Twisted Fate Mafia [D3 BEGINS, DEADLINE: 3/8 at 11:59 PM EST]

[Maven89]

Spak you didn't understand my last point, I know you say you were just playing Devil's Advocate, that's my point. If you're playing devil's advocate, you're not actually defending, when the main defense I've seen (or remember seeing) for you being town is your defense of Kantrip. My point was that it's hollow, and not out of line with scum actions.

I am very surprised to see that defense, though

 

[Spak]

Spak you didn't understand my last point, I know you say you were just playing Devil's Advocate, that's my point. If you're playing devil's advocate, you're not actually defending, when the main defense I've seen (or remember seeing) for you being town is your defense of Kantrip. My point was that it's hollow, and not out of line with scum actions.

Ohhh, OK. That makes more sense.

I am very surprised to see that defense, though

Which one? The defense of town!Gheb, the not-defense of Kantrip, the defense of me in relation to my not-defense of Kantrip, or the defense of my not-defense from me misunderstanding what defense you were referring to?

This is getting kinda confusing lol.

 

[Maven89]

The Gheb defense

 

[Xatres]

First things first, my reaction to the Gheb flip:

1) Anyone who is not taking a serious look at my slot needs to start right now. I don't want to spend the whole day with people absent-mindedly saying they don't like my slot just for a wagon to form at the last minute. If you have a case to make against me, make it now.

2) I stand by that it was a good lynch. It sucks to have a bad scumread, but I think Gheb's flip will do a lot to galvanize the town around a good lynch candidate today, assuming we don't get bogged down in inactivity and apathy.

So what do we learn from Gheb's lynch?

1) First, here was how the Gheb or J question played out in the before the hammer came down.

Gheb:
---> Xatres - The main advocate.
---> Spak - Who was on the verge of defending Gheb before being convinced based on my reasoning.
---> TSYK - Who had been pushing (in his own way) for Gheb the entire day.
---> Phoenix - Who came in and broke the initial tie.

J:
---> Ryker - Who started the push.
---> Gheb - Who voted only for survival
---> RR - Who made a fairly comprehensive case at the last wire
---> Maven - Who was in favor of lynching Gheb until RR's case changed his mind
---> Dastrn - Who was suspicious of both, was mostly in favor of J over Gheb, but ended up jumping to Gheb in the final minutes

2) No one every refuted my case on Gheb. I don't really know what to make of this, given how apathetic town as has been. So far, there have been 3 big pushes in the game -- Kantrip, Gheb, and J. Kantrip's case got some half-hearted pushback from Spak, and J's lynch got at least some measure of defense from myself and others -- although Maven at least was swayed over to side with his lynch. Meanwhlie my case against Gheb was argued against pretty much on the basis of "it's better to lynch an inactive" and "J's a better target."

This is the first time this has happened to me. I tend to sit in my armchair until I have a large case, then unload all at once. Sometimes I nail scum. Other times my target makes a well-reasoned defense and we move on. Other times the townie implodes and gets lynched because he couldn't take the pressure (Soup in FE:Awakening). But I've never been in a situation where no one bothered to engage with my case and just let the lynch go through.

I wish I could have asked why no one was pushing back on me yesterDay, before the flip, but I was caught up just trying to get people to POST to think of it.

3) Two people jumped onto the lynch at the last minute, and one person jumped off.

First, Phoenix came in when town opinion was evenly split and dropped his support on Gheb. However, he also did so with the comment "Not sure what I'm thinking if he flips scum." Basically admitting he didn't support EITHER lynch, but simply wanted to prevent a no lynch. When I pressed him on why he chose Gheb over J, he said "My own reasoning since then really. I haven't been given a formidable argument to change my mind." That's it. Nothing else.

Second, Maven jumped off the Gheb wagon for the J wagon. This was intended to break the tie, if Dastrn had not swung back to Gheb in the end.

Finally, Dastrn swings from J to Gheb. He had been supporting J over Gheb the whole time, and dropped this vote AFTER RR had made his full case on J. Dastrn then comes into D3 claiming he was planning to push RR had he not been NK'd.

4) Two people pushed the bad lynch from the beginning

First, TSYK had been sporatically posting about Gheb with varying levels of assuredness all day.

Second, I pushed for a Gheb lynch after a reread over Gheb, Dastrn, and Spak's play.

SO HOW HAVE THE SUBSEQUENT DEVELOPMENTS AFFECTED MY READS?

As promised, here's how my reads were affected:

Dastrn ---- I'm definitely not as staunchly holding to my town read as before. I still think I have a good handle on when he's town and when he's scum my posting style alone (his scum game is usually fairly obvious). However, his reads have *consistently* been bad this game and I don't understand what made him hop over to Gheb at the end of the day. I need to at least consider him in possible scumteams.

J ---- I continue to have trouble reading J (as per usual). I need to reread the case on him.

TSYK ---- Still unsure. He wanted the Gheb lynch all day, before I made my case. So you can't call him opportunistic, but he's also putting off so many newbie vibes he's very hard to read.

Maven ---- I find it hard to believe that scum, knowing the Gheb lynch was in the bag, would jump over to J at the last second. Unless Maven is in league with J or Dastrn, I don't see how his actions make sense as scum. For J, he may have been going for the bus. For Dastrn, they could have arranged to put themselves on opposite sides of the issue or, in the case of J/Maven/Dastrn -- for Dastrn to come in and save J at the end.

Phoenix ---- Need to a do a solid reread. I gave him strong town reads early on, based on how he interacted with Dastrn. He reacted to Dastrn's play the same way I've seen townies react to mechanical play on numerous occassions. Since then, he's made moves that were mostly null in my book. I have no idea who his connections are with off the top of my head.

Ryker ---- Town - Essentially mod confirmed

Spak ---- I'm glad he posted his planned case in defense of Gheb, but I also wish he had posted it before the flip. I have a lingering scumlean from my big reread yesterDay, but I need to look over the past few pages again to get a better beat on him.

POSSIBLE SCUMTEAMS

At this point, these are the scumteams I'm mulling over. Not posting them in any particularly order.

J/Spak/????

J/TSYK/????

Spak/TSYK/????

Dastrn/Phoenix/????

Dastrn/Maven/????

Also, for kicks and giggles, here's how I think a Xatres/Dastrn scumteam would probably look:

Xatres/TSYK/Dastrn - We buddy up by playing the brother card, then coach TSYK to keep sounding as newbie as possible -- Dastrn , admit it, that's totally how we'd have played that situation

 

[Spak]

Omw home. Haven't read the post, but at first blush, that FoS is disgusting, IMO.

Now that you've presumably had time to read, do you think the FoS is still disgusting?

 

[Maven89]

Just going to say, I was arguing Gheb was scum back on day 1 and started voting him real early day 2, I think I was actually the first to do so and kept my vote on him the entire day until the end. I don't remember TSYK being a Gheb pusher at all, though I'll look for that tomorrow

 

[Corps phoenix]

The main gripe I have with your FoS on J/TSYK is that it's not very thought out and filled with more holes than Swiss cheese, but more importantly I'm wondering why this is just now an issue instead of days before because J has been defending TSYK nearly all game.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Above is Spak . On mobile and just wanted to get this out there while it was on my mind.

 

[Spak]

The main gripe I have with your FoS on J/TSYK is that it's not very thought out and filled with more holes than Swiss cheese, but more importantly I'm wondering why this is just now an issue instead of days before because J has been defending TSYK nearly all game.

I had J on the back burner until last night. I didn't really see any reason for him to be of concern because I didn't go back to actively re-read the slot until N2 and nobody was really making a case against him until Ryu came in an hour before deadline. After re-analyzing the slot I decided that J is the most likely to be scum, and I put TSYK on a team with him due to the obvious attempts at distancing himself.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

.....

Very well then, he leaves the thread the instant he gets the smallest amount of pressure and just leaves for a few days. I sometimes see him in-thread after asking for clarification on something, but then he just ducks out again and I don't get an answer until halfway through the phase. His play hasn't shown anything town-related, you've been giving him a free pass the entire game, and you've never had him as a scum suspect. He's had the lowest post count all game, and for all we know he could be coasting with the occasional prod-dodge derp. I'm not sure if he's scum, I'm not sure if he's town, he's a complete shot in the dark and I'm starting to think we should've PL'd him D1. Near the end of D2 his slot sounded near-suicidal, to the point where I'm starting to think he was trying to oversell him being OK with death.

.....

OK then, I think that you and TSYK are a team. You've been protecting him at every chance you get, you've written everything off as a noobish mistake, then put him as a strong town lean to top it off. He's never interacted with you directly and never even mentions you until he voted you last Sunday (I assume that's you telling him to get a bus, since you were sure you would be dead and posted a long "woe is me" speech even after Gheb was hammered), which leads me to believe that he's attempting to distance himself from you, but also doesn't know that completely ignoring the scummate is almost as bad as buddying with him.

FoS: J/TSYK

He leaves without pressure too.

I don't know why you think TSYK not mentioning J is scummy considering that he's failed to say anything about a larger portion of the cast than that. I also don't know how you're able to stretch that J vote to mean that they are on the same team. I guess stretch is the right word for most of that post.

 

[Dastrn]

Xatres haha, yes, that's probably how we'd play with TSYK.

 

[Dastrn]

I did not mean to click post reply on that by itself...mouse slip.

I also wanted to say that I have more thoughts, but I slept in and missed like 40 minutes of work, and then spent the next 20 reading through mafia instead of writing code, so I need to work for a couple hours before I can really put any time into this. be back later.

Eyes on: Spak, Xatres, J in that order.

 

[ThatSmasherYouKnow]

If you guys are truly trying to get a read on me, the least you could do is ask me questions. I'll answer them as long as you ask them. But if you keep on randomly pairing me with a scum team, you're not going anywhere. I'm here, and I'm answering.

 

[Dastrn]

Explain your biggest scum read, your biggest town read, and the people you have no clue on.

 

[Dastrn]

I'm here, and I'm answering.

 

[ThatSmasherYouKnow]

I'm posting from mobile so this might not be as in-depth as I want it to be, so I'm gonna post the reads, and I'll explain them a bit later. My current scum reads are: J and mayyyyybe you and Xatres. I feel like you and Xatres are scum buddies because Xatres keeps hiding under the defense that, since you two are brothers, he KNOWS that you're town. I mean, I could be wrong here, but that's the vibe I'm getting from you two, and J is just in there because through my eyes, even tho he has me as a town read, is the scummiest out of everyone else for reasons already stated by other players. That's it for now.

 

[ThatSmasherYouKnow]

Ninja'd!

 

[ThatSmasherYouKnow]

The delay here is striking me as odd. It's making me feel like I guessed correctly and now you guys are discussing how to answer to this. I dunno, feels weird, especially considering that J was just watching the thread. Just pointing it out, it seems suspicious.

 

[ThatSmasherYouKnow]

The activity here is mindnumbing, everyone argueing. /sarcasm

 

[ThatSmasherYouKnow]

Arguing sry. Not like anyone's here.

 

[#HBC | J]

I have a question regarding people's suspicions on me. I do not seem to recall nearly anyone stating a reason as to why I am scum and it seems more like people are just having me as a scum-read to just throw a name in there somewhere and something that everyone has picked up on a trend that seems off to me. Literally everyone has me as a possible scum-read, but no one seems to be stating why. Sparky has tried, but as stated: It's full of holes and weak reasonings that could be dissembled in an easy process. Heck, everyone has vocally presented they have a problem with Sparky's FOS on Myself yet everyone still has me as a scum-read (minus Corps).

So the question I would like to state is can people actually lay down some whys as to why I am scum? The one case against me was the fact that I made a case against Ryker that was founded basically on logic and I will say this: I got a wagon going after a day-phase of no one doing anything and dog-piling Kanty on D1 and I got a huge following with my case on him and people were ready to lynch him until Laundry came in and clarified what he was claiming after he initially messed up. I stand by fully on my Ryker push and at the time of it, it was relevant, important, and well-founded. That's why it got such buzz.

My defense is currently the offense being presented against me. There is no offense, therefore there is no reason to defend myself. Until someone provides consistent and real reasoning as to why I should be lynched, I am going to be focusing my attention on figuring out which of the 5 people remaining are the scum-team and where I want to lynch today.

 

[Dastrn]

The delay here is striking me as odd. It's making me feel like I guessed correctly and now you guys are discussing how to answer to this. I dunno, feels weird, especially considering that J was just watching the thread. Just pointing it out, it seems suspicious.

I was (for the first time in a while) afk for most of the day. nice try, though.

 

[Spak]

Sorry, I was playing Smash after school with my friends. Reading up.

He leaves without pressure too.

I don't know why you think TSYK not mentioning J is scummy considering that he's failed to say anything about a larger portion of the cast than that. I also don't know how you're able to stretch that J vote to mean that they are on the same team. I guess stretch is the right word for most of that post.

I guess it makes sense for J trying to buddy up with TSYK (with a scum J and a town TSYK), he did that with me when I was a complete noob in RoDG. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'm posting from mobile so this might not be as in-depth as I want it to be, so I'm gonna post the reads, and I'll explain them a bit later. My current scum reads are: J and mayyyyybe you and Xatres. I feel like you and Xatres are scum buddies because Xatres keeps hiding under the defense that, since you two are brothers, he KNOWS that you're town. I mean, I could be wrong here, but that's the vibe I'm getting from you two, and J is just in there because through my eyes, even tho he has me as a town read, is the scummiest out of everyone else for reasons already stated by other players. That's it for now.

I would be more inclined to like your reasoning for scum!Xatres if he didn't post this earlier:

Dastrn ---- I'm definitely not as staunchly holding to my town read as before. I still think I have a good handle on when he's town and when he's scum my posting style alone (his scum game is usually fairly obvious). However, his reads have *consistently* been bad this game and I don't understand what made him hop over to Gheb at the end of the day. I need to at least consider him in possible scumteams.

This sorta indicates that he realized the town read he gave wasn't completely indicative of alignment.

I have a question regarding people's suspicions on me. I do not seem to recall nearly anyone stating a reason as to why I am scum and it seems more like people are just having me as a scum-read to just throw a name in there somewhere and something that everyone has picked up on a trend that seems off to me. Literally everyone has me as a possible scum-read, but no one seems to be stating why. Sparky has tried, but as stated: It's full of holes and weak reasonings that could be dissembled in an easy process. Heck, everyone has vocally presented they have a problem with Sparky's FOS on Myself yet everyone still has me as a scum-read (minus Corps).

So the question I would like to state is can people actually lay down some whys as to why I am scum? The one case against me was the fact that I made a case against Ryker that was founded basically on logic and I will say this: I got a wagon going after a day-phase of no one doing anything and dog-piling Kanty on D1 and I got a huge following with my case on him and people were ready to lynch him until Laundry came in and clarified what he was claiming after he initially messed up. I stand by fully on my Ryker push and at the time of it, it was relevant, important, and well-founded. That's why it got such buzz.

My defense is currently the offense being presented against me. There is no offense, therefore there is no reason to defend myself. Until someone provides consistent and real reasoning as to why I should be lynched, I am going to be focusing my attention on figuring out which of the 5 people remaining are the scum-team and where I want to lynch today.

OK then, I'll give you some points on why I think you're scum, and I'll restate the questions that you refused to respond to earlier.

Questions:

• Could you please clarify why you think that Dastrn and Xastres aren't a scumteam if "it has nothing to do with their interactions?"
  
• Could you please go into detail on why you think Ryu's case was bad?

Points against you:

• You give TSYK town-points for something you wouldn't have given anyone else town-points for, defend him constantly, and go out of your way to say how townie he's playing (even though he's been inactive most of the game and tends to disappear when someone asks him anything). It looks like you're trying to buddy up with the newbie, something I have experienced with you first-hand.
• Nothing of your play has lead me in the direction that you could be town.
• You've sat back and waited for lynches to happen, and I've not seen you proactively scumhunt all game long
• You posted a "woe is me" post after Gheb had already gotten hammered. If you didn't see it you should have tried saying "I'm here and ready to join the Gheb wagon," but I suspect you knew Gheb was town and wanted to be as far away from the wagon as possible. You said in the post that you weren't willing to kill a slot you were guessing was town, but when the options are a town lean and a confirmed town (from your PoV), why would you pick the former? I'm guessing you saw it since it was 6 minutes post-hammer and the mod had already confirmed the hammer, so I think you were just trying to make yourself look better for toDay's sake.
• Throughout the game, you have refused to take strong stances on relevant issues (other than in the example given above) and your vote is rarely on your scumpick. You say that you wanted me dead D1, but you put your vote on Del and never changed it (as shown in the final votecount). D2 you wanted Maven dead, but neglected to actually vote him until the lynchpool has already been narrowed down to you and Gheb. Your only explanation for voting Maven was "sticking to my guns," and voting for someone outside of the lynchpool is more likely to cause confusion and encourage a NL than actually help town. In addition, you're criticizing town for not lynching me yet, despite you never casting a vote on my slot.
  
• You say people like Dastrn who have been trying to make informed reads all game look scummy because they've been wrong (in comparison to your perfect record), but if you were so sure they were all town, why didn't you make any cases to defend your perspective of town!Gheb or town!Kantrip? From my PoV it looks like you're seeing the game with a knowledge of who is scum and who is town (both of your last posts of the day make it look like you're confident you're right, without giving any real reasoning all phase), and I honestly don't know if I can see you from a townie perspective.

Prove me wrong and I'll happily remove my FoS from you. I do believe that this is appropriate, however:

Un-FoS: TSYK

If my assumption about J trying to buddy up with TSYK is correct, he's probably town and the FoS is unwarranted.

 

[ThatSmasherYouKnow]

Okay, I'm here, and Spak has a really good point. I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of J trying to buddy with me to make it look like I'm scum as well. If he goes down, he wants to take me with him. It's only logical. Now I feel stupid for not seeing that lol.

• You give TSYK town-points for something you wouldn't have given anyone else town-points for, defend him constantly, and go out of your way to say how townie he's playing (even though he's been inactive most of the game and tends to disappear when someone asks him anything). It looks like you're trying to buddy up with the newbie, something I have experienced with you first-hand.

• this basically summarizes the way that J interacts with me.

 

[Maven89]

I have a question regarding people's suspicions on me. I do not seem to recall nearly anyone stating a reason as to why I am scum and it seems more like people are just having me as a scum-read to just throw a name in there somewhere and something that everyone has picked up on a trend that seems off to me. Literally everyone has me as a possible scum-read, but no one seems to be stating why.

See I don't believe this at all, you already mentioned RYu's posts so you clearly read it. Why would you lie about this?

 

[Xatres]

I'm posting from mobile so this might not be as in-depth as I want it to be, so I'm gonna post the reads, and I'll explain them a bit later. My current scum reads are: J and mayyyyybe you and Xatres. I feel like you and Xatres are scum buddies because Xatres keeps hiding under the defense that, since you two are brothers, he KNOWS that you're town. I mean, I could be wrong here, but that's the vibe I'm getting from you two, and J is just in there because through my eyes, even tho he has me as a town read, is the scummiest out of everyone else for reasons already stated by other players. That's it for now.

This is actually the first time Dastrm and I have played together outside our hydra. My strong town read mostly comes from the fact that I've read some of Dastrn's old scum game, and he's usually pretty bad and gets lynched early. That, combined with natural brotherly gut reads, made me confident coming in that he was town.

My read is only faltering now that we're this deep in and haven't hit scum yet, combined with Dast's bad reads. I have to at least CONSIDER scumteams that include him. To do otherwise would be hubris.

I'm in a similar position with J. He's been just on the town side of null to me most of this game, but i also have freely sdmitted he's hard for me to read. But again, at this stage of the game, I have to consider possible scum teams that include him.

ThatSmasherYouKnow - If J, Dastrn, and I are at the top of your watch list right now, would you consider a J/Dastrn/Xatres scumteam a possibiity? If not, who would you peg as likely partners?

 

[Xatres]

Ninja'd - Maven89 - I had the same thought. J is mischaracterizing the state of suspitions on him. I know more than one person (myself included) has had him in the null pile since D2, and RR made a fairly comprehensive case on him yesterDay as well.

Btw - Posting from phone and may disappear soon. I should be on and off tomorrow.

 

[ThatSmasherYouKnow]

ThatSmasherYouKnow - If J, Dastrn, and I are at the top of your watch list right now, would you consider a J/Dastrn/Xatres scumteam a possibiity? If not, who would you peg as likely partners?

I don't really think that scumteam would be a real possibility. It would probably be Dastrn/Xatres/????. Or J/???/???. I wouldn't combine them, it just doesn't seem like it would work, despite the fact that Dastrn backed off of J and voted for Gheb at the end of the day, I'm pretty sure that that was because he was convinced Gheb was scum, as was I.

 

[Xatres]

I don't really think that scumteam would be a real possibility. It would probably be Dastrn/Xatres/????. Or J/???/???. I wouldn't combine them, it just doesn't seem like it would work, despite the fact that Dastrn backed off of J and voted for Gheb at the end of the day, I'm pretty sure that that was because he was convinced Gheb was scum, as was I.

You have no inclination of who may be J's partner?

 

[ThatSmasherYouKnow]

Tbh, it looks like J is trying to isolate everyone else and try to only buddy with me, which is really scummy through my eyes, but I do not have any idea who his partners are if he is scum.

 

[#HBC | J]

See I don't believe this at all, you already mentioned RYu's posts so you clearly read it. Why would you lie about this?

I am not lying about it. I am saying I want the people who are alive and saying that I am scum to come ahead and post reasons as to why I am scum instead of just like "Well, dead man posted a case." which has pretty much been debunked since it was 100% based around my Ryker push and that's it.

I'm talking about toDAY and the players alive.

 

[Spak]

I am not lying about it. I am saying I want the people who are alive and saying that I am scum to come ahead and post reasons as to why I am scum instead of just like "Well, dead man posted a case." which has pretty much been debunked since it was 100% based around my Ryker push and that's it.

I'm talking about toDAY and the players alive.

Scroll up about 8 posts.

 

[#HBC | J]

Questions:

• Could you please clarify why you think that Dastrn and Xastres aren't a scumteam if "it has nothing to do with their interactions?"
  
• Could you please go into detail on why you think Ryu's case was bad?

Their interactions are not what I think they are a scum-team. That's a pretty simple sentence. I do not think Dastrn and Xatres are likely to be a scum-team based on their connection play and I am looking at them more as individuals regarding their play. I think that other people fit better with them as a scum-team if one of them to fit scum. I am not going to force to puzzle pieces that do not fit together. Basically, tl;dr on that is there interactions are stronger with other players then each other for a scum-team and the part of Dastrn asking his own brother to come in and replace to cover for his scum-team would also be disheartening to learn.

I have already done so with pointing out what the main problem with his case was and that was the point of my Ryker case that he tried to paint in a negative light when a majority of the town was poised to accept my case as real. He thought I was having malintent with my push on Ryker when it was 100% substantiated by logic and what had actually happened in the thread until Laundry came in and gave him a pass.

Points against you:

• You give TSYK town-points for something you wouldn't have given anyone else town-points for, defend him constantly, and go out of your way to say how townie he's playing (even though he's been inactive most of the game and tends to disappear when someone asks him anything). It looks like you're trying to buddy up with the newbie, something I have experienced with you first-hand.

I have not defended TSYK at all. I have constantly said that I do not believe that he is scum and that is the most of that, so you are stretching what I am doing with TSYK. I do not feel that he is scum and I feel he is too newbie to be faking what he has been faking. I have not even been trying to buddy him so unless you can quote where I am buddying TSYK, I am going to call this point bull as well. The only person I have actively somewhat buddied would be Corps and that one has actual quotes you could bring up. And yes, I have been giving him town points I can't give to anyone else because TSYK is a player ENTIRELY different then any player in the cast. This is pretty much his first real game of mafia and therefore the tells and signs are going to be different for his slot. If you are honestly saying that because I am actively choosing to take into account that TSYK is a different player than that of someone like Maven/Ryker/Gheb/etc. then I have to ask you to please re-assess how you are playing this game. There isn't a cookie cutter way to scum-hunt and to say that giving someone else town-points for difference of actions is scummy then yeah, no.

• Nothing of your play has lead me in the direction that you could be town.

This isn't really a point, but okay? I believe I said this about you and now you are trying to use my own words against me. But, cool.

• You've sat back and waited for lynches to happen, and I've not seen you proactively scumhunt all game long

Now this is a bold-faced lie. I have been here and posting and scum-hunting. To say I have sat back and waited for lynches is a huge over-exaggerating of what we call "Busy/V-LA" and also the fact that I have been here giving my thoughts on who I believe is scum and who isn't is also just not true. I have pushed slots like Ryker/Maven yesterDay and also I have been looking at different avenues. Just because I am not commenting on the fact of what is considered the "Main topic" of the thread does not mean I am doing work. I have disliked both the Kanty wagon and the Gheb push.

• You posted a "woe is me" post after Gheb had already gotten hammered. If you didn't see it you should have tried saying "I'm here and ready to join the Gheb wagon," but I suspect you knew Gheb was town and wanted to be as far away from the wagon as possible. You said in the post that you weren't willing to kill a slot you were guessing was town, but when the options are a town lean and a confirmed town (from your PoV), why would you pick the former? I'm guessing you saw it since it was 6 minutes post-hammer and the mod had already confirmed the hammer, so I think you were just trying to make yourself look better for toDay's sake.

1.) I was never ready to join the Gheb wagon and I even stated that in a previous post where I voted Maven instead of doing that.
2.) That post was not made with my knowledge that Gheb was hammered or knowing that I wasn't lynch. Take my word for what you will but that is the honest truth and Drunk J is blonde.

• Throughout the game, you have refused to take strong stances on relevant issues (other than in the example given above) and your vote is rarely on your scumpick. You say that you wanted me dead D1, but you put your vote on Del and never changed it (as shown in the final votecount). D2 you wanted Maven dead, but neglected to actually vote him until the lynchpool has already been narrowed down to you and Gheb. Your only explanation for voting Maven was "sticking to my guns," and voting for someone outside of the lynchpool is more likely to cause confusion and encourage a NL than actually help town. In addition, you're criticizing town for not lynching me yet, despite you never casting a vote on my slot.

I have not refused anything. I have taken stances when asked and I have given my opinion. The fact is, my opinion, although correct, has been the opposite of what the mindset of this town is. D2, I wanted Ryker dead and had my vote on him. I voted Maven because I did not want to vote Gheb because I thought the town was making a mistake yet again and I am happy with where my vote was at the end. D1, I wanted you dead over Kanty definitely, but I was not here at deadline for the sake of the quicklynch that happened on Kanty. My vote on Delly was there to get an inactive slot posting and someone who should have been here doing things. There were enough votes on you/Kanty at the time and again I stand by where my vote was. If you wanna add D3 into why my vote isn't on my scum-read, that's because we are in MyLo because of the back-to-back double MLs that have occurred at deadline.

You seem to be more judging me for the fact that I am not here at deadline when the entire town waits till deadline to finally buck up and decide a lynch.

• You say people like Dastrn who have been trying to make informed reads all game look scummy because they've been wrong (in comparison to your perfect record), but if you were so sure they were all town, why didn't you make any cases to defend your perspective of town!Gheb or town!Kantrip? From my PoV it looks like you're seeing the game with a knowledge of who is scum and who is town (both of your last posts of the day make it look like you're confident you're right, without giving any real reasoning all phase), and I honestly don't know if I can see you from a townie perspective.

Where have I said Dastrn is scummy? Even in my most recent post I said I lean town on him. I dislike the fact that everyone is giving him a free pass because he is trying and that isn't a good enough reason to hold someone as everyone's strongest town read. I don't make "Town-cases" for people and that is counter-intuitive. I am not going to do what you did with Kanty and make a rebuttal case every time I disagree with someone's read on someone because that does not help create a paper-trail between scum-reads. It's backwards to make town-cases on people rather than look for scum and also just that's terrible logic to push onto someone as a reason to call them scum.

Your words are literally "Well they were ML'd by the majority of town but why didn't YOU stop them for voting them.". You are trying to push the blame of the MLs onto my slot instead of holding those who pushed those slots and called them scum responsible for their actions. Again, you are playing this game backwards.

 

[#HBC | J]

Scroll up about 8 posts.

Patience is a virtue I've heard.

 

[Corps phoenix]

I think lynching in the brothers is the best option given the dynamic of the two would lead to a tougher choice in the lategame if one of them were scum, and this is of course assuming one of them is scum and I'm not just saying to get rid of that dynamic alone.

 

[Corps phoenix]

The problem I have with Xatres is not his content and what he's saying rather the time of it and when he is doing it. He seems to have all the answers and all the plans in his head and this type of manufactured play seems more akin to a scummer, that or Xatres is just a very process oriented townie. I would like Dastrn to give me more analysis on his brother for starters and how he feels about him more in detail, especially his post analyzing the Gheb wagon.

 

[Spak]

Their interactions are not what I think they are a scum-team. That's a pretty simple sentence. I do not think Dastrn and Xatres are likely to be a scum-team based on their connection play and I am looking at them more as individuals regarding their play. I think that other people fit better with them as a scum-team if one of them to fit scum. I am not going to force to puzzle pieces that do not fit together. Basically, tl;dr on that is there interactions are stronger with other players then each other for a scum-team and the part of Dastrn asking his own brother to come in and replace to cover for his scum-team would also be disheartening to learn.

OK, that's fair.

I have already done so with pointing out what the main problem with his case was and that was the point of my Ryker case that he tried to paint in a negative light when a majority of the town was poised to accept my case as real. He thought I was having malintent with my push on Ryker when it was 100% substantiated by logic and what had actually happened in the thread until Laundry came in and gave him a pass.

That's not all the Ryu case was based on. My case was partially based on Ryu's, which was:

Spoiler: Ryu Case

• "J didn't push hard against the Kantrip lynch last I checked and this post looks like he was on the look out for the wagon, Maven in particular. Even more so if he was that sure Kantrip was a town PR, why didn't he push harder against the wagon?"
  
• "I know J hasn't been as active as usual, but I don't get why this lacks effort to try and stop that wagon and switch it. Even more so he seemed to have interest in Spak but still didn't seem to push it that direction over Kantrip who he was sure was a town PR."
• "I do agree with Ryker that this looks like fishing for credit at the end of the day." (in reference to the end of D1).
  
• "Looking at his back and forth with Ryker, notice again J pretty much ignores Gheb and Maven whom he expressed a lot of interest in going after and voting even before in the post I quoted before. When J does get to the parts on Maven he does a pot calling the kettle black in his #588 where he pretty much says he should have pushed away from Kantrip. If this is the case why are J's Posts going into end of day 1 not doing this and focused elsewhere? He did post and was here even if he was less active than usual, why was his vote on Xatres slot and not spak if he wanted to try this."

Please address the entire case he presented, not just the points you want to.

I have not defended TSYK at all. I have constantly said that I do not believe that he is scum and that is the most of that, so you are stretching what I am doing with TSYK. I do not feel that he is scum and I feel he is too newbie to be faking what he has been faking. I have not even been trying to buddy him so unless you can quote where I am buddying TSYK, I am going to call this point bull as well. The only person I have actively somewhat buddied would be Corps and that one has actual quotes you could bring up. And yes, I have been giving him town points I can't give to anyone else because TSYK is a player ENTIRELY different then any player in the cast. This is pretty much his first real game of mafia and therefore the tells and signs are going to be different for his slot. If you are honestly saying that because I am actively choosing to take into account that TSYK is a different player than that of someone like Maven/Ryker/Gheb/etc. then I have to ask you to please re-assess how you are playing this game. There isn't a cookie cutter way to scum-hunt and to say that giving someone else town-points for difference of actions is scummy then yeah, no.

Here's what I meant about awarding pro-town points with no reason:

^if you think TSYK is scum, I challenge you to tell me how that's not a town-tell.

Please tell me how getting mechanics wrong is a town tell. Misunderstanding how a role works is null; Dastrn did the same exact thing when he asked why we think Ryu isn't traitor, and you didn't count that as pro-town.

It's more about how you've treated the slot. He's been inactive, leaving sporadically, joining the popular wagon without any reasons or content of his own, and you see him as "noobtown". You didn't even consider the possibility of him being scum from page 11 (where you said "could be noobscum or noobtown") to when you posted the huge wall at the start of this phase. Even when you posted the huge wall, you said that TSYK is almost as likely to be town as Corps, who you said you agreed with a vast majority of the time and looks like one of the towniest slots from you PoV. If you are arguing that he couldn't have faked is derps, what makes those derps townie? A noobscum is as likely to derp as a noobtown from what I've seen.

I'll be voting one of Maven, lesser extant Delly if he doesn't post, and once I read Gheb's case I'll pick a side of the Gheb vs. Kanty debacle. That's where I feel today's lynch should lead.

Here you imply that Del is a better PL than TSYK, even though Del had announced a V/LA and has had approximately the same level of experience as TSYK in Mafia games. If that's not a clear indication of undeserved bias towards a slot, I don't know what is.

This isn't really a point, but okay? I believe I said this about you and now you are trying to use my own words against me. But, cool.

If it's not really a point, why did you use it against me in the first place?

Now this is a bold-faced lie. I have been here and posting and scum-hunting. To say I have sat back and waited for lynches is a huge over-exaggerating of what we call "Busy/V-LA" and also the fact that I have been here giving my thoughts on who I believe is scum and who isn't is also just not true. I have pushed slots like Ryker/Maven yesterDay and also I have been looking at different avenues. Just because I am not commenting on the fact of what is considered the "Main topic" of the thread does not mean I am doing work. I have disliked both the Kanty wagon and the Gheb push.

"No scumhunting" may have been an over-exaggeration, but in comparison to your previous games I've played with you, you've not been actively searching for scum. You had a push on Ryker early D2 until he was pretty much mod-confirmed, but I don't really see much of the Maven push; it was more of answering an accusation you didn't know wasn't directed towards you due to a bad use of pronouns.

1.) I was never ready to join the Gheb wagon and I even stated that in a previous post where I voted Maven instead of doing that.
2.) That post was not made with my knowledge that Gheb was hammered or knowing that I wasn't lynch. Take my word for what you will but that is the honest truth and Drunk J is blonde.

1. I know, but if you were town, don't you think it would be better to save a mod-confirmed town slot (yourself) rather than someone you suspect is town (Gheb)? To me, it looks like you were just trying to dodge a wagon that you knew was on a townie.
2. I know that drunk J is kinda ditsy sometimes, but I still find it hard to believe that you didn't know you weren't getting lynched after a votecount 20 minutes before your post stating that you were at L-3, and Dasrn made the hammer 6 minutes before you posted and explicitly stated that was the hammer.

I have not refused anything. I have taken stances when asked and I have given my opinion. The fact is, my opinion, although correct, has been the opposite of what the mindset of this town is. D2, I wanted Ryker dead and had my vote on him. I voted Maven because I did not want to vote Gheb because I thought the town was making a mistake yet again and I am happy with where my vote was at the end. D1, I wanted you dead over Kanty definitely, but I was not here at deadline for the sake of the quicklynch that happened on Kanty. My vote on Delly was there to get an inactive slot posting and someone who should have been here doing things. There were enough votes on you/Kanty at the time and again I stand by where my vote was. If you wanna add D3 into why my vote isn't on my scum-read, that's because we are in MyLo because of the back-to-back double MLs that have occurred at deadline.

You seem to be more judging me for the fact that I am not here at deadline when the entire town waits till deadline to finally buck up and decide a lynch.

It's true that you've given stances and opinions when asked, but my problem is that you've not actively given stances and opinions of your own accord. I was hoping that you would become more active D2, and it looked good for a little bit, but the town confirm on Ryker made your interaction look bad, so you cut your losses and left the thread. In addition, you've refused to take a side and give good reasoning for being there. You said that you wanted me to be gone on D1, but never pushed me on anything. The vote on Delly was find from your perspective, but if you really wanted me dead more than Kantrip, you would've voted for me. You said that you thought Gheb was town, but failed to give adequate reasoning for town!Gheb and didn't change your read when you realized you didn't have any reason for town!Gheb. Your reads this game are little more than "gut feelings," which are easy disguises for having alignment info.

Where have I said Dastrn is scummy? Even in my most recent post I said I lean town on him. I dislike the fact that everyone is giving him a free pass because he is trying and that isn't a good enough reason to hold someone as everyone's strongest town read. I don't make "Town-cases" for people and that is counter-intuitive. I am not going to do what you did with Kanty and make a rebuttal case every time I disagree with someone's read on someone because that does not help create a paper-trail between scum-reads. It's backwards to make town-cases on people rather than look for scum and also just that's terrible logic to push onto someone as a reason to call them scum.

Your words are literally "Well they were ML'd by the majority of town but why didn't YOU stop them for voting them.". You are trying to push the blame of the MLs onto my slot instead of holding those who pushed those slots and called them scum responsible for their actions. Again, you are playing this game backwards.

Sorry, I worded that poorly. You used the MLs as a con against Dastrn, while sitting there with never placed a vote on any publicly-considered lynch candidate for any phase this game. You've kept your hands clean by not picking a valid lynch target on D1 (the lynchpool had already been switched to me and Kantrip) and refusing to protect a mod-confirmed town slot (from your PoV) on D2, which I find a lot more suspicious than someone who has been wrong twice but actually gave adequate reasoning for his actions.

Patience is a virtue I've heard.

Sorry, but when you say you want people to give cases on why people are thinking you're scummy and then ignore a case 8 posts above, then leave for an hour I felt like I needed to make sure you didn't miss the large wall of text.

 

[Spak]

(Sorry for bad formatting paragraph-wise; I didn't have time to proof-read)

 

[Xatres]

The problem I have with Xatres is not his content and what he's saying rather the time of it and when he is doing it. He seems to have all the answers and all the plans in his head and this type of manufactured play seems more akin to a scummer, that or Xatres is just a very process oriented townie. I would like Dastrn to give me more analysis on his brother for starters and how he feels about him more in detail, especially his post analyzing the Gheb wagon.

In what way does making well reasoned arguments constitute "manufactured play?"

 

[Corps phoenix]

In what way does making well reasoned arguments constitute "manufactured play?"

I think I'm gauging more of your attitude and behavior more than anything, though I don't like the end of your post where you try and clunk many different scum scenarios without defining which one is the most important to you. You seem to cover all bases but are lacking in that certain quality that I see in townies, in which that they're not perfect, but you make out all your posts in such a way that you are.