To Those that Oppose the Gameplay Changes

[Paranoid_Android]

I don't care at all if the gameplay changes. I care very much that it is still challenging, skillful, and balanced. It doesn't matter how many people are in the community if the game isn't up to snuff to be competitive.

 

[Red Exodus]

I'll buy brawl no matter what. It will bother me if characters, stages, items and advanced techs. are out but it won't bother me enough to make me change my mind.

 

[YOSHIDO]

Me im for the changes. Wavedash will probably still be there since air dodge there. But i LOVE the equalness in characters. HOpefully All the tier list just melt into one tier. Smash tier. Im in melee theres just some match ups no matter how good the chararcer is like say game watch or somethin. He cant do nothin against other charcters. Chain grabing might be alot differnt in this game too. But my hope is just for an even plain. It will make smash so mutch more intersting. Just think A master for each character. With the new crawl THis will proabably add for even more ways to attack. More mindgames. More srategies.. P.S hopefully yoshi can jump out of his sheild.

 

[petre]

i was just wondering, with that new 'crawling' that you can do in brawl, theyre going to need a button or something to do that, right? i mean, that would get annoying if it was like you hold down or something to do it, cause people would be accidentally doing it quite a bit (well i would at least...)...otherwise if they make it a button, then that means theyre getting rid of a current button's function to make this...im sure it will work out fine, but i like the way the controls are now...
what im basically saying is i hope at least the controls are the same.

 

[experiment111]

Good post man. Its nice to see someone speakin out against people who complain about "slowed gameplay" OH TEH NOOOESSS!!!!!! Foolish people, im gonna buy brawl and love it, u kno y? Cos its the greatest celebration of nintendo and all its franchises, It will be **** fun and The best, most chaotic, brilliant, unparalleled, awesome, MEGA SUPERDUPER UBER AWESOME AMAZING GAME EVER!!!!!!!!

P.s. The pro community needs to remember the game is not being made for them

 

[FiErCe_oNi]

i agree that people shouldnt complain if the game is changed, for thats what newer games get. updated changes to make it better. i think that you misunderstand the stance on items in competitive play. they are different from levels like poke floats, which people shouldnt copmplain about because it has a repeating pattern. items on the other hand are completely random, unpredictable and can mess up anyone even with constant training. this forum was created for tournament smashing, so you shouldnt be complaining about the tournament community and how the game should be bad for them here. items are good to make the game funner, but can be frustrating if you are really playing a agme based on skill. the tournament community is important because without it, SSBM wouldnt be nearly as popular as it is now. after a while, playing a game for another reason other than beating other players can get very boring.

 

[THK]

Honestly if people still want Melee they should still play Melee and not bother with Brawl. Some people still stuck with SSB64 because they didn't like Melee turned out. And this is true for many a fighting series.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

Too lazy to read 25 pages of posts, so I will just reply about the first post...

Elitist hypocrites??? Well, there are other tourneys that does items and allows every stages... Though the game was made so that you can edit how you like to play it...

The game will be slowed!?! I like how Sakurai thinks of other people, but those other people should have played SSBM before grabbing SSBB... Easy is not what we want, challenging at one's own level is more like it... If Fox is kept the same as from SSBM and the gameplay would end up being slowed down, even just a bit, then Fox would be godly as ever...

Smash is never "another fighting game"... Its a platform jumping fighting game... =D Fighting games are games where you have one ground and have to remember a whole bunch of moves that is sometimes hard for you to remember...

Again I say this, wavedashing is just another form of movement... There is nothing abusive about it except when its applied to Fox/Falco... Other than that, its just like using dodge roll, except a that it gets you to more places and doesn't get you invincible... Ken, Smexy God of SSBM, rarely uses wavedash so you can't argue about it much...

Hmmm, I thought PokeFloat was counter-pick...

Low tiers = People who rarely use... Every fighting game has their own sets of tiers, so not much to argue... But because they are low tiers, that doesn't mean they are worthless... I've seen low tiers beat the living crud out of high tiers in advance gameplay... People just don't like the character in general, that's all...

Change is good... Drastic change where everything is unrecognizable is bad...

 

[FrostByte]

Example: You're in the last round of a tournament fina PLaying as Samusl. You and your opponent are at 150% damage and you manage to just about knock him out of the fray. You charge up your shot and wait for the right time to let it go. BAM! You shoot. But what's this? A poof of smoke has revealed a bob-omb in front of your face. Your shot hits the bomb, good bye, you lose. You don't go home with a massive cash prize.

It seems to me that Sakurai actually wants the game to be a rendom party fighter. What he's doing is cutting out the core gamers and catering to the caj. Nintendo seems to be doing this a lot with the Wii and I don't like it at all. Melee is a game you can pick up and play no matter your level. However, the more you play it the better you get. Simple as that. What you're saying is that you want everyone at the same level so winning is down to luck, right?

 

[Icetrash]

Since Melee is so popular, why the hell don't they just leave it alone! Bring out Brawl with new characters, stages, items, 1 player mode and of course better graphics. LEAVE THE GAMEPLAY ALONE! Smash is good for what it is. The gameplay is fast and you have to have good reflexes to what is happening on the screen. IMO changing the gameplay is just idiotic. Without the "Pros" that attend tournies Melee wouldnt be so successful as what it is.

 

[Red Exodus]

Trash, then it wouldn't be a sequel it would just be SSBM 1.5.

Look at Halo. People thought it would be more of the same with Halo 2 but it turned out Halo 2 was the only FPS that earned the title 'Halo killer', go figure.

P.S. Don't flame me for being a Halo fanboy because I'm not one, I don't even own a Xbox [360[ but I plan too. I'm just using Halo as a good example for what a sequel should be like.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Bottom line is SSBB might be great fun dumbed down... For the first three months. After that, once you have collected and unlocked everything and played your friends for a couple hundred hours, are you going to be playing it intensely in a year? To years? Five years? No. You're not. Games don't live that long without a tournament community, and tournament communities don't live without a challenging game. Making SSBB available to more audiences by making it easier is good for Nintendo - Not good for you... Not good for Smash.

 

[pirate-404]

There's bound to be little things that aren't covered in the manual that players eventually will discover. Look at the SHFFL. The three techniques involved in a SHFFL are definitely intended, yet they were never covered in the manual or in the game. Players found those themselves and experimented until they found how useful it is.

Even if Sakurai decides to take out wavedash, we may get another technique in return. After all, wavedash was introduced in Melee, not the original. Although I find it hard to imagine how the game will play without wavedashing, I'm confident we'll find something to replace it if it's taken out.

So, even if the game gets slowed down, I'm sure there will be small little tricks that we'll find to speed up the gameplay.

 

[experiment111]

I played my smash game for 5 yearsand im situated nowhere near any tournaments (I dream of online brawl)

 

[fabianmo]

I dont care if they change some stuff here and there
As long as the game stays as competitive as its always been ill be happy

 

[SirKibbleX]

While I agree with the OP that the game needs to change, I disagree with many of his arguements.

"Video games thrive on new players joining the fray constantly. If the game is slightly tweaked to remove Wavedashing, a glitch that shouldn't exist (even if the programmers noticed it and left it in, it doesn't mean they saw the full ramifications of leaving it there), then fine, so be it. I can't Wavedash around my group of friends because none of them can do it; they don't bother to practice it, and refuse to play against me if I actively use it, and as such, I find no need to practice it either. So Wavedashing gets removed? Good. Explain to me why it should be left it."

Did you know that in Street Fighter 2 'cancelling' attacks was a glitch? How about how juggling was an unintentional mechanic in many fighting games before it became an established strategy in games like Tekken and Capcom fighters? Mechanics of the game may be unintentional, but when they work, companies don't need to completely eliminate them, they need to embrace them, inform all players (like in the manual or a training mission or something) balance them, and re-release them. The shield parry was an unintentional mechanic of Yoshi in the original, and the improved power-shielding system and spot-dodging systems I think may have stemmed from that accidental mechanic. To say that a company should remove a new mechanic just because people can't do it would be like removing comboes back when only a few peoplel could do it, rather than doing the intelligent thing:

Simplifying the system.


"I remember during the initial preparation for this game, that everyone was complaining about Melee turning into "just another fighter". One such argument: If they added Supers into it, that's a bad thing. Well, they sure as heck added Supers to it, didn't they? And they did a fine job at it too, by making it 'optional' for all you 'pros' who don't like fighting with items and only play on certain levels. This is where your hypocrisy comes in: If you don't want this game to be just like any other fighter, why are you trying so hard to make it like one? You remove items. Why? Because they take away from the skill required to play? No, you take them out because they're "random" and it makes the game "unfair". Bull. Items make the game more frantic, and add the chaos factor that regular fighters don't have. You play only on a small selection of levels, and you ALWAYS get rid of the moving levels, such as Poke Floats. Why? Because they're "random" and it's makes the game "unfair". Bull. The moving levels make the game more fun by making the players have to concentrate on more than just their opponent, something that regular fighters don't have.

By cutting certain levels and removing items, you completely destroy certain characters' only good qualities. You can bet that Mewtwo would be a better character if items were allowed, because the moment he picked up a Paper Fan his opponent would be afraid to put up his shield. Pichu is Bottom Tier because you removed the only thing that gave him an advantage: items. Because PokeFloats and Big Blue are turned off, it's impossible for, say, Kirby to gain an advantage by using the environment as a weapon. By turning off the "unfair" levels and items, you make this game exactly like all the other fighters out there, only lo and behold, you have to do your own combos. But in removing levels and items, you also remove several combo opportunities."

Sigh (rserved for edit, I gotta finish this later).

 

[mfong]

I won't bother to read all twenty something pages of posts but from what I have read, it appears that there are numerous arguments that are perhaps posed in an intelligent manner but lack logical consistency.

To the previous post: while it's posed in a seemingly intelligent and definitely lengthy manner, there are so many things wrong with your arguments.

First of all, you are correct in stating that randomness does not make a game unfair. But your argument fails is in your claim that it is because of this fact that 'pros' are hypocrits. Randomness introduces a factor of chance. There is a natural balance between chance and skill; the more chance there is, the less skill is required. The distinction between smash and a regular fighter is that smash requires skill. It can be argued that regular fighters also requires skill but that kind of skill requires memorization of combinations of buttons, while the skill in smash is improvisational (the combination of button pressing is not set). So when you say that the elimination of items and levels makes smash more like a regular fighter, can you see that it just eliminates the factor of chance and in turn increases the factor of skill, which is what distinguishes smash from regular fighters.

You also make the claim that unintentional game mechanics should be embraced and balanced. "Simplifying the system" is the term you use. Unintentional game mechanics by definition of game mechanics are balanced. Game mechanics define game play equally for all players. Just as items don't make the game unfair because they are available to all players, the game mechanics don't make the game unfair because all players are treated the same (excluding arguments of character differences because character choice is the option of the player and not defined by the game mechanics).

From this, I would assume that brawl will be just as competitive as melee.

 

[SirKibbleX]

I think that you misread my quotes from the opening post as my own opinion. I pretty much actually agree with most of what you have to say, but I disagree with you that unintentional game mechanics are inherently balanced. In fact, that's complete bull****. If only Marth could wavedash, then would it be balanced? How about if, any time samus lands, she's invincible for 1 second? There's a point where, 'glitches' and 'unintentional mechanics' suddenly become 'exploits.' It adds a new factor of balance testers didn't consider (dash length and smash speed, etc.) so it is more likely to unbalance certain players. And since I DO think that items are inherently unbalanced/unbalancing (imagine a heart spawns right next to your opponent, or whatever powerful item you wish to consider), I think their use should be minimized, or find a way to spawn them in a balanced, fair way (don't spawn healing items when one person's damage is dramatically higher, spawn all weapons halfway between players, etc.)

Oh, I found this one interesting: this is you:

"Randomness introduces a factor of chance. There is a natural balance between chance and skill; the more chance there is, the less skill is required. The distinction between smash and a regular fighter is that smash requires skill. "

then later...

"Just as items don't make the game unfair because they are available to all players, the game mechanics don't make the game unfair because all players are treated the same (excluding arguments of character differences because character choice is the option of the player and not defined by the game mechanics). "



The idea is characters and levels can have their differences, but when using items or certain stages, it completely boils the game down into "these are the only characters who have a chance, and then even still, since the spawn locations and items spawned are random, there is an even smaller chance of skill being the deciding factor in winning." The problem isn't that the platforms are moving, the problem is that some characters can't cope, so we eliminate those levels.

Make note of the fact that I'm not saying that Smash should eliminate its variety: that's one of the things that makes the game great. I just want to make sure that on any flat levels, with items disabled, all the characters will be as balanced as possible in all respects and that the skill of the players will determine who wins, as consistently as possible. Smash is already like a lot of other fighters out there, even if our 'combos' are free-form, it's just as positioning-important as SF3:3S. However, don't think that Smash will become worse, I have high hopes for Nintendo creating new _intentional_ mechanics and doing a spectacular job balancing (wow, after re-playing SSB64, I realize how much more balanced that game is than Melee, but Melee is more balanced than a lot of fighters out there, so I'm not complaining!)

 

[Zephyr]

SSB64? Balanced? Sorry, but while it may be balanced, it's balanced in a normal fighter kind of way in that every character can pull off an inescapable 0->death combo. I really do not like the idea of that. Not saying the game sucks, it's pretty good, but while Melee may be less balanced, it's also harder to die because there are no inescapable 0->death combos. Yes, Fox's shine spikes are avoidable. CC. Therefore, Melee is in fact the better game. Balance isn't everything, guys.

Sorry about the lack of length, but I've written tons in this thread already.

 

[JJC]

Sif these 0 to death combo's are a regular occurance. I've only ever seen it done once on a good player and that was sheer luck that they got into that scenario. SSB64 has no "win" button or combo and minus Link and Samus all the characters are pretty much on the same level (if you don't go into semantics over things like CF or Kirby's ability to just down A as an over powered edge guard.

And I'd say that the random nature of some of the hit directions, coupled with even more DI in Melee makes setting up combo's more random than item drops on very high.

 

[Cronux]

Amen brother! I don't really like items all that much, but my friend can beat some a** with Mewtwo and Pichu w/o items. However he claims wavedashing isn't a glitch. I personally use it, but only because I feel it's necessary to keep up with them all. I don't like it no, but stuff like SHFFLing needs to stay.

P.S. Items can be crazy fun sometimes. All the stages except Icicle Mountain too.