To Those that Oppose the Gameplay Changes

[JJC]

You guys are polarising the types of Smash players. I'm neither a casual nor a Competetive player although I lean more towards competetive and would compete if I lived closer to the Smash hot spots. I play with only certain items on, the non-cheap ones like hearts and stars etc. It's all fair play if a beam sword or a paper fan lands near a person sicne juts because they have an item doesn't make them unbeatable and actually makes them waaaaay more predictable. I hear the complaint of bombs dropping out of the sky onto unaware players too often too. Seriously guys, it's happened to me in Melee maybe... oh I don't know, 5 times over the past 4 years or so. And that's the death inducing ones, or game breaking one's.

there's the same amount of chance that that'll happen as there is that a Smash attack will not do anything to someone just because they were a tad too far out of range so the effect is only that of a tip and deals damage, not knockback. To me that's much more annoying than the minute chance that a bomb may drop on my head while charging a smash attack. That and I personally, from playing so many item matches, know exactly where items drop and the average interval between item spawns so it's even rarer still for that to occur.

As I've said in the past, I don't think competitive play should involve all items on, very high ice climbers stage every **** match but just cutting out ALL items and ALL non-"competitive" stages just because you're afraid of a lil bit of randomness (which seriously is inbuilt to all the fighting mechanics anyway) which, like a card game, isn't there to throw you off, it's another aspect to use to you're advantage. Using chance to you're favour is a skill not many pro's have the opportunity to use since they're always playing the same way over and over. To me that's not the be all and end all of skill.

Back on topic though, the only advanced tech I personally think should be removed is Wavedashing, not because I can't do it (I can and with ease) and not because I think it's cheap (depends on the character using it I guess). It's because it isn't even a real move. It's an exploit of the physics/ engine and the friction in Melee (which is too low for my taste, but I'm a 64 vet so I guess that's why). It's stupid to think that the developers intended air dodging to be used in that way and they obviously never thought that people would ever find it, let alone a use for it in proper gameplay. It's used for spacing and as a substitute (or replacement) for rolling which was the intended method of spacing.

In other words, it'd be like bunny hopping in CS. Running was meant to be the best an most useful way of getting around at the expense of you making noise and you're recoil being much more extreme than standing still. But due to a physics/friction exploit (which is why I'm using this comparison) people found a way to jump around with no speed reduction, in fact they were gaining speed and could shoot accurately enough to make bunnyhopping the prefered method of movement.

But with CS's case, it is a PC game so it could be patched. Melee isn't. So we have to wait til Brawl to decide whether or not Wavedashing is a bonafied skill that evolved from an exploit (ala bunnyhopping in Quake) or if it's just not meant to be (CS).

No matter which way it goes I'll just have to roll with it and move on. That's what seperates me from both groups, Casual and Competetive; No matter how the game changes, it's still Smash Bros and I'll learn and play it to death no matter what. Items, no items, stages on or off, I'l be playing it.

I just hope the game doesn't cater to one group more than the other.

 

[Red Exodus]

Blackshadow, I don't see it as being one or the other. I see it like a bar, with one side marked casual and the other marked competitive. Similar to JJC, I'm neither so most things don't bother me other than people suggesting game breakers like increasing the lag from moves and reduced damage if you spam them (that sounds a lot like Smackdown vs RAW 07).

I don't use advancing techs because I thought I'd never need them. I never played someone who could defeat me time and time again so I never had to turn to these techs. Now that I'm part of the Smash community I've seen how useful these techs can be (I'm a Fox player, so they're even more useful) if you can use them to your advantage (i.e. mindgames).

I'm since in the middle of that bar, neither casual nor competitive (yet).

P.S. If anyone missed it I said adv. techs are fine they don't come across as 'haxz' more like secrets.

 

[Blackshadow]

What do you mean you are neither Casual nor Competitive? They ARE the only two groups, because Competitive are the ones who play competitively and Casual Smashers are everyone else. There could also be a "Awakened Noob" catergory, in which is a transition phase between the two main groups.

All items are "cheap" i.e give a random bonus to someone without using any skill. Hearts restore your health; that means everything your opponent did in the last 30 seconds was for naught. Stars = invincibility, that means you can get free hits on someone without them being able to do anything about it, which could get you drillshined off the stage. That leads to Fox being even higher tier, because he can drillshine without fear of a counter attack when he eventually shine spikes his opponent off the stage.
And just because bomb drops dont happen very often, doesnt mean that excludes them entirely. Just like xeonoex said, no-one wants to lose $10,000 because a bomb landed on their head at the last second.

You may know where all the item drops are, but that doesnt mean that the opponent couldnt mindgame you towards that very spot and suddenly the bomb comes along. And besides that, if you are constantly worrying about when an item will drop on your head then its going to make you perform much worse in battle. This is what the competitive world prevents, you dont NEED to worry about something random occuring.

Pros are NOT playing the same game over and over, thats just ridiculous. There are many different players out there all with different strategies and characters, which means every match contains something new; be it a surprising 4 stock come back or just your average match.

You can't use chance to your favour, its a random thing, which means you are relying on something that is reliable. The reason we remove chance is to keep things skillful, and to be skillful in no way coincides with your ability to be lucky.

Once again back on topic, wavedashing is not an accident, I can garuntee. It is obvious that someone had to code what happens when you hit the ground while air dodging, it's something that you couldnt miss. If you were the programmer, what do you think should happen when you hit the ground after air dodging? Here is what they most likely thought:

Hmm..well sliding sounds logical, lets do that!

And so they did. I cant think of anything else that would work properly, they probably couldnt either. There was only one thing they didnt count on, and that was doing the process of jumping and airdodging diagonally into the ground QUICKLY. Now that shows it WAS programmed into the game, just not for the reason it was to be used for, and thats totally fine.

Wavedashing not an actual move? Yeah, thats true. Its a tool. Its a way of getting around. Running is not a move, you cant attack with it, its just for evasion and moving. And thats exactly what wavedashing is used for: Evasion and moving.

And don't know anything about CS, so i'll leave that to someone else.

Console games can be patched, in a way. They re-release games, as new versions. If a glitch or something of the like is game breaking, then they make another version of the game, free of said glitch. Thats the case for almost all games. And I assume that bunny hopping in CS hasnt been removed yet, so I doubt its in any way gamebreaking, just an advanced technique. Just like wavedashing.

I'm sure we'll all play Brawl, and enjoy it for what it is, but if it means isolating one group over the other than a lot of people will be unhappy, and as I said in my previous post, Casual Smashers dont need to use wavedashing, so it is to no concern to them.

Removing advanced techniques is catering one group over the other


EDIT: This post is aimed at JJC, not you RedExodus. You posted while I was typing up this massive post

 

[Red Exodus]

Lol, ok I was wondering how you typed such a massive post in such short time

 

[Blackshadow]

Lol, yes well...

Anyway there's a couple of things I noticed about your post.

Moves DO go down in damage the more you spam them, but in a different sort of way then what you are most likely thinking. If you repeat a move three times, it's damage goes down with each consecutive button mash (lol) but if you do some other moves for a while then the original move that you repeated 3 times will have gone back to normal damage. Make sense?

You also said you are starting to become more competitive. That is the transition phrase, is it not?

 

[Red Exodus]

I didn't notice the spam thing, I guess I never spammed enough to notice. Anyone said they wanted it to be worse(far ess damage and more lag) O_o, which sounds like a gamebeaker to me.

I guess I'm in transition since I found these forums but I can't train right now because my GC isn't reading anymore plus I don't know how I would get to the MLG tournaments. For now I'll start small and try to win local tournaments. Although I think some of them keep items on and let the stages be choosen randomly instead of counter picking, etc. plus all stages are in.

 

[Blackshadow]

Oh yeah, after a while the damage doesnt go down any further (I think after 3 times...?) but to request it to go as low as I think you are implying then hell you wouldnt be able to use a single move twice 0_o so yeah its not THAT broken lol

Yeah, its good you are going to tournements, because as long as you are getting human experience then its cool, but at some point you'll need to find people who dont use items or all stages because you might get really good on a banned stage or rely on items too much. Thats if you still want to go competitive

 

[Red Exodus]

Right now I don't play with items one since most people that play me make mad dashes for *any* item lol. They normally try to beat me with it if it's a battering item then throw it, I normally shine it right back at them

But I try to stay away from using items, I remember one time naired my friend on Corneria and a bomb dropped right where we clashed, it was halirious but I took most of the blast.

 

[JJC]

What do you mean you are neither Casual nor Competitive? They ARE the only two groups, because Competitive are the ones who play competitively and Casual Smashers are everyone else. There could also be a "Awakened Noob" catergory, in which is a transition phase between the two main groups.

No. There is not just "Competetive" and "Casual". I know very well that I could beat a lot of the good players on this board just from watchng videos and reading on how they view the game in general. I learnt everything you guys teach here before even finding these boards. Of course I called everything something completely different but I knew what you were talking about once I "translated" it to what I knew it as. There IS a middle ground and it's not defined by skill, but by attitude. If there were tournaments that I knew of near me I'd go to them just to see how other people play for real. For now, I just have my group of friends who are also better than a lot of other people and do use advanced techs in play.

All items are "cheap" i.e give a random bonus to someone without using any skill. Hearts restore your health; that means everything your opponent did in the last 30 seconds was for naught. Stars = invincibility, that means you can get free hits on someone without them being able to do anything about it, which could get you drillshined off the stage. That leads to Fox being even higher tier, because he can drillshine without fear of a counter attack when he eventually shine spikes his opponent off the stage.
And just because bomb drops dont happen very often, doesnt mean that excludes them entirely. Just like xeonoex said, no-one wants to lose $10,000 because a bomb landed on their head at the last second.

Again, I just said that I agree that SOME items are cheap. But just because when your opponent gets an item in his hand that isn't a Star, Heart, Hammer etc you die instantly doesn't mean I do. Once again I'll attribute that to my experience playing with items ON so I know how to handle people with them. I also know how to use them even more than inexperienced "pro" players. You just alienate yourselves from one aspect of skill in the game to favour another. Doesn't make your style of play any better or more skilled than mine. Just different.

You may know where all the item drops are, but that doesnt mean that the opponent couldnt mindgame you towards that very spot and suddenly the bomb comes along. And besides that, if you are constantly worrying about when an item will drop on your head then its going to make you perform much worse in battle. This is what the competitive world prevents, you dont NEED to worry about something random occuring.

If someone mind games me into an item spawn then guess what, they earned the right to get a KO off that situation since they obviously had a plan for that. I personally love when a bomb is let loose and everyone plays around it trying to combo their opponent into it for a finisher. Instantly another layer of depth is added to the match. Same deal when mines are on, the way the match is played changes for the better since you have to be aware of your surroundings and keep a lot more in mind than just "opponent is here". Funny, who'd have guess items could do that??

Pros are NOT playing the same game over and over, thats just ridiculous. There are many different players out there all with different strategies and characters, which means every match contains something new; be it a surprising 4 stock come back or just your average match.

So if you love variety in your matches (it is the spice of life after all) then why not add a couple of items (not many, just a few hand held ones) to start off with til you get acustomed to the handlings of them and play around, seriously or "competitively" and see how that works out for you. You'd be surprised how far off base you are with you're anti-item jihad.

You can't use chance to your favour, its a random thing, which means you are relying on something that is reliable. The reason we remove chance is to keep things skillful, and to be skillful in no way coincides with your ability to be lucky.

Of course you can't control chance, but you can control what happens AFTER the items appear (by the way I don't play with them on very high incase you didn't get that by now, Very Low to Medium is the best way to play). Someone gets a Fan, you know not to shield but you can also lure them into going for you when you have your shield up and counter before they get to you. Having the items yourelf opens up so many more combo opportunities in itself. Seriously, try it out before you knock it.

Once again back on topic, wavedashing is not an accident, I can garuntee. It is obvious that someone had to code what happens when you hit the ground while air dodging, it's something that you couldnt miss. If you were the programmer, what do you think should happen when you hit the ground after air dodging? Here is what they most likely thought:

Hmm..well sliding sounds logical, lets do that!

And so they did. I cant think of anything else that would work properly, they probably couldnt either. There was only one thing they didnt count on, and that was doing the process of jumping and airdodging diagonally into the ground QUICKLY. Now that shows it WAS programmed into the game, just not for the reason it was to be used for, and thats totally fine.

Mmm, you don't seem to know much about programing, especially concerning physics interaction and such. It is EXTREMELY posisble that the glitch or exploit known as Wavedashing came about juts due to the fact that Air Dodging was supposed to make you just air dodge in mid air if you angled it to the ground, only if you started it very soon before leaving the ground/landing the animation wouldn't kick in and instead the momentum would cause you to slide, completely unintentionally, in the direction of the air dodge. This is further shown as a mistake on the programers behalf when you se that air dodging into a wall doesn't "slide" you off it or even cancel your dodge, nor does air dodging downwards a little later than a Wavedash would. if Wavedashing was intentional it would have it's own animation and it would not feel so glitchy to use (hell it just plain WOULDN'T be a glitch lol).

Wavedashing not an actual move? Yeah, thats true. Its a tool. Its a way of getting around. Running is not a move, you cant attack with it, its just for evasion and moving. And thats exactly what wavedashing is used for: Evasion and moving.

Only, we already have a method of evading and moving/spacing out our moves. It's called rolling. Ever heard of it?

And don't know anything about CS, so i'll leave that to someone else.

Console games can be patched, in a way. They re-release games, as new versions. If a glitch or something of the like is game breaking, then they make another version of the game, free of said glitch. Thats the case for almost all games. And I assume that bunny hopping in CS hasnt been removed yet, so I doubt its in any way gamebreaking, just an advanced technique. Just like wavedashing.

Yeh, in Counter Strike they REMOVED bunnyhopping because it broke the game. Wavedashing isn't as game breaking as bunnyhopping in CS is but it's still there when it wasn't meant to be. Only because either the developers didn't know it was there, didn't care that it was there, or couldn't do anything about it.

I'm sure we'll all play Brawl, and enjoy it for what it is, but if it means isolating one group over the other than a lot of people will be unhappy, and as I said in my previous post, Casual Smashers dont need to use wavedashing, so it is to no concern to them.

Removing advanced techniques is catering one group over the other

Casual smashers don't need to use it, but then again, pro's don't either. It's a move that we could do without if rolling was improved (like it seems to have been from the Brawl trailers). It's a move that we can all live without and it's the only advanced tech that I could personally not give a crap if it was given the boot. The rest are fair game.

Sorry for the hoooge post, just needed to clear that up

 

[Blackshadow]

Yeah I had one of those bomb incidents, it was hilarious.

Corneria it was (seems a lot of bomb droppings happen there...) I was playing my noob friend (who insisted items were on) so i decided I would try and finish off his last stock with the laggiest Ganon attack: the Uptilt. So I walked up to him and Uptilted, when suddenly he moved away just as a bomb appeared in his place! It was hilarious, I was like "**** I'm gonna die the worst death!" and whats worse is that the laser from one of the Arwings blew up the bomb JUST as my foot was about to hit the bomb, just a fraction of a second too late to save my life...but yeah thats just one of many bomb stories I can remember lol

EDIT: This time the post was aimed towards RedExodus, obviously. I'll start writing up my reply to JJC's post in a minute

EDIT2: Sorry about double posting but its a big post, so it helps to have it put away seperately.

 

[Blackshadow]

OF COURSE you could beat a few good players if you learnt up on what they did. Thats becoming more competitive, and without advanced techniques you would NOT be able to beat them because a handful of said advanced techniques are important, such as SHFFLing.
Attitude is only a small contributor to overall skill, as in if you have Negative Nancy and Positive Polly battle each other and they were the same skill level then PP would win because he has the mindset to WIN . Only in the case of an equal skill battle this would happen, which is not very often, so that makes that point not very important compared to the rest.

It doesnt ALWAYS mean instant death in the case of items, but we are listing potentials here.

Alright, try this. Battle Ken in a match on any stage with items on, and I'll bet that he'll still beat you. The best item user in the world couldnt beat Ken either, and thats because of one thing: MINDGAMES. That is the most important skill in the game, and he has honed it to become the best. Some aspects of skill arent as important to being the best or even a pro than others. Being an item expert doesnt take much compared to mindgames or even technical skill. Claiming to be better experienced than pros in an area of competitive smash counts for naught; you need to be good at the things that are important.

Items are a fun thing. I played using items for a nice juicy 2 years before I got interested in Competitive Smash. I know how to use items very well, but get me in the ring with Ken or any pro and they'll beat me to a pulp. Items belong in Casual Smash, not Competitive.

What if you were to simply run towards your opponent with a dash attack to have a bomb appear, would you call that your opponent earning a stock?

We all did, I think there was something about East Coast and West Coast (not sure, I live in Australia) where West Coast used items and East Coast used Time matches. There was a big debate and in the end it was decided that if a bomb drop were to occur then it wouldn't be an opponent's skillful playing, so that influenced the dropping of items from competitive play. See, we tried it, and it didnt work, happy?

Once again, we DID try it. But there is still the case of the bomb dropping at hand, that still overrides everything else. Using chance to our favour still doesnt solve the bomb problem, among others.

It is EXTREMELY POSSIBLE that wavedashing ISNT a glitch. And regarding the animations, would you REALLY like it if your character was holding that same ******** position that occurs during air dodging to remain the same on the ground? I know I wouldnt.
What else could you use as an animation of hitting the ground? Think boy think, whats more natural and cost efficient then making it the same as standing? Nothing that comes to mind here that doesnt cause unneccasary lag.
Wavedashing doesnt look glitchy either, it looks like sliding, thats not glitchy looking.

Ever heard of an alternate form of movement and evasion, such as...oh my what a guess WAVEDASHING. We like variety, as you said before, so having one more NON CHANCELIKE OR RANDOM way of moving cant hurt, right?

Ok, well as I said before I have no experience with CS, so my apologies.

Wavedashing is not the same as rolling, as hard as it is to believe. We utilise wavedashing, but dont utilise items. Casual players dont NEED to utilise items but they are there. You might not care about losing wavedashing but countless others do, such as myself. This is our world, so it shouldnt be messed with, because we didnt come to the Casual Player's world and wreck it.

 

[AlphaZealot]

No. There is not just "Competetive" and "Casual". I know very well that I could beat a lot of the good players on this board just from watchng videos and reading on how they view the game in general. I learnt everything you guys teach here before even finding these boards. Of course I called everything something completely different but I knew what you were talking about once I "translated" it to what I knew it as. There IS a middle ground and it's not defined by skill, but by attitude. If there were tournaments that I knew of near me I'd go to them just to see how other people play for real. For now, I just have my group of friends who are also better than a lot of other people and do use advanced techs in play.

I'm calling your bluff. Throw out a name. Also, where do you live, it can probably be arranged for someone to show you what you don't understand.

You guys are focusing on the wrong part of the (old) item debate. It's not so much that once the item is in someones hands its cheap, it is the unpredictability of A)where the item spawns and B)if it is a capsule/box, where that capsule/box is explosive. If a beam sword spawned every 30 seconds at the middle of FD it would add to the game play because that point on FD every 30 seconds would become a hot spot, a territory to fight for control over until the item spaws. Alas, this is not how items work.

This is further shown as a mistake on the programers behalf when you se that air dodging into a wall doesn't "slide" you off it or even cancel your dodge, nor does air dodging downwards a little later than a Wavedash would. if Wavedashing was intentional it would have it's own animation and it would not feel so glitchy to use (hell it just plain WOULDN'T be a glitch lol).

First, wavedashing doesn't look glitchy/awkard, it feels natural and it flows well into the game. Second, designers intent means little, there are tons of things that exist today and are rather useful that were not created for there current use. It doesn't illegitimize the invention/creation in anyway. Wavedashing, whether it was intended or not, is in the game, and it adds to the game (the strategy, the skill, the manuevering), which is a biggy. Wavedashing, if it was intentional, was genious because the programmers essentially installed an on the ground feint, similar to double jump feints in the air. If it wasn't intentional (most likely the case), it simply doesn't matter, because the game is a livin entity, similar to basketball. Do you think the original creators of basketball intended 7 foot players to dunk the ball but not be able to make a 15 foot foul shot with no one guarding them? Nope. Doesn't matter though, dunking revolutionized basketball and added another dimention to the game, similar to wavedashing.

 

[JJC]

Where abouts in Australia do you live? I'm on the west coast myself (Perth) and I'd love to find more Smash players around here.

On topic, I know what you're saying and of course I'd lose to Ken no matter what the settings since he's that good a player (theoretically speaking of course). One could argue that Time matches are cheap, since whoever gets a stock up in the last minute can literely just run and avoid combat to time out the other player. You could say the ultimate way to judge skill is to play only Bonus Melee so that you're judged on style AND KO's. Of course to each of these options there are negaives and downsides, the same way that both Item and non-Item matches have them. I don't see item matches as being a problem, mainly because I don't go all out with them.

I don't play with the cheap items on and the drop rate is rather low but they are there. I know I can't convince you otherwise and I also know you don't know what kind of item match I play by so I'll have to leave it at that in this regards. Oh and I forgot to let you know that I play both item AND non-item matches competitively with my mates, and overall, I see the most skill come out in item matches because it's so dynamic and nothing is certain. I guess I just like that degree of spointanious play.

Wavedashing is very glitchy in appearance. You're character ducks and slides in a manor that looks very unnatural considering how smooth and good looking all the other animations are. I'm also quite sure that if you turned the friction up on Melee like it was in 64 wavedashing would probably be non-existant or would only work with characters like Luigi since Melee feels like your playing on ice most of the time.

I know it's not the same, unlike rolling there is next to no punishment for wavedashing and right there, it becomes an exploit. Exploiting a move that gains you movement and evasiveness but has no downside (other than the way it's performed and even that's a piece of cake once you know it) sounds pretty **** broken to me. At least rolling has the pause before and after so that it's not abusable. When the primary form of evasion/spacing is hardly used or substituted with an exploit it becomes a problem for the game imo.


EDIT for AlphaZealot:

No need to get on the offence. It's only a discussion. I know you're thinking I'm just another casual Smashers who fell out of a barrel cannon on a DK level and onto this board but I can assure you I know just as much as any other good player here. To be fair, I play the orginal Smash Bros (64) much more than Melee simply because I feel it's a better game alltogether. Just because a feature (legitimate or not) is in a game doesn't mean it will be there in future revisions. If it's in Brawl, I'll get over it and use it when I play. For now, I don't care for it since it sticks out like a sore thumb compared to other manoeuvres that actually have animations attributed to them.

West Australia, Perth. Anyone in the area I'd love to have a game against somoene outside of my circle of friends.

Hope I haven't offended anyone btw, I'm not here to start trouble. Only wanted to shed my view on the subject matter.

 

[Blackshadow]

I'd love to find more smash players too, but unfortunately I live in South Australia, Mount Gambier (lol not many good people in my area).

Yes back on topic again, as a smash community, we have decided all together on what is the most skillful form of play. There ARE many skillful forms of playing Smash, as you have listed, but most of these just arent as popular and seem more gimmicky than the others. This is why you only really hear of the Item debate, because it is considered not very gimmicky and is also seen as more skillful than the other forms of play (excluding no items).

It is good that you play both forms of the main game but I cant get past the thought of items being a fun thing, advanced techniques being a competitive thing. This is my own opinion shared by many others, just as yours is shared by many others too. We all have different tastes and opinions.


See AlphaZealots post, it will probably be more informative to you than mine ever will lol

Wavedashing is simply a more efficient way of moving. It is used in Competitive Smashing, and that is all that is to it. Its not broken, it can be punished once one gets predictable (see Aniki and he'll show that wavedashing isnt everything). It isn't a problem for the game, it simply adds depth. It means you have to come up with even more possibilities in defending and attacking and if a technique forces people who play competitively to step up their game then it is in no way a bad thing, in fact it is the best possible thing you could want.

 

[JJC]

I'm sorta getting caught up in the debate too much to stop myself from complaining about wavedashing like it's killing our children or something

What I meant to be saying from the begining is that while I don't agree with it's use and it's existence, I'm not against it per se. I just wouldn't cry if it was removed is all. I can live fine without it and it annoys me to see so many people who live and breathe wavedashing like it's the only way to move around in Melee.

I'd love more than anything (maybe not a return to 64 physics ) that rolling replaces wavedashing as the best way to evade and space but until I get my grubby hands on Brawl I'll have to wait patiently...

 

[Blackshadow]

Lol yeah I'm starting to get tired too, its like 3:41AM here XD

Its fine that you dont agree with it, we all have an opinion after all The longer you stay here at smashboards the more it becomes obvious that wavedashing isnt as important as it first seems, but it still is important for some characters such as Samus and Luigi.

And with that we shall wait for Brawl and see what happens, eh?

 

[Red Exodus]

I wonder what new items will be in Brawl, if characters from other series come in I know for sure will we get items. We might see some for Kid Icarus, maybe Metroid Zero Mission and maybe something from MGS. I guess only time can tell.

 

[frankisvital]

Bravo.

I've yet to post anything at all on smashboards, and I can't think of a more worthy topic for my first than this one.
Here are my opinions:

-I'd rather not see the game slowed down, I like it how it is. I like the speed of the game, I like the chaos. I played the orginal Smash Brothers a month or so ago, and I was astounded at how slow it seemed, especially considering how fast it felt when it was the only Smash. But no matter if the new game slows down or speeds up, we'll adapt to it, just like we adapted to Melee.

-I don't like wavedashing. I don't like playing against people who use it excessively. I think it's ugly, and detracts from the visual value of the game. It detracts from the fun value of the game for players who have trouble with the advanced techniques. But I understand the value it has to some players, and I see the potential it has. Personally, I'd like to see it removed, but if it isn't, I won't boycott the game.

-I don't play with items a lot, but I always enjoy it when I do. Same with the banned stages. So a bomb dropped on you or you got splattered by a car on Big Blue and it cost you a stock. So what. Stop making excuses and don't let it happen again. Dealing with random changes in your situation is just as much a measure of skill as exploiting a glitch.

-I played Ness in the orginal Smash Brothers. I was very disappointed in how he changed in Melee, but I sucked it up, and I started to play Marth, who I've become quite good with. Now lets say the same thing happens to Marth (or Fox or Sheik) that happened to Ness. So I have to relearn him or I have to switch to a new character. What's the matter with that? It shakes things up a bit.

Video games are meant to be fun. For everyone. Not just for the best of the best. So the game slows down. Speed yourself up. So they mess with Sheik. Learn to play Pit. I'm sure theres a few changes we haven't even though of yet, and we'll have to adapt to them. If you want a game that you can play over again with better graphics and more characters, buy Madden.


P.S. Even Madden changes gameplay sometimes, so quit whining.

 

[felix45]

. If the game is slightly tweaked to remove Wavedashing, a glitch that shouldn't exist (even if the programmers noticed it and left it in, it doesn't mean they saw the full ramifications of leaving it there), then fine, so be it. I can't Wavedash around my group of friends because none of them can do it; they don't bother to practice it, and refuse to play against me if I actively use it, and as such, I find no need to practice it either. So Wavedashing gets removed? Good. Explain to me why it should be left it.

wow, your are so wrong there, you should just stop now.

1st: in debug menu it is refered to as a landfall special, meaning it was INTENDED to be in the game and is NOT a glitch.

2nd: your friends are ******** scrubs and should become enlightened or stfu and play their scrubby version of ssbm and stop *****ing.


get your really crappy facts straight son, you are going nowhere with that pure bull****. I'm not even going to comment on the rest of your crappy argument, because really after reading JUST that I have no reason to sift through that eye sore of a post for some type of intelligence.

 

[Zephyr]

wow, your are so wrong there, you should just stop now.

1st: in debug menu it is refered to as a landfall special, meaning it was INTENDED to be in the game and is NOT a glitch.

2nd: your friends are ******** scrubs and should become enlightened or stfu and play their scrubby version of ssbm and stop *****ing.


get your really crappy facts straight son, you are going nowhere with that pure bull****. I'm not even going to comment on the rest of your crappy argument, because really after reading JUST that I have no reason to sift through that eye sore of a post for some type of intelligence.

And it's people like YOU who make our argument seem completely invalid. Flamers only take away from the validity of an argument and cause more strife.

Just to let you guys know, this topic was thoroughly discussed a couple months ago in this same thread. No reason to continue, it's all been said. If you want to know who wins, look through it. Or you can take my word for it. Pro-advanced tech-users win for one simple reason: If WDing gets taken out, tech-users lose, noobs don't care, scrubs don't care. If it stays in, tech-users are happy, noobs don't care, scrubs don't care. "Noobs" in this context mean people who are unaware of a smash community or advanced techs. In the end, it's best for everyone if WDing stays in. I hope you understand that reasoning.

EDIT: In case you get inflamed over my usage of the word "Pro", it meant "for", not Professional. Just clearing that up in advance.

 

[felix45]

wavedashing isn't all that is technical about smash, and it really doesn't set it apart from many fighters at all either. heck the term more than likely just carried over from other 2d fighters I'd assume. so if they took out wavedashing I'd still probably get brawl assuming they dont change anything else technical about the game in general.

also I wouldn't mind them slowing down the pace, SSB wasn't nearly as fast and I personally like it better (mostly because I'm better at it but still...lol). there are pleanty of slow paced fighters as well, the pace doesn't bug me either.

but from the way I saw the translation in the sticky it really does bug me that nintendo may very well take out more technical things than just wavedashing (which apparantly is the problem for most smashers, when really isn't such an uber gigantic part of the game in comparison to something like l cancels, teching in general, other cancelable moves and such, etc. etc.)



true most of the buyers for the game wouldn't really care if they dumbed down the technical part of the game, but then again there is only 1 person I'll ever truly care about (hint hint )


sorry for being a complete *** at first, but I get my points across better that way usually :D

 

[Bolshoi]

Adapt, evolve, and stop loosing hair over whether or not wavedashing is taken out or not. If it's non in there, are you going to be less of a player? Is it going to totally ruin the game for you? Are you going to start loosing every single match? I'm willing to bet no. Stop getting hung up on what might be. If they still have wavedashing, great. If they don't, learn to play without it.

Besides, there's that quick-dash move that's practically featured in the Nintendo World trailer (because they have at least 3 clips dedicated to showing it off). Something like that could easily replace both wavedashing and rolling.

 

[Sculelos]

I know how to wavedash, but I don't really care on way or another if it stays or goes, the fact is that Brawl will be a little slower paced then melee and that means wavedashing will probably be gone, since doing it would put you in a crawl anyways, at least thats what I think will happen.

 

[Aeramis]

Well IMO, I found wavedashing to make the game alot more fun and give more too it. If they slow down the game alittle bit, I guess that is fine but I would rather they speed it up Keep in mind, this is a FIGHTING GAME with the intent to be "fun". What does a "fun" ssb really mean to you?

Well for me, I want the game faster so that it requires more skill and I would like more balance with all characters. Tiers are lame and everyone should want to play a character for other reasons then "I;m teh B3st EvEr cau5s I P1ay top teir characters!!!1!!1one!omfgw00tz". I know it is almost impossible to make all characters perfectly balanced but hopfully they will improve the balance on this ssb game (brawl) so that whenever you play online, if you can, you don't just see foxs, falcos, cpt. falcons, marths, and shieks more then 75% of matches or new replacement chars that are so called top/high tier.

About Items in matches, I find anything that has a huge luck percentage to helping someone win make fighting games very boring and crappy. By "a huge luck percentage" I mean where it appears on the stage and what it was. Example: I am playing the ssbb finals in some online tournament against someone and we have to use items... I could be 2 stocks up and just because they get to very lucky with health items or starmans back to back, while for some reason all the exploding items keep appearing on me for the rest of the match... and so due to bad "luck" I lose. Bottom line is, items do not show who has the most skill which is what most all real tournaments should be about. Same goes for some things in stages, like DKs barrel that saves people and/or those fish that can kill you. Now these things do add to the game but most people want to play a fighting game with as much skill involved as possible and not luck. Owning people in a ->fair match<- while be flashy with hard to do combos that can be very effective in the right hands, as in pure skill, can be ALOT of "fun". That is what "fighting games" are all about. So you can see my point.

 

[Red Exodus]

I can't WD, L-cancel or anything like that, I want to learn but I can't [hopefully everyone knows why already] but at the same time it won't bug me if they stay in or get removed. If they stay I'll learn them and if they don't the game will still be SSB so I'll still buy it [when I get a Wii].

 

[tshahi10]

Its all about skill. nothing is cheap. I main marth ,but I have won a tourney with Pichu as my main character. Its not the stage or wavedashing, its just the timing and practice to utilize all character aspects. look at koreandj. He rulz with Pichu.
A common misconception of pichu is that he is weak. No, the player is weak and probably did not go after low-pro before labeling pichu and such
Wavedashing.OMG. it is not cheap. It does not seperate good from bad, jusst the lazy jerks and the white and nerdy pros....... I mean umm.... the lazy jerks and the people who try to practice to get better.
You do not need wavedash to win, just look at the pro aniki, he rules at link and even samus and does not wavedash, yet he is one of the best and can even Ken

 

[Blackshadow]

I think a lot of people are getting the misconception that we will all hate Brawl if it doesnt have wavedashing in it. This is in no way true. We all love Smash and if there was anyone who didnt want to play Brawl without wavedashing well they arent representing our community at all.
All we are saying is that it would be good to have wavedashing in Brawl, and if it isnt then so be it, but when people come in here and accuse us of things such as not playing Brawl without wavedashing then it becomes annoying.

 

[swift]

Yeah true that.

 

[Icetrash]

I think they should just leave it as it is! Just add new characters, delete some characters, change movesets around abit, new stages, new 1-player game. That formula would equal fun!

 

[oddgloat]

It completely depends on someone's skill level. The speed of melee takes a lot of skill to master and separates the true smashers from everyone else. Complaining about someone being able to wavedash is like complaining about Marth's fsmash. If you're not good at smash, Marth's fsmash probably seems like the "best" move in the game because you can't get around it. Should they take that out of the game because you cant beat a stationary Marth standing in the middle of the level hitting forward on the c-stick? Those complaining about wavedash being a "glitch" and an unfair advantage need to learn to hit "jump, then down on an angle + block at the same time". If you cant do that, then I dunno, I don't know how to help ya. Also, it's just using the physics of the game to your advantage. If there's an air dodge in brawl, doesn't a wavedash have to be possible (unless they make the air dodge completely stationary, which would really limit your getback possibilities and predictability which would also be a huge mistake)? As for the items, I get a big kick outta turning on the star rod and throwin it at someone and knockin them down and out at a 45 degree angle, but they're never gonna turn items on for a tourney. If you turn on only select items, then certain characters will have more of an advantage (your point with Mewtwo and the fan), so the only logical solution would be to turn on all items. If this is done, then there is a large element of luck added into the game. How many times have you been winning a match and a star manifests inside your opponent when your jumping to attack or a bomb in a capsule lands on you when you're jumping around at the top of the screen? Tournament players don't want to see these things determine the winner. Therefore, if a certain character's advantages are based off of an item/certain item and their other skills are limited because of that, then they will just have to be lower tier (or seen as less effective than other characters to some people) and will be used less in tournaments. All things in smash have their place, from items to wavedashing. It just depends on what type of play we are talking about. As for slowing it down, I sure hope that they don't or that it's a minuscule change. Look at how many members of smashboards there are. From reading a lot of posts over the past couple of months, it seems like everyone (for the most part) is pretty advanced with their technical skills and that a vast majority of people who are going to buy brawl are accustomed well to the speed of melee. Now go to training mode and play on 2/3 speed. Yipee.

 

[Hank McCoy]

this entire thread is too bad to even be closed. it shoudl be deleted so no one can read this ever again. im so embarassed that people actually post this **** on smashboards.

 

[Blackshadow]

Mind giving reasons for why its so bad instead of posting dog**** posts?

I think its actually quite good, n00bs are actually bothering to make long posts to prove their point, and thats something you dont see everyday.

 

[WhiteOblv]

Man everyone just quit your whinning and wait till the game comes out.

 

[Blackshadow]

We're just discussing/debating, which is interesting and fun to participate in. Its not whining unless its annoying and has nothing to do with what we are discussing.

 

[youtellatale]

just because i am curious and did not want to read twenty four pages of responses...did anyone consider that the game is going to be "slowed down" but in the same way that SSBM has wavedashing to help speed up gameplay, there would be some way to move much faster in Brawl? I am quite sure that someone has probably brought up this point but like I said, i didnt want to read 24 pages of it to find one quote. Maybe "slowing down" the game is just like saying "find out how to move faster, there is a way."

 

[Red Exodus]

Unless there's a super run, 100% L-cancel (on any animation) or something like that there isn't going to be a way to 'find out how to move faster'. If they want to slow the game down I doubt they will leave any room for error.

 

[Zephyr]

I think Youtellatale has a pretty good point. In fact, he gets plus rep because I know for a fact that that hasn't been posted ANYWHERE in this thread, which is a rare occurrence nowadays. Good job. Now, on the point itself, what he says is completely plausible. How did we discover l-canceling and wavedashing? Experimentation. Accidents. That's the way it worked, we had no way of knowing wavedashing existed until some ****** decided to air dodge into the ground, a whole lot of good that would do him. >_> I see noobs play everyday and I see competitive players play everday (I mean that) and the noobs really play on a much slower level than we do. They only know WDing exists because we do it while they watch. Some of them just don't have the motivation, but then again some do. (A Luigi player out of this group comes strongly to mind, he plays Luigi quite well for someone who isn't able to practice.) Perhaps the developers won't mention the tactics they put in, but we'll still discover them. There's no way to know. And Red Exodus, I think that you're limiting your thoughts and being rather close-minded here. He's not saying that l-canceling or wavedashing will still be in, but at least he's allowing for the possibility of there still being advanced techniques. Sorry if I read into this too much.

 

[the problem]

The game they made right now is perfect.

There are more pros then noobs im sure. Taking out wavedashing is like taking out rolldodging+sidestepping for most of us, to tell you the trust i can't even play without it anymore. We don't want the gameplay to slow down because we like to play fast because it makes the game alot more fun instead of just *roll dodge forwar front smash, roll dodge backward etc....*. As for items i dont care which items are in the game as long as they can be turned off. So you think just cause you get lucky and pick up a star and just own the person when they cant do anything about no matter how much skill they have, same goes for items such as hammers, bomb-ombs etc...

p.s i think arial combat is perfect the way it is with that shffling if noobs' can't do it... to bad learn it if you wanna get somewhere with the game.

p.p.s I'm sure someone will find advanced techs in brawl like they did in smash just give it time.

 

[Mr.C]

wding will be in the game as long as there is an air dodge

gg noobs

 

[deadleather]

Well, we don't need washdash, we've played without it. But Sakurai left wavedash in intentionaly, because if he didn't like it he would've taken it out when he created the new versions. As you've probably seen there are some gliches that were put purposly, such as superwavedash and Moonwalk. So basically those arn't gliches, just like wavedash. I think it should be left in because it's a skill and takes a lot of practice to master and ur also saying how we want this game to stay a unique fighting game, how many games have airdodge? That's what i thought! lol, I really think wavedash should be called airdodge cancel.

For ur aerial thingy, i like the idea of it, so i'm with ya.

For ur next paragraph, we take off items because we want to see how well we can handle the character alone, because anyone can use a pokeball, it doesn't take skill to throw downwards. FYI, there are some tourny's with items. For the stages, i also believe it takes skill to adapt to the stages. I guess the reason we took off stages was because people complain to much and we don't wanna hear them complain, lol.

I agree with ur last paragraph. I don't want the gameplay to stay the same, otherwise it'd be boring. It'll be like playing melee on Wii. Change is good, and it's not our game, it's Sakuai that has complete control, if you don't like it you'd might as well save ur money and not buy brawl and keep playing melee.

I don't see anything wrong with brawl, i think it's gonna be awesome and kick our @$$3$

CRAZY post, much respect

MAtt