Tournament Mode [1.1.0] Community Patch Notes

[Dantarion]

Warning to everyone linking to my stuff!

To make sure only the most current, accurate data is available, I have redirected a ton of stuff to mastercore v3, which is what I am calling the current dumps of info I have made based on 1.1.0 going back to the base version, using only the WiiU files.

I am updating things to make them more readable, and filling in unknowns as I go. Old links should work and redirect to the latest version of the same content for the 1.1.0 stuff, but the mastercore2 links go straight to the mastercore3 homepage now.

Ill make a thread later to gather feedback from you guys.

Thanks for the help deciphering my raw data, I really appreciate it, I put in this work for you guys, the players willing to learn about how the game works internally.
http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/
http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/#diffs
http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/#dumps

You can link like this now for best results in the future

 

[RayNoire]

So I heard something a few pages back about a change to Mewtwo's Side-B? Can anyone confirm what that is?

 

[theyellowflash26]

I'm guessing they must be custom special damages of the Elthunder 2 and 3?
Do you know what was 11% and 5% before?

Yeah it looks like thats what it is. The 11% was for Thunder+. Arcthunder+ does 12/13% now. Although I'm not sure what the 5% is? Maybe Speed Elthunder? It's doin 6% for me in training.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So I see that there is a change to Mii Gunner's Neutral B 3. The grenades no longer explode when coming into contact with hitboxes. They now disappear like any other projectile when its hit out of the air.

G&W has received numerous changes. Bair and Nair have definitely been buffed and I think fsmash, Jab 1 and uair have been tweaked as well. I just have no way to prove it atm and nobody seems to be interested in verifying/falsifying these claims so it's all up in the air.

He's definitely not unchanged though.

It would help if you provided any information as to how those moves have changed besides just saying "it's buffed". That tells us nothing.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've already stated how bair and nair were buffed. Bair has those "synch frames" where landing lag and hitlag overlap. The hitboxes of nair have different knockback now that send the opponent "into" the other hitboxes of nair.

I don't know how Jab 1 and uair were altered though. I mentioned them because they are included in the data dump but in my testings I couldn't see a difference to the previous iterations of these moves. Apparently dtilt is also different but again, it seems to be the same as in the previous patch so the changes on these moves are probably very minor.

 

[redblade]

(This might get lost in all the commotion, but it's worth the try.)

Question: Why can't datamining ascertain ending lag/cooldown values? (And as an extension to that question: what values important to competitive smash can't datamining trivially extract at this point?)

At least from what I've heard, today's Smash Bros datamining is unable to give us clear answers as to moves' ending lag times. Logically speaking, this shouldn't be the case, as one can't just experience a change in end lag (or anything for that matter) without some values or some functions (or both) being changed somewhere.

(Admittedly, I know very little about Smash datamining, but the ECE major in me is looking at this like a problem to be solved.)

 

[Linkshot]

(This might get lost in all the commotion, but it's worth the try.)

Question: Why can't datamining ascertain ending lag/cooldown values? (And as an extension to that question: what values important to competitive smash can't datamining trivially extract at this point?)

At least from what I've heard, today's Smash Bros datamining is unable to give us clear answers as to moves' ending lag times. Logically speaking, this shouldn't be the case, as one can't just experience a change in end lag (or anything for that matter) without some values or some functions (or both) being changed somewhere.

(Admittedly, I know very little about Smash datamining, but the ECE major in me is looking at this like a problem to be solved.)

We can't quickly datamine the length of an animation. Lemme break down how a special works.

You start with an Action. The Action then runs a script that checks variables and passes through multiple SubActions. The datamining grabs values for specific SubActions. However, A large chunk of Actions use "When Animation Ends" to pass from one SubAction to the next, instead of a concrete frame value. To find overall IASA frames, we have to take the value in the last SubAction and then add how long the animation is, which is something mining fighter files doesn't grab.

I suppose the next question is "why can't we mine animation data?", to which I can guess that it's because Specials don't have a universally consistent naming scheme. "SpecialN" is usually a good start for Neutral Bs, but then you get into character-specific stuff like "SpecialNHold" or "SpecialNFireHi".

 

[Dogmaster]

Can someone confirm the aerial upb shieldbreaker changes to link, perhaps that is what changed on the datadump.

Also, we never knew what changed to his grab and pivot grab?

 

[Linkshot]

Can someone confirm the aerial upb shieldbreaker changes to link, perhaps that is what changed on the datadump.

Also, we never knew what changed to his grab and pivot grab?

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/diff-128-144/link.html

Looks like some startup thing happens a frame sooner and there's an extra grabbox on Dash/Pivot Grabs

Changes to Spin Attack seem to solely be positioning of hitboxes and possibly graphics to match it.

EDIT: Palutena stuff

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/diff-128-144/palutena.html
http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_palutena.bin.txt

After looking at the changelist at the top and noticing it didn't match up with the parameters, I dug into it more. Here's the full rundown:

* Palutena's grabs are all sped up a fair amount
* To compensate, their IASA was pushed back
* Overall, the moves execute faster and end slightly sooner than before

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Can someone do some testing on Samus? I don't see anything being worked on with her Character board and I feel like she feels a bit different overall, it may have something to do with ZAir, Missle, I'm not sure.

EDIT: I figured it out, I think they increased the landing lag on Fair. Confirmation needed. Because if they did and I'm not imagining things I'm going to be really concerned

ur imagining it shes unchaneged in any manor

 

[Jamesjanes]

Little Macs up special falls significantly faster, A buff in my opinion your not in the air for as long.

 

[Methacrylate]

@ Shaya there has been a change to Pikachu which has been known for a few days by the Pika board which has not made your list yet. Here is the post to first confirm it: http://smashboards.com/threads/ver-1-1-0-patch-thread.412172/#post-19791088

Several Pikachu mains have tested and can confirm that the thunder wave infinite of neutral custom 2 has been removed.

 

[Ffamran]

I've already stated how bair and nair were buffed. Bair has those "synch frames" where landing lag and hitlag overlap. The hitboxes of nair have different knockback now that send the opponent "into" the other hitboxes of nair.

You just brought up a curious thought now... Falco's Dair is rarely used, so I don't know if this was possible pre-patch 1.1.0 or since launch, but whatever the case, this means that if Falco "properly" connects all his aerials, he will never have to deal with significant landing lag.

Edit: Whoops, forgot to link what I was talking about.

Can anyone tell me what the hell is going on here?

Here's a proof of Falco's Meteor acting late enough to auto-cancel ...It's weird and pointless lol.

Edit: I think he hit with the last frame of Fair's spike hitbox which happens at frame 19, but at the same time, the late hit at frame 20, lasts until frame 30. Falco's Dair also auto-cancels before frame 4 and after frame 38. The full animation lasts until frame 51, so he can't act until frame 52. Hmm... I wonder if hit lag is prolonging his air time and allowing it to "go through" the full animation. This also apparently happens with his Fair where if he connects the entire move and lands, he won't suffer landing lag.

 

[JCOnyx]

@ Shaya there has been a change to Pikachu which has been known for a few days by the Pika board which has not made your list yet. Here is the post to first confirm it: http://smashboards.com/threads/ver-1-1-0-patch-thread.412172/#post-19791088

Several Pikachu mains have tested and can confirm that the thunder wave infinite of neutral custom 2 has been removed.

Yeah, I already brought it up back on like page 2 but it still hasn't been documented in the OP. It's kinda a big change and I thought it would have been added a lot earlier in this threads lifespan. They'll get to it eventually.

 

[Linkshot]

Little Macs up special falls significantly faster, A buff in my opinion your not in the air for as long.

Changed fighter_param_vl_littlemac.bin[12][2] from 1.79999995232 to 1.89999997616 <- Rising Uppercut SpecialFall speed?
Changed fighter_param_vl_littlemac.bin[12][7] from 3.09999990463 to 3.40000009537 <- Rising Smash SpecialFall speed?
Changed fighter_param_vl_littlemac.bin[12][79] from 3.0 to 3.09999990463 <- Giga Mac Rising Uppercut SpecialFall speed?

 

[Vipermoon]

I've already stated how bair and nair were buffed. Bair has those "synch frames" where landing lag and hitlag overlap. The hitboxes of nair have different knockback now that send the opponent "into" the other hitboxes of nair.

I don't know how Jab 1 and uair were altered though. I mentioned them because they are included in the data dump but in my testings I couldn't see a difference to the previous iterations of these moves. Apparently dtilt is also different but again, it seems to be the same as in the previous patch so the changes on these moves are probably very minor.

Bair had hitlag landing in every version of the game. It was always the nature of the move.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bair had hitlag landing in every version of the game. It was always the nature of the move.

Hmmm, G&W boards have claimed that it's a new feature and I've never encountered it before.

Also bair is listed as a move that has been changed in Dantarion's data dump. Can you read it? Something has to be different.

 

[Johnny Heart Gold]

G&W has received numerous changes. Bair and Nair have definitely been buffed and I think fsmash, Jab 1 and uair have been tweaked as well. I just have no way to prove it atm and nobody seems to be interested in verifying/falsifying these claims so it's all up in the air.

He's definitely not unchanged though.

Dude the only reason why Im looking the whole please is to know g&w had changes!!! he is the only character that need a serious boost, he only can kill on the edges, or with freaking luck with the hammer, dude no way he is suppossed to be a glass cannon not a edge or lucky figther!! and rage in bowser or heavy characters screw him very awful!!

 

[Fujiwara]

Dude the only reason why Im looking the whole please is to know g&w had changes!!! he is the only character that need a serious boost, he only can kill on the edges, or with freaking luck with the hammer, dude no way he is suppossed to be a glass cannon not a edge or lucky figther!! and rage in bowser or heavy characters screw him very awful!!

I wouldn't call him broken but there're other characters out there who needs to be buffed more than G&W.

 

[Jamesjanes]

Dude the only reason why Im looking the whole please is to know g&w had changes!!! he is the only character that need a serious boost, he only can kill on the edges, or with freaking luck with the hammer, dude no way he is suppossed to be a glass cannon not a edge or lucky figther!! and rage in bowser or heavy characters screw him very awful!!

Down smash and up smash both kill reliably. not to mention invincibility on upsmash

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dude the only reason why Im looking the whole please is to know g&w had changes!!! he is the only character that need a serious boost, he only can kill on the edges, or with freaking luck with the hammer, dude no way he is suppossed to be a glass cannon not a edge or lucky figther!! and rage in bowser or heavy characters screw him very awful!!

Chill dude, there's no confirmation on anything yet.

According to Dantarion's data there should be a lot of changes except that nobody seems to be interested in looking into them. I'd do it but I can't read hex and I'm not confident in my testings anymore :/

 

[Luigi player]

How that NAir doesn't hit is beyond my comprehension. Effect coming out before hitbox or just an horrible hitbox? Or maybe he landed 1 frame before frame 8? Looking at the data, it's hard to tell why the first hit wouldn't hit..

If you land on the frame the hitbox would come out you don't get the hitbox. Really annoying. With Wario you can uair and land and you clearly see that he claps and hear the sound effect, but it doesn't have a hitbox... makes me sad.

 

[Vipermoon]

You just brought up a curious thought now... Falco's Dair is rarely used, so I don't know if this was possible pre-patch 1.1.0 or since launch, but whatever the case, this means that if Falco "properly" connects all his aerials, he will never have to deal with significant landing lag.

Edit: Whoops, forgot to link what I was talking about.

It's not that difficult to see what's happening here. The answer is nothing. This has nothing to do with hitlag or meteors or whatever.

The following is 1.0.4 so the meteor lasts 1 frame longer than this I believe, still it's good for showing what's happening:

Dair
Frame 16-18: 13% 10b/80g (KO@ 267%) 285° 2.0-Hitlag
Frame 19-30: 8% 20b/90g (KO@ 243%) 361°
Max Damage: 13%
Enables transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 4
Cancels transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 38

You simply hit someone on frame 30 (or late 20s probably still works), don't fast fall, and as you can see...it autocancels on frame 38. Absolutely nothing special going on here. It's like how Sheik Fairs you and quickly lands with no lag after the frame 11 autocancel (something I can't believe they didn't nerf).

EDIT: Just noticed the video had it doing 13%. It should've been 8% so now I'm confused.

Hmmm, G&W boards have claimed that it's a new feature and I've never encountered it before.

Also bair is listed as a move that has been changed in Dantarion's data dump. Can you read it? Something has to be different.

I checked it out and I have no idea what changing some 1x000085 to 1x000086 or whatever does. It doesn't seem important and it obviously isn't noticeable.

But I know it always did the hitlag landing because it always had a landing hitbox. Any aerial with a landing hitbox (Kirby, Fox, Falco, Mario, many many more) on their aerials automatically hitlag land ("frame cancel") if they connect with hurtboxes. The more hitlag the landing hitbox has the better the reduction.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's not that difficult to see what's happening here. The answer is nothing. This has nothing to do with hitlag or meteors or whatever.

This is 1.0.4 so the meteor lasts 1 frame longer than this I believe, still it's good for showing what's happening.

Dair
Frame 16-18: 13% 10b/80g (KO@ 267%) 285° 2.0-Hitlag
Frame 19-30: 8% 20b/90g (KO@ 243%) 361°
Max Damage: 13%
Enables transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 4
Cancels transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 38

You simply hit someone on frame 30 (or late 20s probably still works), don't fast fall, and as you can see...it autocancels on frame 38. Absolutely nothing special going on here. It's like how Sheik Fairs you and quickly lands with no lag after the frame 11 autocancel (something I can't believe they didn't nerf).

The late hitbox would send out and doesn't have huge amounts of hitlag. The curious thing is that it's clearly hitting with the meteor hitbox despite being a very late hit (it deals 13% in the video, too).

 

[Ffamran]

It's not that difficult to see what's happening here. The answer is nothing. This has nothing to do with hitlag or meteors or whatever.

This is 1.0.4 so the meteor lasts 1 frame longer than this I believe, still it's good for showing what's happening.

Dair
Frame 16-18: 13% 10b/80g (KO@ 267%) 285° 2.0-Hitlag
Frame 19-30: 8% 20b/90g (KO@ 243%) 361°
Max Damage: 13%
Enables transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 4
Cancels transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 38

You simply hit someone on frame 30 (or late 20s probably still works), don't fast fall, and as you can see...it autocancels on frame 38. Absolutely nothing special going on here. It's like how Sheik Fairs you and quickly lands with no lag after the frame 11 autocancel (something I can't believe they didn't nerf).

He's hitting with the frames 16-19 hitbox, though, since it's doing 13% and not 8%. 50% to 63% isn't a 8% difference. Also, since patch 1.0.8, Falco sends grounded people up instead of spiking them now.

Edit: 'd.

 

[Vipermoon]

The late hitbox would send out and doesn't have huge amounts of hitlag. The curious thing is that it's clearly hitting with the meteor hitbox despite being a very late hit (it deals 13% in the video, too).

I didn't notice that. It looked like the weak hit to me. So unless this Falco has equipment that really shouldn't have dealt 13%. It should have been 8.

But autocancel thing definitely made sense.

 

[Ffamran]

Even PaperMic, the player who did that doesn't even know why it worked. I see you lurking in the patch thread, Vipemoon64.

Well, I know it worked that way last patch, but I have know idea why it does this.
It's pretty hard to reproduce too (At least for me). You can see in the video that I didn't expect to get it first try.

Surprisingly, Falco's Dair remains a stupid move even though it's 11 frames slower in Smash 4 than in previous games. The theory of hit lag prolonging his air time might be plausible, but at the same time, you can do that on shield and Falco will still suffer landing lag. Unless there was a stealth change that even Dantarion didn't catch or somehow Falco's Dair hitboxes overlap at frame 20 or something else that's stupid, there's not you can say why Falco can do this. Even with equipment, I'm pretty sure Falco's Dair landing lag would be like his equipment-less Nair, Uair, and Bair landing lag.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This may be completely off-base, but I remember someone saying that Ganondorf F-Air seemed significantly safer on shield, more so than a 1% damage increase seems like it would do. Ganondorf F-Air has a 1.1x hitlag multiplier, though no landing lag changes were recorded for Ganondorf F-Air, to my knowledge.

I wonder if something's going on with hitlag modifiers that is unique to 1.10.

 

[Lavani]

Hitlag wouldn't be affecting autocancels, it certainly isn't making any difference as to when Zelda can act after connecting sweetspot sh fair and she always gets landing lag.

 

[Vipermoon]

Even PaperMic, the player who did that doesn't even know why it worked. I see you lurking in the patch thread, Vipemoon64.

Surprisingly, Falco's Dair remains a stupid move even though it's 11 frames slower in Smash 4 than in previous games. The theory of hit lag prolonging his air time might be plausible, but at the same time, you can do that on shield and Falco will still suffer landing lag. Unless there was a stealth change that even Dantarion didn't catch it somehow Falco's Dair hitboxes overlap at frame 20 or something else that's stupid, there's not you can say why Falco can do this. Even with equipment, I'm pretty sure Falco's Dair landing lag would be like his equipment-less Nair, Uair, and Bair landing lag.

Well yeah I was making sure you edited your post since you quoted me with the wrong answer.

But yeah, didn't pay attention to the % it dealt. Idk what is going on there. And by equipment I meant using it to increase the 8% hitbox to 13% but obvious that isn't what happened.

 

[Methacrylate]

EDIT: Palutena stuff

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/diff-128-144/palutena.html
http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_palutena.bin.txt

After looking at the change list at the top and noticing it didn't match up with the parameters, I dug into it more. Here's the full rundown:

* Palutena's grabs are all sped up a fair amount
* To compensate, their IASA was pushed back
* Overall, the moves execute faster and end slightly sooner than before

I am new to reading these data dumps so correct me if I am wrong. The bullet for Palutena saying invisibility on dodges altered should read more specifically:

Sidestep invisibility changed from frames 9-28 to frames 6-19. A total change of 20 frames to 14 frames.
Forward roll invisibility changed from frames 7-20 to frames 6-17. A total change of 14 frames to 12 frames.
Backward roll invisibility changed from frames 7-19 to frames 6-17. A total change of 13 frames to 12 frames.
Air dodge invisibility changed from frames 7-20 to frames 7-23. A total change of 14 frames to 17 frames.

 

[BJN39]

So apparently Zelda's NAir multi-hits got size increases that went overlooked in any recent patch notes. (Proof: I had had the sizes for 1.0.4 MC recorded, and now Dant's updated MC shows them as larger numbers.) I can't say whether this happened in 1.1.0, or one of the previous two patches, but I thought it should be brought up.

Actual change numbers

all looping hitboxes:

size 3.0 -> 4.7​

 

[A2ZOMG]

You just brought up a curious thought now... Falco's Dair is rarely used, so I don't know if this was possible pre-patch 1.1.0 or since launch, but whatever the case, this means that if Falco "properly" connects all his aerials, he will never have to deal with significant landing lag.

Edit: Whoops, forgot to link what I was talking about.

I think I have an explanation why Falco's D-air is weird.

Reading the data on it, so the sweetspot has two hitboxes, one that hits air opponents (for a spike) and another that hits grounded opponents (vertically). The sourspot actually overwrites the air hitbox specifically, but not the grounded one (probably an easy programming oversight, given it's a new hitbox), meaning in really dumb situations there are edge cases where the non-overwritten ground opponent hitbox actually can connect for the entire hitbox duration of the move.

 

[Ikes]

...toon link was removed from the OP? Wasn't that for confirmed changes only? was nair landing lag reduction deconfirmed? is noo ne paying attention to his confirmed dash grab/dash turnaround grab buff?

 

[Vipermoon]

I tried to reproduce the same exact conditions of the Falco video. I couldn't.

 

[Capitan Olimar]

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_pikmin.bin.txt

Changed fighter_param_vl_pikmin.bin[0]sub[04B][4] from 19 to 18
Changed fighter_param_vl_pikmin.bin[0]sub[04C][4] from 19 to 18
Changed fighter_param_vl_pikmin.bin[0]sub[04D][4] from 19 to 18

dodge/rolls right?

 

[Deleted member]

Hi guys can you please check the following nerf to little mac?

-Little Mac can no longer downtilt -> dash -> upspecial any longer.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

...toon link was removed from the OP? Wasn't that for confirmed changes only? was nair landing lag reduction deconfirmed? is noo ne paying attention to his confirmed dash grab/dash turnaround grab buff?

Landing lag reduction happened several patches ago and no-one noticed. That's why it's removed from the OP. Dunno about grab changes though.

 

[Moydow]

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_pikmin.bin.txt



dodge/rolls right?

Yup, subactions 04B, 04C, and 04D are rolls and spot dodges. That's just the universal 1-frame invincibility nerf.

 

[Mr.ケイ]

With Marth's Dancing Blade having a 5 frame longer window to input the next step, does that also mean Roy's got the same change?