To Those that Oppose the Gameplay Changes

[nomis]

favoring the less skilled shouldn't matter to those who are highly skilled, the less skilled won't make it that far in a tournament, and if it isn't a tournament, then it will be obvious who's better, if one loses by fluke, then so be it, it's not really about winning.

What if winning means a $5000 prize? I sure as hell care about winning. Pride > * though.

I would rather see a skilled player flaunt his moves than a lesser skilled player win with items/luck.

 

[Scav]

favoring the less skilled shouldn't matter to those who are highly skilled, the less skilled won't make it that far in a tournament, and if it isn't a tournament, then it will be obvious who's better, if one loses by fluke, then so be it, it's not really about winning.

That's such a narrow argument. And, perhaps you need to be reminded of how seeding works. Top players vs Lowest players first, and Middle vs Middle. Then, as the tournament goes on, you face members more your skill level.

It is extremely likely that the top players play unskilled or less skilled opponents. But you're right that they don't lose to random item blasts. the problem arises when the players are close in skill level. That is where it starts to skew tournament results.

 

[GuardianSphinx]

Hypothetical situation:
I'm a boxer that has been training since childhood to become champ of the heavyweight division. So I work my *** off for about 15 years and finally I get my championship fight. Then right when I'm about to deliver my final blow to win the round, someone throws a hammer at my face, I fall to the ground, and the ref counts to 10.
Where is the reward for all my hard work? Has it all gone to waste because of some stupid random factor being in the game? So do I have to adapt to this randomness? Let's say I do.
So I'm doing pretty well in my rematch, and I've been throwing hammers etc. throughout the round. Then, uh oh, bob-omb happens to drop right under my opponents hands. Well, that's great. I guess in SSB luck should be the ultimate factor and not skill, right?
Let's say I'm playing in a SSBB tournament and it's the finals. I'm losing to my opponent pretty badly, so I unplug his controller and shoot him in the leg. My excuse: Tough ****, the game should be frantic and chaotic!

I lmao at this xD. that's funny your funny.

Seriously though, I'm so hoping that this doesn't turn into a Marvel Vs. Capcom game though...
Jump hithithitLowhit, their on the floor. simply press L1+L2 they've lost 1/3 of their life. It just sucks most of the time, or gets boring very quickly.

I haven't seen any characters yet which are quick :S which worries me, he looks about the speed of luigi (jump speed)

I dunno i just can't see this game being as outstanding as melee.. I really hope I'm wrong but come on, I though Brawl was gonna be a release game with the rev. BUT NO 2007??!!?! WTF IS THAT?!?! come on.. seriously..... guys....... like omg...... wtf is with that.......... no way.......... just don't get me started.

 

[WiiPlaya77]

haha, if winning means $5,000, then i really hope it's a tournament, if so, then the wind didn't blow your way and you weren't meant to win. I have to be honest with you, I used to be really uptight about how to play, like I said, but I've seen my friends get really evil over this, a game that was meant to be fun, competitive, yes, but fun. They would really scare me when they lost, and it happened with everyone I trained up in the game, girls and guys. It was then that I started to play differently and even lose, I wasn't playing to win, I started playing to learn how others played, and they would always ask what was wrong with me. I'm going off on a tangent now, and I'm not going to argue these things, because it won't make a difference to the developers, and I'll be happy with anything, both sides have valid points, the only thing I want is for online to be fun for everyone, not just us. What I'm really interested in is if Nintendo will host regional tournaments and all of that good stuff, btw, that's a really funny sig nomis...

 

[WiiPlaya77]

touche to the l-cancel and fox taunt/samus beam and whatnot, very true, it just feels different because those give you believable results, but as i said, it's cool, it should get better animation at least, and out of those, only l-canceling is of any great use, the others are easter egg type deals.

 

[Nurok]

You fail
Scav is the man
<3
Scav gets plus rep for debate.
:D
-edun
btw, you do know that none of thias maters till 2007... lmao k thnx

 

[Black Metal]

I think tourneys are perfect. They dont prohibit item use during your life, they just want to make it more balanced and skill dependant. How would you feel if you were about to win, and then while delivering the final blow, a bomb omb popped up in front of you and your opponent was already hit, so youre the only one who dies from the item? Random right?

Although i do agree. Fight the power!

Why not just remove those types of items in the tournaments. Like the bobbomb and the mine, and hammer etc. keep the beam sword, hrb, rabbit ears. Also take away poke balls. They've have cost me matches just not in tournaments becuase i've never been in one because i'm 14 and no tournaments have been near my city.

 

[SmashChu]

Thank you.

You summed up my thoughts on the game. I thing I hate on this board is everything is so competative. Every one thinks that God handed Moses the teir list, not the 10 commandments. I've played tournaments before and I dislike them. 1 course, no items. Not that fun. Most of my playing is random matches with all items and 4 ppl.

The truth is SSB is ment to be fun. Its frantic, hetic and fun. I might not like the toned down speed, but SSBB will be a fantastic game none the less. Im glad you made this post as it seems to encompass everything I've been thinking.

 

[Scav]

Blackmetal, please read the entire thread before posting. I've already gone into that subject at length, and why it doesn't work.

 

[ArichTheViking]

I dunno i just can't see this game being as outstanding as melee.. I really hope I'm wrong but come on, I though Brawl was gonna be a release game with the rev. BUT NO 2007??!!?! WTF IS THAT?!?! come on.. seriously..... guys....... like omg...... wtf is with that.......... no way.......... just don't get me started.

Jeez. We have less than 10 confirmed characters and only a handful of in-game screens and a minute or so of game footage... And you already are comparing the game to Melee?

Whats more, you think the game might be WORSE because they are taking more time on it? WTF is with YOU?

In regards to the main topic, I've seen a lot more people say that WDing should be removed than say items should be removed. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone say items should be removed. I generally play with items about 50/50, and I've never learned to WD because no one I play with WDs. I do play some serious 1v1 no-items fights on FD basically every time I play, but I also love to turn the items on very high and play 4 players in giant melee and coin mode on Big Blue. There's no reason to take away anything in between those extremes, and if WDing or other advanced techniques became common online, I would probably try to pick them up, and they could only add another layer to the game.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Why would you want to dumb down an already simple game? Games are for gamers. Not grandparents who don't know how to use a T.V. remote! Gamers do not want games that are too easy. Smash is ingenious in it's simplicity, but it isn't easy because of the presense of both intended and unintended techniques (L Cancelling, WaveDashing, SH's, etc.). If you change the gameplay too much, you remove the things that make an expert an expert. This really just sounds like a "omgremovewavedash" thread.

 

[Spirithawk]

Ok, here's my two cents. I agree with a lot of Dark Link's points, especially items. I think that items adds an extra layer of depth to the game that other games don't have. People can become very skilled with items, to the point where someone who has trouble with a pro w/out items can win much more easily w/ items. Not because its random, but because the first person is a pro with items. That said, I also agree with the randomness problem of hitting a bomb that appears out of nowhere. Hopefully, this problem will be addressed in the new game.

As for wavedashing, for a while I had a problem with it, but I don't anymore. There was a point where, as a long time Smash player, I was starting to think that I had learned mostly everything I could. I was wrong. I went to college and saw stuff I had never seen before. I gained a new interest in the game, as it was suddenly much fresher. Part of that was because I saw what WDing could accomplish. Now, I still don't wavedash. But playing people that do allow for a more entertaining experience, since I have to accomadate for it. In addition, taking out WDing won't balance out the game, because a newb that knows how to wavedash is still a noob. There are a number of people at my school that WD, but me and a friend of mine still beat the crap out of them. Yet neither of us wavedash. Of course, there are plenty of people who do who beat us, but that is by far not the only reason.

In the end though, I will agree with the overall message of DarkLink, that change will be good, and Sakurai knows what he's doing. He did the last two times.

 

[Khorsan]

At the very least, I agree to the idea of what DarkLing 313 is trying to get across, even if I don't agree with his points. For the most part, I agree to what Scav has said, due to it being the most organized of those who share the same idea as me on items, stages, and so forth.

To fix items, make more items that don't give certain characters glaring advantages. Then, add in the ability to tune the selection of even the containers, and I think it will work out better.

The levels issue in tournements will always be there. Indeed, I feel that it isn't some levels give other characters an advantage as much as some levels give other characters unsurmountable disadvantages. A character who can't jump well should just not try at Icicle Mountain; those which far-displacing forward and back throws dominate Flat Zone in an unjust manner; and Hyrule Temple has many problems, of which I'm most annoyed that battles can take far to long for some tournements. And everyone seems to have differing oppinions.

Perhaps Sakurai will make some sort of tournement standard, or maybe just keep it in mind as he creates the game. That may or may not solve anything, and even if it does, there will be people who complain and those who wont. Let those who hold and attend tourneys figure that out for themselves, and quit worrying about things far beyond your influence.

 

[Mr.C]

your all noobs

 

[Khorsan]

And you're seemingly illiterate. A fourteen character post doesn't prove your competence very well. At least back up your statement with why you think that we're all noobs and I might have a bit more respect for you.

 

[commonyoshi]

I hate all you noobs. Get off my internet. You just want things changed because you aren't as good as us 1337 people. You cant keep up with WDing so you want it out. Just die. Die die die. Who cares about the casual Smasher? If they aren't as willing to play as long as the rest of us, why make it easier for them to beat us by removing advanced tactics?

 

[Mr.C]

Get top 5 ina state then we can talk, noob.

casual smashers are noobs, they think wding & lcanceling should be banned from tournaments.

your all noobs, only person in here ive seen that has skill is Scav, noobs.

 

[Scav]

Commonyoshi: Who are you again?

What's this "us" stuff?

I didn't warn Mr C because I at least know what he's getting at. And Mr C knows that I warn him every opportunity that I get ;P

But you are outright flaming, and I won't stand for it. Your argument makes no more sense than people who say "Omg no wavedash it an exploit."

So much trolling.

Mr C: This topic is not about Casual vs Competitive. Some people seem to THINK that it is, but it's not. It's more about people complaining about the game before it comes out, and what they complain about.

So, everyone can stop yelling at eachother. Now.

 

[Mr.C]

I <3 Scav, and yes he has given me well over 5million warnings already.

But my point is

pros > casual

might not be the topic but its 100% factual in the eyes of mother teressa

we know 100% more about the game then you, were 100% better. Wding should stay, items are not tourney playable, ssbb will be amazing.

one more thing

pros > casual

so stop coming in here posting about **** u have no idea about, or think u know about. If u want to have fun and play with items, play with ur **** friends. If u want to play all stages with no FF then so be it, just be noob with ur other noob friends and leave us pros alone. tytytyty.

this is my last post <3 gg

 

[Magik0722]

For this post I will use the names "More skilled" and "Less skilled" for the people who agree that items and some stages should be removed from competitive play and that WD should be left in and for the people who think that every natural aspect in the game should always turned on all the time respectively.

The Chaos Factor takes away what the more skilled have trained for... Its like all your training will help you and also your opponent, but mostly your opponent. Its helping the less skileld more than the more skilled which isnt what you described as "fair". If you want stay in your casual play zone, thats fine with me. Just don't say that the more skileld played are the unfair ones.

 

[ArichTheViking]

pros > casual

Actually, I'd say casual fans outnumber pros 100:1, and therefore are 100x more important in the eyes of any reasonably intelligent game designer.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not though. If yes, then great parody, if not, then you're a douche.

 

[Magik0722]

Actually, I'd say casual fans outnumber pros 100:1, and therefore are 100x more important in the eyes of any reasonably intelligent game designer.

did you know that 95% of people make their statistics off the top of their heads?

 

[commonyoshi]

Ok. Maybe I should have been more clear. My point was that if people are too lazy to master something, they shouldn't just decide to ban it from the game. It is alright if they dont decide to do it. But if it is removed from the game, then the people who have worked hard to learn it will be punshed just because they were too lazy. Items also take skill factor out of the game. If they want to have casual matches with items, then so be it. But tourneys were meant to show who was the best. And you cant know who is the best if there is random stuff affecting the match the whole time.

 

[Mr.C]

ok i lied about last post u noob

did you know MLG sponsors professional gamers?

giving away more the 50'000 each tourney. ooo**** omgomg wtf was that?!

"professional gamers"

not

"casual gamers"

noob

like I said if u have fun playing with items then play with items, us tournament players play to win, playing competitive is fun, smash to pro players is not just a "game" we have made most of our real life friends from this game traveling, playing, hanging out. having an item drop on your head isnt fun.

 

[ArichTheViking]

did you know that 95% of people make their statistics off the top of their heads?

The point is, casual fans will be more important for the game designers than will pros. If it were made for pros, they would only touch the lower tier Melee characters, they would only make "fair" stages, and they wouldn't bother with items or single player mode.

Over 6 million people bought Melee, and I would bet only tens of thousands of them EVER played in tourneys. Therefore, casual > pro.

However, I don't really see what this thread has to do with that. It seems to me that casual fans wouldn't give a **** if advanced techniques were included- only pathetic wannabe pros who are making excuses for why they can't compete. Then again, only elitist pricks who don't want to have to learn a new style would care if the game mechanics changed. Just because someone is a Melee master shouldn't give them a free pass to being a Brawl master from day 1.

Basically, everyone stop *****ing. The game isn't coming out for a looooong time, and it will be totally different than Melee. Don't worry about it. It is still going to kick *** and take names.

 

[commonyoshi]

Considering pros play other pros and noobs play other noobs, why do noobs care if advanced tactics are in the game? Why cant noobs just agree on no WDing and the pros can be happier with it? Also pros>noobs. Noobs should just choose to stay in their ignorant world without Wding. That way we can all be happy. We both get what we want.

 

[Zink]

Oh come on. It's not all about WDing, it's about having a gift for the game and dedicating much of your life to it. The entire Pros vs Casual arguement is meaningless anyway. First you have to define casual and pro player, then you have to explain why they are in conflict, then you talk about resolving the conflict. What I've seen here is one side taking potshots at the other side then ducking into cover from Scav's banstick. How about THIS-

PROS = CASUAL

 

[Khorsan]

The point is, casual fans will be more important for the game designers than will pros. If it were made for pros, they would only touch the lower tier Melee characters, they would only make "fair" stages, and they wouldn't bother with items or single player mode.

Over 6 million people bought Melee, and I would bet only tens of thousands of them EVER played in tourneys. Therefore, casual > pro.

However, I don't really see what this thread has to do with that. It seems to me that casual fans wouldn't give a **** if advanced techniques were included- only pathetic wannabe pros who are making excuses for why they can't compete. Then again, only elitist pricks who don't want to have to learn a new style would care if the game mechanics changed. Just because someone is a Melee master shouldn't give them a free pass to being a Brawl master from day 1.

Basically, everyone stop *****ing. The game isn't coming out for a looooong time, and it will be totally different than Melee. Don't worry about it. It is still going to kick *** and take names.

QFT.

commonyoshi: Actually, I've seen many, MANY more people saying either they don't care if WD stays/goes or say it should stay over people declaring it's something that needs to be fixed. Many people have merely _speculated_ that it is sometimes concidered a glitch and _could_ be removed; the ratio of those saying it should be nixed seems to be negligable. And concidering there's a whole thread for you to vent your spleen on the topic, go there and leave this to more general discussion.

EDIT: Mr.C: Waiiiit a sec. So if you could make it so that a random item appearing couldn't hurt you withing, say, the first second of it's appearance (so that a random container won't kill you unless you try), you'd be ok with items in tournements?

 

[MetalGearLink]

better aerial figthing would be awesome I'm up for it!!!., But I'm oposed to slow down the game



i think a game were there is a big leap between a noob and a master is great! since yopu can reconize whop is good and who is crap...the point of competing is seeng who is better... for example is anoying than in mario party you are win al the miniga,mes and then lost the game because of the random things.....there is no competitivity if there is not a leap between noobs and pros

AEREAL GAME WOULD BE AWESOME!!!! IM LOOKING FOWARD TO IT!!!

I hope supers are not an item, that way more strategy can be used!


I agree on the level discution, the so called "pros" only play in stages were you can do combos and stuff...randomness sucks, however levels such as poke floats are not random, the pokemos always came out in the same place!!!!!! same whit rainbow course...THERE IS NO RANDOMNES!!!!!...and mastering a level is somethingthat makes smash so unique!!!!.....everybody here loves FINAL DESTINATION......but FD gives an advantage to FAST CHARACTERS!!!!!....I Can deal whit a fox using Link in mute city and batlefield, sinc ethey are small leves he can't run away from me....but FD is too big fox playes just keep runing away

I don't have any problem if they remove wabedash, since it's a glitch and besides SSBM was competitive enougth whitout WD there were even more tournaments when the game came out and pelople didn't even know about WD

 

[Khorsan]

*sigh* Since someone brought it up again, a note on the aerial combat: Remeber that those videos weren't exactly gameplay videos. They were just showing what they could be capible of. It's been stated that much can and probably will be changed, so as long as you know that the "slower aerial combat" thing isn't confermed yet (much like everything else outside of characters, it seems).

 

[Devastlian]

I couldn't care either way if they change the gameplay. I can adapt liek wut and have very little problems with learning curves. I don't really dig on the advanced techniques but I don't like competing anyway so I guess that doesn't really matter. Hell, I've only just started trying to L-Cancel Link's swordplant move yet I've still been able to beat most of my friends despite saving the Spin Attack for edge-guarding and taunting.

As long as I can have fun with my little circle of friends and by myself, they can do whatever to the gameplay as long as its not drastically different. And, well, quite frankly, that's not really possible so I guess I'm all set.

 

[RAMRAM]

Dang, this is probably the best post I've ever seen on this site, though I've been here not a few weeks. DarkLink_313 making a very good point with his posting about, well, everything he writes about.

Change in the virtual world is what speeds us into the future, and should be embraced, as long as it is fun and fair.
Nintendo is sending us farther into the future of video games with it's controller layout which is, or seems to be, fun.

 

[commonyoshi]

QFT.

commonyoshi: Actually, I've seen many, MANY more people saying either they don't care if WD stays/goes or say it should stay over people declaring it's something that needs to be fixed. Many people have merely _speculated_ that it is sometimes concidered a glitch and _could_ be removed; the ratio of those saying it should be nixed seems to be negligable. And concidering there's a whole thread for you to vent your spleen on the topic, go there and leave this to more general discussion.

EDIT: Mr.C: Waiiiit a sec. So if you could make it so that a random item appearing couldn't hurt you withing, say, the first second of it's appearance (so that a random container won't kill you unless you try), you'd be ok with items in tournements?

Just because "many, MANY" people say it, it should be gone? Why dont they just not use it and let the people who want to use it use it? And I also posted on item stuff too, not just WDing. And I would be anti weapons no matter what. They make the game unbalanced. Someone gets a freezie and the battle is pretty much in their favor until they throw it.

 

[McFox]

You know what I care about? Whether the game is FUN or not.

I don't care about Wavedashing. I don't use it enough to miss it.
I don't care about "fair" stages only. Give me some FUN stages to play, like Rainbow Ride or Hyrule Castle (64).
I don't care about tiers. Some characters are just going to be better than others. I don't care even a little bit. I'll get good with my character no matter where they're placed on the tier list.
I don't care about clones. I like the clones fine, but if they go by the wayside, so be it.
I don't care if all the characters don't return. Yes, I like all the characters from Melee, but unlike most people, I realize that Brawl is a NEW game. If they have to remove some of Melee's characters to add some new ones, then great. If I want to play as the old characters, I'll play Melee.
I don't care about Super moves. Super moves look really fun, no matter how it's activated. If you can turn them off, fine. If you can't, fine. It'll still be fun to use them.

My point is that I think a lot of people are focusing too much on Sakurai making SSBMA (Super Smash Brothers: Melee: Again), and not enough on just speculating how the NEW game can be made FUN, as opposed to SIMILAR. I'm far in favor of fun > the same thing.

 

[commonyoshi]

Fun=the same thing.
Sorry, just had to do that. I agree though. This game was meant to be fun. But the thing is, Wave Dashing made the game more fun for me. I dont care about levels. I will pwn just as easily on rainbow cruise just as I would on F Destination. But fighting to see who was the best, not just a free for all match, was what made it fun for me. That's why I dont want items in serious matches. I know that some people just want the game to be another version of Melee and I'm against that. But I'm also against taking out what made Melee fun in the first place. There has to be a compromise so that there are new ticks to learn, and for the old techniques to stay for more advanced battling also.

 

[GREAT-ONE]

Wow, I've never seen so much complaining and arguing about a game that is not even close to coming out yet. . . . . its actually quite entertaining. Lol

I've got a fantastic idea, how about we all just wait until the game comes out and then you can complain if the game is good or not heh?

 

[GuardianSphinx]

Jeez. We have less than 10 confirmed characters and only a handful of in-game screens and a minute or so of game footage... And you already are comparing the game to Melee?

Whats more, you think the game might be WORSE because they are taking more time on it? WTF is with YOU?

Oh... oh ok. I see interesting point...
Of course i shouldn't be comparing Brawl to Melee! It's only a sequel to the best game for GC ever, and has about 1million and 1 expectations for it. Comparing Brawl to Harvest moon would be a stupid idea...

Secondly, I'd like you to name one person who is involved with these topics which doesn't compare Brawl to Melee (Just incase you didn't get it the first time, THE SEQUEL of Melee)
And the title of this topic is to those who oppose CHANGES which referes to the changes from MELEE to BRAWL. Do I really need to say any more...

 

[Jink]

To everyone: (I'm tire, so I'll write what I think instead of telling, ok)

1-Virtua Fighter = pure competively fighting game (if you know VF then you know what am I writing about), it is 30%-Rock, 30%-Sissor, 30%-Paper and 10%-Luck, which equals... perfect game for competitions. (the 10% of luck is base on the outcome of the player's actions and reactions), HardCore's only

2-Everything Namco offers = Cutely-pretty fashionly bad programed random games (I will not explain why, because there's too much S**T to talk about it), proved not to be good for competition, Casual's only

3-SSB = A very rarely great 2D(with 3D graphics) Fighting game, that boost up players more on reflexes and speed intead of mind-games or mix-ups (like the above), and it really turn out to be a great game (for a "one-GuardPoint-fighting-game").

4-WDing and other In-Depth stuff (if you the meaning of that word):
Fighting games should never go over the default-level, and WDashing is just the same as using Samus's bomb to make her "Short-Jump"(ETC.), is In-Depth gameplay, there's no other way to put it, is a built-in factor, is just air evading to the ground fowardly from a jump, and its universal, to say that such thing should be removed is for Scrubs only. Is in-game-play for Miyamoto's sake!!!.

5-Items:
Let's say mmmmmmmm MarioKart, "SSB + Items = MarioKart:DD", "MarioKart = RandomGame", "MarioKart:DD = Unbalance-RandomGame". The big difference in this math is that SSB can be played (by Default) at a Highly level of skill, in a way MarioKart can't be played which means: "MarioKart:DD = Unbalance-RamdomGame", while "SSB + Items = Skilless-Unbalced-RandomGame". Now, "SSB without Items = Virtua Fighter".

6-Fun factor:
(I'll be simple and clean on this) Fun for The-Casual = been saved by luck at the last moment, Not-Fun for the Casual = been hopelessly beat up by Pros(Dedicated ppl that really appriciates the game, that's a Pro). Fun for The-Pros = overcome challanges as they come(Adaptation), Not-Fun for The-Pros = all efforts lost to a unchangeable Fact that decides for them no matter there Skills(Luck).


Summary:
"If it ain't broken, don't fix it", "Our industry is about Inclution, not Exclution", Nintendo is all about gameplay, and it is more gameplay that will be added to our new games!
And Gameplay, is for HardCores only, cause casuals oly care about graphics and fashion and stories blah, blah, blah. And thanks to them the industries have lost the mst inportant thing in creativity.... Gameplay.

 

[Mr.Starone]

My point is that I think a lot of people are focusing too much on Sakurai making SSBMA (Super Smash Brothers: Melee: Again), and not enough on just speculating how the NEW game can be made FUN, as opposed to SIMILAR. I'm far in favor of fun > the same thing.

I agree, I think alot of these people woul just perfer Meele with more characters and stages as opposed to something new. I would personally hate to see any characters with origional movesets go but I couldn't care less about the clones likely to go (I don't t think Ganondorf or Falco will be booted but that's for the other section).

 

[Zink]

Uhhh... I'm pretty sure he confirmed on the Dojo he would not remove any characters.