To Those that Oppose the Gameplay Changes

[The Basement Dweller]

Well I don't know if it exactly a win, because he hasn't responded.

 

[i.eatnoobs]

That was a good read.
We'll i don't agree that tier lists are 'useless'. I personally think that it's just there so someone with less skill, can use a character who just simply, has better qualities to them. If 2 players of the same 'skill' and one, say, uses mewtwo, and the other uses marth. Chances are the player using marth will succeed. It's just that marth is quicker and has more knockback with some of his attacks. and i'm dissing low tiers or tiers that aren't 'high' Cause i personally dislike using marth, or sheik and the like

 

[The Basement Dweller]

I dislike when people say that if they are equal skill the higher one will win if they are of equal skill they are of equal skill and will tie.

 

[Miharu]

Uh-huh. Last time I heard, they voted on the list.

Their votes are influenced by what they think.

 

[The Basement Dweller]

You reallt can't prove that conclusively.

 

[Mr. Derp]

I'm not that upset about the aerial battles, I think the new game will be alot like melee, but the fastfallers will still be good on the ground and other character will be better in the air. BUT you SEEm to be a noob who is not yet very good at the advanced techs, I'd like you to work months and years learning the advanced techs and then see how you feel about them being removed. Unlike many, I think that a select few items should be kept on very low. I think items that "break the game" such as the healing items and cheap items (hammer, super scope) should be kept out of tournament play, but I could definitely see the fan, parasol, HR bat, etc. being kept on very low.

 

[Overswarm]

I've noticed a sort of thrend in this forum and in many other forums as well. The trend seems to be "Smash Bros. Brawl is getting 'slowed down' a little, so now it's not going to be good". People are complaining that, just because Nooby McNewguy can't Wavedash or hold his own against certain players, that doesn't mean the game should be changed in any way. They complain that the "slower aerial battles" are going to make the game too much like a DBZ fighter, and that it would ruin the unique aspect that Smash Bros. has.

I'd like to say that looking at the gameplay changes like this is starting to show that the Smash community is a bunch of elitist hypocrites.

The game is going to be slowed down to allow more players to play it. Why don't you people think this is a good idea? By not letting new members join the community, you'll slowly start killing it. Video games thrive on new players joining the fray constantly. If the game is slightly tweaked to remove Wavedashing, a glitch that shouldn't exist (even if the programmers noticed it and left it in, it doesn't mean they saw the full ramifications of leaving it there), then fine, so be it. I can't Wavedash around my group of friends because none of them can do it; they don't bother to practice it, and refuse to play against me if I actively use it, and as such, I find no need to practice it either. So Wavedashing gets removed? Good. Explain to me why it should be left it.

The new aerial battle system doesn't sound at all like it's being made to sound like. I fairly certain just having more interesting aerial battles will make the game more fun, and I sure didn't see it as a bad thing when watching Pit and MetaKnight do it in the trailer. What's your problem with this change? It honestly sounds like it might matches more fun, and it gives a whole new area for characters to excel/fail in, creating a new way to determine the tiers. Explain to me why this is a bad thing.

I remember during the initial preparation for this game, that everyone was complaining about Melee turning into "just another fighter". One such argument: If they added Supers into it, that's a bad thing. Well, they sure as heck added Supers to it, didn't they? And they did a fine job at it too, by making it 'optional' for all you 'pros' who don't like fighting with items and only play on certain levels. This is where your hypocrisy comes in: If you don't want this game to be just like any other fighter, why are you trying so hard to make it like one? You remove items. Why? Because they take away from the skill required to play? No, you take them out because they're "random" and it makes the game "unfair". Bull. Items make the game more frantic, and add the chaos factor that regular fighters don't have. You play only on a small selection of levels, and you ALWAYS get rid of the moving levels, such as Poke Floats. Why? Because they're "random" and it's makes the game "unfair". Bull. The moving levels make the game more fun by making the players have to concentrate on more than just their opponent, something that regular fighters don't have.

By cutting certain levels and removing items, you completely destroy certain characters' only good qualities. You can bet that Mewtwo would be a better character if items were allowed, because the moment he picked up a Paper Fan his opponent would be afraid to put up his shield. Pichu is Bottom Tier because you removed the only thing that gave him an advantage: items. Because PokeFloats and Big Blue are turned off, it's impossible for, say, Kirby to gain an advantage by using the environment as a weapon. By turning off the "unfair" levels and items, you make this game exactly like all the other fighters out there, only lo and behold, you have to do your own combos. But in removing levels and items, you also remove several combo opportunities.

Also, you claim that by changing the gameplay and certain characters, that people will have to learn the game all over again. Guess what? Did you play the original Smash Bros.? THen, did you play Melee? Well, answer me this: Didn't you have to relearn certain aspects of the game? yes? Good, then stop complaining. If they don't change anything going into Brawl, they're basically making Smash Bros. Melee 2, and that's not a good thing. You see, because then, Smash Bros. would become like other fighters, because all that's chaning is a few new characters, some new levels, and improved graphics and combos. By changing the gameplay slightly, they create a completely new experience. That's wherein you'll find fun: a new gaming experience for everyone, pro or newb. So you have to relearn Sheik because they toned her down? Good, maybe you'll find someone else you like. So Wavedashing got removed? Good, now everyone's on the same basic skill level, and taking advantage of a glitch won't make the difference between a pro and a newb: it will be actual skill with their character of choice.

So honestly, I'd like an intelligent discussion with this. Someone tell me the bad part about Sakurai-san's changes, in response to my own points. What's wrong with changing the game?

Halo 2.



Look, the whole "now EVERYONE can play" has been done. It sucks. It completely destroys competition (which is what makes the game last so long), and the skill gap becomes so small that everyone except the ultra elite are all in the same group.

Anyone that says Brawl should be more "for the masses", and the game should be slowed down, or things like wavedashing should be taken out, etc., just so some kid who plays the game once a week can handle Fox isn't looking at the history of competitive gaming.

The simpler, slower, and more accessible a game is to the masses, the worse the game is. That rule has never changed.

The goal is to find some sort of middle ground, where the game has an obvoiusly steep learning curve for competitive play, but a simple basis for the game that everyone can understand.

Melee was, for all intents and purposes, perfect for competitive play. They don't need to try to revolutionize it; they need to balance characters better, balance stages better, and that's about it.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

Overswarm, SSB64 is played competitively, just in a different way than Melee. SSB64 is all about the timing of the moves....or as my roomate says, he's the 64 player, whereas Melee is more of the combo's and mindgames and whatnot.

Brawl is not slowing down to a stupid level, it IS finding a middle ground, and that is between SSB64 and Melee. By finding that ground, you get the best of both games, idealistically timing and mindgames to create an even more competitive game!

For the record again, Brawl is slowing down, but nowhere near SSB64, so everyone just shutup about that.

 

[Miharu]

Overswarm, SSB64 is played competitively, just in a different way than Melee. SSB64 is all about the timing of the moves....or as my roomate says, he's the 64 player, whereas Melee is more of the combo's and mindgames and whatnot.

Brawl is not slowing down to a stupid level, it IS finding a middle ground, and that is between SSB64 and Melee. By finding that ground, you get the best of both games, idealistically timing and mindgames to create an even more competitive game!

For the record again, Brawl is slowing down, but nowhere near SSB64, so everyone just shutup about that.

The difference is, before SSB64, there was nothing. And slowing SSB64 down was unthinkable, so the logical way to proceed would be to speed the game up, due to faster hardware, etc., being available.

I don't see how you're able to differentiate between "timing the moves" and "combos and mindgames," since essentially, they comprise of, or describe, the same things. I would like to understand why SSBM needed to be slowed down, other than for the sole reason to please those who are technically unable to use Fox, Falco, and other technically heavy characters just because thier fingers can't move fast enough. There's essentially two types of Foxes: tech heavy, and mindgame heavy. Masashi would count as an example of the latter, and you could use KDJ and Mew2King as examples of the former. Point being, you don't have to be extremely techincally proficient with the game to play a certain character.

That being said, SSBM doesn't need to be slowed down. If you naturally can't handle fast characters, either don't play them, or devote a bit more of your time to the game.

Halo 2.



Look, the whole "now EVERYONE can play" has been done. It sucks. It completely destroys competition (which is what makes the game last so long), and the skill gap becomes so small that everyone except the ultra elite are all in the same group.

Anyone that says Brawl should be more "for the masses", and the game should be slowed down, or things like wavedashing should be taken out, etc., just so some kid who plays the game once a week can handle Fox isn't looking at the history of competitive gaming.

The simpler, slower, and more accessible a game is to the masses, the worse the game is. That rule has never changed.

The goal is to find some sort of middle ground, where the game has an obvoiusly steep learning curve for competitive play, but a simple basis for the game that everyone can understand.

Melee was, for all intents and purposes, perfect for competitive play. They don't need to try to revolutionize it; they need to balance characters better, balance stages better, and that's about it.

Very well put, you're pretty much saying what I'm trying to say. That's what Melee is at right now. Advanced techs add another dimension to the game, and speeds the game up way beyond what it would be if said techs weren't applied. However, SSBM is still a whole lot of fun even without advanced techs, due to it's innate nature of being easy to pick up and learn, so any newbie can start playing and having fun within a few minutes. But there's also a relatively steep learning curve so you have to put some effort in to be able to play competetively (The Halo 2 example was a nice one.)

 

[commonyoshi]

Their votes are influenced by what they think.

Think=opinion=I win the argument over Mars=Ahahahaha!

 

[Bassoonist]

You bring up some interesting points.

I certainly don't want the items gone. Since I don't play in tournaments, items make the game so much more fun for me.

Super Smash Bros. is unique in that it has items, lets keep it that way!

 

[commonyoshi]

Super Smash Bros. is unique in that it has items, lets keep it that way!

Oh yeah... I never really noticed that since Smash was my first fighting game. I agree.

Items should stay, even if you wont use them. Someone else might want to. We can take that into consideration with advanced tactics as well. Just because SOME stubborn people refuse to use them, doesn't mean those who want to should suffer.

 

[JJC]

Unless you have played SSB64 proffessionally you can't really comment on how "slowing down" a game takes away skill. In fact the faster the game (in Melee's case) and the more likely all the battles are just the result of random short hopping, l cancels and bairs, nairs etc. I've seen so many video's of pro Melee players and it just seems liek their jumping around waiting for the other player to screw up his pre-designed combo/mindgame so he can get a few hits in that ultimately result in nothing since the DI in Melee (imo) is borked and you can never get an arial combo going properly like you can in SSB64.

So again, to reitterate, slowed down gameplay doesn't mean less skill needed. It'll play as fast as YOU play it. If the speed of the game alone determined how fast you could play then Melee would be as slow as it was when you first started playing it.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

Unless you have played SSB64 proffessionally you can't really comment on how "slowing down" a game takes away skill. In fact the faster the game (in Melee's case) and the more likely all the battles are just the result of random short hopping, l cancels and bairs, nairs etc. I've seen so many video's of pro Melee players and it just seems liek their jumping around waiting for the other player to screw up his pre-designed combo/mindgame so he can get a few hits in that ultimately result in nothing since the DI in Melee (imo) is borked and you can never get an arial combo going properly like you can in SSB64.

So again, to reitterate, slowed down gameplay doesn't mean less skill needed. It'll play as fast as YOU play it. If the speed of the game alone determined how fast you could play then Melee would be as slow as it was when you first started playing it.

Hydro, that is what I meant by mind games for Melee and timing for 64. Also, I'm not a competitive 64 player, so I could not go into detail for you. And the middle ground you want IS Brawl, and that middle ground IS relating to the speed of the game.

Melee is not a middle ground, it is an extreme, how much faster can it be made? some, but not a lot. how much slower can 64 be made? some, but not a lot. Thus, extreme's, making Brawl with a speed in between the two the middle ground, perfect for everyone. And perfect for you as well.

Melee is so fast due to adv tech's, as you put it. So it shouldn't be a problem, because if l-cancelling is in, and gauranteed new and older adv tech's will be in, it will be fast enough for competitive play, heck probably close to melee. While casually close to 64 as well, perfect for my dorm room, which is split b etween Melee and 64 players.

 

[JJC]

Also forwarded from a post in another forum:

Saying items revolve completely around luck and that whoever gets the item first wins is like saying Wavedashing wins battles instantly (you guys should know what I'm talking about, your on Smashboards after all). My friend is literely an pwnerer with items. He can COMBO people with them (throwing them) and has dedicated lots of time to understanding the physics and power of each item and it's uses. Remove that element from play and not only do you have a very linear game but you remove something that actually takes skill to use. Hell even a noob with a hammer is still just that, a noob.

Having said that, whenever me and my mate play serious we take off items like Hammer and Starman and Hearts since we do want to have to actually use skill when it comes to items. But we keep them on. And not on very low. Medium. Because no matter what the item that drops, hell even a bomb. When it appears the whole game changes. What was once a hopeless situation can now turn in an instant. Someone could grab a bat and go for the one-hit-KO but that takes skill to actually land on a good opponent for example. Or maybe even planting a mine that you'll then procceed to combo an opponent into coupled with a u-air for the finish or something.

Items add depth and no matter how many times I hear it, bombs "randomly" falling ontop of charged smash attacks is one of the stupidest arguments against them ever. Seriously, that's happened to me maybe a total of 10 times from SSB64 through to Melee and I've played practically EVERY match with items, bombs included, on. And when it does happen, it's no more annoying than having the wind on Kirby's Dreamland push you off the level before you do a down smash which results in you fast falling to your death.

Just the way the cookie crumbles and if you can't deal with the random nature of items then you don't deserve to call yourselves pros.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Guys, why are you so intent on removing wavedashing?

Let's address one point... that casual players will find it cheap and be put off from the game because pros will be owning them with wavedashing.

First of all... why would pros be playing casual players, again? It's pretty much a waste of time, and it's not like the pro gets anything out of it. Personally, I hate playing against casual players, because it messes up my playing. You can be guaranteed that all the pros are not going to seek out casual players and own them with wavedashing. Competitive players will seek out other competitive players. It's that simple.

Second of all... how is wavedashing cheap? First of all, it's completely useless if you do not understand its application. Second of all.... it is merely a single tool from an extensive array of tools. It does not guarantee anything. In fact, I would advise people to NOT pursue wavedashing until they at least get a solid understanding of gameplay, tactics, etc. Wavedashing does NOT guarantee a win, and, in fact, plays a small role in determining the winner. The reason why players who wavedash tend to win over players who don't wavedash is that the players who don't wavedash are either a.) not as skilled (and thus haven't incorporated wavedashing into their game, yet), or b.) scrubs (and thus limiting one's own improvement in the game), or even c.) outside of the competitive scene.
Wavedashing, after all, is only one step up in the ladder out of many. You see, in order to become better as a player... there are many levels that lead higher and higher up. At the beginning... you must be able how to use basic functions. Then there are slightly more complicated stuff like smashing attacks (and i still haven't perfected synchronizing control stick with A, yet. >.<), and then there is more complicated stuff like rolling, spot dodging, air dodging. This goes on and on... till we reach the level before advanced techs come in. At this level, people should have at least a passable understanding for mindgames, can control their character adequately.. and are well versed in the moves in the game. THEN wavedashing (and other advanced techs) has an impact on them, because that is the next level up the ladder.

So, if one of your casual players learned how to wavedash, will he get better? Definitely not. Casual players wrong view advanced techs as god maneuvers.... They should understsand that wavedashing and other advanced techs are, I repeat, MORE OPTIONS.

Now for people who say it is a glitch.... It's a product of game mechanics. As people before me have pointed out, the developers were well aware of wavedashing, or, at the very least, wavelanding. Does this "glitch" affect the games of casual players? Nope. It only applies to games of more competitive players. Statements that wavedashing is "cheating" only reveals the incorrect views some casual players have.

Now, after all of this talk of why there isn'tany cause to remove wavedashing, let's talk a bit about why we should include it. The reason more competitive players wish to keep it in is because of how much more depth it adds too the game. Some of you... most of hte casual players, play the game as most people play it.... it's just a distraction for them. It has pleasant characters, sounds, and simple gameplay that can k eep them entertained for a couple hours.

But... you know what? If that was the only type of game ssbm coudl be, i would not be playing it right now. I wouldn't have been playing it for more than 4 hours straight. I wouldn't have bought a gamecube. I play ssbm because of how much depth it can have. Wavedashing is one aspect that adds to this depth. Removing it would be removing some of the depth of the game, and that would lessen the game.

I love complete and total BS like this. So, if I don't want to use adv. techs I am a scrub? I'm not worth fighting? Well, I've beaten several people that use your oh so powerful adv. techs. Stop complaining about WDing. If it is removed big whoop, if it stays then good. If you say that you are not going to buy Brawl because of a move then that is crazy, did you buy Melee the second you heard about WDing? Did anyone? Also, WDing doesn't make a game deep, it makes it a glitch. I honestly don't care if you use them or not but crying about it is stupid.

 

[Miharu]

Unless you have played SSB64 proffessionally you can't really comment on how "slowing down" a game takes away skill. In fact the faster the game (in Melee's case) and the more likely all the battles are just the result of random short hopping, l cancels and bairs, nairs etc. I've seen so many video's of pro Melee players and it just seems liek their jumping around waiting for the other player to screw up his pre-designed combo/mindgame so he can get a few hits in that ultimately result in nothing since the DI in Melee (imo) is borked and you can never get an arial combo going properly like you can in SSB64.

So again, to reitterate, slowed down gameplay doesn't mean less skill needed. It'll play as fast as YOU play it. If the speed of the game alone determined how fast you could play then Melee would be as slow as it was when you first started playing it.

Your first paragraph just comments on what you think the metagame in SSBM is, but you don't defend how it's different from SSB64. You may think that it's just random shffled aerials and etc, but no, it takes much more than that to be proficient at SSBM. And how can you say a "few hits that result in nothing." Please elaborate on that, since from what I'm gathering from your statement, a combo means nothing unless it results in a huge chunk of damage given, or the subsequent death of one's opponent. Contrary to what you're saying, many characters in SSBM have a nice aerial game that does revolve around combos: Falco, Marth, Jiggly, and a few others. I for one, don't like the DI in SSB64 since normal DI, from what I've heard, is equivalent to Smash DI in Melee, which in turn makes it comparatively harder to execute any DI at all.

I disagree what slowing down gameplay doesn't result in less skill needed. The game will have some limitations/restrictions, based on just how fast the game innately is. For example, SBBM is much more fast-paced than SSB64. But does Melee take more skill to play than SSB64? Somewhat. But I think a key difference here between the transition from SSB64 to SSBM and the transition from SSBM to SSBB is that SSB64 wasn't intentionally made "slower," or anything, since it was the first of the series, and therefore there wasn't much comparison offered at that time, since the game was pretty much one of a kind. Naturally, when SSBM was being created, Nintendo would want to take advantage of the GCN's more powerful hardware to make SSBM run more smoothly. With a better engine, players could also be allowed to do more with their character, which is probably most evident with DI. The problem with slowing down SSBB is, why would you do it? SSB64 was only slow because of the N64, and it couldn't go much faster. Additionally, there was less you could do at that slow speed, when compared to Melee, when much more can be done in the same amount of time. But SSBB doesn't need to be slowed down, so why would you do it? If it were to be slowed down, yes, the gameplay would be slower, but it would give more people to Smash DI, which would make it even easier to break out of any types of combos, and it would make certain infinites and combos easeir to pull off if they're kept in.

Hydro, that is what I meant by mind games for Melee and timing for 64. Also, I'm not a competitive 64 player, so I could not go into detail for you. And the middle ground you want IS Brawl, and that middle ground IS relating to the speed of the game.

Melee is not a middle ground, it is an extreme, how much faster can it be made? some, but not a lot. how much slower can 64 be made? some, but not a lot. Thus, extreme's, making Brawl with a speed in between the two the middle ground, perfect for everyone. And perfect for you as well.

I hold the view that most users on this board would say that Melee is perfectly fine the way it is. That being said, I don't believe that anyone wants Brawl to be sped up, since there are some things that already aren't humanly possible to perform at Melee's speed, but those are just broken tactics, and shouldn't really be considered during the course of this discussion.

Melee is so fast due to adv tech's, as you put it. So it shouldn't be a problem, because if l-cancelling is in, and gauranteed new and older adv tech's will be in, it will be fast enough for competitive play, heck probably close to melee. While casually close to 64 as well, perfect for my dorm room, which is split b etween Melee and 64 players.

Exactly. If it's slowed down, it will give a longer window of time to perform L-cancelling, ledgeteching, and the such. And the time frame for L-cancel is already pretty **** lenient (I believe it's around 20 frames or so, a 1/3 of a second, more than enough time for most, if not all people). I support leaving the speed of the game as it is right now, and not slowing it down; but the controls will most likely be made to be a little more lenient for those with less technical aptitude.

Having said that, whenever me and my mate play serious we take off items like Hammer and Starman and Hearts since we do want to have to actually use skill when it comes to items. But we keep them on. And not on very low. Medium. Because no matter what the item that drops, hell even a bomb. When it appears the whole game changes. What was once a hopeless situation can now turn in an instant. Someone could grab a bat and go for the one-hit-KO but that takes skill to actually land on a good opponent for example. Or maybe even planting a mine that you'll then procceed to combo an opponent into coupled with a u-air for the finish or something.

Nobody plays with healing items in a serious item match, I agree with that. And people do play item matches in Melee with exactly those settings. I find it quite enjoyable; it's a nice change from the usual gameplay of SSBM, since people tend to be more focused on where the items drop, and which one drops, etc. But I don't like item matches as true gauges of skill since a sheer stroke of luck can turn the match either way. Say it's 3 stock to 1 stock. The player with 1 stock can just get incredibly lucky, and have just the perfect items drop closer to them, and they'll end up winning because of that. The randomness factor is too large, so the SSBM pro community as a whole agreed to drop items from serious competetive play.

Items add depth and no matter how many times I hear it, bombs "randomly" falling ontop of charged smash attacks is one of the stupidest arguments against them ever. Seriously, that's happened to me maybe a total of 10 times from SSB64 through to Melee and I've played practically EVERY match with items, bombs included, on. And when it does happen, it's no more annoying than having the wind on Kirby's Dreamland push you off the level before you do a down smash which results in you fast falling to your death.

Just the way the cookie crumbles and if you can't deal with the random nature of items then you don't deserve to call yourselves pros.

It doesn't matter how many times it's happened to you. It matters that it has a chance of happening; and hypothetically, if items were on in MLG, and it was the last stock of the deciding game, how ****ing gay would it be if a bomb-omb dropped on your head at that last moment? The result would be that the winner probably wouldn't feel the it was a "true win," the loser would ***** and moan about how he was ****ed by one item, and the general community would argue over it for quite some time, and it'd never be settled. So to avoid all of that controversy, items are turned off in competetive play.

And if you didn't know, the wind on Dreamland is incapable of actually pushing one off the stage; it can only push you until you're teetering on the edge, but not over. Hah. That last sentence makes me laugh. You don't play competetive SSBM, and yet you're telling people who've been on the scene that they don't DESERVE to be pros? It's like telling professional tennis players that they don't deserve to be pro because they can't play with 3 balls in play, on the court, at the same time. It's completely off tangent, and doesn't relate to the said situation at all. We're discussing about the random effects of items on matches, not whether pros deserve to have that status based on how well they play with items or not.

 

[Frozenserpent]

I love complete and total BS like this. So, if I don't want to use adv. techs I am a scrub? I'm not worth fighting? Well, I've beaten several people that use your oh so powerful adv. techs. Stop complaining about WDing. If it is removed big whoop, if it stays then good. If you say that you are not going to buy Brawl because of a move then that is crazy, did you buy Melee the second you heard about WDing? Did anyone? Also, WDing doesn't make a game deep, it makes it a glitch. I honestly don't care if you use them or not but crying about it is stupid.

Yes.... if you refuse to not use "powerful adv. techs", then you are a scrub. i don't think it can really be argued otherwise. It's a very close match to "scrub".

And really... did you even read my post. -.-'. You really act like you just gave it a cursory glance and responded without even actually fully reading it.

 

[Overswarm]

I love complete and total BS like this. So, if I don't want to use adv. techs I am a scrub? I'm not worth fighting?

Yes, that sums it up.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

Not using "adv/ techs" is a style of play and a choice. do you play EXACTLY like your friend who uses the same character as you? Doesn't someone always win in mirror matches? Exactly, playstyles are different, so stop b*****ng. You chose to use adv. techs, others didn't.

God **** people, this is not a communist government, it's a video game, people play how they like. I already told you, throw your fancy techs at me, i'll still kick yo a**..... unless your Peach.....haven't quite develeoped a strategy against her yet.....or a plan of survival.........oh the horror.....

 

[shadydentist]

Refusing to use advanced techs not only says a lot about your skill, it also says a lot about your mindset. Like any other game or sport, you can play however you want, but if you ever want to get good, there are a couple of things you need to learn first.

 

[Overswarm]

Not using "adv/ techs" is a style of play and a choice. do you play EXACTLY like your friend who uses the same character as you? Doesn't someone always win in mirror matches? Exactly, playstyles are different, so stop b*****ng. You chose to use adv. techs, others didn't.

God **** people, this is not a communist government, it's a video game, people play how they like. I already told you, throw your fancy techs at me, i'll still kick yo a**..... unless your Peach.....haven't quite develeoped a strategy against her yet.....or a plan of survival.........oh the horror.....

See, this is the stage we call "Denial".

Maybe, just maybe, I'd consider it possible for someone to be above "decent" in terms of skill if I could look at the top 3, or 16, or 32, or hell, the top 250 smash players in the world and pick out ONE that didn't consistently use the advanced techniques. But no, there isn't one that refuses to use them. They all do.

Why? They make their game better.

Not using advanced techniques is not a "style of play". Being aggressive is a style, being passive is a style, camping is a style, being projectile heavy is a style, being a hit-and-run player is a style, being combo-heavy is a style....

But not using advanced techniques is just being stupid. It isn't an "opinion", they help your game. Choosing not to use them makes your game WORSE, and if you are someone that refuses to use advanced techniques, you're pretty much screwed unless you play Peach and accidently float cancel all the time.

Wavedashing, l-canceling, and all the other advanced techniques in this game don't make you good. Using them effectively makes you good.

There are other aspects to this game other than advanced technical skills, but mind games can't win it all the time for you.

Like the intelligent poster above me said, CHOOSING not to use the advanced techniques says a lot about your mindset. If you just CAN'T do it, that's a different story; you just need practice and dedication to master the techniques, and then some more practice to add it your gameplay. But if you are physically possible of doing it, if you have wavedashed, infinite shined, etc., but choose not to, you're what street fighter players call a "scrub", what halo players call a "bad kid" and what internet gamers call a "noob" or "nub". You are effectively choosing to be bad.

Want to prove me wrong? Send me a link where you get top 32 in an MLG tournament.

 

[Mann]

Why was this made in the first place? Each person has their own reasons why what should be what, how things should be done, why things should be kept, and what should be ridden of.

Too much ego going on.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

See, this is the stage we call "Denial".

Maybe, just maybe, I'd consider it possible for someone to be above "decent" in terms of skill if I could look at the top 3, or 16, or 32, or hell, the top 250 smash players in the world and pick out ONE that didn't consistently use the advanced techniques. But no, there isn't one that refuses to use them. They all do.

Why? They make their game better.

Not using advanced techniques is not a "style of play". Being aggressive is a style, being passive is a style, camping is a style, being projectile heavy is a style, being a hit-and-run player is a style, being combo-heavy is a style....

But not using advanced techniques is just being stupid. It isn't an "opinion", they help your game. Choosing not to use them makes your game WORSE, and if you are someone that refuses to use advanced techniques, you're pretty much screwed unless you play Peach and accidently float cancel all the time.

Wavedashing, l-canceling, and all the other advanced techniques in this game don't make you good. Using them effectively makes you good.

There are other aspects to this game other than advanced technical skills, but mind games can't win it all the time for you.

Like the intelligent poster above me said, CHOOSING not to use the advanced techniques says a lot about your mindset. If you just CAN'T do it, that's a different story; you just need practice and dedication to master the techniques, and then some more practice to add it your gameplay. But if you are physically possible of doing it, if you have wavedashed, infinite shined, etc., but choose not to, you're what street fighter players call a "scrub", what halo players call a "bad kid" and what internet gamers call a "noob" or "nub". You are effectively choosing to be bad.

Want to prove me wrong? Send me a link where you get top 32 in an MLG tournament.

Oh really? Sorry I am not in your , invincible club of adv. techniques. So every time I beat , pro level adv. tech users, I still don't get the right to my win? I may not use adv. techs but I am far from being a push over. I've defeated almost everyone that has ever challenged me. My cousins uses adv. techs and a speed style with Falco and I beat him every time. Saying that I need adv techs to win a match and be pro level is complete and total opinion. I'm talking, from experience, that I have beaten you invincible advanced players. I never said get rid of adv. techs, keep them. We'll see who is better when Brawl comes out.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

I love hypocracy, don't you guys? You should, because of how much of it you spew.

First, when we discuss the tech's themsleves, you get all defensive and says using them doesn't make you win instantly.

Then we discuss the players using them. Now you're saying you will use if you don't use them.

Nicely done Uncle Kenny. Glad I have some solid support, as I haven't been to any tourny's outside of campus tourny's, although there are plenty of competitive people there as well.

So what's it going to be guys, adv. tech's = win or no? Because your two arguements contradict each other.


<-- ~Half A Grand!~
Woot!

 

[ArAnPrO4EvEr]

all things that were on SSB are on SSBM, they only changed some characters speed weight, ad items, stages, the FOWARD-B, I am absolutly sure that in SSBB the gameplay will be the same, they will add new things not remove them.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

I'm trying to remain neutral on the whole subject. WDing is just one ability nothing more nothing less. People that complain that they lost due to WDing have no skill and people who brag that they won due to WDing are high. Just because I don't WD doesn't mean I have no skill and just because I might lose to someone that uses WDing once in a while doesn't mean I am going to complain and say WDing is a cheat or glitch. It just means they are more skillful regardless of WDing or not. I have defeated several WDers so I know I am not losing because I can't WD.

 

[Zephyr]

Oh really? Sorry I am not in your , invincible club of adv. techniques. So every time I beat , pro level adv. tech users, I still don't get the right to my win? I may not use adv. techs but I am far from being a push over. I've defeated almost everyone that has ever challenged me. My cousins uses adv. techs and a speed style with Falco and I beat him every time. Saying that I need adv techs to win a match and be pro level is complete and total opinion. I'm talking, from experience, that I have beaten you invincible advanced players. I never said get rid of adv. techs, keep them. We'll see who is better when Brawl comes out.

I really like this one. I've been following this thread for a while, but all the stuff I've seen is stuff that's been said over and over by both sides. This one's new, at least to me. Let me tell you why it's not true.

When did anyone say that advanced techniques made one invincible? Oh wait, we didn't! Funny thing, isn't it? Hardly any advanced technique users are pros, they may be good, but pro status is reserved for the best of the best. You may not be a pushover, but I doubt you've played very many good players, either. You say that you beat your cousin every time you play him, but there's a little thing in this community that I like to call "playstyle". Regardless of your own thoughts on the matter, everyone has ther own playstyle, including your cousin. It's extremely likely that you simply got used to the way he plays, or else he just sucks. For example, I beat my crew captain, Vietgamer1021, all the time, yet he places far better than I in tournaments. What does that say? I play him often enough to know his style with each of his characters, so I know what he's going to do next. Therefore, I can defeat him easily, but others have a great deal of trouble against his Bombsoldier-ish ways. No one ever said that you need advanced techniques to win a match, but I'd love to see you make pro status without them. Seriously, no sarcasm, I would applaud that, because it would be almost impossible to achieve something that difficult. I'm glad to see that you have at least some sense, though, when you say that it should keep advanced techs. If Sakurai takes them away, the tech users are unhappy, the scrubs are happy because of their nonsense opinions on the matter, and casual players are oblivious. If they keep them, the tech users are happy, the scrubs are happy just to spite the tech users, and casual players once again are oblivious. Which do you think is the better path? I'd love to play you when Brawl comes out, but unfortunately for you it's not going to be out for quite a while. I can wait, because I already know that I'm good at Melee, but can you wait to prove yourself at a game which might not even turn out the way you're expecting it to?

I'm done with this.

 

[Ryuuseiken Marth]

One thing that definitely needs improvement in SSBB is DI. When I was playing against the Fighting Polygon team on hard mode using Pikachu, a long time ago; Pikachu's damage was at the near 150-200 damage range, and I kept on constantly DI-ing in the opposite direction during the freeze frames to survive and win the match. In Melee, however, DI-ing is even harder to pull off, due to the increased speed and lack of freezeframes, which results in a split-second to DI, and even then, there's still not enough control other than direction.

 

[Overswarm]

Oh really? Sorry I am not in your , invincible club of adv. techniques. So every time I beat , pro level adv. tech users, I still don't get the right to my win? I may not use adv. techs but I am far from being a push over. I've defeated almost everyone that has ever challenged me. My cousins uses adv. techs and a speed style with Falco and I beat him every time. Saying that I need adv techs to win a match and be pro level is complete and total opinion. I'm talking, from experience, that I have beaten you invincible advanced players. I never said get rid of adv. techs, keep them. We'll see who is better when Brawl comes out.

Who's your cousin?

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

I really like this one. I've been following this thread for a while, but all the stuff I've seen is stuff that's been said over and over by both sides. This one's new, at least to me. Let me tell you why it's not true.

When did anyone say that advanced techniques made one invincible? Oh wait, we didn't! Funny thing, isn't it? Hardly any advanced technique users are pros, they may be good, but pro status is reserved for the best of the best. You may not be a pushover, but I doubt you've played very many good players, either. You say that you beat your cousin every time you play him, but there's a little thing in this community that I like to call "playstyle". Regardless of your own thoughts on the matter, everyone has ther own playstyle, including your cousin. It's extremely likely that you simply got used to the way he plays, or else he just sucks. For example, I beat my crew captain, Vietgamer1021, all the time, yet he places far better than I in tournaments. What does that say? I play him often enough to know his style with each of his characters, so I know what he's going to do next. Therefore, I can defeat him easily, but others have a great deal of trouble against his Bombsoldier-ish ways. No one ever said that you need advanced techniques to win a match, but I'd love to see you make pro status without them. Seriously, no sarcasm, I would applaud that, because it would be almost impossible to achieve something that difficult. I'm glad to see that you have at least some sense, though, when you say that it should keep advanced techs. If Sakurai takes them away, the tech users are unhappy, the scrubs are happy because of their nonsense opinions on the matter, and casual players are oblivious. If they keep them, the tech users are happy, the scrubs are happy just to spite the tech users, and casual players once again are oblivious. Which do you think is the better path? I'd love to play you when Brawl comes out, but unfortunately for you it's not going to be out for quite a while. I can wait, because I already know that I'm good at Melee, but can you wait to prove yourself at a game which might not even turn out the way you're expecting it to?

I'm done with this.

The reason I said "invincible" is because jerks like you make it out to sound that way. The way you talk, you make it sound like you are superior to me in every single way. I have played pro-level adv. tech users and I have beaten them as well. As for my cousin comment, think about this, he has gotten used to my style as well, so even with adv. techs and a quick style and an awesome player he still loses to me. Why? Because I am more skillfull. I never said that WD was useless, but I am saying that it doesn't define one's skill level and you need to stop acting like having adv. techs means you are superior to everyone that doesn't. Maybe you are better then me, maybe not, but cockyness will get you no where. I look foward to our match.

 

[Eggm]

All I have to say is, all you guys who want WD out act like it stops you from making your own items tournys, or you make it seem like it CHANGES THE GAME like we go in a edit the uneditable disc into making it so items are always off and certain stages are banned, if you don't want to play competivley but still have tournies (although i don't see the point since it will depend on luck not skill for the winner) you are free to do that although unless you call it a smashfest for fun i dobut many will show up since who wants to pay money to play a tourny that the winner is lucK? Anyways the point i'm trying to make is WDing and advanced techniques just add to the game for competitiive players, and casual for fun gamers which I myself still do just for fun with friends when we are bored of competition do, can also enjoy..

 

[Zephyr]

All I have to say is, all you guys who want WD out act like it stops you from making your own items tournys, or you make it seem like it CHANGES THE GAME like we go in a edit the uneditable disc into making it so items are always off and certain stages are banned, if you don't want to play competivley but still have tournies (although i don't see the point since it will depend on luck not skill for the winner) you are free to do that although unless you call it a smashfest for fun i dobut many will show up since who wants to pay money to play a tourny that the winner is lucK? Anyways the point i'm trying to make is WDing and advanced techniques just add to the game for competitiive players, and casual for fun gamers which I myself still do just for fun with friends when we are bored of competition do, can also enjoy..

QFT

This kid is happy the way he smashes. I'm happy the way I smash because I ignore the fact that there are items, and push myself to be better without them. Are you happy the way you smash? Like, actually content? Cuz that's all that really matters.

 

[Overswarm]

The reason I said "invincible" is because jerks like you make it out to sound that way. The way you talk, you make it sound like you are superior to me in every single way. I have played pro-level adv. tech users and I have beaten them as well. As for my cousin comment, think about this, he has gotten used to my style as well, so even with adv. techs and a quick style and an awesome player he still loses to me. Why? Because I am more skillfull. I never said that WD was useless, but I am saying that it doesn't define one's skill level and you need to stop acting like having adv. techs means you are superior to everyone that doesn't. Maybe you are better then me, maybe not, but cockyness will get you no where. I look foward to our match.

We are superior. At least in terms of smash skill. There's a very slight chance you could have better mindgames than some of the above-average smashers that use advanced techniques, but that is highly doubtful. Advanced techniques such as wavedashing and l-canceling open up doors for several new mindgames, approaches, and combos.

I'm not sure what character you play, but unless it is shiek, peach, or jigglypuff you don't have much of an option in competitive play. You HAVE to use advanced techniques. It isn't opinion, it is fact. You can't play halo 2 competitively without BXRing, grenade reloading, sweep shooting, etc., you can't play basketball competitively without doing lay-ups, or without knowing unique and special ways to set up your team, and you can NOT play smash competitively without using the advanced techniques.

There are three types of people that don't use advanced techniques.

Those who can't
Those who don't care
Those who are too prideful

Those who can't are easy to deal with. They just need practice, unless they physically don't have hands or something.

Those who don't care don't matter. They aren't interested in competitive gaming, and are content to go down the scrub road and using items, playing on Brinstar Depths, and adding in two computers (level 5 and 9) when they only have a friend over. Good for them, but they aren't competitive gamers, and therefore don't matter in any way, shape, or form to competitive gaming.

Those who are too prideful (i.e., anyone who wants, claims, or believes to play competitively but doesn't use advanced techniques even though they are physically capable) are the ones that generally scream about it. The group of item-playing CPU FFA "I don't care" kids will make a ruckus every once in a while when a competitive gamer comes in and ruins their fun by beating them soundly, but for the most part it is just the prideful ones.

My statement to the prideful ones is always the same.

Your friends, your relatives, your middle/high school tournaments, your local tournaments, all of them have a 99% chance of being noobs.

That isn't opinion, it has been proven over and over again. Go to a local tournament, and ask people where they are from, and then record their placings. The top 16 will have maybe 2 that are from your "local" area; everyone else will have driven at least 30 minutes or more because they are competitive smashers looking for competition. All of the locals that stop by "because it is close" are just looking to play smash. Check it out, seriously.

Knowing that your friends are more than likely garbage when placed into a pool of pro players, or even semi-pro players, I, and everyone else that has any competitive experience at all, will know that if your claim of being good because you consistently beat your "brother/father/mother/sister/cousin/uncle/aunt/neighbor/classmate/roommate/grandpa" is in all actuality you screaming "I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO PLAY COMPETITIVELY".

For perspective, re-read what you are saying, and replace smash with "arm wrestling", or "basketball", or even another video game. Would the NBA care if you beat a family member or friend consistently when you don't even mention their name? Would anyone?

By now you should (if you are still actively reading, and not just trying to find something to complain about because you are upset at this turn of events) be realizing that you don't have a leg to stand on as far as every other competitive smasher in the world is concerned. At best, from a very giving and polite smasher, you might get a "he might be good...".

So from here you have two options.

1. Tell us who your friend is. Tell us the tournamnets he has won, what tournaments he has placed well at, etc. Saying "my friend beat ken once" doesn't say anything either, especially without proof. I've beaten KoreanDJ's shiek once, but anyone with half a brain could realize that KoreanDJ is 100x better than me. They can realize that Ken is still better than your friend, and the game is more than likely a fluke.

I have never, in my entire life of a gamer, for ANY GAME EVER (and I've played a lot competitively) have had a prideful gamer give me the name of someone I recognize. Not once. The few that have given me names have shown tournament winnings or top 16 placings in local tournaments with 18 entrants, or tournaments that I later find start with SMGs (halo) or have star rods and beam swords on and every game is on Final Destination (Smash).

So, odds are against you here, and you are probably going to ignore number 2 even though it is your only remaining option.

2. Go to a tournament. A real one. If you are on the East coast, go to the tournaments that the big East coast players go to. Ditto with the west coast. Happen to be in the midwest? Go to one of the midwest tournaments, they even have a circuit now. See how well you do. Don't get discouraged if you go out without even getting top 32; a lot of players don't do that well, even good ones, just by random chance. Just see how well you do, see who beats you, and ask why. Then, calmly sit down with a Gamecube (or Wii, now) and ask yourself this:

"If I used the advanced techniques, would it improve my game?"

The answer is yes.

"Is there any reason why I shouldn't use the advanced techniques?"

Other than BS reasons that don't make any sense, there isn't an answer.




You want to say "you guys are jerks" or that we are "elitist"? Go for it. We are better than you, at least as far as smash is concerned. That isn't something to be ashamed of, I'm certainly not someone that everyone speaks of as "pro". Don't get riled up. You don't even have to reply to this. Just realize that an advanced technique is just another move in the game.

If you aren't going to wavedash, you are limiting yourself.
If you aren't going to l-cancel, you are limiting yourself.
If you aren't going to short hop, you are limiting yourself.
If you aren't going to use the c-stick, you are limiting yourself.
If you aren't going to dash dance, you are limiting yourself.
If you aren't going to jump, you are limiting yourself.

The only difference between the techniques I listed above is that some of them are harder to accomplish. That's why they are "advanced". They're hard to do. They take practice. If you are going to play competitively and use your hard-earned money to enter tournaments, for pete's sake, you owe it to yourself to play to the best of your ability at all times and preparing yourself to the fullest.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

I am content with my playstyle. But insulting the way I play and calling me a scrub doesn't make you a better person, it makes you a jerk. I'm willing to admit people are better then me, why is it so hard to admit that some people who use the default style and are pro can be better then adv. tech users that are pro? Why should I have to go out of my way to prove I am pro level just because I don't use adv. techs. You would rather fight someone who isn't very skillfull but knows how to WD then me?

Edit: You are superior to someone you don't even know? Wow, I didn't notice that. I mean, we have never had a match but since you have adv. techs you must be superior to me. There is zero chance that I could ever beat you ever. My skill level is invisible in the wake of your awesome advanced power. Your overly cocky. Label me as you please, but I know how good I am whereas you don't know jack about my skill level.

Edit 2: God I wish I could record just one of my matches. I have beaten pro level adv. tech users but without proof you are free to draw assumptions about me and my skill level and it makes me sick. If only I could post a vid or knew how to. But since I don't have one, you still have the ability to call me a scrub. I don't use WD, true, but I do use some adv. techs. I'm saying don't judge based on how many techs you know I am saying base it on skill. God, why can't I just post one vid....

 

[Zephyr]

Obvious victimization complexes much? +rep for Overswarm's post. I'm not going to bother to argue against someone who's just lashing out. But, just to say, I do love the way you didn't evenrespond to any of Overswarm's arguements. Are you just too prideful to say you lost? I don't know how you ever became a smash debater with reasoning like yours.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Obvious victimization complexes much? +rep for Overswarm's post. I'm not going to bother to argue against someone who's just lashing out. But, just to say, I do love the way you didn't evenrespond to any of Overswarm's arguements. Are you just too prideful to say you lost? I don't know how you ever became a smash debater with reasoning like yours.

It is hard to stay calm when everyone acts cocky. You say I am being prideful, you are the guys being cocky and won't admit that a person's skill level not adv. techs is what makes that person a good player. I didn't respond to any of his posts because it wasn't there when I made mine. I have to read over it real quick, although I can pretty much expect to find alot of cockiness in it...

Edit: I'll wait for a reply before I respond to Overswarm's post, as he will no doubt go on another "I'm superior, you suck" rant again in a second. Maybe add in the, your a scrub or n00b insult and -rep me. Go for it. And do it quickly so I can respond to your post. And what do you know, I found cockiness in his post, We are better then you. Smooth, smooth. Insults won't get you any politness in return so don't act like me insulting you is against any moral rules or anything.

 

[Zephyr]

It is hard to stay calm when everyone acts cocky. You say I am being prideful, you are the guys being cocky and won't admit that a person's skill level not adv. techs is what makes that person a good player. I didn't respond to any of his posts because it wasn't there when I made mine. I have to read over it real quick, although I can pretty much expect to find alot of cockiness in it...

Read Overswarm's post. You'll find a lot of wisdom there, and not a bit of cockiness. And how can you call us cocky if you don't even read our posts!?

EDIT: Get a Firewire cable and record some matches through a VCR. It's what I do.

EDIT2: However, his post was very insightful and intelligent, and IMHO accurate as well. You should try reading ALL of it, as it might open up some windows for you.

EDIT3: Hold on one second, you don't use WD, but you do use other advanced techniques? I don't remember seeing that before, that would drastically change my attitude toward you. WD isn't necessary to win, a prime example would be Fluteboy, he uses WD and, quite plainly, he sucks balls at this game. But if you do other things like L-Cancel, than yes, I would believe you when you say that you are skilled. The way you approached this matter and your tone made me belive that you didn't use any advanced techs at all.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

We are superior. At least in terms of smash skill. There's a very slight chance you could have better mindgames than some of the above-average smashers that use advanced techniques, but that is highly doubtful. Advanced techniques such as wavedashing and l-canceling open up doors for several new mindgames, approaches, and combos.

What a kind and polite way to start an argument, "we are superior" yeah that really got me interested in reading the rest of your post. Anyway, I know that adv. techs are all good and helpfull and whatever, but they don't measure your skill. If you have played against adv. tech users long enough, then you will have less of a chance to fall into there so called traps or whatever that WD is intended for. It makes you faster as well, sure, but only by so much. Since there are not that many pro level default users (yeah I said it) you will not know how the few of us train. Instead of straining ourselves learning them we strain ourselves countering them (it is possible).

I'm not sure what character you play, but unless it is shiek, peach, or jigglypuff you don't have much of an option in competitive play. You HAVE to use advanced techniques. It isn't opinion, it is fact. You can't play halo 2 competitively without BXRing, grenade reloading, sweep shooting, etc., you can't play basketball competitively without doing lay-ups, or without knowing unique and special ways to set up your team, and you can NOT play smash competitively without using the advanced techniques.

I thought this was Smash, not Halo 2? I main Mario by the way. I would say I do have more options, the world of competitive Smash doesn't revolve around adv. techs. It revolves around a player trying to proove their skill level (the most common of those people are adv. tech users). Just because they are the ones that usually play the tourneys doesn't mean they are the only ones.

There are three types of people that don't use advanced techniques.

Those who can't
Those who don't care
Those who are too prideful

Oh, so everything you say is fact? Can't argue with that...

Those who can't are easy to deal with. They just need practice, unless they physically don't have hands or something.

This argument doesn't concern me.

Those who don't care don't matter. They aren't interested in competitive gaming, and are content to go down the scrub road and using items, playing on Brinstar Depths, and adding in two computers (level 5 and 9) when they only have a friend over. Good for them, but they aren't competitive gamers, and therefore don't matter in any way, shape, or form to competitive gaming.

Neither does this one.

Those who are too prideful (i.e., anyone who wants, claims, or believes to play competitively but doesn't use advanced techniques even though they are physically capable) are the ones that generally scream about it. The group of item-playing CPU FFA "I don't care" kids will make a ruckus every once in a while when a competitive gamer comes in and ruins their fun by beating them soundly, but for the most part it is just the prideful ones.

Don't really see your point. I admit that some people beat me and never blame it on adv. techs. Nor am I prideful. But as I respect your style, I expect you to do the same.

My statement to the prideful ones is always the same.

Your friends, your relatives, your middle/high school tournaments, your local tournaments, all of them have a 99% chance of being noobs.

So the prideful scrubs like me only play n00bs? Makes sense...

That isn't opinion, it has been proven over and over again. Go to a local tournament, and ask people where they are from, and then record their placings. The top 16 will have maybe 2 that are from your "local" area; everyone else will have driven at least 30 minutes or more because they are competitive smashers looking for competition. All of the locals that stop by "because it is close" are just looking to play smash. Check it out, seriously.

I've been to tourneys, beat adv. tech using pros, and I don't have any proof. So I can't really say anything.... I doubt you'll believe me right?

Knowing that your friends are more than likely garbage when placed into a pool of pro players, or even semi-pro players, I, and everyone else that has any competitive experience at all, will know that if your claim of being good because you consistently beat your "brother/father/mother/sister/cousin/uncle/aunt/neighbor/classmate/roommate/grandpa" is in all actuality you screaming "I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO PLAY COMPETITIVELY".

Yeah they all suck, but my cousin plays in tourneys and uses adv. techs. Guess you don't care though.

For perspective, re-read what you are saying, and replace smash with "arm wrestling", or "basketball", or even another video game. Would the NBA care if you beat a family member or friend consistently when you don't even mention their name? Would anyone?

Meh. I'll give you that one.

By now you should (if you are still actively reading, and not just trying to find something to complain about because you are upset at this turn of events) be realizing that you don't have a leg to stand on as far as every other competitive smasher in the world is concerned. At best, from a very giving and polite smasher, you might get a "he might be good...".

Yep. My skill level is so completely pathetic without techs that I must be lowered to the "have pity on him" standards. Nice job.

So from here you have two options.

1. Tell us who your friend is. Tell us the tournamnets he has won, what tournaments he has placed well at, etc. Saying "my friend beat ken once" doesn't say anything either, especially without proof. I've beaten KoreanDJ's shiek once, but anyone with half a brain could realize that KoreanDJ is 100x better than me. They can realize that Ken is still better than your friend, and the game is more than likely a fluke.

I have never, in my entire life of a gamer, for ANY GAME EVER (and I've played a lot competitively) have had a prideful gamer give me the name of someone I recognize. Not once. The few that have given me names have shown tournament winnings or top 16 placings in local tournaments with 18 entrants, or tournaments that I later find start with SMGs (halo) or have star rods and beam swords on and every game is on Final Destination (Smash).

Meh. Who I beat doesn't matter, you are right on that one.

So, odds are against you here, and you are probably going to ignore number 2 even though it is your only remaining option.

2. Go to a tournament. A real one. If you are on the East coast, go to the tournaments that the big East coast players go to. Ditto with the west coast. Happen to be in the midwest? Go to one of the midwest tournaments, they even have a circuit now. See how well you do. Don't get discouraged if you go out without even getting top 32; a lot of players don't do that well, even good ones, just by random chance. Just see how well you do, see who beats you, and ask why. Then, calmly sit down with a Gamecube (or Wii, now) and ask yourself this:

"If I used the advanced techniques, would it improve my game?"

The answer is yes.

"Is there any reason why I shouldn't use the advanced techniques?"

Other than BS reasons that don't make any sense, there isn't an answer.

I have gone to tourneys, I have won matches and scored high ranks. You are under the impression that if I go to a tourney I will be defeated and then devasted to the point of wanting to learn adv. techs. For a guy who doesn't know me, you sure do know alot about me.

You want to say "you guys are jerks" or that we are "elitist"? Go for it. We are better than you, at least as far as smash is concerned. That isn't something to be ashamed of, I'm certainly not someone that everyone speaks of as "pro". Don't get riled up. You don't even have to reply to this. Just realize that an advanced technique is just another move in the game.

The fact that it is just another move in the game automatically means that it doesn't define anything. That was contradiction. Saying you are superior then turning around and saying it is just another move.

If you aren't going to wavedash, you are limiting yourself.
If you aren't going to l-cancel, you are limiting yourself.
If you aren't going to short hop, you are limiting yourself.
If you aren't going to use the c-stick, you are limiting yourself.
If you aren't going to dash dance, you are limiting yourself.
If you aren't going to jump, you are limiting yourself.

I don't WD.
I do l-cancel.
I do short hop.
Screw the c-stick (my cousin is close to my skill level and uses it, although you proabably don't care)
I do dash dance.
Since when was jumping advanced? You think I am just standing there or something?

The only difference between the techniques I listed above is that some of them are harder to accomplish. That's why they are "advanced". They're hard to do. They take practice. If you are going to play competitively and use your hard-earned money to enter tournaments, for pete's sake, you owe it to yourself to play to the best of your ability at all times and preparing yourself to the fullest.

All of those were simple techniques aside from WD. None of them were advanced. (Maybe l-canceling). Man, it is really hard to make counterpoints when the entire argument is based on opinion...

Edit: I am not defending people who don't use adv. techs. I am defending the people that are skillfull and use whatever style they please. By the way Goldenmuffin, what is a firewire cable?

 

[Zephyr]

OK, due to some things I found out after posting, I've changed my opinion on the matter. But Kenny, I really wish you would've said that you went to tournies and placed from the beginning. I think Overswarm's response and mine would have been much different in flavor and context.

His last example, that of the techniques, was just there to make a point. He wasn't saying that they were all advanced, he was saying that they were all techniques that good people tend to use.

A Firewire cable is something that's used to connect your VCR to your computer and transfer the material in the tape to the computer. I think it also works for video cameras, but I'm not sure. I'm not the video expert in my crew, I just arrange everything. I'm not sure how much it costs, but I think you can get it at Radio Shack or something. Try Googling it and see what you get. Good Luck, my faith in your debating abilities is restored!