#UltimateDLCSoMale: The Female DLC Character Discussion

[Night Gale]

The problem with that, bruh, is if you're going to make a video game museum fighter, it makes sense to include more women. There are women who are the prime examples of their respective genre that do not have any playable representation on the roster yet. There's a s***load of female characters and mascots who've had cultural impacts that are consistently disregarded. Samus and Bayonetta alone are not the biggest female protagonists in gaming. With regards to female character's contribution to video games, Super Smash is giving off the wrong impression.

You brought up Sakurai's character design philosophy, so let's discuss it:

1. The character must display personality in their game​
2. It’s important to have something only that character can do.​
3. Potential development issues, and game balance is also taken into some consideration​
4. Distribution among the franchises is also taken into consideration.​

1. Women can bring distinctive mannerisms and characteristics that most, if not all male characters lack. We could use more of that. Furthermore, we can use more women who are different from most of the other women who are already present in the game.

2. See number 1.

3. Irrelevant to the discussion.

4. Highly disproportionate number of female-led protagonists in the game. Maybe they should take that into consideration with regards to franchise distribution?

Of course, we can also factor in that they can increase Super Smash's playerbase by appealing more to its female demographic for a change. One simple yet highly effective way of doing that is, you guessed it, adding more women.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

The problem with that, bruh, is if you're going to make a video game museum fighter, it makes sense to include more women. There are women who are the prime examples of their respective genre that do not have any playable representation on the roster yet. There's a s***load of female characters and mascots who've had cultural impacts that are consistently disregarded. Samus and Bayonetta alone are not the biggest female protagonists in gaming. With regards to female character's contribution to video games, Super Smash is giving off the wrong impression.

You brought up Sakurai's character design philosophy, so let's discuss it:



1. Women can bring distinctive mannerisms and characteristics that most, if not all male characters lack. We could use more of that. Furthermore, we can use more women who are different from most of the other women who are already present in the game.

2. See number 1.

3. Irrelevant to the discussion.

4. Highly disproportionate number of female-led protagonists in the game. Maybe they should take that into consideration with regards to franchise distribution?

Of course, we can also factor in that they can increase Super Smash's playerbase by appealing more to its female demographic for a change. One simple yet highly effective way of doing that is, you guessed it, adding more women.

No one is disregarding any character because they're female. No one looks at a character like Lara Croft and says "Yeah she's cool, but Master Chief is a dude so I'd rather have him". I understand that might not be what you're trying to say, but "There's a s***load of female characters and mascots who've had cultural impacts that are consistently disregarded." makes it seem like that's what you're implying.

 

[Deleted member]

No one is disregarding any character because they're female. No one looks at a character like Lara Croft and says "Yeah she's cool, but Master Chief is a dude so I'd rather have him". I understand that might not be what you're trying to say, but "There's a s***load of female characters and mascots who've had cultural impacts that are consistently disregarded." makes it seem like that's what you're implying.

I mean, that's the same immpression I had. People consider legacy over stuff like gender, however, some people would think otherwise. Considering a game that is struggling with gender ratio like Smash Bros, they really have to add more female characters that can also bring legacy. Lara Croft, you name it.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

The problem with that, bruh, is if you're going to make a video game museum fighter, it makes sense to include more women. There are women who are the prime examples of their respective genre that do not have any playable representation on the roster yet. There's a s***load of female characters and mascots who've had cultural impacts that are consistently disregarded. Samus and Bayonetta alone are not the biggest female protagonists in gaming. With regards to female character's contribution to video games, Super Smash is giving off the wrong impression.

You brought up Sakurai's character design philosophy, so let's discuss it:



1. Women can bring distinctive mannerisms and characteristics that most, if not all male characters lack. We could use more of that. Furthermore, we can use more women who are different from most of the other women who are already present in the game.

2. See number 1.

3. Irrelevant to the discussion.

4. Highly disproportionate number of female-led protagonists in the game. Maybe they should take that into consideration with regards to franchise distribution?

Of course, we can also factor in that they can increase Super Smash's playerbase by appealing more to its female demographic for a change. One simple yet highly effective way of doing that is, you guessed it, adding more women.

Super Smash Bros. is a reflection of the gaming industry; the devs just take characters who happened to be established icons since the 80s and 90s all the way to the present. It's not Smash's job to fix the imbalanced gender representation that has been present in the video game industry since the beginning, sis. And I assure you that every character in the current fighter's pass have a very good reasons to be there, and gender is not one of them.

Speaking of Sakurai's philosophy, number 1 states displaying some kind of personality trait. Femininity is just one of many characteristics a fighter may have but it's not the defining trait you are making it to be. It's just one of the many possible reasons Sakurai may choose a fighter. And with number 4, it states "Distribution among the franchises is also taken into consideration"; there isn't a single word there about a disproportionate amount of female protagonists. With that statement, Sakurai was referring to considering the possible number of fighters from each franchise possibly to avoid disproportionate representation. Remember that in Melee, Sakurai said that he didn't want to add Meta Knight and Dedede to avoid overrepresenting his series. Of course, this criteria has more or less changed seeing how every franchise has a varying amount of fighters unequal to each other.

Here are also some scans from the Game Developer's Conference presented by Sakurai in 2008: https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/07/11/gdc-2008-translation/

In those documents, Sakurai breaks down their criteria for adding characters. Note that gender is not even mentioned once. Also, on the first scan it says that they ensure that characters can be properly represented using a few words. Snake is "Heavy Weapons Specialist" and Zero Suit Samus is "Flexible Martial Artist", they are not being referred as "a male" and "a female" but by their playstyles instead.

Your post is a perfect example of projecting one's own ideals towards a game that has no business dealing with those issues. Smash's female demographic isn't necessarily going to increase by adding more women. Skullgirls has an all female roster and most of the people who play the game at tournaments are men; those in the audience are mostly male as well. Because guess what? If you present to a group of men and women the exact same options, chances they are going to gravitate towards different things because men and women are wired differently. Most women don't particularly like fighting games; not saying that those who play them don't exist but the truth is that the people who are into them are mostly men and it's not necessarily for discriminatory reasons. The people who liked your post clearly didn't even take five minutes to think that out. Here's a study on gender demographics of gamers that, while may not be completely representative of the whole gaming population, it illustrates that idea to a certain degree: https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/

As a side note, the font you are using makes your posts very difficult to read.

 

[MaddaD]

V...Video games?

 

[Night Gale]

Super Smash isn't an accurate reflection of the industry; iconic women have been around back then, and there was a paradigm shift years ago. Honestly, it shouldn't strive too hard to be exactly like the industry anyway because its filled with low effort, homogenized af protagonists.

They factor gender in the equation, otherwise they wouldn't have asked for it on the Smash Ballot, and pointed out the increase from Brawl to Smash 4.

Appealing to a demographic that Super Smash doesn't market much to would increase its sales. Tournament players aren't an accurate representation of a game's player base. That and sexual harassment is a legitimate problem in the FGC. Moreover, if you typically don't play fighting games but you make an exception for something like Skullgirls, chances are that you aren't going to join the tourney scene, or are even aware of its existence. We do know that there are plenty of women who: donated to the kickstarter, cosplay the characters, share fanart, post about the game on social media, etc. I've never seen a breakdown of Skullgirls demographics, but I'm certain that for a niche indie fighting game, a lot of women were interested in that s*** and helped contribute to its success.

However, if you want to talk about demographics, look no further than Senran Kagura. You'd think an action series that was seriously going to be titled Ninjugs wouldn't have a large female player base, but it does.

 

[Ben Holt]

However, if you want to talk about demographics, look no further than Senran Kagura. You'd think an action series that was seriously going to be titled Ninjugs wouldn't have a large female player base, but it does.

The only obvious explanation is that women want to be objectified, squirted with water guns, and have their thighs slapped while boys pretend that they are anime waifus.

 

[Night Gale]

The real reason is that Senran Kagura is ninja Sailor Moon with a side of optional tongue-in-cheek fanservice. It's a lighthearted, story-driven series filled with powerful cute girls, above average gameplay, and action that let's you play dress up. It's also one of the few games that let you play as a badass old lady.

I want an SK rep in Super Smash. Yumi is an adaptable mascot who already crossed over with Sega, Atlus, Koei Tecmo, Nihon Falcom, Tatsunoko, and Arc System Works, who also has history with Nintendo. She starred in a third-person shooter, a card battler, a pinball game, a side scrolling action game, a hack and slash, a cooking/rhythm game, a dating sim, and a 2D fighting game. Super Smash would be business as usual. Her resume sounds like Mario and Pacman level s***, and she did it all in less than a decade. If it was any other character, people would be begging for this to happen.

 

[Ben Holt]

The real reason is that Senran Kagura is ninja Sailor Moon with a side of optional tongue-in-cheek fanservice. It's a lighthearted, story-driven series filled with powerful cute girls, above average gameplay, and action that let's you play dress up. It's is also one of the few games that let you play as a badass old lady.

I want an SK rep in Super Smash. Yumi is an adaptable mascot who already crossed over with Sega, Atlus, Koei Tecmo, Nihon Falcom, Tatsunoko, and Arc System Works. She starred in a third-person shooter, a card battler, a pinball game, a side scrolling action game, a hack and slash, a cooking/rhythm game, a dating sim, and a 2D fighting game. Super Smash would be business as usual. Her resume sounds like Mario and Pacman level s***, and she did it all in less than a decade. If it was any other character, people would be begging for this to happen.

I bought it for the thigh slapping.
Not even trolling. Feel free to ask Lesley about my obsession with beautiful women.

 

[Night Gale]

I'm not here to judge. Whatever the reason, that s*** is honestly worth trying out. lmao

Ikaruga and Daidouji are my favorites btw.

 

[Ben Holt]

Realistically though, Seran Kagura ain't EVER coming to Smash. Bayonetta may take her clothes off, but in SK, sexuality is pretty much the whole point.
"Fanservice" is not sexual in and of itself, but when your hands make the jiggly jiggly, that's definitely well into the "this is basically porn" territory.

 

[Night Gale]

I think it's possible since it's always been tame af in fighting game crossovers.

 

[Ben Holt]

Smash isn't a typical fighting crossover, though.
They didn't give Mega Man his Marvel Vs. Capcom appearance; they made him feel like he was straight out of Mega Man 2. Same with the Belmonts.
Point is, Smash prefers to preserve the essence of the home series rather than to force a character to fight like everyone else.

 

[Night Gale]

Smash isn't a typical fighting crossover, though.
They didn't give Mega Man his Marvel Vs. Capcom appearance; they made him feel like he was straight out of Mega Man 2. Same with the Belmonts.
Point is, Smash prefers to preserve the essence of the home series rather than to force a character to fight like everyone else.

Smash takes liberties. See: Ganondorf.

Anywho, ASW, the company that developed Dbfz, is as faithful at recreating the essence of a character as Super Smash. Senran was still tame af in their game but as faithful as ever. There's more to it than nudity and jiggle physics imo.

 

[Deleted member]

In terms of Senran Kagura getting in Smash, the statement Sakurai had about Mai (not for good boys and girls) is pretty much the barrier to her chances. And not only that, but the main developer, from what I have read, recently left Marvelous (though we are still getting what is supposedly the final game in the series). Then again, we got Snake back here in Smash so...creators leaving won't be a factor here.

The franchise has always, and will be, my guilty pleasure largely because of the story and its characters. If one can get past all the boobs and jiggles, it's technically akin to your everyday show.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Super Smash isn't an accurate reflection of the industry; iconic women have been around back then, and there was a paradigm shift years ago. Honestly, it shouldn't strive too hard to be exactly like the industry anyway because its filled with low effort, homogenized af protagonists.

They factor gender in the equation, otherwise they wouldn't have asked for it on the Smash Ballot, and pointed out the increase from Brawl to Smash 4.

Appealing to a demographic that Super Smash doesn't market much to would increase its sales. Tournament players aren't an accurate representation of a game's player base. That and sexual harassment is a legitimate problem in the FGC. Moreover, if you typically don't play fighting games but you make an exception for something like Skullgirls, chances are that you aren't going to join the tourney scene, or are even aware of its existence. We do know that there are plenty of women who: donated to the kickstarter, cosplay the characters, share fanart, post about the game on social media, etc. I've never seen a breakdown of Skullgirls demographics, but I'm certain that for a niche indie fighting game, a lot of women were interested in that s*** and helped contribute to its success.

However, if you want to talk about demographics, look no further than Senran Kagura. You'd think an action series that was seriously going to be titled Ninjugs wouldn't have a large female player base, but it does.

So I guess you are just ignoring everything else that I previously wrote about the character selection process in Smash and didn't even bother to check the statistics about gender demographics in gamers, huh? That's fine, it's telling of your disingenuous attitude that indicates that you are incapable of having an honest discussion about the subject matter. People tend to pass over information they find inconvenient to their stance. You also didn't address my previous claims of the fighters in the pass not being chosen by their gender. Btw, Nick Yee also found out that the percentage of female players in Tekken is about 21% but recognizes that the actual total stats are a bit higher, and while it's true that less women play competitively overall the research wasn't grounded specifically on tournament players.

That doesn't mean that it's mostly men who gravitate towards the genre. The sole example you provided in Senran Kagura doesn't really invalidate what I've stated before; it simply makes it an outlier.

And the ballot didn't factor gender specifically, so I don't know what makes you think they did. Of course, it's not like you care about character design in Smash, just the gender of the fighter and the narcissistic idea of pushing that agenda upon a game that is about Nintendo fighters.

 

[Night Gale]

So I guess you are just ignoring everything else that I previously wrote about the character selection process in Smash and didn't even bother to check the statistics about gender demographics in gamers, huh?

I was actually going to address the rest of that s*** later, but it no longer interests me.

it's not like you care about character design in Smash, just the gender of the fighter and the narcissistic idea of pushing that agenda upon a game that is about Nintendo fighters.

You're creating a narrative, bruh.

 

[Deleted member]

I was actually going to address the rest of that s*** later, but it no longer interests me.



You're creating a narrative, bruh.

Sigh...just ignore him if he feels like he's not offering anything meaningful to the conversation.

 

[Oddball]

Why are so many people in this topic using hard to read dark colored text?

 

[Deleted member]

Why are so many people in this topic using hard to read dark colored text?

Mostly preference.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Smash takes liberties. See: Ganondorf.

Smash took that liberty in 2001 when they had nothing else to work with. They made Mega Man (Super Smash Bros. for the Nintendo 3DS/Wii U, 2014) and the Belmonts (Super Smash bros. Ultimate, 2018) with everything to work with. There's a difference.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

They factor gender in the equation, otherwise they wouldn't have asked for it on the Smash Ballot, and pointed out the increase from Brawl to Smash 4.

The smash ballot was talking about the gender of the person filling out the ballot, not the actual character's gender, which is what we're talking about when we say the Smash team doesn't consider gender.

 

[Deleted member]

The smash ballot was talking about the gender of the person filling out the ballot, not the actual character's gender, which is what we're talking about when we say the Smash team doesn't consider gender.

Oh yeah..it did.

That's definitely the indicator that Nintendo did take demographic into consideration, didn't they?

 

[scoobymcsnack]

Oh yeah..it did.

That's definitely the indicator that Nintendo did take demographic into consideration, didn't they?

Probably, I can't imagine there being another likely reason. There's a good chance they wanted to see which characters appeal to each demographic.

 

[Night Gale]

The smash ballot was talking about the gender of the person filling out the ballot, not the actual character's gender, which is what we're talking about when we say the Smash team doesn't consider gender.

I know this, but why would the ballot ask that question in the first place?

Smash took that liberty in 2001 when they had nothing else to work with. They made Mega Man (Super Smash Bros. for the Nintendo 3DS/Wii U, 2014) and the Belmonts (Super Smash bros. Ultimate, 2018) with everything to work with. There's a difference.

For a recent example, there's Joker.

 

[Deleted member]

I know this, but why would the ballot ask that question in the first place?

Obviously to understand the demographic of the peopl supporting the character.

 

[KatKit]

A lot of my favorite fighting game archetypes are dance battlers, glass cannons, elegant/dainty combatants, characters who rely exclusively/heavily on kicks, noncombatant fighters, clumsy combatants, characters that spin around excessively, characters that prioritize acrobatics (especially flipping) over strength, characters who fight with singing, robots, lethal chefs, healers, characters that fight with magic wands, archers, magical pugilists, and characters that fight with prehensile hair, or some combination of all of the above. That has nothing to do with gender; Smash could use a lot more of that. It just so happens that those are the archetypes that are typically assigned to female characters.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

It still bothers me that out of all our 3rd Parties, Bayonetta and Kazooie (who is half a character) are still the only 3rd Party females we have. Obviously there are plenty of female led 3rd Party series they could add, but I feel like among represented 3rd Parties, adding Ms. Pac-Man and Chun-Li, you know, two of the most iconic female video game characters of all time, would go a long way in terms of amending that, since they appear alongside Pac-Man and Ryu in literally everything else (and would help make representation for both of those franchises feel complete). Among 1st Parties, it's still a crime we don't have Dixie Kong and she feels like by far the biggest gaping hole in the 1st Party roster, especially if you don't count Assist Trophies. I feel like Zelda could also use Impa as the first non Triforce wielder considering her typical importance in the story and recurring role in the series.

 

[Deleted member]

I still want Pauline in Smash (and many Mario spin offs or hopefully Switch ports of games such as 3D World) because she is literally my favourite Mario character.

I have a lot of nostalgia value for the Mario vs Donkey Kong series as I used to play the NDS entries of the series quite a lot as a child. Pauline was part of the main cast and since then I have her associated with nostalgic memories of those games.

And yeah, I believe she could use the Minis on her moveset. Maybe sometime later today I will share here a Google Document of how I imagine her working as a fighter.

 

[MaddaD]

Why are so many people in this topic using hard to read dark colored text?

The need to stand out. I'd pay $10 a month if I could limit the color choices available to people.

On topic though, the reason why I think a lot of hubbub happens in the thread is just the polarizing nature of the poll itself. It's pretty "us vs them" when the majority of replies have just been "idc, as long as the character is fun to play" with no option for that opinion

 

[Night Gale]

There's actually an option that lets you disable viewing custom colors.

 

[staindgrey]

No one is disregarding any character because they're female. No one looks at a character like Lara Croft and says "Yeah she's cool, but Master Chief is a dude so I'd rather have him".

Aaaaaaaaactually, I know a handful of people who would say exactly that, unironically.

Overall, the status quo has shifted and female protagonists/playable characters have become more desired/accepted. There's no doubt at all about that. But the overall consensus doesn't apply to every individual, and there are still people who absolutely do want to play as male and male only, because somehow playing as a gender that isn't their own feels... I don't know, humiliating?

I'm not trying to justify their beliefs because, frankly, I think it's childish bull****, but I like to try and avoid the trap of assuming "no one" or "everyone" on these things.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

Aaaaaaaaactually, I know a handful of people who would say exactly that, unironically.

And yet those people are the minority, and the exception. Even if you know a few, 90% if not more of the people that are at all interested in Smash are not going to dislike a character because they're female. I'm okay with saying "no one" on these things because there's such a small amount of people that do believe it, it's not worth mentioning. It's the reasoning I would say that no one wants Arthur Reed in Smash, despite the fact that there was a support thread made for him.

If it really is an issue, I'll change my phrasing from now on to "no normal person".

 

[staindgrey]

And yet those people are the minority, and the exception. Even if you know a few, 90% if not more of the people that are at all interested in Smash are not going to dislike a character because they're female. I'm okay with saying "no one" on these things because there's such a small amount of people that do believe it, it's not worth mentioning. It's the reasoning I would say that no one wants Arthur Reed in Smash, despite the fact that there was a support thread made for him.

If it really is an issue, I'll change my phrasing from now on to "no normal person".

It's not an "issue" as in a moderator's stance. It's my own personal one. I'm not dictating so much as sharing my thoughts. You can do as you wish.

The use of absolutes in language is dangerous because it excludes those who are in the minority, making them feel as if they can't even be a part of the discussion. Now, regarding Smash character fanbases, obviously the language we use isn't nearly as important as it is with real life issues, but I think it's important to try and exclude "no one" and "everyone" as a force of habit in order to avoid needlessly antagonizing others or missing out on other points of view.

But yeah. Smash characters. Boys being weird about playing as girls. That's all super minor on the scale of "things to worry about your language while discussing". Lol.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

It's not an "issue" as in a moderator's stance. It's my own personal one. I'm not dictating so much as sharing my thoughts. You can do as you wish.

The use of absolutes in language is dangerous because it excludes those who are in the minority, making them feel as if they can't even be a part of the discussion. Now, regarding Smash character fanbases, obviously the language we use isn't nearly as important as it is with real life issues, but I think it's important to try and exclude "no one" and "everyone" as a force of habit in order to avoid needlessly antagonizing others or missing out on other points of view.

But yeah. Smash characters. Boys being weird about playing as girls. That's all super minor on the scale of "things to worry about your language while discussing". Lol.

Oh I figured it wasn't a rule-breaking issue, but if it was an issue in the conversation I was just specifying what I meant, for you or whoever else may read it.
I understand your want for more precise wording and what not!

 

[staindgrey]

Oh I figured it wasn't a rule-breaking issue, but if it was an issue in the conversation I was just specifying what I meant, for you or whoever else may read it.
I understand your want for more precise wording and what not!

I come from a Bible Belt background and a white suburban town where "everyone" did this and "no one" did that, and that sadly shaped and confined my worldview for the first two decades of my life. I assumed things that were only disproven when I stopped saying that and listened.

But this is a far weightier conversation than what belongs in this thread lol. Sorry for getting preachy.

 

[Deleted member]

A promise is a promise.

Here’s my Google Document on which I showcase how I imagine Pauline working as a Smash fighter:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-4nRKjK8clekvVX-O5GvGeBFVWd0KizlUrCyRW6Xw5Q

I tried to take as many elements as possible from her most iconic appearances in a way that fits the scheme of Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

Sidenote: Merry Christmas to everyone.

 

[Ben Holt]

I come from a Bible Belt background and a white suburban town where "everyone" did this and "no one" did that, and that sadly shaped and confined my worldview for the first two decades of my life. I assumed things that were only disproven when I stopped saying that and listened.

But this is a far weightier conversation than what belongs in this thread lol. Sorry for getting preachy.

Same. Though I was a Leftist by the time I was 16.
Wonder if it had to do with me coming out as bisexual (now pansexual) when I was 14. I figured if they got something as basic as the existence of gay people wrong (this was back when "being gay is a choice" was a popular line), they probably got just about everything else wrong.

 

[Deleted member]

A promise is a promise.

Here’s my Google Document on which I showcase how I imagine Pauline working as a Smash fighter:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-4nRKjK8clekvVX-O5GvGeBFVWd0KizlUrCyRW6Xw5Q

I tried to take as many elements as possible from her most iconic appearances in a way that fits the scheme of Smash.

This actually looks good. Mix between Peach/Daisy and Sonic? I'd like that.