Twisted Fate Mafia [D3 BEGINS, DEADLINE: 3/8 at 11:59 PM EST]

[Dastrn]

I'm curious why you guys think RR was janitored. What are the most likely reasons?



I was honestly going to swing at RR next, and now he's dead and janitored and I'm realizing I'm finding myself without any serious lynch targets outside of maybe J or Spak.

 

[Spak]

Sooo... Should we decide claim order, or should we just claim at our leisure?

 

[Spak]

I'm curious why you guys think RR was janitored. What are the most likely reasons?

RR was probably janitored because as far as I know, there are no other roles/mechanics in this game that would disguise a role on flip.

 

[Spak]

Spoiler

 

[Dastrn]

Yeah after yesterDay, this is not how we want our first 24 hours to go...less than 1 post per hour?

 

[Spak]

Yeah after yesterDay, this is not how we want our first 24 hours to go...less than 1 post per hour?

Do you think we should decide claim order, or do you think we should claim whenever we want to?

 

[Spak]

The level of not caring I'm getting from everyone is amazing. I've been waiting for 5 hours for a reeponse to a simple question and now I have to go to bed, so I guess I'll just claim and hope that tomorrow will be more active. I'm a Vanilla Townie.

 

[Maven89]

Just look at the game rules. If the mafia pick the Janitor, then every even night kill is janitored, and we get the results at the end of the day phase

I doubt they chose to kill him for being the traitor, and I think it's still more likely they killed him because he pushed J

J wants to sit back and do nothing again, but a single misvote could lose the game assuming all the mafia are alive, so we can't vote to get him to play. He makes a big thing about me being scum, I roleclaim, he doesn't seem to care or do anything. Once again, J is lurking.

So lets do this easier: Does anyone have a reason to not want to lynch J?

 

[Xatres]

We need to clear up a few things here.

1) In regards to the idea that RR was an unrecruited traitor.

Should the mafia elect not to recruit the traitor, the traitor gains a
1-shot bulletproof​

If RR were an unrecruited traitor, the mafia NK would have failed. Therefore, RR had to have been town.

2) Janitor vs. Ninja

Turn Mafia Traitor into Recruited Mafia Goon
Turn Mafia Night Kill into Janitor on Even Nights - On every even night, the mafia's night kill will hide the target's alignment and role upon successful shot. This information will be revealed to mafia privately upon shot and town publicly at the end of the following day phase.
Turn Mafia Goon into a Roleblocker - Targets 1 player per night. Upon successful target, that player cannot use his action during the night phase. Neither player nor Roleblocker are informed if their action succeeded.
Turn Mafia Goon into a Role Cop - Investigates 1 player per night and gets the result of "Player is X"
Turn Mafia Goon into a Ninja - Player is immune to tracks.​

The fact that we got a ???? on RR's flip does not necessarily imply Ninja. These are two different mods.

So far, we know of 2 mods mafia has chosen:

1) Roleblocker - Stated by Ryker D2 and pretty much confirmed by Laundry
2) Janitor - Confirmed by RR's flip D3

We also know of 3 confirmed town PRs:

1) Innocent Child - Confirmed by Laundry D1
2) Bodyguard - Confirmed by Kantrip's flip D1
3) Restless Spirit - Stated by Ryker D2 and pretty much confirmed by Laundry

We also have one other PR claimed:

4) Tracker - Claimed by Maven

Assuming Maven is telling the truth, we either have all PRs and mafia mods accounted for or we're still missing one more of each.

All that being said, we can't make the assumption that there's a ninja in the game. That fact doesn't necessarily clear J, as scum-J could simply have chosen not to be the one to perform the NK. I just don't want us jumping to conclusion over what the final setup was.

3) Nature of mafia traitor

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the standard Mafia traitor is simply a mafia member who cannot NK and who cannot communicate secretly. They know who the mafia are, and count towards the mafia's win ratio.

 

[Xatres]

Sooo... Should we decide claim order, or should we just claim at our leisure?

I'm still not convinced a mass claim is in town's best interests. For two reasons:

1) The presence of a janitor means that if RR was a PR, the mafia can use his claim without risk of a CC. In a mylo situation, this gives mafia waaaay too much power to manipulate the town.

2) I've a natural disinclination towards mass claims since Cello forced one D2 of an FF6 themed game back in the day. His desire to "solve" the game resulted in getting the town doctor (me) killed and town eventually losing.

 

[Dastrn]

If the mafia use RR's role in a massclaim, they will be caught when we get RR's flip at the end of toDay.
As long as we manage to not fall for any tricks and still hit one of the the mafia team, we'd have a 2nd one dead to rights for Day 4 and stand a solid chance of winning.
It would all come down to still hitting scum toDay.

I'm not saying I'm supporting a mass claim yet. I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on it yet, but I'm just saying, a fake claim by scum wouldn't sink us.

 

[Dastrn]

Oh, and if RR had a PR, he was one of 6 townies available, and they took a 16% shot and got it right. I think assuming they hit a PR is a big and unlikely assumption.

 

[#HBC | J]

So I'm finally finished my show and able to post more and I want to post my thoughts down in writing more clearly and actually it's time to slap some people metaphorically. Mainly because posts like this:

J wants to sit back and do nothing again, but a single misvote could lose the game assuming all the mafia are alive, so we can't vote to get him to play. He makes a big thing about me being scum, I roleclaim, he doesn't seem to care or do anything. Once again, J is lurking.

So lets do this easier: Does anyone have a reason to not want to lynch J?

Urk me to no end on the fact that 1.) I had posted a quick snipe and 2.) the Day-phase has literally just started and you are going on with the fact of "J is lurking" when that isn't even true nor fair. Yet, you fail to call out Ryker because you are tunnel-visioned onto my slot and being lazy as hell.

Regardless, I am not going to dwell on what seems to be more than likely poor play at this juncture unless Maven just was ballsy to come into the thread and claim unprovoked that he is a tracker. Also let's move onto the other thing that Xatres also pointed out that Ryker was near confirmed by the mod so we can more that likely move forward under the operation of Occam's Razor and suggest that both Ryker and Maven are town w/ PRs if we choose to believe them. Does not excuse their poor play this game especially since Ryker's majority of posts have come from talking to the mod and dipping and Maven has just played not to the best of his ability especially after re-reading the game and his most notiable aspect of his play his been his constant harrassment of activity poilice and not really his scum-hunting skills.

I will also say this currently, no one has a good scum-hunting record at the moment considering that we have had 2 mislynches back to back.

Looking at the game from a black and white view and for one second operate under the notion that Maven/Ryker are telling the truth. We have the following players considered to hold 3 scum: (No, I'm not putting myself in this equation and if you have a problem with it, fight me.)

Xatres
TSYK
Sparky
Dastrn
Corps

So looking at this from that angle, that means that 3 out of 5 of these slots hold the scum-team. (I'm not assuming anything regarding RR being Traitor until it's proven by the mod, I personally think it's unlikely) I am also thinking RR was mainly killed to frame my slot even more because it feels like the scum-team is banking on an easy D3 where I am lynched and they skate off to victory. The problem with toDay is the fact that scum-team can 100% just stick together and all they have to do is fool 1 town member into voting with them and the game is over. That means that it is my job toDay to convince the remainder of town that I am town and not have the game end like it's currently projected to.

However, as much as I can do to convince people, I will have to say people have to reflect on their own about their reads this game. No one has been using ANY of the lynches to adjust their scum-reads nor change their minds about anything because of reasons I cannot seem to pinpoint. No one has come in toDay and said anything about the Gheb lynch and also about what happened during yesterDay besides "Well just lynch J?" which is pure laziness. I'm disappointed greatly in town and that includes myself for not being able to be here as much as I wish, but at the same time this is a town and not just 1 player needing to come in and run the show.

Moving on, we have 5 names to consider. From first glance, I am looking at this as a wash because of a couple of reasons. Dastrn has been wrong on nearly every read he has had this entire game and I can attest to that with evidence. He was a part of the Kanty wagon (You can say that he wasn't the main pusher, but he was still a supporter) then he was one of the driving people behind the Gheb lynch, has been pushing me for a reason he hasn't specified besides just "I had a change of heart", then we have his RR read and currently he turned up dead during the night so odds are more likely to end up that RR is town and until flip, I'm treating it as such. The fact that Dastrn has had this much pull even after being this wrong is actually flabbergasting to me. I think where I lean with Dastrn is that he is too derpy to be scum and just is having a bad game, regardless, I am not taking him out of my scum-pool by any means. I think Dastrn definitely has some points for him and against him.

Pros for Dastrn:

1.) He doesn't seem to have malintent behind his posts and I also just feel that he has been really genuine in his scum-hunting attempts as unsuccessful as they have been.
2.) There were points in his scum-hunting that lead me to believe that he really is just trying to find scum and seemed to drop town-tells in the notion of being strong in his beliefs:

WHOA

RED FLAG HERE

If you believe J thought the slot was scum, then you are saying you believe J is town. But if you believe he is town, you shouldn't be voting for him.

This is a huge contradiction.

RR I believe you are scum. I think it's likely that Gheb is your partner.

However, this could also be construed as a con with him pushing very silly things and trying to turn them into scum-tells, but I am choosing to look at this more as a pro for my lists go.

Cons for Dastrn.

1.) He's been really REALLY wrong on all of his reads and that has shown through blatant evidence in flips. (And more from my PoV considering he has me as a scum-read.)
2.) He asks rather pointless questions and the conclusions he draws from them are scatter and don't amount to much.
3.) YesterDay his, what I will call random, switch of his reads seemed rather despondent to the rest of his play. Adding on to the fact, that after he was wrong on Gheb and what I assume RR, he isn't looking at different angles of the game and seems to be digging his feet into the ground on the J/Sparky side which doesn't look good from a town PoV, especially if his current gameplan has turned up sour.

Dastrn is someone I could see myself re-evaluating over and over again and someone that I think a lot of people have taken off their current lynch pool purely based on superficial reasons. I am not saying that I have Dastrn as a scum-read by any means. I am saying that Dastrn is more of a null read for me now with a slight favor in town due to vibes. Most of my cons with Dastrn can be attributed to poor play>scummy play. That's where I am leaning currently. However, if someone came in with a case on Dastrn, I would be interested in seeing the "whats/whys" behing it.

Let's move onto his brother for continuity sake. Xatres is a slot that I have had decent feels around for his entrance into the game. However, most of his posts do not really have anything that leans towards finding scum. That is a big con against Xatres. I recall him saying more that he would rather not lynch someone but he was here for hammer yesterDay. His Gheb push is something that makes me look at him with a sideways glance. His posts thus far have been logical and that's it which is null. Honestly, my gut has Xatres as one of the more likely candidates for being scum and that is something I do not really like saying considering I think Xatres is the only reason why I am still alive yesterDay so it somewhat pains me to call him a scum candidate because it is like biting the hand that feeds you in that regard, but I can't think that just because he was nice and defended me a defeded me a bit doesn't mean I should not be thinking who fits the best into the scum-team.

Currently, I think one of the brothers is scum. I would lean Xatres>Dastrn, but I wanna think on this pile more. It has nothing to do with their interactions, it is just how I am looking at the game and it makes sense to me that they would not be on a scum-team. (though, if Dastrn was scum and got his brother to replace into a scum slot due to replacement shenanigans, I'm gonna be disheartened because that's meh play)

Alright, now here is where the pile gets a bit trickier for me. TSYK is probably the one in this pile that reads the most towniest to me out of them all because I do not think his derps have been faked and I do not think that he is that good of an actor to play off half the stuff he has said as him just being new to the game. I do not think it is highly likely that he is scum, but I could just be reading scum-tells for newbie tells.. However, no one has pointed out a reason as to why TSYK is scum because they have just been saying over and over again that his post style is confusing and I will admit to that is true, but how does that make him scum? Newer players are usually the bane of my existence when going over reads because I could see them as trying to learn and have been burned in the past. Something about my gut is really strong on the fact that TSY is just town with not really understanding how this game is. I'm not confident to bet the game on him being town though. I am just hoping he is town for the sake of my sanity to make things easier. I would like to point to his first post of toDay not understanding the Janitor/Traitor stuff as a point in his direction as a town-slip.

However, if TSYK is going to be town, I would have to change my read on Corps. I do not feel that is fair because Corps is literally on the same page regarding a lot of things this game from me and just has a lesser post style then mine. I like his play and there has been nothing that really points mein the direction that he could be scum minus the fact that I have been the one to prod him to give content each time, but when he does I can see what he is thinking and where he is thinking. I think that Corps is still one person that I need to see more form on D3. I just do not really believe him to be scum under the impression I have of him and again, no one has really pointed out why Corps should be looked at and my thoughts on his posts have been good. If I had to lean on which of TSYK or Corps to lynch, I would choose TSYK and chance it to me being wrong on a newbie rather than betray my gut and lynch Corps over pure consipracy of him possibly being scum playing me.

Then the last person would be Sparky and that is a slot that has been on mycan die list for quite some time now and someone that I feel would be the person to have the highest probability of flipping scum out of these 5. If we start from D1, we have his odd response to Gheb's case vs. Kanty and then the accidental hammer of him as well. Then come into D2, he never really made an impact and continued to sit on his Gheb scum-read that he has had for quite some time. Nothing of his play has lead me in the direction that he could be town and it is actually a read that pretty much everyone in the game has been agreeing upon since D1 and I firmly believe that Sparky should have been the slot lynched D1>Kanty ESPECIALLY after Kanty claimed PR and everyone decided to sit on their thumbs. If we look at it from that angle, Sparky dodged the metaphorical bullet on that one because the following day both Dastrn/RR decided to flip the script and make the attention of the game onto Myself/Gheb and then they both had Sparky on the back-burner. I do not get the fact that some people have been calling Sparky obv-town and that makes me scratch my head because it doesn't make sense to me how that slot can be town and yet people can have a full scum-team.

Another point I would like to bring up against EVERY player in the game is that no one is looking for scum-teams. They are all just lynching people to lynch people and not because they feel that there is a solid connection between them. Hell, yesterDay people were saying that Gheb/Myself were connected or Gheb and someone were, yet when we come into toDay, no one is changing their minds when the fact is they were wrong. That is something I challenge people to do is look for the pairings.

Currently I am looking at Sparky and one of the bros. for my lynch pool and I can honestly say I feel there is a scum-team there. My fall back would be one of TSYK/Corps and I would go TSY as of this post.

These are also my thoughts operating under the choice to believe that Ryker/Maven are town. (One by mod more than anything and one to simplify my reads.)

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Got hired. Will be here after work.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm curious why you guys think RR was janitored. What are the most likely reasons?

Because why not? Smoke em if you've got em.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

#HBC | J you say there were players calling Spak obv town and players connecting you with Gheb yesterday. Can you give me names for those?

Alright, now I'm out. I'll be back after work.

 

[Corps phoenix]

To be fair J, you were the only one who mentioned me most of the time, but that's aside the point - why are you so inclined to believe Maven is real suddenly? You were hard-pressed on both and I don't know why scum fakeclaiming is not out of the realm of possibility, given we don't know what modifications the mafia have made in the first place. What strikes me more is that Maven is not considering you clear either.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Your analysis about the brothers is good especially though and I have not cared for Xatres myself, though mostly everyone has been giving Dastrn a complete pass maybe just due to the sheer effort being made by him. If anything, the last days have shown that it is not necessarily effort that is making people townie right now, and I too don't want to give Dastrn a pass just because he seems like he cares the most.

There are still things I want cleared up that I feel should've been cleared up already, such as where Xatres' head is at given Gheb was town, yet he seemed to ignore that completely and talk more about mechanics again.

 

[Xatres]

Posting from phone.

You mean I have to publicly announce I'm rethinking my reads after my #1 scumpick flips town? Shouldn't that be a given?

 

[#HBC | J]

#HBC | J you say there were players calling Spak obv town and players connecting you with Gheb yesterday. Can you give me names for those?

Alright, now I'm out. I'll be back after work.

Off the top of my head, I know for a fact that Gheb was saying we should not lynch Sparky. Then for the connecting, I believe that was Dastrn and RR.

To be fair J, you were the only one who mentioned me most of the time, but that's aside the point - why are you so inclined to believe Maven is real suddenly? You were hard-pressed on both and I don't know why scum fakeclaiming is not out of the realm of possibility, given we don't know what modifications the mafia have made in the first place. What strikes me more is that Maven is not considering you clear either.

The entire post was made under the assumption of trusting the PRs based on knowledge we have currently in the thread. You make a great point though is the bolded. Maven is more ready to doubt his own tracking result from the mod and say that the possibility of ninja is still present when we have no evidence to suggest as such and we don't know if we are out of PRs. Hell, Maven has been calling me lurking and not commenting on things since Pg. 1 of this game so I know he isn't really looking at my posts nor is he really paying attention. That is where I feel he is more likely scum because with everyone in this game he seems to be looking at the negative aspect of players. If you look at his posts during just before Gheb/My hammer, he said "Wow, J's post kicked me in the balls, I'm okay with Gheb now." then Ryu slaps a poor case against me regarding my Ryker push and Maven comes back "Wow RR! Great post, let's wagon snap to that since you made a case!" and it's just poor play.

However, Corps, Maven has called me scum in every game we have played together since my return in Revival. He doesn't necessarily know how to read me, but he always calls me scum for a different reason each time. It makes his slot harder for me to read because there is this wall between us constantly that he builds up.

I would like toDay to be more focused on staying on track and remaining clear headed and logical. At the moment, besides my distaste for his slot, I would lean on believing that he is Tracker. Does it mean I trust him to help me find scum?

However, if he was lying about being a tracker. He could have just come into thread and say "J was seen visiting RR." and boom endgame for scum. Occam's Razor, Maven's off toDay's table for me.

 

[#HBC | J]

Posting from phone.

You mean I have to publicly announce I'm rethinking my reads after my #1 scumpick flips town? Shouldn't that be a given?

I mean you should let us know where your head is at. You had time to make a huge mechanics post, but why nothing about Gheb since it seems your game should be flipped on it's head at this juncutre.

Talk to me about Dastrn, you've been saying he is super obv-town this whole game. I want actual reasons instead of "meta" and "cuz I know him".

 

[Corps phoenix]

Posting from phone.

You mean I have to publicly announce I'm rethinking my reads after my #1 scumpick flips town? Shouldn't that be a given?

No, but it would be nice if you told us what you think in light of your #1 scumpick flipping town.

 

[Xatres]

I mean you should let us know where your head is at. You had time to make a huge mechanics post, but why nothing about Gheb since it seems your game should be flipped on it's head at this juncutre.

Talk to me about Dastrn, you've been saying he is super obv-town this whole game. I want actual reasons instead of "meta" and "cuz I know him".

My reason for the mechanics post was that i didn't want us wasting time on a line of thinking the obviously wasn't in line with the actual setup.

I'll give you full reads tonight when I am at a computer.

 

[Maven89]

I'm in between classes, so I can get to this in detail later, but something I want to clear up

However, Corps, Maven has called me scum in every game we have played together since my return in Revival. He doesn't necessarily know how to read me, but he always calls me scum for a different reason each time

You've been scum almost every time we played. I can think of one game you weren't scum, and I got lynched Day 1 on it. So yes, I call you scum a lot. You've been scum a lot. I already mentioned in the Pms I sent to the mod that I'm not sure I even know what you do when you're town.

 

[Maven89]

After spending some time thinking about this, I realize you guys are right. I'm playing very badly, I'm not putting in effort, and I'm largely yelling at other people for not making it easier for me. My Soup attack was way out of line and ridiculous considering my own lack of effort into playing the game.

But to go back to my post above, with J: in the end you are still right, I don't know how to read you. Every time we've played any length together, you've been scum, and from reading your posts in the Salt Factor I know you play in a way that's anathema to me, making it harder to separate the scumminess from just the way you play.

I roleclaimed on the spot because it's mylo, I wanted all my information out there to help people decide, and I knew I was looking poorly, the two main people I pushed were Gheb and Dastrn, one whose confirmed town and the other I currently town read, and I kept waffling back and forth between J and Gheb at the end of the day phase. Both Soup and J had me as their main scum read ending Day 2, so I felt an automatic rolelcaim was valid.

I assumed there was a ninja because that seemed the most powerful role to me, and I guessed the mafia would snag it.But now that I'm looking back at the game, it only counters a single PR that might not even have been in the game. So there's not any reason to automatically assume a ninja.

 

[Corps phoenix]

As long as you town-read me you can continue to think I'm soup all you want .

 

[Corps phoenix]

I do like your humility in that post though. You could very well beat us across the head with your tracker claim and assert your dominance here and even like J said possibly just claim guilty on someone and call it a day, given that you're without a counter-claim. I think that I must have some humility too and say that I am probably wrong on you also, but that is the biggest problem I face right now. My only secondary right now is Xatres because oddly enough (and I promise J does not sit next to me while I make these posts) his post about RR simply is just gushing townie for all the really wrong and dumb reasons. My reads other than that haven't been altered too much, besides maybe the grey area that is Spak and Dastrn for me, but gun to my head I would definitely lean Spak over Dastrn in terms of scum.

 

[Corps phoenix]

his post about RR simply is just gushing townie for all the really wrong and dumb reasons.

<- Is about TSYK.

 

[#HBC | J]

Honestly, I need to see posts from Sparky, Xatres, Dastrn, and TSYK for me to continue forward.

Sparky/Xatres>Dastrn/TSYK in terms of where I am looking to lynch.

I could honestly see a scum-team of one of the brothers plus one of Sparky/TSYK. Then we still have traitor or recruited traitor which I would need to think more in detail about after we get a flip.

 

[Spak]

Holy mother of walls. OK, I'm reading up.

 

[Spak]

It has nothing to do with their interactions, it is just how I am looking at the game and it makes sense to me that they would not be on a scum-team.

Could you please clarify why you think that Dastrn and Xastres aren't a scumteam if "it has nothing to do with their interactions?" That seems like a bit of an odd statement, since people taking this statement as truth (Corps already said he liked the analysis) would assure a a hypothetical Dastrn/Xatres/J scumteam the win.

no one has pointed out a reason as to why TSYK is scum

Very well then, he leaves the thread the instant he gets the smallest amount of pressure and just leaves for a few days. I sometimes see him in-thread after asking for clarification on something, but then he just ducks out again and I don't get an answer until halfway through the phase. His play hasn't shown anything town-related, you've been giving him a free pass the entire game, and you've never had him as a scum suspect. He's had the lowest post count all game, and for all we know he could be coasting with the occasional prod-dodge derp. I'm not sure if he's scum, I'm not sure if he's town, he's a complete shot in the dark and I'm starting to think we should've PL'd him D1. Near the end of D2 his slot sounded near-suicidal, to the point where I'm starting to think he was trying to oversell him being OK with death.

I would like to point to his first post of toDay not understanding the Janitor/Traitor stuff as a point in his direction as a town-slip.

That's not a tell of either alignment. Are you giving Dastrn a free town read for not knowing how the Janitor works, too? You're either trying to defend a scummate or playing tricks on yourself to justify an unjustifiable strong town read.

If we start from D1, we have his odd response to Gheb's case vs. Kanty and then the accidental hammer of him as well. Then come into D2, he never really made an impact and continued to sit on his Gheb scum-read that he has had for quite some time.

D1 I was playing devil's advocate (I woulda thought you got that from the 5 times I've had to bring it up) because nobody was bothering to consider the possibility of town!Kantrip, and D2 I had Gheb as a town read until Xastrn's case. I even had an entire town!Gheb post made up, but Xastrn countered pretty much all of my points before I posted the mini-wall so I decided on scum!Gheb. I still have the case on a word doc if you want to see it, but I don't really see any point in posting it anymore.

Nothing of his play has lead me in the direction that he could be town

I'm starting to think the same thing about you.

Another point I would like to bring up against EVERY player in the game is that no one is looking for scum-teams. They are all just lynching people to lynch people and not because they feel that there is a solid connection between them. Hell, yesterDay people were saying that Gheb/Myself were connected or Gheb and someone were, yet when we come into toDay, no one is changing their minds when the fact is they were wrong. That is something I challenge people to do is look for the pairings.

OK then, I think that you and TSYK are a team. You've been protecting him at every chance you get, you've written everything off as a noobish mistake, then put him as a strong town lean to top it off. He's never interacted with you directly and never even mentions you until he voted you last Sunday (I assume that's you telling him to get a bus, since you were sure you would be dead and posted a long "woe is me" speech even after Gheb was hammered), which leads me to believe that he's attempting to distance himself from you, but also doesn't know that completely ignoring the scummate is almost as bad as buddying with him.

FoS: J/TSYK

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Omw home. Haven't read the post, but at first blush, that FoS is disgusting, IMO.

 

[Spak]

Also, #HBC | J could you please go into detail on why you think Ryu's case was bad? I read it when I woke up the next morning and found it very interesting. Your vote was rarely where you said you thought the most likely scum suspect was; why is that?

 

[Dastrn]

I wish I could post and give you guys confident reads and stuff, but I'm a bit shell shocked by the gheb flip. I sat at my computer going back and forth on him or J or him or J for a while that night, while RR and Xatres basically each took one side, but ultimately, it feel into my lap to decide, and they agreed to vote as a block to ensure we'd get a lynch one way or another.

I felt at that time like I likely had 1 scum between the pair of them. Now that we were wrong about Gheb (xatres' choice) and RR is dead (who was targeting J), it leaves me thinking about xatres the most. I've been null reading him this whole game. On the one hand, his play seems consistent with the town play I've seen out of him. On the other hand, I am failing to remember playing against him, so I'm not even confident I would know his scum style if I saw it.
He's on my watch list right now.

Spak is still interesting. But my muddy head isn't reminding me why. I'll have to reread day 2 to remember what it was I had going in my head about him. I know that at one critical point, I leaned back away from him and refocused on Gheb. While I feel I was correct for believing Ryker at the time, and I still feel good about joining with Maven in a general sense, I think that this led me away from Spak and onto Gheb, which was clearly wrong in at least the Gheb aspect...

I wouldn't at all be surprised if TSYK was scum. But he just seems so innocent and ignorant and I would expect even a new scum player to come across a bit more nefarious. I dunno. Maybe I cheer for the underdog too much?

Corps - null. I hate having so many null reads but I just can't get a bead on this guy. If I had to guess, I'd lean him slightly towards scum, but I'll admit it's probably not anything remotely concrete.

J - what do I even say? I flip flop on J as often as the clock ticks. Maybe I'm out of my depth with a couple of the most experience players now. Maybe it's just a playstyle and attitude thing that turns me off enough that I can't see past it. I don't know. I seem to have gotten over it just fine with Maven even though he irked me but I still can't shake that feeling with J.

If it wasn't for that one damned post he made at L-1, he'd be dead.

Without a reread in my mind, my best guess would be J/Xatres/and maybe TSYK?

Dunno. That feels about as concrete as jello.

 

[ThatSmasherYouKnow]

All right, I'm sorry for the REALLY late response, but I just want to clear something up. There's a conversation that happened between me and J, and I'm really disappointed that none of you have pushed this as scum points for me.

At this point, I'm guessing that RR was the traitor, and so the mafia killed him. It seems very cryptic in the post announcing that he's dead with Laundry saying:

"Member of a street gang," he said. "Drank too much and couldn't pay his tab."

Red Ryu, ????, has been killed!

At this point, I'm curious if the part about a street gang is just about asthetics or if it is implying something more.

^if you think TSYK is scum, I challenge you to tell me how that's not a town-tell.

This conversation seems very staged, and if I hadn't been a participant in it, I would've pushed it as scum, but seeing as I was participating in it, and I KNOW that I'm town, I didn't, if that made any sense whatsoever. At this point, I'm disappointed with my fellow townies, and you guys need to get your head in the game. And, since everyone's doing it, I know this is probably gonna get me nightkilled, but I feel like putting my claim out there will help out the town. I'm a vanilla townie, and, I hope that this claim will help you guys get your reads in order. Even though now, you'll probably add even more scum points because I claimed town and there are 2 other people who already claimed, and you'll add that up, get 3, there's 3 people in the mafia and lynch us. SO um. Bye. For now. Ask me questions or something.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I wish I could post and give you guys confident reads and stuff, but I'm a bit shell shocked by the gheb flip. I sat at my computer going back and forth on him or J or him or J for a while that night, while RR and Xatres basically each took one side, but ultimately, it feel into my lap to decide, and they agreed to vote as a block to ensure we'd get a lynch one way or another.

I felt at that time like I likely had 1 scum between the pair of them. Now that we were wrong about Gheb (xatres' choice) and RR is dead (who was targeting J), it leaves me thinking about xatres the most. I've been null reading him this whole game. On the one hand, his play seems consistent with the town play I've seen out of him. On the other hand, I am failing to remember playing against him, so I'm not even confident I would know his scum style if I saw it.
He's on my watch list right now.

Spak is still interesting. But my muddy head isn't reminding me why. I'll have to reread day 2 to remember what it was I had going in my head about him. I know that at one critical point, I leaned back away from him and refocused on Gheb. While I feel I was correct for believing Ryker at the time, and I still feel good about joining with Maven in a general sense, I think that this led me away from Spak and onto Gheb, which was clearly wrong in at least the Gheb aspect...

I wouldn't at all be surprised if TSYK was scum. But he just seems so innocent and ignorant and I would expect even a new scum player to come across a bit more nefarious. I dunno. Maybe I cheer for the underdog too much?

Corps - null. I hate having so many null reads but I just can't get a bead on this guy. If I had to guess, I'd lean him slightly towards scum, but I'll admit it's probably not anything remotely concrete.

J - what do I even say? I flip flop on J as often as the clock ticks. Maybe I'm out of my depth with a couple of the most experience players now. Maybe it's just a playstyle and attitude thing that turns me off enough that I can't see past it. I don't know. I seem to have gotten over it just fine with Maven even though he irked me but I still can't shake that feeling with J.

If it wasn't for that one damned post he made at L-1, he'd be dead.

Without a reread in my mind, my best guess would be J/Xatres/and maybe TSYK?

Dunno. That feels about as concrete as jello.

Do me a favor and talk to me about Spak?

I've been pulled into watching anime with the mod. I'll post more tonight.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

My general thoughts atm

Spak->J->Xatres->Corps->TSYK->Dastrn->Maven

Those are stand alone and not well fleshed out. I'll have a large post finished tonight or early this morning.

 

[Maven89]

Do me a favor and talk to me about Spak?

I've been pulled into watching anime with the mod. I'll post more tonight.

Get him to tell you who scum are!

I have an algebra test tomorrow, I won't be able to devote enough time to this game tonight.

I will re-read, and I wasn't going to talk until I did so, but since that won't be tongiht I'll mention this about Spak:

When we were attempting to lynch Gheb, Spak immediately jumped in to argue against it being SvT, because he insisted Gheb was town and he wasn't scum, but then didn't do anything to defend him.

This is the second time Spak has started to defend the town lynch but backed down. More then that, I found his sudden fear of being painted scum with townGheb to be really off and self serving, I didn't believe there was enough reason to townreadGheb, no one was defending him, not even Gheb, and when Spak was given an opportunity to, he turned it down. I know I accused Dastrn of the exact same thing Day 1, but I found it suspicious then, and I still find that line of action to be suspicious. Until I re-read, that's the biggest thing on my mind still, and it's what I'm going to look for. Remember that doing blatantly scummy actions are not in the scum's best interest, his Kantrip defense is hollow if he wasn't even opposed to lynching Kantrip in the first place.

I realize this is once again asking other people to do my work, but I really do have RL issues to deal with today and I promise I'll do my own analysis on this and other issues tomorrow when I have time. If someone else finds this interesting though, don't wait up for me.

 

[Spak]

When we were attempting to lynch Gheb, Spak immediately jumped in to argue against it being SvT, because he insisted Gheb was town and he wasn't scum, but then didn't do anything to defend him.

Screw it, I'll post my case I made. I was about to post this:

Spoiler

He has been pretty calm and collected under pressure, he's answered everything in a timely manner (taking his time zone into account), I can see his thought process clearly through his play, he is trying to advance town's interests (although his ideas on how to do so are slightly different than everyone else's), and he's always been willing to put his opinions out there (even if it stirs up the waters). I went back through everything that he's posted and didn't find fault with him.

He willingly accepted being a huge factor in Kantrip's lynch (I think scum might have tried to put at least part of it on Dastrn's head because of #358 and the fact most of it was actually summarization of the push at that point in time) and everyone seems to have just turned him into a scapegoat for the death of a townie PR. Sure he might have been presenting the case with a scum!Kantrip mindset, but that's to be expected if someone was trying to make a case against another player.

The next huge thing that people seem to be up-in-arms about is the L-1 situation. At first I thought that Gheb intentionally put him at L-1, but then I remembered the time difference. It was about 11:00 there and Gheb forgot the deadline was extended, so the vote made sense considering it was probably going to be one of the last posts from him in the phase. You could interpret it as being opportunistic if you look at it with scum!Gheb eyes, but I think it was a genuine mistake.

The only other argument I've seen for Gheb's lynch is that it would give us "information". While I do think that a Gheb lynch would give valuable info, an info lynch with no other reasoning is possibly one of the worst reasons to lynch someone in a game of Mafia and I'm pretty sure everyone already knows why.

but then I looked at Xatres' case and pretty much everything I said was countered, and he was correct when I went back and fact-checked the discrepant info.

This is the second time Spak has started to defend the town lynch but backed down. More then that, I found his sudden fear of being painted scum with townGheb to be really off and self serving

That's because at the point in time that I was arguing against me and Gheb being TvS (which I still don't see a reason for) I still had a town read of Gheb. I was formulating the above defense, but Xatres posted his wall first.

Remember that doing blatantly scummy actions are not in the scum's best interest, his Kantrip defense is hollow if he wasn't even opposed to lynching Kantrip in the first place.

I'll give you a hint about what is wrong with this accusation:

Spoiler

Your reason is "I dislike Spak's response to my wagon." I played devil's advocate, responding to literally one person on your wagon, and you're trying to lynch me for this. Seems a bit desperate to me.

If you look back at my reads, he was a scum lean at the end and throughout the latter half of the day. I wasn't trying to defend him, but I was playing devil's advocate to give an alternative perspective.

I was asked for a read from Slick, analyzed the Dastrn interaction (giving Kantrip a null/town lean if I remember correctly) and then Gheb posted his wall on Kantrip. I went to look at Gheb's wall, played devil's advocate because Gheb was addressing literally everything from a scum!Kantrip perspective, and then I said that after fully analyzing the situation, I said that Kantrip was a weak scum lean. I never had a super strong read on Kantrip and he was weak scum the entire time after the wall on Gheb's post.

I agree. This will be crazy suspicious if you aren't jailed or dead by D3.

1. For the love of all that is good and holy, I wasn't trying to defend Kantrip.
2. If I were trying to get credit for a flip, why would I vote for him?
3. You are saying that I would have benefited from a town!Kantrip flip, and you want me dead because of it. If Kantrip were scum, however, you would be saying that I was trying to defend my scummate and you would want me dead because of it. You can turn anything into a reason if you look at it with a scum mentality.

What do you mean by "change again?" It's the same thing I said earlier (#479).

Vote: @The Man From Delamar until you come in here and actually give your opinions on the game at hand. I find it a bit sketchy that you are conveniently here for the flip after providing nothing all phase even though you were back from V/LA for over a day.

Could you please clarify why you think that Dastrn and Xastres aren't a scumteam if "it has nothing to do with their interactions?" That seems like a bit of an odd statement, since people taking this statement as truth (Corps already said he liked the analysis) would assure a a hypothetical Dastrn/Xatres/J scumteam the win.

Very well then, he leaves the thread the instant he gets the smallest amount of pressure and just leaves for a few days. I sometimes see him in-thread after asking for clarification on something, but then he just ducks out again and I don't get an answer until halfway through the phase. His play hasn't shown anything town-related, you've been giving him a free pass the entire game, and you've never had him as a scum suspect. He's had the lowest post count all game, and for all we know he could be coasting with the occasional prod-dodge derp. I'm not sure if he's scum, I'm not sure if he's town, he's a complete shot in the dark and I'm starting to think we should've PL'd him D1. Near the end of D2 his slot sounded near-suicidal, to the point where I'm starting to think he was trying to oversell him being OK with death.

That's not a tell of either alignment. Are you giving Dastrn a free town read for not knowing how the Janitor works, too? You're either trying to defend a scummate or playing tricks on yourself to justify an unjustifiable strong town read.

D1 I was playing devil's advocate (I woulda thought you got that from the 5 times I've had to bring it up) because nobody was bothering to consider the possibility of town!Kantrip, and D2 I had Gheb as a town read until Xastrn's case. I even had an entire town!Gheb post made up, but Xastrn countered pretty much all of my points before I posted the mini-wall so I decided on scum!Gheb. I still have the case on a word doc if you want to see it, but I don't really see any point in posting it anymore.

I'm starting to think the same thing about you.

OK then, I think that you and TSYK are a team. You've been protecting him at every chance you get, you've written everything off as a noobish mistake, then put him as a strong town lean to top it off. He's never interacted with you directly and never even mentions you until he voted you last Sunday (I assume that's you telling him to get a bus, since you were sure you would be dead and posted a long "woe is me" speech even after Gheb was hammered), which leads me to believe that he's attempting to distance himself from you, but also doesn't know that completely ignoring the scummate is almost as bad as buddying with him.

FoS: J/TSYK

First time was a legitimate question about what my intents were. Second time was a tad annoying that the first time wasn't read, but that's understandable. Third time I got a bit peeved that I had to clarify I was posting for the intent of playing devil's advocate. Fourth time was fairly upsetting. You're the fifth time, and I'm genuinely frustrated that you missed the four other times this game that I've had to spend my time to explain how I wasn't defending Kantrip. I'm fine with explaining something, I'm not fine with having to explain it 5 different times.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Fwiw, I would have included a votecount but at this point, no one has laid one. With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.