To Those that Oppose the Gameplay Changes

[Jazzy Jinx]

OK, due to some things I found out after posting, I've changed my opinion on the matter. But Kenny, I really wish you would've said that you went to tournies and placed from the beginning. I think Overswarm's response and mine would have been much different in flavor and context.

His last example, that of the techniques, was just there to make a point. He wasn't saying that they were all advanced, he was saying that they were all techniques that good people tend to use.

A Firewire cable is something that's used to connect your VCR to your computer and transfer the material in the tape to the computer. I think it also works for video cameras, but I'm not sure. I'm not the video expert in my crew, I just arrange everything. I'm not sure how much it costs, but I think you can get it at Radio Shack or something. Try Googling it and see what you get. Good Luck, my faith in your debating abilities is restored!

It was completely my fault for not be clearer. I was trying to argue with someone else before I was argueing with Overswarm (who started a different argument) and then all my points and arguements started getting jumbled together. Sorry for anything insulting I may have said.

 

[Zephyr]

It's cool. I think that this thread has been pretty much resolved now. But, it can stay open to allow for the possibility of more gameplay changes further in the future.

 

[Ancient_Shadow]

Wow! I just read 16 whole pages of people b****ing at each other(wavedashing is cheap and should be removed- People who don't wavedash are noobs, scrubs, etc and should die). Why don't we all just grab shotguns, scream "Die you dirty Heathens!!!!" and then blow each other's brains against the wall? You guys are worse than the Israeli and Palestinian conflict.

A good deal of the posts in here were very well thought out, intelligent, and rather informative posts but since this thread so quickly degenerated into an argument pro/against wavedashing and other advanced techniques, which is all based upon opinion, I think that this entire thread for the most part was wasted space. I'm not dissing on all the players here who are much more knowlegable about this game and whom I treat like Gods. It just surprises me how much controversy this forum caused. Some of the people are acting as if their mother was just called a ***** or something...

Just another bit of spam in hopes that this thoroughly exhausted thread will finally die.
Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes and feel free to flame away if it so suits you...

(Edit)...Sorry Goldenmuffin. I didn't see your post previous to mine, eyes getting a little bleary. I wouldn't have posted such a politically incorrect and slightly offensive piece if I had seen that this thread was declared "resolved". Sorry (Edit)

 

[Zephyr]

...it was done. We were all happy together *hugs Uncle Kenny*, but then you decided to walk in and post in the thread after I declared it resolved. Now you die! >=)

JK, JK, that post was probably unnecessary though.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Wow! I just read 16 whole pages of people b****ing at each other(wavedashing is cheap and should be removed- People who don't wavedash are noobs, scrubs, etc and should die). Why don't we all just grab shotguns, scream "Die you dirty Heathens!!!!" and then blow each other's brains against the wall? You guys are worse than the Israeli and Palestinian conflict.

A good deal of the posts in here were very well thought out, intelligent, and rather informative posts but since this thread so quickly degenerated into an argument pro/against wavedashing and other advanced techniques, which is all based upon opinion, I think that this entire thread for the most part was wasted space. I'm not dissing on all the players here who are much more knowlegable about this game and whom I treat like Gods. It just surprises me how much controversy this forum caused. Some of the people are acting as if their mother was just called a ***** or something...

Just another bit of spam in hopes that this thoroughly exhausted thread will finally die.
Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes and feel free to flame away if it so suits you...

Yeah, we could have used without this post. Call my arguments opinion, it's your opinion.

Crap, they were all opinion.

Whatever, hopefully this thread will finally die now. Anyone else want to add their two cents?

 

[Overswarm]

What a kind and polite way to start an argument, "we are superior" yeah that really got me interested in reading the rest of your post. Anyway, I know that adv. techs are all good and helpfull and whatever, but they don't measure your skill. If you have played against adv. tech users long enough, then you will have less of a chance to fall into there so called traps or whatever that WD is intended for. It makes you faster as well, sure, but only by so much. Since there are not that many pro level default users (yeah I said it) you will not know how the few of us train. Instead of straining ourselves learning them we strain ourselves countering them (it is possible).

You can't "counter" wavedashing anymore than you can "counter" jumping.

Advanced techniques allow another avenue for which you to improve. There's a reason there are ZERO pro level users that don't use advanced techniques (find one for me).

I thought this was Smash, not Halo 2? I main Mario by the way. I would say I do have more options, the world of competitive Smash doesn't revolve around adv. techs. It revolves around a player trying to proove their skill level (the most common of those people are adv. tech users). Just because they are the ones that usually play the tourneys doesn't mean they are the only ones.

It is an analogy.

And the adv. technique users are the ones who PLACE in tournaments; there are several scrubs that enter them.

Oh, so everything you say is fact? Can't argue with that...

Can you list another kind? I have never met another type in any game.

Don't really see your point. I admit that some people beat me and never blame it on adv. techs. Nor am I prideful. But as I respect your style, I expect you to do the same.

Not using advanced techniques isn't a style; it is a handicap.

So the prideful scrubs like me only play n00bs? Makes sense...

No, it doesn't matter how good you are, 99% of the smash players around you will be scrubs. Even among the best of the best, there is generally only a small faction of competitive smashers around, and many of them have to drive a distance to meet each other.

I've been to tourneys, beat adv. tech using pros, and I don't have any proof. So I can't really say anything.... I doubt you'll believe me right?

Seeing as how you didn't name any, then I have no reason to. If your tournament is worth any salt, it is more than likely that there is either

a) a post on smashboards about it
b) someone who is at least decent that went to it
c) at least one other person who can back you up and say that you went, and what place you got

So the prideful scrubs like me only play n00bs? Makes sense...

Yeah they all suck, but my cousin plays in tourneys and uses adv. techs. Guess you don't care though.

No, I don't care. Good people use advanced techniques, but advanced techniques don't magically make you good. It's a one-way street; the good players, the ones that get better and better and are actually above average at the game WILL use advanced techniques.

Yep. My skill level is so completely pathetic without techs that I must be lowered to the "have pity on him" standards. Nice job.

Without proof, that is the general consensus of a random kid who says "you don't need wavedash to be good", provides no evidence to the contrary, and doesn't have a rebuttle to the years and years of professional smash play in which every major contender (and the majority of the minor ones) have used advanced techniques such as wavedashing.

I have gone to tourneys, I have won matches and scored high ranks. You are under the impression that if I go to a tourney I will be defeated and then devasted to the point of wanting to learn adv. techs. For a guy who doesn't know me, you sure do know alot about me.

What tournaments?

I've placed top 32 in every tournament I've ever been to, with the exception of FC6 of this summer. This is including several MLG tournaments and two Midwest circuits.

The fact that it is just another move in the game automatically means that it doesn't define anything. That was contradiction. Saying you are superior then turning around and saying it is just another move.

It is just another move, but it's still a good move. It makes you better. How is that contradictory?

I don't WD.
I do l-cancel.
I do short hop.
Screw the c-stick (my cousin is close to my skill level and uses it, although you proabably don't care)
I do dash dance.
Since when was jumping advanced? You think I am just standing there or something?

Who said all of those were advanced?

My point in giving you that list is to tell you that taking away wavedashing from your roster of move limits you just as much as taking away one of the others. You can say "I won't wavedash" and "screw the c-stick", but your edgeguarding game is going to go to hell when you don't wavedash, your spacing is going to suck, your options are limited, and without the c-stick you cannot do things such as running b-airs with ease.

When you take away an option, you are limiting yourself. I still haven't heard a reason for not wavedashing, and I'm still putting my bet on stubborn pride with no basis.

All of those were simple techniques aside from WD. None of them were advanced. (Maybe l-canceling). Man, it is really hard to make counterpoints when the entire argument is based on opinion...

What is opinion?

That the majority of smashers that use advanced techniques are better than those who don't?

That the players who place highly in tournaments use advanced techniques?

That choosing not to wavedash limits your options?



I can't moonwalk with Captain Falcon very well. I can do it to grab the ledge, but past that I have extreme trouble and cannot get it consistently at all; I do better at super wavedashing with Samus than moonwalking.

Do I say "screw moonwalking"? Do I say "you can be a good captain Falcon without moonwalking, and still place highly in tournaments"? Do I say that it is just my "style"?

No, because even if someone did place highly in tournaments with CF without using his moonwalking abilities, it is common sense that it enhances his game; to ignore that is at best childish, and at worst incompetence.


(funny)

Yeah they all suck, but my cousin plays in tourneys and uses adv. techs. Guess you don't care though.

Screw the c-stick (my cousin is close to my skill level and uses it, although you proabably don't care)

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

I try to get out but you just keep pulling me back in. You are severely cocky. Do you have a vid or a tourney list so I can see how good you are? If so, post the link.

 

[GreenCarrot]

el oh el @ this thread.. back on topic to the very first post.. i totally agree. quit whining if they remove wavedashing, im sure it'll be only a few sleepless pimple acquiring nights before one of you nerds finds some other exploit and spams it in a sad attempt to be better than everyone else at something that doesn't actually matter at all in real life.

fact is the game is made for fun, and the designers don't care about what exploits you use and how much it'll hurt your game, they care about money. and the amount of people who buy their game for fun is higher than the competitive community.

why do we even argue about wavedashing.. it's there, what's your point.. use it or not, who cares?.. i don't see what arguing about it is going to do

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

el oh el @ this thread.. back on topic to the very first post.. i totally agree. quit whining if they remove wavedashing, im sure it'll be only a few sleepless pimple acquiring nights before one of you nerds finds some other exploit and spams it in a sad attempt to be better than everyone else at something that doesn't actually matter at all in real life.

fact is the game is made for fun, and the designers don't care about what exploits you use and how much it'll hurt your game, they care about money. and the amount of people who buy their game for fun is higher than the competitive community.

why do we even argue about wavedashing.. it's there, what's your point.. use it or not, who cares?.. i don't see what arguing about it is going to do

QFT

For the sake of being the bigger man, I'll drop the argument all together and ditch this thread. Have fun with your victory Overswarm, feel free to insult me behind my back.

 

[Overswarm]

I try to get out but you just keep pulling me back in. You are severely cocky. Do you have a vid or a tourney list so I can see how good you are? If so, post the link.

http://www.lbpolymusic.com/tio/Event.aspx?EventID=71060012
http://www.lbpolymusic.com/tio/Event.aspx?EventID=1922791557#game2
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=78801&highlight=FC

I can't give you MLG links as the results have been temporarily taken down.


Unfortunately, I have no recent vids, and the only vids I have are friendlies against Kel. My main is currently Marth, at the time it was Falco; here are the vids. You can find others scattered around if you'd like, these are just some of my favorites.

Vids:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v3TyxuyrG6s

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DW9hRvx_a0s&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q-iJeWWinIE&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pd_8RUmUTeU

http://youtube.com/watch?v=***2tHnO8HQ edit: the thre *** is a s and a capital S, the filter blocked it

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-bWDJAAFvg4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ACvkoyN0cj0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wl66UwFoU3A


Whoa whoa whoa.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=89902

Are you kidding?

What point exactly are you trying to prove in THIS thread then?

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

You were missing the entire point of my argument. I use adv. techs but I am saying that that is not how you should measure one's skill level. Skill is how you should tell whether a person is good or not. The whole point of my argument was that adv. techs mean nothing and if someone is skillful with any playstyle, they can go pro. You don't need adv. techs to be pro. You need skill to be pro. Good day to you sir.

 

[Overswarm]

You were missing the entire point of my argument. I use adv. techs but I am saying that that is not how you should measure one's skill level. Skill is how you should tell whether a person is good or not. The whole point of my argument was that adv. techs mean nothing and if someone is skillful with any playstyle, they can go pro. You don't need adv. techs to be pro. You need skill to be pro. Good day to you sir.

Can you show me one, just one case where that is true?

I can just copy and paste the top 32 from every tournament that is worth anyone's attention, and have never seen a single person that was actually good and didn't use advanced techniques.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Can you show me one, just one case where that is true?

I can just copy and paste the top 32 from every tournament that is worth anyone's attention, and have never seen a single person that was actually good and didn't use advanced techniques.

Look, if it makes you feel any better, you win the argument. Now can you please get off my back.

Edit: Let me just get one more word in though, I checked out your vids. If you think you are superior at that level of fighting, then you are crazy. You actually had me scared there for a second, I was expecting someone with unbelievable skills that would shut me up but I wasn't impressed to say the least. I'll admit you are good, but your skills are lacking and telling me I can't win is funny now. But alas, I have no proof.

 

[JJC]

Geez, this is why I don't like the "proffessional" Smash community. So much arrogance. So little room to breathe. This whole "my way or the high way" attitude attributed to the proffessional way of playing Melee is while I'll be SSB64 for life. Unless Brawl turns out how it's looking and I'm hoping it to be. You cannot. I repeat cannot exculde someone because they don't play the same way you do. Smash bros isn't supposed to be about a bunch of clones using the same techs/combos in every battle. It's about expressing your play style through your characters. For example, if me and my friend both play as Captain Falcon (this is SSB64 btw) we both have completely different playstyles to each other even if we are both using the same techs. Since L cancelling and short hopping is as many "advanced" techs as there are in SSB64 it's not about which one's you use. It's about HOW you use your character.

I imagine the same thing should apply for SSBM. No matter how much dancing around with your wavedashing and shffling and your predesigned combo's. No matter what you do, it all comes down to how you use the knowledge of the game to your advantage. There is nothing to say that not using these so called advanced techs puts you at a disadvantage unless you don't know how to play the game in the first place. I've seen noobs trying to play like the pro's they see at tourney's or online and they look like *******es when they try to adopt that style. Again, it's not about WHAT techs you use, it's about HOW you use them.

*EDIT* I also just watched some of those vids... and I must say, rather than helping you, most of those adv. techs were hindering you. You looked like you were too busy trying not to screw them up than actually using them properly to start with. A non-adv techer could take you down without much trouble if that's how you still play.

 

[RelaxImAProfessional]

This is a direct comment to the first post ---

The reason why you think the game shouldnt be changed is because maybe you feel no need to practice, but most people who do like to play COMPETETIVELY because they LOVE THIS GAME TO DEATH, dont want things changed. WhY? Because its HARD, COMPLEX, and worthy of COMPETITION. Its something you have to really try to be good at.

And needing people to get into it? What? Do you know how many people bought this game?

And wait, you dont have a reason to wavedash so get rid of it? why dont you just stay a noob and just not use it, like the millions that dont.

The reason it is on the MLG, or MAJOR LEAGUE GAMING tour is because of how incredibly competitive this game can be when a game is so fast paced and techinically difficult. The reason its on the MLG tour is because players are putting there minds and bodies to their limits, they calculate and excute moves and strategies that take FRAME SPECIFIC timings that can be as fast as 1/60th of a second. That is only a millisecond. THIS IS WHY PEOPLE DONT GIVE A **** ABOUT ITEMS AND DUMB STAGES WITH RANDOM **** HAPPENING. BECAUSE OF THE CONCENTRATION AND SKILL IT TAKES. The reason the rules are set a certain way is because that is how we ****ING wanted them to be. We wanted to play making it as fair as possible.

so in the end A SLOW *** ****ING LAME GAME WHERE PEOPLE DONT NEED TO PRACTICE ISNT THAT BIG OF A DEAL AND ISNT WORTHY ENOUGH TO BE ON THE MAJOR LEAGUE GAMING ROSTER OR ANY OTHER MAJOR TOURNEIS LIKE FC AND OC BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING COMPETITIVE ABOUT DUMB LAZY KIDS WHO CANT WAVEDASH. Wow, I hope noobs dont ruin smash by thinking like this...


Listen really what it is, to the pros and the smash community, and by the smash community I mean the original community of competitive smash players who did anything to get better at the game they loved, for us, it is just a different game.

To us smash has no items or ******** random stages. It isnt slow and easy. TO THE REAL SMASH COMMUNITY WAVEDASHING DOES EXIST AND WE LOVE IT THAT WAY!

 

[Miharu]

Geez, this is why I don't like the "proffessional" Smash community. So much arrogance. So little room to breathe. This whole "my way or the high way" attitude attributed to the proffessional way of playing Melee is while I'll be SSB64 for life. Unless Brawl turns out how it's looking and I'm hoping it to be. You cannot. I repeat cannot exculde someone because they don't play the same way you do. Smash bros isn't supposed to be about a bunch of clones using the same techs/combos in every battle. It's about expressing your play style through your characters. For example, if me and my friend both play as Captain Falcon (this is SSB64 btw) we both have completely different playstyles to each other even if we are both using the same techs. Since L cancelling and short hopping is as many "advanced" techs as there are in SSB64 it's not about which one's you use. It's about HOW you use your character.

Uh. Your post shows your obvious ignorace about SSBM metagame. It's nice if people play the same way as we do; if they don't, it really doesn't matter either. People who do well in the professional community play to win; having a unique style doesn't mean jack **** if it causes you to lose. And it's total bull**** when you say that SSB64 is better because you can "express your style of play," and SSBM is crap/boring because it's a bunch of clones (that is 100% your opinion, since every character is unique in his/her own right.), and revolves around everyone using the same combos, which again, is false. Take Masashi, for example, who is generally agreed upon by the general community to play a mindgame heavy Fox. He doesn't really rely on strings of combos much. On the other hand, you have KDJ, who plays an extremely fast and technical fox.

I imagine the same thing should apply for SSBM. No matter how much dancing around with your wavedashing and shffling and your predesigned combo's. No matter what you do, it all comes down to how you use the knowledge of the game to your advantage. There is nothing to say that not using these so called advanced techs puts you at a disadvantage unless you don't know how to play the game in the first place. I've seen noobs trying to play like the pro's they see at tourney's or online and they look like *******es when they try to adopt that style. Again, it's not about WHAT techs you use, it's about HOW you use them.

*EDIT* I also just watched some of those vids... and I must say, rather than helping you, most of those adv. techs were hindering you. You looked like you were too busy trying not to screw them up than actually using them properly to start with. A non-adv techer could take you down without much trouble if that's how you still play.

THATS BECAUSE THEY'RE NOOBS; NOOBS GENERALLY HAVE A WEAK MINDSET, AND CAN BE EASILY OUTSMARTED, ADVANCED TECHS OR NOT. You've proved my point in your post. Advanced techs are just another tool, and if you already suck as a SSBM player, all the advanced techs in the world won't really help you (in the spectrum of human ability, of course).

I don't like classifying people as having "good" or "bad" mindgames, but it's necessary for this. Here's an example: Take two people, A and B. Person A has excellent mindgames, is able to read people very well, but he doesn't know much advanced techs. Person B, on the other hand, is a purely technical player, but his mindgames suck ***, since he plays very predictably. So if these 2 hypothetical individuals were to play each other, who would win? For the first few matches, B most likely would, since A just wouldn't have the technical skill to cope with B's wall of "spam," if you will. But over the course of a few games, A will be able to adjust to B's repetetive playstyle, and develop a counter to said playstyle without the usage of advanced techs. Given that this case is extremely rare, you almost never see this.

I love hypocracy, don't you guys? You should, because of how much of it you spew.

First, when we discuss the tech's themsleves, you get all defensive and says using them doesn't make you win instantly.

Then we discuss the players using them. Now you're saying you will use if you don't use them.

Nicely done Uncle Kenny. Glad I have some solid support, as I haven't been to any tourny's outside of campus tourny's, although there are plenty of competitive people there as well.

So what's it going to be guys, adv. tech's = win or no? Because your two arguements contradict each other.


<-- ~Half A Grand!~
Woot!

You were missing the entire point of my argument. I use adv. techs but I am saying that that is not how you should measure one's skill level. Skill is how you should tell whether a person is good or not. The whole point of my argument was that adv. techs mean nothing and if someone is skillful with any playstyle, they can go pro. You don't need adv. techs to be pro. You need skill to be pro. Good day to you sir.

I really have to disagree with this. You need advanced techs to be pro. Having just one or the other won't cut it at that level.

I've always taken one standpoint on this, and a firm one at that. Advanced techs =/= instant win. That's because at lower levels of play, there are mindless spammers, along with people who think intelligently when they play. The former would be those with "weak/poor/bad" mindgames, and the latter would be those with "good" mindgames. But once you move up into the upper echelons of play, advanced techs become more of a requirement than an option, since most, if not all, pros have at least a decent level of mindgames, if you will, and also a decent level of technical skill to accompany that. What I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that all pros have AT LEAST decent mindgames and tech skill; that's what allowed them to get to where they are. So here's the answer to your question:

At lower levels, advanced techs don't guarantee a win. However, at higher levels, advanced techs are a must if you want to win, except for in very rare cases, such as that of Aniki, who doesn't WD.

And to those who are just posting mindless comments without reading through any of the previous posts: You're not contributing to this discussion in any way, shape or form; you're just helping it degrade even more quickly into a flamefest.

 

[commonyoshi]

Geez, this is why I don't like the "proffessional" Smash community. So much arrogance. So little room to breathe. This whole "my way or the high way" attitude attributed to the proffessional way of playing Melee is while I'll be SSB64 for life. Unless Brawl turns out how it's looking and I'm hoping it to be. You cannot. I repeat cannot exculde someone because they don't play the same way you do. Smash bros isn't supposed to be about a bunch of clones using the same techs/combos in every battle. It's about expressing your play style through your characters. For example, if me and my friend both play as Captain Falcon (this is SSB64 btw) we both have completely different playstyles to each other even if we are both using the same techs. Since L cancelling and short hopping is as many "advanced" techs as there are in SSB64 it's not about which one's you use. It's about HOW you use your character.

Ever think you exclude advanced players with your unceasing whining? I dont mean "you" as a personal remark. I was refering to everyone like you who claim that people who use advanced tactics hate nubs.

PS: I laugh at your originality. Play enough and it all pretty much becomes the same style, regardless of watching videos or not. I never saw many videos and one day, I noticed that I played exactly the same way some pros did.

Edit: Pros pwn without advanced techs. With them, they pwn even more. It is necessary to do all these techs to become great at the game since there are people just as good as you using these skills for a bigger advantage.

Analogy time! Say some loser is wearing top of the line Nike's while some olympic champ is wearing sandals. The olympic champ is going to win simply because he's a better runner. Then comes another professional runner with Nike's. The first pro is doomed because he isn't prepared properly.

 

[terr13]

Advanced techs only help if you know how to use them correctly, and it's not necessary to master all of the advanced techs. Many players don't use very many advanced techs, and still do fine. Wavedashing by itself won't win a game, it's only a tool. Getting rid of it is unnecessary. The majority of the players who use advanced techs don't look down on other players, unless they're mindless spammers/campers or so.

 

[Zephyr]

Overswarm, please do us all a favor and be quiet. You're totally misunderstanding the situation. Uncle Kenny just doesn't use WD, but he uses other techs like L-cancel, and it IS possible to be as good as Kenny says he is without the WD. Think I'm wrong? Try watching some of Ken's vids. BTW, I do use WD, I main Fox and Marth, and I do well in a very competitive smash scene. I hosted a tourney with a turnout of over 50 people. I have the credentials and I know what I'm talking about.

Guys, this thread has been fought over a loong period of time, and all that's going to be said has been said. Drop it. There's no point in reiterating the obvious. Screw it, what am I doing here, helping this useless thread to survive? I'm outta here.

 

[commonyoshi]

If writing a whole page of text over and over is what's needed to snap people out of their anti-advanced tactics notions then I'll gladly write volumes. The Smash community will be a better place.

 

[Zephyr]

If writing a whole page of text over and over is what's needed to snap people out of their anti-advanced tactics notions then I'll gladly write volumes. The Smash community will be a better place.

QFT

*hugs Commonyoshi*

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

I really have to disagree with this. You need advanced techs to be pro. Having just one or the other won't cut it at that level.

I've always taken one standpoint on this, and a firm one at that. Advanced techs =/= instant win. That's because at lower levels of play, there are mindless spammers, along with people who think intelligently when they play. The former would be those with "weak/poor/bad" mindgames, and the latter would be those with "good" mindgames. But once you move up into the upper echelons of play, advanced techs become more of a requirement than an option, since most, if not all, pros have at least a decent level of mindgames, if you will, and also a decent level of technical skill to accompany that. What I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that all pros have AT LEAST decent mindgames and tech skill; that's what allowed them to get to where they are. So here's the answer to your question:

At lower levels, advanced techs don't guarantee a win. However, at higher levels, advanced techs are a must if you want to win, except for in very rare cases, such as that of Aniki, who doesn't WD.

And to those who are just posting mindless comments without reading through any of the previous posts: You're not contributing to this discussion in any way, shape or form; you're just helping it degrade even more quickly into a flamefest.

Ah, I see what you are saying. I suppose you need at least a few adv. techs (like me) to be pro. But you don't need a heavy aresenal of them. Quality wins over quantity in this game. How you apply your techniques (even if you only have 1 or 2 adv techs) determines if you will win or not. Or so I think so. If someone sucks at this game, it doesn't matter if he uses adv. techs. Again, it is all based on skill that determines if you are good or not. Although, when going pro, I suppose you need at least a few adv. techs. I kinda forgot that I used some because they were second nature.

 

[Zephyr]

I like fire, don't you guys?

>_>

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Yo common, you have any vids? I want to see how good you are. (This is a friendly request not a, hey I am going to argue with this guy request, I know commonyoshi OK overswarm?).

 

[Overswarm]

Look, if it makes you feel any better, you win the argument. Now can you please get off my back.

Edit: Let me just get one more word in though, I checked out your vids. If you think you are superior at that level of fighting, then you are crazy. You actually had me scared there for a second, I was expecting someone with unbelievable skills that would shut me up but I wasn't impressed to say the least. I'll admit you are good, but your skills are lacking and telling me I can't win is funny now. But alas, I have no proof.

I'm not trying to win an argument. There isn't even an argument. I'm saying 1 + 1 is 2, you are saying 1 +1 is 10. You are slowly but surely going down, saying 1 + 1 is 9, then 8, then 7, slowly getting closer and closer to the real answer.

I've asked several questions several times over that you've been unable to answer because there -aren't- answers to them.

I'm trying to show you that you -need- advanced techniques. You can't hope to be good without them; taking out one is just as stupid as taking out any other.

 

[Sliq]

Wavedashing isn't REQUIRED to win a match. However, choosing not to use it only closes a door. Aniki can win with Link and Samus without WD'ing (or at least without doing it a lot). However, if you wavedash backwards of of the ledge with Link, and follow that up with a nair, it can cach your opponent off guard and give you a stock lead.

L-canceling is a MUST if you are going to play competitively. Your only other option would be to have the best mindgames in the world, I'm talking psychic here people.

Whenever you get more technical, more mindgames open up. For example, jumping off of the ledge at Yoshi's Story with Falco, WD'ing across the platform, and then running off and bairing. You can catch your opponent off guard (mindgames, son) and hit them with a bair. If you aren;t capable of doing this, then that option is gone. You have one less way of getting off of the ledge and hurting your opponent.

When it comes down to it, mindgames > tech skill. However, they are both important.

To reiterate:

Wavedashing: not necassary to win, but you lose options but not using it.

L-Canceling: absolutely necassary, otherwise prepare to get shield grabbed.

I would be fine if WD'ing wasn't in Brawl, but to remove l-canceling would be ludicrous and would water down the game.

 

[MikeMan445]

Don't judge people's skill from videos.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Kenny: What is your definition of pro? For example, players like Zelgadis are NOT pro. Neither is Bob Money. Neither is most DBR. To you, these players may appear to be "pro" but alas they are not.

In MLG, pro players at top 16 in point rankings in singles or doubles. Outside MLG a pro player is usually just the top 8-16 at most tournaments, or a player with the ability to do this (Dope placed 17th at CoK2, but everyone knew he could have placed first, and indeed a month later he placed first at SMYM, ahead of over 100 competitors).

Just name a tournament you have been to and your placement. I'll go first.

BOMB1: Didn't enter, but did friendlies
BOMB2: 13th singles, 5th in teams with Kiraki
BOMB3: 13th singles, 5th in teams with KM
BOMB4: 69th(IIRC, its up there) singles, 17th teams with Kiraki
GS2: 23rd singles
CP tourney 1: 5th singles
CP tourney 2: 6th singles
random DC tournament: 4th singles
random DC tournament: 6th singles (these don't really count, but team Ben swept them)
MLG DC: 49th singles
MLG New York, Anaheim, Chicago, Orlando, Las Vegas: didn't play, staffed them
CCX August: 5th in teams with Vist, 3rd in pool in singles (lost to Chillin/Plairnk)
CCX September: 9th in singles, 5th in teams with Vist
NOD3: 5th in teams with Vist
Cok2: 17th in singles, 3rd in pools in teams
SMYM: 3rd in pool in teams (lost to Joe/Drephen and L33t/Kel), 3rd in pools in singles (lost to AOB/B Ryan)

So you see, I've been around awhile, I do not consider myself pro, but through working with MLG I have played ever pro in the country, and I have been to a fair share of local tournaments, the results are all the same, the ones that win are the ones that use advanced techniques.

If you want a video of me, check this out: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3033005119519411737&q=alphazelot

I'm the Peach player. I'm using one hand, which means I don't use any advanced techniques. I'm playing a player who is technically proficeint (in your eyes "pro"), yet I 4 stock him. Why? Because of expierance. I'm still no where near pro either, but chances are I could take you with one hand.

 

[Zephyr]

...Just what are you trying to prove? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult your experience or anything...but it seems like you're only attacking Kenny's definition of "pro". I know what a pro is, and it's certainly not anyone from DBR save perhaps for King or DSF. Slig probably has one of the most sensible posts on this page. You just don't need Wavedashing to win. You need L-Canceling for sure, it would be stupid for one not to use that in a game based so heavily on aerial combos. Therefore, since Kenny basically does everything but that which excludes WD, he has a reasonable argument. True, he limits himself by not using WD, but is he really limiting himself that much? WD may open more mindgames, but if he uses enough brainpower, he can more than make up for it in skill. Just saying my two cents.

 

[Overswarm]

...Just what are you trying to prove? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult your experience or anything...but it seems like you're only attacking Kenny's definition of "pro". I know what a pro is, and it's certainly not anyone from DBR save perhaps for King or DSF. Slig probably has one of the most sensible posts on this page. You just don't need Wavedashing to win. You need L-Canceling for sure, it would be stupid for one not to use that in a game based so heavily on aerial combos. Therefore, since Kenny basically does everything but that which excludes WD, he has a reasonable argument. True, he limits himself by not using WD, but is he really limiting himself that much? WD may open more mindgames, but if he uses enough brainpower, he can more than make up for it in skill. Just saying my two cents.

Kenny has yet to really do ANYTHING to prove his point. The thing that everyone is waiting for is for Kenny to come up and show some sort of proof to back up his claims.

You do need wavedashing to win. You don't need it against your cousin or some random badkid, but against anyone that is good, you need wavedashing to add some layers to your mind games, as well as your spacing.

 

[Zephyr]

Kenny has yet to really do ANYTHING to prove his point. The thing that everyone is waiting for is for Kenny to come up and show some sort of proof to back up his claims.

You do need wavedashing to win. You don't need it against your cousin or some random badkid, but against anyone that is good, you need wavedashing to add some layers to your mind games, as well as your spacing.

Fine then, I'll prove it for him. I'll just not WD for an entire match and we'll see what happens. I'm going to a smashfest today with another crew coming over, so I'll play one of them without WDing. BTW, all the peeps in that crew have placed well in tournies before, so don't give me any credentials crap. My point was that while WDing does had layers to your mindgames, it's not as lifesaving as you believe it to be. And this is coming from a Fox and Marth main. I'll post the results later.

 

[Miharu]

Fine then, I'll prove it for him. I'll just not WD for an entire match and we'll see what happens. I'm going to a smashfest today with another crew coming over, so I'll play one of them without WDing. BTW, all the peeps in that crew have placed well in tournies before, so don't give me any credentials crap. My point was that while WDing does had layers to your mindgames, it's not as lifesaving as you believe it to be. And this is coming from a Fox and Marth main. I'll post the results later.

I'd like to see your Fox without any wavedashing. Granted, it's not that big of an impact for Fox, unlike it is for Luigi, but without wavedash you won't be able to apply one of Fox's bread and butter moves, which is waveshine -> jc grabs. You also lose out on a key method of spacing for Fox, and I'm guessing you're Fox won't be as smooth as it usually is since wavedashing helps Fox to flow from one move to another.

Marth can easily be played without wavedashing, so that's not as big a deal if you don't use WD when you're playing as Marth.

So wavedashing is a pretty big asset for some (Luigi, space animals), and for others, it's just an extra technique that isn't required for playing that character (Link, Samus, Jiggly, eve Peach to a certain extent).

 

[Overswarm]

Fine then, I'll prove it for him. I'll just not WD for an entire match and we'll see what happens. I'm going to a smashfest today with another crew coming over, so I'll play one of them without WDing. BTW, all the peeps in that crew have placed well in tournies before, so don't give me any credentials crap. My point was that while WDing does had layers to your mindgames, it's not as lifesaving as you believe it to be. And this is coming from a Fox and Marth main. I'll post the results later.

The "credentials crap" will keep on coming up until someone actually says they went to a tournament and gives a name and results, and when they say "I will play this person" or "I have played that person", they actually say their names.

All I'm hearing from the "you don't need wavedashing" people are "Trust me, they're good."

 

[terr13]

Only a few "advanced" techs are necessary to win, most notably L-cancelling. Wavedashing, and the other things are extremely useful, but not necessary to play at professional level, depending on the character. For example, Aniki and Ken rarely use wavedashing in their games, but they are still considered pro. However, for some characters, such as falco/fox, advanced tech are a necessary to play at a high level.

 

[Zephyr]

The "credentials crap" will keep on coming up until someone actually says they went to a tournament and gives a name and results, and when they say "I will play this person" or "I have played that person", they actually say their names.

All I'm hearing from the "you don't need wavedashing" people are "Trust me, they're good."

No, you're hearing from me "They've done well in tournies, popular ones." Try stating the truth in your posts and we might get somewhere.

These results are from the ninth San Diego Triweekly, the last one held by CAOTIC, and it had over 50 people in attendance.

1 Ken (1*)
2 DSF (2*)
3 Mike Y (11*)
4 CAOTIC (19*)
5 Arash (9*)
5 Azeem (13*)
7 Edrees (10*)
7 Mana (4*)
9 PandaX (18*)
9 Champ (16*)
9 Bruce
9 Jeff
13 Romeo619
13 Blitz
13 Rickety
13 Tp Fox
17 E40
17 Jon619
17 DC
17 The BOSS
17 Tp Fox 4
17 ASP
17 SNPR
17 Tran
25 Rofa
25 Tony
25 Tp Fox 2
25 Doodles
25 Araknophobik
25 Paul Mitchell
25 Giza
25 Paul Bolen
33 Nezumi
33 JFK
33 audreyh
33 The Person
33 Jack
33 Juice
33 Eddy
33 Tp Fox 3
33 Saint Patrick
33 Nug
33 LBK
33 Kyle
33 LHK
33 Saur
33 Jake the Boy
33 Gonzalo
49 Bleh
49 Donovan
49 Nwordtim
49 Ryan

I'll be playing The BOSS, and he plays Peach and Jiggs. No Waveshines should be fun, eh?

 

[Junpappy]

I'm trying to show you that you -need- advanced techniques. You can't hope to be good without them; taking out one is just as stupid as taking out any other.

Is there a need to use advanced techs when you can hit your opponent without them, using mindgames? No.

I'm not opposed to the value placed on advanced techs btw.

Edit: To the original thread starter; People who have the "elitist" perspective oppose slowing down Brawl because it limits the amount of skill that can be used in the game, not because it allows new people to play effectively with less effort, although I'm sure this opinion has already been stated in the 19 pages I was too lazy to read.

 

[Mr.C]

why are peeps bad repping me for a topic i havnt posted in for like 4 months?

yall need to stop sucking **** and quit being little panzy *** *****es

if u suck at this game, then you suck... game over...

ssbb will have advanced techs if you like it or not quit being *****es

ima bout to spam bad rep to every mother ****er in here

id also like to add since above posts say aniki and ken dont wavedash etecetc

Ken does very much ive seen him play and ive played him.
and from what i understand aniki cannot wavedash very well but makes up for that because he can do everything else.

and for all of you complaining about wavedashing dont do it? it doesnt win u matches...it doesnt make u pro, it "CAN" help out your overall skill

 

[commonyoshi]

Yo common, you have any vids? I want to see how good you are. (This is a friendly request not a, hey I am going to argue with this guy request, I know commonyoshi OK overswarm?).

No, I dont have any videos. I'm actually not that good of a player since I only play against level 9's. If I had more experience against real people, I could do pretty well in this game.

 

[Junpappy]

why are peeps bad repping me for a topic i havnt posted in for like 4 months?

This topic was the most current thread in the Brawl forum so I simply commented on it. I wasn't trying to bad rep you; I merely commented on it and never flamed/insulted anyone.

 

[Zephyr]

I won. =P

Against his Marth, Jiggs and Peach. This is PEACH, mind you, not the best matchup for a fox without waveshine. Wavedashing doesn't make or break a player, it certainly helps him, but he's developed his style without wavedash I say yay you. My style uses wavedash, so it's harder for me to win without it. Yet I still won.