To Those that Oppose the Gameplay Changes

[Venom Dream]

I agree with the Topic Creator almost completely. If you want Melee, then play Melee - this is a different game and it's going to play differently.

But I wouldn't bet on Wave-Dashing being removed. Ever play a racing game? Snaking has been around for ages, and it's not going away. Wave Dashing is the SSB equivilant.

 

[ArichTheViking]

Uhhh... I'm pretty sure he confirmed on the Dojo he would not remove any characters.

You are exactly wrong. He confirmed he WOULD remove characters- definitely.

McFox, great post back there...

 

[Mr.C]

EDIT: Mr.C: Waiiiit a sec. So if you could make it so that a random item appearing couldn't hurt you withing, say, the first second of it's appearance (so that a random container won't kill you unless you try), you'd be ok with items in tournements?

Khorsan plain and simple tournements are about proveing how much skill you have, as a person, competing to win money....lots of money...

Items do not show skill, so no.

6-Fun factor:
(I'll be simple and clean on this) Fun for The-Casual = been saved by luck at the last moment, Not-Fun for the Casual = been hopelessly beat up by Pros(Dedicated ppl that really appriciates the game, that's a Pro). Fun for The-Pros = overcome challanges as they come(Adaptation), Not-Fun for The-Pros = all efforts lost to a unchangeable Fact that decides for them no matter there Skills(Luck).

indeed my friend indeed.

 

[Sporkman]

It's only a sequel to the best game for GC ever

Easy on the wine Charlotte, Resident Evil 4 was quite the dish..

Someone said "If aint broke then there's no need to repair it" now just what the hell is wrong with Smash Bros. Melee?

Only the fact it is actually one of the most broken games ever and you actively support that unwittingly because the whole idea that the game actually has a tier list is just a pure dead give away.

I went right ahead and skipped pages 2-5 and have completely forgotten what this thread is about, but i will say this:

Pichu was only put in cause they were struggling for characters and hes similar to pikachu so they could do a clone, why oh why they just didnt make meowth is completely and utterly beyond me, If people dont want you to wave dash in a match tell them to shove it up there tight a$$ cause quite frankly no-one gives a s***, they care about it so much they can learn to do it themselves, i learnt how to do it and from that my cousin learnt. How are items not skillful? you gotta know how to use the god**** things, just as good for mind games aswell, if someone picks up that baseball bat is he gonna hold on to it or just throw right at ya, i dont really care. If a tourney has rules you dont like dont attend it, make your god**** social gathering, but hell janine dont count on anyone turning up. Items and moving stages are always gonna be in Smash bros. cause believe it or not, more people play with items then people who dont, they just dont care so much as to debate it on a forum full of people theyre probably never going to meet. Now be it because they like items, think items make it more fun or simply just dont know how to turn them off there are more casual gamers then people who go around saying "look what i did amy a double bair to nair dair slap me silly doc combo". After a year of playing Brawl and having found most of its glitches and what not hardly anyone is gonna care what Melee was like, Youll stop licking the behind of the old game cause everyone else is playing the new one. Arguments of whether wavedashing should be in the next game or not are infinitly pointless, its not even up to you, over 50% of people who play this game have probably never even heard the phrase "wavedash".

Sorry, but i watched alot of Scrubs this morning.

 

[Mr.C]

noobcake, tourneys dont use items...no johns...

Smash is not broken its actually very balanced. Some characters are mechanically worse yes, but that doesnt mean they cant win.

 

[Sporkman]

noobcake, tourneys dont use items...no johns...

Smash is not broken its actually very balanced. Some characters are mechanically worse yes, but that doesnt mean they cant win.

Word up Nancy, youve just done what I said about 40 minutes ago:

and you actively support that unwittingly

Smash is not broken its actually very balanced. Some characters are mechanically worse yes

Right there. Those two lines you said are incredibly contradictory, "very balanced" and "mechanically worse", what are you getting at Cherie? Of course you can win with those characters, if you couldnt why would they be there?! "Mechanically worse" is a pure indication of imbalance. Are you familiar with A => B ? it means A implies B. If A = Some characters are better then others, so much so, that a generally accepted list of best to worst can be made, and B = The game is balanced, does A => B? Dont even try answering cause im gonna go right ahead and tell ya, no it doesnt.

I didnt say tourneys use items. Some do infact, but some also dont, so where does me being a, as you so delicately put, "noobcake" come into it? Why are you calling me a john? what am i complaining about? what am i bemoaning? Im lamenting the fact that ive been involved in such a topic. Sure as its hypocritical as i couldve just not posted but once i opened the thread, i felt incoporated and i just couldnt get out so i posted on this pointless topic. I told you get on with your lives not that i dont like the this or that, i couldnt give a dámn, i'm more interested in how much a Wii + Brawl is gonna set me back, I'm more interested in whether the hot chick is gonna wear that delightful mini skirt again, to be honest im more interested in whether anyone would notice if i knocked 5cm off one lock of my hair.

 

[Magik0722]

Wow, I've never seen so much complaining and arguing about a game that is not even close to coming out yet. . . . . its actually quite entertaining. Lol

I've got a fantastic idea, how about we all just wait until the game comes out and then you can complain if the game is good or not heh?

Is it lonely up there on your pedastal?




you see the point is darklink... is that the great thing about meele is that you can choose how to play.. either you can play with items and just not WD or you can WD and not play with items, heck if u want play with items and WD or even not play w/ items and not WD. All in all, play with what best fits your ways (If your the host that is), and dont try to change everyone elses.

 

[Venom Dream]

SSBM is not a very balanced game. If you want a balanced game, go play Guilty Gear XX - it's the standard for Fighting games as far as I'm concerned.

 

[The Other Wind]

Nooob thread!

 

[Mr.C]

balanced as in almost equal, meaning it isnt Marvel vs capcom noobcake.

 

[Pikaville]

Mc fox your absoloutly right.People need to realise that this is a NEW game and therefore will have new aspects and there is nothing we can do about it.Everyone needs to stop whining like little girls and get over the fact that there WILL be change. Because that is what makes sequals better....CHANGE!.Super smash bros 64-Melee ,there was change.Is anyone complaining now?The answer is no.Melee-Brawl will anyone be complaining? I say no.You also have to remember that Nintendo have never( and i mean never!) let us down when it comes to games as important as this,especially when there on a new console. (This is based on 16/17 out of 18 years of my life as a devout nintendo fan)Super Smash Bros Brawl will be the single greatest game of all time,you just need to trust nintendo(yes im talking to you negative losers) because I know I do.Anyone who keeps complaining about change is proving their distrust in Nintendo( which quite frankly pisses me off as they make the best games the world has ever seen and have kept a high standard throughout their existance.Not to mention their revoloution of all gaming for example every thing you see on a modern day console controller) These people will be eating their proverbial hat come release time.Just shut up complaining and wait for the game,then we,ll see who,s right(which will be me, mc fox and the others who agree with me)

 

[Sporkman]

Would you say Fox and Pichu are equal? and what about Ice Climbers ability to do a 999% combo? its hard to see why Ice Climbers arnt top tier with that..

Marvel vs Capcom has around 80 odd characters, each with a unique move set, its a brilliant game and for the imbalance argument is rather weakened due to the fact there are so many characters. Admitedly balancing a game is very hard and Massively Multiplayer Online games (MMO's) such as World of Warcraft and Star Wars Galaxies always have people complaining the game isnt balanced between all the class options.

the 999% combo is another example of broken, doesnt Fox have one also? if being able to get an opponent to 999% without them being able to a **** thing about it strikes me as broken.

I'm not saying i dont like Smash Bros., Im not saying its balanced. Its a game i play, and im sure Nintendo will do a good job with the next in the series, but to say stuff like its balanced (simply because its not marvel vs. capcom) is incorrect.

 

[Mr.C]

shine with fox? most people in tourneys will do one rep, which is around 30% of damage. A good shine in tourney play is usually around 50-60%

no one ever does icys ing cg, cause its dangerous and not worth trying to do in tourney, and im not to worried about the 3 good ice climber players in the world ever doing that to me.

Yes pichu can beat fox, I never said they are equal. Fox is a better character but that doesnt mean pichu cannot win.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I think one poster takes the cake when he said to "make wavedashing an official move". If a "n00bcake" loses to a pro due to lack of skill, it should be ENTIRELY his fault (that and item luck) and not because the pro has "teh connections" to the internet and knew 106 moves that the guide didn't tell you and the game didn't expect for you to figure out.

Brawl will defenitely be a change. My mains from 64 to melee are entirely different (64 has Pikachu a C.Falcon, Melee feels better with Roy and Samus) Let's not be afraid of change kthnx.

 

[Sporkman]

gah, im not saying pichu cant win! im saying whether you think they are equal, which youve said no "Fox is a better character "
That IS imbalance! to use Marvel vs. Capcom, every character in that can beat every other character, cant they!

Mary, the point im making is that the possibility is there, its illogical sure, but it can be done, and thus proves its broken. Someone COULD do it in the final of a tourney and it could be the deciding factor.

 

[Mr.C]

people pick the same few characters in marvel lol, sentinel, magneto, storm and a few others lol cause they are cheap as ****.

 

[Sporkman]

:S I always picked Ryu, Some guy with a blue beam sword and either Guile if my mate had Cable (i hate that son of a gun) or Stryder Hiryu (sp?) simply cause he looked 'da shiz'.
I never played the game competively (to the same degree of that i play smash bros.) and am rather intrigued that the people you mentioned had cheap tactics.

 

[SuperDoodleMan]

Where has it been said that the gameplay will be slower? I could not find any english blog on the official website (www.smashbros.com) and a translation I've heard of mentions the speed will be adjusted or moderated, which doesn't necessarily mean slower.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=28374077

 

[Sweet Tooth]

MvC2 is broken as hell and SSBM is pretty unbalanced.

Anyone whos says different is lieing to themselves.

 

[Mr.C]

mvc2 is the cheapest game made, lol. one combo leads to an inf = all 3 chars not beign able to do anything. = dead = unbalanced.

 

[nomis]

mvc2 is the cheapest game made, lol. one combo leads to an inf = all 3 chars not beign able to do anything. = dead = unbalanced.

You obviously don't know how it is in the MvC2 competitive scene. Come to Evo2k6 this year or watch the Evo2k5 videos (which will be released very soon).

Yes, MvC2 is broken as hell but it's still a very competitive game.

Easy on the wine Charlotte, Resident Evil 4 was quite the dish..

Someone said "If aint broke then there's no need to repair it" now just what the hell is wrong with Smash Bros. Melee?

Only the fact it is actually one of the most broken games ever and you actively support that unwittingly because the whole idea that the game actually has a tier list is just a pure dead give away.

I went right ahead and skipped pages 2-5 and have completely forgotten what this thread is about, but i will say this:

SSBM > RE4. I'm an avid fan of the RE series and there's one thing that I have done with all the RE games: play them for a month and never play them again.

Every fighting game has a tier list - it doesn't mean that the game is broken as hell. To consider SSBM as one of the most broken games ever and say that MvC2 isn't is pretty absurd. You too, obviously need to check the competitive scene in MvC2.

And read the rest of the thread, you might become enlightened.

Off-topic: How come people consider L-cancelling a glitch?

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

First, I'm pro-change but anti-aerial. SSBM aerial battling is fine the way it is. A bunch of characters are aerial-whores, and the rest use the aerial part to continue a combo. There is plenty of aerial fighting now and I don't see why they want more.
Even when people are fighting close to the ground, they're doing either of 3 things. 1) massing on the short-hopping, 2) tilting and stuff to get opponent into the air for combo 3) actual ground-fighting[this one doesn't last long and goes really fast]. Note that the 3rd one is really short.

Other than that, I like slowing down the pace. I can handle Melee's speed well, I'm just not a big fan of it. What I think they are doing is not the 'pace' itself though is slowing down. My belief is that they're making the moves faster, but having less knockback in general. So a meteor to the face will send you only half the distance it would in Melee {or some ratio making it smaller}.

Also, let's stop comparing Brawl to MvC2, that game is ridiculous. I was playing it today....ugh...3 plasma cannons to the face = dead no-matter-what. Yea, it is ridiculously imbalanced, but that's not because of the high number of characters. They just didn't take time to balance, I can see easy changes which would help a lot. (not even gonna try Dan, he's there PURPOSELY to be horrible. This I came to realize with his 1x1 inch super hadoken. NOT even thinking about his autograph attack.)

 

[Jink]

Virtua Fighter(4evo and now 5) = Perfectly well balanced competitive fighting game.

MvC2 = All characters that can fly wins, and Comando.

GGXX(R) = Dust-Loop, Zappa's Dog-Loop, etc., but still a great inovation on it Tension-bar system.

SC3 = Xiangua, Sophy, Astaroth and Glitches(G+2,2) by Namco, horrible tracking flaws.

Tekken5(DR) = df+2 and you are dead plus worst programing as SC3, and almost no gameplay at all.

MeltyBlood = cra*y smasher combo-based game but at least every character has infities, but still is a skilless game.

SF-III: 3S = the best 2D-fighter, but with unblockable glitches, but very skillful game, in fact is frame-based skill game, it has to be played perfectly like VF4evo.

DOA2U(4) = A good 3D fighter, but misunderstanded by everyone(Casual), with flawless programing, no glitches and well balanced character almost as VF4evo's characters

SSB = Great Fun game that...

SSBM = ... inspired nintendo on making there first truly competitive fighting game, Melee!!!. but still unbalanced.


The only thing that ruins Fighting game are Glitches that makes the game to go over default level, this dosen't include In-depth stuff like VF4evo's A.R.E.,(etc.) or SSBM's WaveDash or catching item (on grond or air), Crouch-deffence, Fast-fall, etc. cause these are In-gameplay factors.
And we most renember that in no game, the characters are played and win by them self, in MvC2 case, the game is Broken but it require lots of skills to do what they do with some of those characters(more skill than most fighting game even almost as VF4evo's), same as SSBM(Fox's Sheild-Loop, that's for hard cores only)

SSBB(X): Like many sayd, the game is goin to change for the good of its gameplay, maybe to balance it, or just for the sake of inovation, but it will, and if you(all) truely like SSB, you'll adapt to it, no matter your skills, cause there's goin to be a new type of skill which everyone's goin learn and change there ways to keep up with the game and its competition.
Especialy now that there's "Online-Melee".


BTW: SoulBlade, SC1, SC2, SC3 are my Favorite fighting games of all time, but facts are facts, and its only for Scrubs to ignore them.

Best Fighting games rank:
#-1!!: VF4evo, FT, and soon 5
2nd: SF-III:3s
3rd: SSBM ties with DOA2U
The rest is above are above SC3 and T5:DR(Namco su*ked a lot)


That's all

 

[nomis]

2d fighting games > 3d fighting games. Just because a game is very well balanced doesn't mean it's fun.

 

[Chaotic Yoshi]

This may have been mentioned already but to those that remove items because its random and broken you might aswell ban peach and her turnips including X.X turnip, bomb-omb and beam sword...

 

[Khorsan]

Thank you McFox for being the abundance of wisdom we all can respect and listen to.

Mr.C: I'll come back to seeing if items are too random at some point in the far future. I haven't been to enough tourney's to know first hand, but I still don't fully agree that "tems do not show skill." For now, I conceed to you on that point.

nomis: I think people just started thinking L-canceling is a glitch because... it's too fast? I don't know, some people take drugs too much or something.

For those who like to compare to every fighting game under the sun: Stop. It doesn't belong here.

 

[Scav]

Oh but items do show some skill.

I have 2 friends in particular that are just amazing with items. It seems like they are always getting lucky, but then I realize that when we play with items, they are getting lucky more often. Why? Because when you play a lot with items, you DO get better with them. People that are good with items are good at placing themselves in a situation where they are most likely to be able to take full advantage of a random event.

The issue about items is not one about skilllessness. It's about randomness that neither player has control over. A good items player will know when to go for a beam sword, or how to control more of the level to stall for a pokeball. A good items player can't prevent a bobomb from dropping in front of someone while they're charging an fsmash. That is the random event that we want to avoid.

Item players are like poker players in that they put themselves in a position to take advantage of a beneficial situation, or to minimize a harmful one. But in poker, there isn't a card that says "you win automically." That's where the bad kind of randomness comes in, and why items are banned.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I see no problem with them changing around a few things about the gameplay engine. It's a new game, and should be treated as such. If wavedashing is removed, then someone will find something else abuseable that will become a standard for some characters or playstyles. Not every good player wavedashes constantly. And not everyone who wavedashes is any good. there's so much more to it than that. If they end up making a game that's not entertaining and can't hold interest for competitive play, the worst that could happen is that everyone goes back to Melee.

 

[Zozefup]

Just wait until the game comes out, you'll see. I think SSBB will change for the better. There will be even more things (like wavedashing) that will give pros an advantage over noobs. We will still have shorthopping, fastfalling, L-canceling, teching and many more things. Samus will probably keep her bomb jumping and graple to recover. With this many characters there WILL be tons of glitches that pros will use. Nintendo has purposly added things like L-canceling to give pros an advantage, and they won't stop with this version. In Brawl you will notice an even bigger difference in pro and noob game play, and noobs will still be complaining about the glitches.

 

[Mr.C]

I dont need to go to evo, ive seen pro's play. Mvc2 is the most unbalanced game made.. gg

 

[Pikaville]

This may have been mentioned already but to those that remove items because its random and broken you might aswell ban peach and her turnips including X.X turnip, bomb-omb and beam sword...

Dont think thats ever going to happen son.Plus my best tactic against a turnip/item happy Peach is to catch the things she throws and throw again repeat and even if they use their shield you can **** it very quickly with the better turnips.(its almost too easy as sheik. Im serious whats with that?Owning Peach with her own turnips nothing better!)Ask zac(hes an1mosity or numb d1st0rt10n on this site) at the 1st Irish tournament Sorry about going off topic but i think peach players would have said it if i hadent.

 

[Chaotic Yoshi]

So your saying its fair that peach has random instant KO items because you can deal with it by catching them etc. So why the big deal about turning items on for everyone..

 

[dizzy]

Because regular items like capsules have a tendency to appear at randomly appear in your attack range and explode, whereas Peach's items are built into her character design and do not physically interfere with either player's attacks. It's also a much rarer occurence than items.

 

[shortguy255]

Hooray! Someone with sense! I haven't been on these forums for too long, and don't get me wrong I love it here, this topic is one thing i really don't agree with (well, this and some things in the debate threads, lol). I agree with you that wavedashing should be taken out. If these "pros" are as good as they say they are, they shouldn't have to take advantage of a glitch in order to beat someone. If you think moving around by jumping, then quickly air-dodging takes skill (though ill admit, it can get tricky, but if I sat down for an hour or 2 and practiced it, i could be "pro") then you, my friend, are wrong.

I also don't understand why it is that people pick one character and stick to them, no matter what. Yes, it's true, everyone has a preferred character that they are better with (Link, baby!), but what's the point of having all those other 25 character just lying there, wanting to be used. When I play, i play one game with Link, then i random every other time. I am the best player out of all my friends (well, tied for first, lol), and you have no idea how satisfying it is to beat everyone with like 12 different characters in a row! Oh man...

So yeah, basically, i agree 100% with you. Common sense RULEZ!

 

[Avinash_Tyagi]

The gameplay changes need to be made, the game is unbalanced at at the moment, the top tiers either need to be nerfed or the lower tiers need to be powered up, slowing the speed and nerfing the speedsters would go a long way towards balancing the play.

 

[Antiself]

Well, since it's suppose to be a revamp for melee, many things will change; and the current tier list will be generally unpredictable.

One thing I've thought about was let's say that SSBB was a perfectly balanced game (only possible in theory). There'd still be a tier list, and how'd it'd look would be based upon popularity of a character. (More people playing = more people good with that character)

BTW, nerfing good characters, no. Make the low/mid tiers better. SSBM killed poor SSB kirby.

 

[crescentia]

I'll sum everyone's feelings up with three words: people are worried. Worried that Brawl won't have the same depth if they fix certain aspects of the game, worried that the developers will ignore the competitive audience, and thus worried that Brawl won't be able to support serious tournaments. People want Brawl to have the same success that Melee had, casually and competitively. But, it's honestly hard to imagine what it'll be like without comparing it or basing it off of Melee.

I hope they make items BETTER in Brawl. The ones in Melee aren't worth using, IMO, because they were nerfed too much from 64, or they had terrible concepts (cloaking device, anyone?). I hope they remove random exploding item containers too. I hope they expand aerial combat, even if it means making the game a bit slower. I hope they DO change the game - but on top of this all I hope the game will still be able to support competitive play.

shortguy255: Pros don't need wavedashing to beat you, or me, or anyone else that isn't a pro. Pros need wavedashing to beat each other.

 

[Arj]

If wavedashing was taken out, I'm 100% sure Ken would still **** all of us. He's not good at wavedashing which makes him so good, its that hes so good at this game. So enough with the if wavedash was removed I'd be able to compete with the pros.

And Smashguy congrats on being tied for first with all your friends, quite an accomplishment.

*Replace Ken with the name of any pro, his is just the easiest to type.

 

[Gerbality]

I think they should keep it as is, removing too much stuff would make it not as much of a classic.

 

[McFox]

So in other words, you want to play Super Smash Brothers: Melee: Again. Forgive me if I don't agree with that.

If you want to play Melee, then play Melee. But since I will be putting down 50$ for a NEW game, I'd like it to feel NEW.