Tips vs MetaKnight

[Skyshroud]

What irks me is that the people who actually like Metaknight as a character (like M2K and others) are frowned upon by a lot of community members because they use a character that people feel is "broken." Nobody frowned upon Fox players in Melee because he was a very strong character, and nobody should frown upon anybody who uses Metaknight.

Actually on topic: M2K, this was a great post for people getting into Brawl (like myself) who want to learn more about a difficult matchup. Thanks for letting us into your head and at least trying to make the community better, regardless of those who don't listen.

Also, I know it might be a little much to ask, (especially from one person) but I think more of the high caliber players should make more posts like this that detail flaws and ways to beat the characters they know best. Then, we could compile it into a large metagame thread of sorts.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Too extreme.

A more realistic challenge would be for M2K to pick up Snake and beat all of the high end MK's (DSF, Dojo, Azen) with Snake.

I've never fought those mks but i'm pretty sure (if they're not better than m2k) that me afro and chops would be able to beat those mks, its not a really hard match for snake unless the MK is ridiculously awesome, so how about everyone stop crying and find a way to counter him, me, i'm gonna study the top MKs and then next time i fight one, i know what to expect, every other noob/average mk is destroy by me afro and lamchops throughout the state, now step you're games up and stop crying like a ***** you're embarassing the community, who's the one that started this whole ban mk thing???

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

What irks me is that the people who actually like Metaknight as a character (like M2K and others) are frowned upon by a lot of community members because they use a character that people feel is "broken." Nobody frowned upon Fox players in Melee because he was a very strong character, and nobody should frown upon anybody who uses Metaknight.

Actually on topic: M2K, this was a great post for people getting into Brawl (like myself) who want to learn more about a difficult matchup. Thanks for letting us into your head and at least trying to make the community better, regardless of those who don't listen.

Also, I know it might be a little much to ask, (especially from one person) but I think more of the high caliber players should make more posts like this that detail flaws and ways to beat the characters they know best. Then, we could compile it into a large metagame thread of sorts.

That's an awesome idea...well i can see if afro wants to help me put together a tips vs snake thread or i could just do it myself seeing as how i main him and marth simulataneously now

 

[Mew2King]

chillin started the ban MK thing, and OS is the main one that keeps whining about it

 

[Sgt Isaac]

I'd like to see this advice put into practice. I don't have a good MK to face and it seems like none of this would actually work. MK is just simply too fast and has too little lag to be punished like you describe.
It would help if you let people record your matches M2k.

 

[CO18]

Mk is Easy cake.

 

[yuqumalekingin]

is not the best option to metaknight banner, but it is unfair that someone solely by winning the money in a tournament metknight to use against someone who has worked long periods in another character, example a good Metaknight wins against a good snake metaknight .
wins MK

Measures should be taken against MK tournaments.
is the most fair in the bottom of the soul, I also play with metaknight. is not my main but it is unbalanced.

 

[Gindler]

My Snake 2-0d Chillin's MK in tourney, 2 stock mid % and 1 stock low %, this was at Critical Hit 4, which was the last recent major MD/VA tourney. The match is at least even or snake has the advantage. I have also done BETTER vs azens lucario , dsfs snake, fortes mk, most of Florida, among many other people using DDD rather than MK. I'm really mad that right after I put tons of hours into MK (my favorite character, back when people were whining about Snake) suddenly overswarm and chillin decide to tell everyone he should be banned, and now people are just using those as excuses instead of trying to get better. Take greg for instance, who doesn't even use MK, and having MK banned would only make it easier for him, being a Snake main, he is extremely against MK being banned because he knows it would be ********. Afro Thunder and HRNut feel the same too (2 top FL players) and Seibrik feels DDD could be the best in the game. Azen also says's it's dumb. There is no reason for me to have to prove anything; I have already proved lots, but people overlook it.

I'm beginning to think DDD might be the best 2, at least MK doesn't infinite like 6 of the cast and CG everyone else but MK and GW

I also did not know that AT and HRnut were the top 2 in florida, so I'm impressed with them more now

 

[Mew2King]

MK is just simply too fast and has too little lag to be punished like you describe.
It would help if you let people record your matches M2k.

1) you see that's where you're wrong, there's plenty of lag to punish

2) i usually do worse when im taped, and i generally don't like it, and the 2nd reason is why should i just let people copy me? that will just make ppl think mk is way more broken than he is. I think without DDD Falco and Rob then Snake would be better than MK.

HRnut is not top 2 in FL, that goes to Afro and Seibrik, but Afro/HR i believe are the top 2 FL snakes, unless lambchops improved a ton since ive been away

 

[falcoslayer]

you should boldface important stuff, either way, amazing and you're my hero

 

[clowsui]

tl;dr

man up and learn to play against MK.

 

[salaboB]

the 2nd reason is why should i just let people copy me? that will just make ppl think mk is way more broken than he is. I think without DDD Falco and Rob then Snake would be better than MK.

If it's just the moves you use (So you *can* be copied simply by watching you play) and not your ability to select when to do certain moves + the timing you use with them, you're not helping the anti-MK ban argument with this point at all.

If all it takes for someone to destroy their opponents with MK is to imitate what you did with no understanding for how it works, it demonstrates a brokenness in MK.

 

[1048576]

Let's make this quite clear. Metaknight isn't melee anybody. Metaknight has more tourney wins than the next best six of the cast combined. Nobody in melee has anywhere near that kind of discrepancy. Not Sheik, not Marth, not Fox.

Metaknight cannot be countered. Metaknight is easy to play. The only reason to play another character is for pride and respect. You want money, you go to the character with an advantage on everybody everywhere and maybe two or three even matchups.

I should "man up" and learn to play against MK? I did. I picked MK. It's the best way to beat him, which is disgusting.

 

[Gindler]

Let's make this quite clear. Metaknight isn't melee anybody. Metaknight has more tourney wins than the next best six of the cast combined. Nobody in melee has anywhere near that kind of discrepancy. Not Sheik, not Marth, not Fox.

Metaknight cannot be countered. Metaknight is easy to play. The only reason to play another character is for pride and respect. You want money, you go to the character with an advantage on everybody everywhere and maybe two or three even matchups.

I should "man up" and learn to play against MK? I did. I picked MK. It's the best way to beat him, which is disgusting.

Point 1...wow, true?

Point 2...true, true, and pride thing very true now which is sad.

Point 3...Well I wouldn't go MK, but luckily I main yoshi and it being almost even (keyword almost) just kinda fell into my lap

 

[Master Raven]

Sometimes I feel like Brawl is Pokemon.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sometimes I feel like Brawl is Pokemon.

pokemon is more balanced than this turd/ >_> *shot*

 

[Grunt]

pokemon is more balanced than this turd/ >_> *shot*

Lv 10 Res
ur right.

 

[Mew2King]

If all it takes for someone to destroy their opponents with MK is to imitate what you did with no understanding for how it works, it demonstrates a brokenness in MK.

no you could easily copy things that people did by watching vids in a game like brawl where tech skill is a very small factor, in melee you actually had to practice things to be good at them (most things, some simple things you just had to look at, I started off by doing that in the early days of smash)

 

[salaboB]

no you could easily copy things that people did by watching vids in a game like brawl where tech skill is a very small factor, in melee you actually had to practice things to be good at them (most things, some simple things you just had to look at, I started off by doing that in the early days of smash)

Then there shouldn't be such a difference between the best players and the good ones, there must be something present that can't simply be copied.

And it still remains, if all you're doing is preventing people finding out strategies that work effectively vs. other characters you're just slowing down when he'll be banned -- not preventing it. If you want to prevent it, strategies must be found that beat the best you've got. Eventually, others will find those moves too.

 

[Mew2King]

yeah it's called, you think of good ideas, and use them, and see what works and doesn't, and keep doing that to be better, and hopefully don't have people copy them which undoes a lot of the effort of you thinking that up. The stuff does take practice, but it's minimal compared to what melee took as far as practicing goes. Most people are just using MK because everyone else is, and making excuses because everyone else is. I give up. I tried to help, but I'm done, I am not posting again in this thread. Too many of you are brainwashed and will not listen. I only made this thread to help people because overswarm recommended to post it saying it will be good, but I bet he knew this would happen, I've gotten more negative feedback than good, and because of that I'm done. Most of you have been brainwashed by nonsense, and I am not going to constantly try to convince the stubborn people the truth, as I do that enough in the back room already. If you want strategies to be found, think of them yourself, 90% of the characters in Brawl have not evolved much at all anyway.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

This thread has some great information in it so I'm going to temporarily reopen it. But the thread will be closed if you guys devolve the discussion again. KEEP POSTS CONSTRUCTIVE.

 

[1048576]

Why doesn't anyone post what works against good Metaknights? I know. Because nothing does.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Can't help you here. MK is random's only counter

 

[Kenpachi]

My friend and I are working on this issue a bit. If your character has good out of shield options, its a good way to punish MK's who like to Dsmash more than once in a row.

I think this has already been mentioned by M2K, but there isn't much positive feedback going on here so I'd like to reiterate this point. A lot of MK's will dsmash more than once, possibly because they expect a dodge war. Which, granted, if you get in a dodge war vs MK's dsmash... you'll lose. So, if they expect that kind of scenario, you can jump out of your shield and use a move.

Its worked with my Ike and dair. But it does depend on the extra dsmash on MK's part. You may be able to use this tactic without depending on a second dsmash if you're character is faster than Ike. but yeah.

Thats my two cents. I really hope this thread starts going in the direction it was intended for. It would be nice to see a community effort rather than a community up in arms.

-Kenpachi

 

[XienZo]

Did anyone mention that shielding the Nado with an upward-tilted shield helps, especially with those anti-aerial characters? Olimar likes shielding Tornado.

 

[Kenpachi]

I think thats been mentioned. but everything is worth mentioning more than once. We should also remember not to try to shield two nado's in a row. MK can extend the tornado and keep relatively low to the ground, which means he can pound your shield with a near full tornado... then if you defend properly, a good MK will retreat. Remaining close to the ground means little to no landing lag so if the MK player is up for more nado action, the second will definitely cut through your shield, tilted or not.

So get something ready. Run a bit, in olimar's case he's got his ridiculous grab range along with some great disjointed hitbox aerials. Though I can't remember off the top of my head which cut through the tornado. Anyways, in short, don't go for gold and block two extended-length tornados. It hurts too much.

 

[_Phloat_]

Did anyone mention that shielding the Nado with an upward-tilted shield helps, especially with those anti-aerial characters? Olimar likes shielding Tornado.

I find good MK's will not nado at full shield, will retreat if you start doing this, or simply hit you anyways. Its a decent tip, but I prefer to run away.

Anyone else prefer that? I just get out, or jump above and hit the weak point. I shield if he starts it like right on top of me, simply because jumping is not fast enough. Hell, sometimes I let it hit me, and SDI up to a dair.

This only works because I play GaW, the lightest character, so don't take it to heart dededes.

Lets use this thread to make progress against MK, I am neutral on the debate, but I don't come here for debate.

 

[Damedesu]

So, I've been playing Kenpachi's Meta Knight for god knows how long here, and I am wondering if anyone has any insight on the scenario:

MK dsmashes, sending you to potential doom (but you've DIed). You're somewhere above the stage and either hitstunned, or have missed your air dodge, when MK follows up with fairs leading in to the inevitable shuttle loop, which is usually correctly executed. Given, I play Lucario, whose up-b would be useless in this situation. Is there an option for getting out of the fair juggle?

Sorry in advance if someone has already posted on this, it's just something that has always bothered me.

 

[Jim Morrison]

not really, you lost dame :\

 

[bluebolt]

This really needed to happen. Hopefully now people will actually try to get better instead of removing the obstacle without overcoming it.

THIS.

10char

 

[Tenki]

So, I've been playing Kenpachi's Meta Knight for god knows how long here, and I am wondering if anyone has any insight on the scenario:

MK dsmashes, sending you to potential doom (but you've DIed). You're somewhere above the stage and either hitstunned, or have missed your air dodge, when MK follows up with fairs leading in to the inevitable shuttle loop, which is usually correctly executed. Given, I play Lucario, whose up-b would be useless in this situation. Is there an option for getting out of the fair juggle?

Sorry in advance if someone has already posted on this, it's just something that has always bothered me.

If your character has the recovery to do so, DI away from him/float backwards, and if he does an approaching aerial, double jump airdodge/attack into him, then weave under him and recover. Unless it's last stock, MK only has a certain range that he can use shuttle loop without looking stupid and suiciding.


If you can read your opponent and think he'll hit you, use your up-B before your double jump so you can get better positioning.

Of course, if he's being attentive and chases after you with D-air or N-air instead of trying to set up for a shuttle loop...

good luck?

 

[Damedesu]

If your character has the recovery to do so, DI away from him/float backwards, and if he does an approaching aerial, double jump airdodge/attack into him, then weave under him and recover. Unless it's last stock, MK only has a certain range that he can use shuttle loop without looking stupid and suiciding.


If you can read your opponent and think he'll hit you, use your up-B before your double jump so you can get better positioning.

Of course, if he's being attentive and chases after you with D-air or N-air instead of trying to set up for a shuttle loop...

good luck?

Thanks, I'll give that a shot. I just seem to hit that situation and then just can't think of anything to do, so the advice helps :D

 

[da K.I.D.]

try to down air or forward air with lucario.

air dodging helps,

but if youve played him long enough and know his patterns, than a reverse double team might be the only thing that saves you

also, go fro walljumps. use ES straight at a wall and double jump ASAP

and theres still a godd chance hell just **** you anyway.

basically the only thing you cna do is try to be unpredictable

 

[Kenpachi]

DI-ing away from the stage and recovering lower is a pretty good idea. Like mentioned above, MK can only go so far before shuttle looping to his doom and looking fairly dumb. MK can reverse shuttle loop but in order to hit you with it and recover he needs to be further away from the edge than you are, so that should be predictable if the MK player begins to set that up.

When you're going for the wide and low recovery, though, watch out for Dair. I, personally, still suck at Dair gimping, but there are people that don't. In Lucario's case, using wall cling and wall jumps to mess up their judgment of where you will be and when might help. But otherwise its really hard because your upB does not have any hitboxes whatsoever.

Reverse double team is also really good when the MK player gets into the same trends over and over. Like, if the player sees that finishing you with shuttle loop consistently works, the player will have no reason to change it up, really. Don't mess with what works, right? But thats to your advantage. Wait for the next finisher shuttle loop and reverse double team. You have to activate it a bit early because it does not work right away. but don't use it too early otherwise they'll know what you're doing.

Thats about all I can think of about for now.

-Kenpachi

----------

ALSO. If the MK is concerned with getting you as far off the edge as possible (ensuring a kill at lower percentages) then you should definitely air dodge the shuttle loop AND FAST FALL TO THE EDGE. If you're lucky, they'll have positioned their shuttle loop so that it'd finish you and they'd get the edge in the end. BUT, if you do this you'll gimp MK.

How cool is that?

 

[Damedesu]

Reverse double team is also really good when the MK player gets into the same trends over and over. Like, if the player sees that finishing you with shuttle loop consistently works, the player will have no reason to change it up, really. Don't mess with what works, right? But thats to your advantage. Wait for the next finisher shuttle loop and reverse double team. You have to activate it a bit early because it does not work right away. but don't use it too early otherwise they'll know what you're doing.

My only real issue with reverse double team is if done incorrectly off the edge or at a poor location, it will lead to death anyway. Though I would probably need to spend time with someone chasing me around to really test it.

 

[The_Blue_Bomber]

Good stuff M2K, I really don't want to see Meta Knight banned... I hope this will help.

 

[Ulevo]

It's really such a shame this thread has been reduced to people entirely missing the point M2K has tried to bring across, ignoring his advice, and posting advice of their own that is either overly obvious, or is just wrong.

I would have thought that players would be smart enough to know to not do stupid things like Shield more than one nado. Once that first starts, you should immediately be thinking of a follow up, or a way to safely retreat. Why are we discussing things that really are not constructive?

Things we should be focusing on are things like how to make his dangerous and near guaranteed recovery from being less of a threat. An example of this is Falco. Falco can deal with these problems to an extent because his laser spam can hit from afar, and if Meta Knight closes in by gliding, a Nair will override Glide Attack 100% of the time. From there, the Meta Knight is forced to recover low, and it comes down to dealing with ledge tactics. That is the sort of stuff we as SWF members should be looking into. Not complaining about how broken or not broken he is, or discussing useless and obvious tactics.

This place is starting to remind me of the Pit boards.

EDIT: On that note, actually, looking for attacks that beat the Glide Attack would be a place to start. One of the reasosn Meta Knight is so good is because you simply can't gimp him, due to the thread his Glide Attack presents. If we could establish what moves can and can't beat this move, it could aid to properly closing off Meta Knight from the stage. I could see characters like Snake doing this well.

 

[clowsui]

I think a tool that could most certainly be used to help shut down Metaknight's recovery is the footstool.

Although Metaknight has a few moves that protect his "above" (UAir and NAir), you can punish those moves by using a strong horizontal move lower on the stage, usually a BAir. Ike and Falco both have very good BAirs that can go through both UAir and Nair and so punish the MK for getting too eager on the vertical recovery. Being able to footstool automatically subtracts one jump from their arsenal since the jump after the footstool will cover only a short distance. Limiting MK to lower recovery forces a Drill Rush or a risky Loop. Both of these can be edgehogged if the timing is mastered.

 

[XienZo]

I've seen the glide attack clash with the tornado before with neither being interupted, which means they had roughly the same priority. That is bad.

I guess most moves that could beat the tornado-priority wise could beat the glide attack priority wise, but there's also positioning issues.

 

[Overswarm]

Yo Mew2king!

How would you play MK dittos? There has to be some sort of weakness or opening that the other MKs have that MK can punish that they could learn from.