There's a handful of great candidates with a lot of great potential. I personally can't see one being #5 in the pass to be brutally honest, but thank the goddesses that we are getting more dlc post-pass. So it's not the end of any the gals chances if FP5 isn't one. Whoever it's gonna be, I'll be very content.

The only reason I decided to comment on this thread in the first place because I felt Kazooie's existence was receiving very unfair treatment with immediate dismissals and being relegated to something that she is not, and I just wanted to throw in my two cents on it.

That is all fine though.

I'm kind of expecting a full-on compensation with a Women Fighter's Pass for season 2 to make up for this Pass. But there's a problem. An all-female Season 2 will divide the fanbase. Some will like it because now there are more females to play as, and it will attract more of both the male and female demographics. On the other hand? You have the people pending for stuff like Hayabusa, DoomSlayer, Geno, Lloyd, etc., only to get their hopes wasted for an entire year because the entire pass will be all-female.

 

[KatKit]

I already stated my opinion on the Kazooie subject. Aside from male/female avatar pairings and duos, Samus and Bayonetta are the only women who are standalone main characters in the entire roster, IIRC. When most of the gals in the game are either alternate costumes, echoes, palette swaps, or different versions of the same character, and the rest are secondary characters, there's a huge problem. We've already mentioned that subject many times, pointed out how Smash has historically put women on the back-burner, and talked about ways to address the issue, and listed several awesome characters it could include and why. But you can understand why people aren't gung-ho about Kazooie's role in Smash Bros. While I'm glad she's in and understand her significance in her home series, she doesn't count. In the context of a fighting game, she's essentially a weapon - an extension of Banjo's attacks. No one counts Pod042 from Nier Automata in Soul Calibur 6. No one counts Emily from Bionic Commando on Spencer's arm in Marvel vs. Capcom. No one counts Samson in Skullgirls. No one counts Mikey, Kazu, and Kira's blob in Arcana Hearts. Etc. It's basically the same thing.

To clarify, Filia is a character from Skullgirls who is attached to a Parasite named Samson. He does most of the attacking. He's his own character with his own complex backstory and everything, but the game was still classified as an all girl fighter pre-DLC because he isn't the character that players control. Mikey, Kazu, Kira's Blob (and various male Arcana you can pair them with) are similar to Samson in their respective series, except they perform almost every attack. Yet again, no one considers Arcana Hearts a game filled with male characters.

In the context of Smash, Kazooie is undoubtedly the equivalent of the aforementioned characters. No one adds Arsene or Luma to the roster's headcount, despite their significance and prominence in Rosalina and Joker's arsenal. Banjo is the character that players are controlling, and Banjo is the character that's mostly flinging Kazooie around and pulling the trigger. No one refers to the duo as Kazooie, but the opposite is quite common. No one says Banjo is Kazooie's side tilt, or he's her jump, or he's her Smash attack, or he's her neutral special, etc. If you need an example of another titular pair, if 'Jak and Daxter' was added to Smash, no one would say we got two more men added to the roster. They'd add Jak as one more guy and keep it pushing. And unlike Kazooie, Daxter had a standalone game lol. Same goes for Ratchet and Clank.

But let's entertain the idea that Kazooie counts. After all, Smash actually portrays them as a duo, they compliment one another, and Kazooie is a woman. However, that brings us back to our first issue. In Smash, Kazooie is easily the worst example of a female rep in the entire game: a sidekick used as a weapon. I mean... we can celebrate having her all day, but should we?

With a focus on 3rd party reps, the DLC really opened the doors for women. Thus far, that potential was squandered. I'm still optimistic, especially since there's more DLC on the way, but our technically first and thus far only example of a woman post-launch is somewhat problematic, to say the least.

Instead of arguing back and forth about the legitimacy of Kazooie's representation, I suggest focusing on which other awesome gals we'd like to see in the game and why.

 

[Deleted member]

With a focus on 3rd party reps, the DLC really opened the doors for women. Thus far, that potential was squandered. I'm still optimistic, especially since there's more DLC on the way, but our technically first and thus far only example of a woman post-launch is somewhat problematic, to say the least.

That's why I'm beginning to feel upset should we get a 1st-Party pass, one that is also all-female to compensate. The Fighters Pass would be a missed oppurtunity for female video game characters. And if we go back to 1st Parties, then clearly Smash will miss out on TONS of possible additions. Including 2B, Morrigan, KOS-MOS, etc.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Morrigan

But Smash is for good boys and girls only

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree that a first party pass would limit the potential for good newcomers. What I personally think they'll do is select newcomers based on another ballot (which may be announced as soon as The Gama Awards), and have both first and third party characters based on who is most popular. This would be a good sign for characters like Dixie Kong and Lara Croft who may otherwise go unnoticed. I don't think it would be smart for the devs to select the next 5(?) fighters on their own again, considering most of the choices seem to have been based on generalizations.

 

[Deleted member]

have both first and third party characters based on who is most popular. This would be a good sign for characters like Dixie Kong and Lara Croft who may otherwise go unnoticed. I don't think it would be smart for the devs to select the next 5(?) fighters on their own again, considering most of the choices seem to have been based on generalizations.

And if so, it'll probably be a female pass to compensate.

TGAs is approaching fast. With so much deconfirmations done, it'll be blurry as to who the final fighter will be, but please be a female.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

And if so, it'll probably be a female pass to compensate.

Spoiler

There's no reason to believe that the devs take any stock in gender diversity in Smash. As far as we're concerned they'll continue to add characters while being impartial to gender. They're not going to bend over backwards and engineer an entire fighters' pass to appease a small Twitter movememnt. As much as I want to see some specific females in Smash too, we have to accept that they're equally as likely as any male newcomer, and we shouls all be fine with that. They're never going to exclude that many characters from the game simply on the basis of gender.

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler

There's no reason to believe that the devs take any stock in gender diversity in Smash. As far as we're concerned they'll continue to add characters while being impartial to gender. They're not going to bend over backwards and engineer an entire fighters' pass to appease a small Twitter movememnt. As much as I want to see some specific females in Smash too, we have to accept that they're equally as likely as any male newcomer, and we shouls all be fine with that. They're never going to exclude that many characters from the game simply on the basis of gender.

It was just a suggestion, mind you. I know it would never happen, but it would be a small token to make up for what the first pass lacked. And besides, it's divisive to the fanbase.