This...is pretty **** accurate.
lol. Technically, everyone is a bad matchup vs. MK, so even the better videos should matter as well.
The only person who goes even with MK...is MK.
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Tips vs MetaKnight
- Thread starter Mew2King
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The only person who goes even with MK...is MK.
Falco vs. MK is supposed to be a disadvantage to Falco, but not unwinnable.
Many of MK's matchups go this way, everyone says the matchup isn't heavily in MK's favor but then he wins more often than he should according to them...
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
the burden of proof lies on you
get a top metaknight to play the top player of every character 10 times, if one goes 5 and 5, guess what? he's got a neutral
theory craft all you want, he's not broken, people just need to get over themselves
so if they played 10 matchups, and sethlon didn't win 4, either A. the metaknight was actually good (probably since he did well at hobo) B. sethlon doesn't kow the matchup, or C. the matchup is wrong. they didn't play 10 matchups though, so we don't know
The best MK player doesn't go 5 out of 5, he only loses one or two before he figures out the match and wins.
See: M2K (MK) vs. NinjaLink (Diddy), since his initial win I'm pretty sure NinjaLink has failed to duplicate his victories against M2K.
Edit: Besides, it doesn't take proving the matchup charts are wrong about how disadvantaged a match is. You need to find proof that someone can actually have an advantage against MK, or everyone is still better off MK dittoing (Because they'll never run into a disadvantage the way they would with anyone else, even if they had a 50:50 vs. MK)
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
ok, except you missed the point entirely, we don't know all the matchups, we haven't had the top (insert character here) play m2k ten games to find the matchup. and even then, ever think it m2k wins because he's good? he was doing very well with dedede if i remember right
I mean, we're basing the whole "MK is broken" on one tournament where his metagame exploded.
I'm pretty sure snake took 4 out of the top 5 spots at an east coast tournament in like april-may, because his metagame developed, wait a bit, snake isn't nearly as broken as he was considered back then, and metaknight is probably not nearly as good as you want to believe. wait a while
I mean, we're basing the whole "MK is broken" on one tournament where his metagame exploded.
I'm pretty sure snake took 4 out of the top 5 spots at an east coast tournament in like april-may, because his metagame developed, wait a bit, snake isn't nearly as broken as he was considered back then, and metaknight is probably not nearly as good as you want to believe. wait a while
If it were just M2K winning consistently as MK we wouldn't be having this discussion.
And we know that nobody has found an above even matchup in what, 3 months of searching for one? How long must we wait until you'll concede nobody has an advantage vs. MK?
That's the stupidest thing I've ever read. Ever.
I agree lol
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
Its M2K and dsf, even then, m2k goes dedede (seems to get left out in the results) and dsf goes snake. name one other metaknight that has consistently won large tournaments (100+)
also, thats because for the past 3 months all everyone has done is complain about mk and theory craft about how they can't win the matchup, then demand a ban. this is why i stopped going to smashboards.
meh, i'm done with tactical discussion, i'm just going to go back to the dk boards, cause i don't have to put up with the cries of people who can't beat metaknight
also
thats how people who actually know what they're talking about get matchup data. it's called learning a matchup, try it once, then you can go back to being a moronic theory fighter
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
bigfoot cease posting please. Seriouusly. have the same player of one character face another player 10 times is not a way to dictate match ratios.
Do you not remember how M2K destroys Sheik's in Melee despite Marth being at a disadvantage?
Seriously thats just stupid.
Do you not remember how M2K destroys Sheik's in Melee despite Marth being at a disadvantage?
Seriously thats just stupid.
The only theorycraft going on these days is wild ideas about how characters can be advantaged vs. MK, that never end up working in practice.
And people spent those months actually trying things. You need to learn what "theorycraft" is before you talk about people doing it. For instance, your statement "he's not broken" is based on theorycrafting -- you have a theory that other characters can go even-advantaged vs. MK. Since you have no evidence of this, it's just your opinion.
Edit: Why does this thread keep going to MK matchups and not focused on things about MK? Like, let's try this. I heard that MK can break out of his shuttle loop at the top, is this true and if so is there any realistic way you can punish him for it if you're already set up to handle his glide attack?
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Please stop being dumb bigfoot.
I actually respect you.
I actually respect you.
LuigiKing
Smash Lord
Napilopez
Smash Lord
LuigiKing
Smash Lord
Yeah so this has been my Gfaqs account name for like 3 years, and now its like i'm copying mew2king or something. 
Napilopez
Smash Lord
Hey no way dude! I never said that, nor implied it =P I just feel like being a character king myself now =PP
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
Having King in your name makes you awesome :D
. . .
>_>
<_<
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Bowser King
. . .
>_>
<_<
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Bowser King
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Emperor>King
Sand-Trap
Smash Journeyman
When I posted the video between Sethlon and DMK, perhaps I should have put it into perspective better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm4E5h04DOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boiqcfv4rEc
Stiltz is a very good MK, even M2K said so himself: "one of the top MKs". Yet Sethlon still manages to beat one of the best MKs around with Falco.
Now, compare Stiltz to DMK...:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8xzjv3uzvU
Sethlon has more trouble against DMK than Stiltz. But I know Stiltz is a better player than DMK; I play in Houston, the same area as all of these guys. We all know Stiltz is the better player. But DMK manages to win, just because he's MK. I'm sorry, but that's bull****. The better player should win, not the other way around.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm4E5h04DOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boiqcfv4rEc
Stiltz is a very good MK, even M2K said so himself: "one of the top MKs". Yet Sethlon still manages to beat one of the best MKs around with Falco.
Now, compare Stiltz to DMK...:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8xzjv3uzvU
Sethlon has more trouble against DMK than Stiltz. But I know Stiltz is a better player than DMK; I play in Houston, the same area as all of these guys. We all know Stiltz is the better player. But DMK manages to win, just because he's MK. I'm sorry, but that's bull****. The better player should win, not the other way around.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
im going to start keeping a tab of all the people on smashboards that i automatically agree with because they always seem to be right.
for the record, salaboB just got added to my list
for the record, salaboB just got added to my list
I'm not understanding your argument. What does this have to do with MK? Sethlon beat a good MK, but lost to a worse one, so MK should be banned? That doesn't make sense at all...
I think that's what he was trying to say overall.Sand-Trap said:
Kirby M.D.
Smash Journeyman
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Ever stop to think that Seth just had an off day/match?
M2K was dead on, too many people are going Chicken Little over Meta being insanely popular, easy to pick up, and very good. Thank you very much for the info M2K, even if you aren't reading the thread anymore.
M2K was dead on, too many people are going Chicken Little over Meta being insanely popular, easy to pick up, and very good. Thank you very much for the info M2K, even if you aren't reading the thread anymore.
Hey...
MKs can have off days too you know.
It's just that they can still kick ***, because the errors they make are much more difficult to capitalize on due to MK's properties.
MK's insanely popular, easy to pick up, has no sure-fire counterpick (character OR level), and has several other very good properties that makes him a threat regardless of the person playing him.
There's good reason for people to go insane over MK's abilites. They're too good.
So what I've seen from the top level videos that people fighting MK have to deal with:
Short hop dairs
Shuttle loop gimping
Shuttle loop -> glide attack
Glide attacks (Just from jumping), usually an aerial approach
Tornadoes when you're out of position to use your common punishers - not getting hit with the start that pops you out, but getting caught soon after and sucked in.
Is it possible to break your shuttle loop at the top? It was earlier in this thread someone said it was, but nobody has verified that. If it is, that's another thing you have to deal with against really good MKs because they'll be able to use it to dodge shuttle loop punishment and punish you instead.
How do we get around these things?
Glide attacks appear to be unsafe on block, so you can block and punish them. The problem is when it's mixed up and the MK cuts off early so you whiff your punishment and then get grabbed. Is there a way anyone has found to reliably force a punishment or dodge when they cut it early but still hit them when they don't?
Also, since a lot of the methods of dealing with MK are retreating until he does something punishable (And then he pushes you off the edge) how do you get back *past* MK so you have a full stage to retreat across again? Is there any reliable way to do this?
Let's get some tips worked out, if it's at all possible, that are actually useful against good MK players who won't just stupidly do the same thing over and over but actually mindgame you in return. Or let's figure out there really isn't any way you can reliably deal with it except by getting lucky and guessing which of any given set of options they'll do. Either way, can we maybe talk about tips and ways to deal with MK and leave the ban discussion in either of the two threads more specifically about it?
Short hop dairs
Shuttle loop gimping
Shuttle loop -> glide attack
Glide attacks (Just from jumping), usually an aerial approach
Tornadoes when you're out of position to use your common punishers - not getting hit with the start that pops you out, but getting caught soon after and sucked in.
Is it possible to break your shuttle loop at the top? It was earlier in this thread someone said it was, but nobody has verified that. If it is, that's another thing you have to deal with against really good MKs because they'll be able to use it to dodge shuttle loop punishment and punish you instead.
How do we get around these things?
Glide attacks appear to be unsafe on block, so you can block and punish them. The problem is when it's mixed up and the MK cuts off early so you whiff your punishment and then get grabbed. Is there a way anyone has found to reliably force a punishment or dodge when they cut it early but still hit them when they don't?
Also, since a lot of the methods of dealing with MK are retreating until he does something punishable (And then he pushes you off the edge) how do you get back *past* MK so you have a full stage to retreat across again? Is there any reliable way to do this?
Let's get some tips worked out, if it's at all possible, that are actually useful against good MK players who won't just stupidly do the same thing over and over but actually mindgame you in return. Or let's figure out there really isn't any way you can reliably deal with it except by getting lucky and guessing which of any given set of options they'll do. Either way, can we maybe talk about tips and ways to deal with MK and leave the ban discussion in either of the two threads more specifically about it?
But his argument doesn't conclusively say that, since the best player won one match and lost another. The only reasonable conclusion from those videos is that Sethlon had an off day. It happens.
In other news, salaboB has a good list of things to look into. This is what we should be doing. Look for things that cause problems and then specifically work to correct them. Even if MK can come up with a counter to your counter, it just becomes a mindgame contest, which is more often won by the better player. This is pushing us towards the goal we desire, no?
Jason, unsurprisingly, most of what you said had already been said in the "Should MK be banned"-thread (though not as eloquently or in such detail). Nobody cared. They just acted as if no way to beat MK's moves existed.
∫unk
Smash Master
Only idiots are suggesting that, yet you take their opinions as if they represent all pro-ban members.
I made a nice list a few posts up of moves/approaches I hadn't seen addressed yet.
Help us figure out ways to beat them reliably.
Alternatively, admit they're unbeatable except by lucky prediction and quit saying they can be realistically dealt with. Really, there's only two ways things can go
Because MK certainly isn't versatile enough to have an answer to all of these so called counters. Wait.
Not trying to discredit his knowledge, and I do like this thread (spoonfeeding ftw!) but to post such things and expecting all arguments to suddenly find a halt is just foolish.
Not trying to discredit his knowledge, and I do like this thread (spoonfeeding ftw!) but to post such things and expecting all arguments to suddenly find a halt is just foolish.
*whatever* *faulty post*
Actually, quite a few "non-idiots" ignored what we said and kept repeating the same things over and over.
I'll give you 60 seconds of time:I made a nice list a few posts up of moves/approaches I hadn't seen addressed yet.
Help us figure out ways to beat them reliably.
Alternatively, admit they're unbeatable except by lucky prediction and quit saying they can be realistically dealt with. Really, there's only two ways things can go
Short hop dairs - What, this is unbeatable? How about shield? And since when is a character broken if they have safe approaches? So what if he's got things that are perfectly safe? Everyone has some. This thread is here to prove that not everything MK has is safe and/or unbeatable.
Shuttle loop gimping - Just don't leave yourself open so much? I don't constantly get U-tilted against Snakes because I just don't put myself in a position where that will happen. I don't get Up B-gimped by Marth because I don't leave myself open for that. I don't get Lightning Kicked by Zelda... I don't get... just don't leave yourself open. Some things are good and fast. Just don't constantly leave yourself open.
Shuttle loop -> glide attack - Yes, because obviously this is really broken and in no way defendable against.
Glide attacks (Just from jumping), usually an aerial approach - They lag slightly. Punish as you see fit.
Tornadoes when you're out of position to use your common punishers - not getting hit with the start that pops you out, but getting caught soon after and - Then just don't get hit by it all the time in order to DI out and punish. Shield it and then punish.
Really, what was the point of this post? To show that Meta Knight has things are are unpunishable both on block and/or hit? Wow, how horrible. There are many things which are unpunishable in Brawl and that are quite good. Deal with it, learn to not constantly get hit by it or leave opportunities where you'll get hit by it.
Good job, you fail. Feel free to try again if you think you could provide something actually useful.
Please quit saying "MK's moves can be dealt with" if you don't have any way to actually deal with them other than say "Don't leave yourself open" -- that's useless advice. The point of the thread is to discuss ways to deal with it, so ways of dealing with MK's safest/unpunishable moves should be the focus of the thread. How do you "not leave yourself open" to MK? How do you keep him out of position to be able to utilize these moves until he shield stabs you? Can we have anything besides "don't get hit!"?
How about addressing how to get away from being crowded up to the edge? How do you get past MK so you have room to retreat again until he makes a mistake? Can you even provide realistic ways to deal with that one?
How'd a CONTRIBUTIONS thread turn into a debate?
And lol, salabo, you should ask Yuna, "Oh noes, I play as MK but I can't use my shuttle loop because they never leave themselves open and they keep on punishing my glide attack! They keep on DIing out of my tornado and shield and punish! Whatever shall I do?"
And lol, salabo, you should ask Yuna, "Oh noes, I play as MK but I can't use my shuttle loop because they never leave themselves open and they keep on punishing my glide attack! They keep on DIing out of my tornado and shield and punish! Whatever shall I do?"
Again I ask (as I just did), what was the point of bringing those things up? This thread is not about pointing out that everything Meta has can be "dealt with" as that would be a lie. This thread is about pointing out what he has that can be dealt with. You bringing up things that cannot be dealt with is just an inflammatory attempt to turn this thread into yet another pro-ban thread when it's just here to show off common knowledge that eludes so many on these boards.
Also, several of the moves you brought up can be dealt with. For one thing, since when are shorthopped Dairs super-powerful? What the hell is your definition of "can't be dealt with", anyway? That they're safe on block?
Horrible, I know.
Again, you ignore my response (As usual).
Don't just look at the move and go "Oh it's safe on block". That's useless. The majority of moves in this game are safe on block, but that doesn't mean you can just block them constantly.
Answer how to prevent him getting in position to utilize those. Answer how you can react if MK *does* catch you while he's dair spamming, what do you do if he's in a spot slightly above you where you don't have an attack and he hits your shield? Can you spot dodge a second? Can you roll away? Can you jump and hit him if you have a fast nair? Or are you doomed to soak the hit and should take it at a point of your choice so you can DI better after it?
You need more of an example? At what point during a glide attack do you want to launch your attack to hit him, if any? Are you better off retreating? If you try to shield it, how do you avoid getting grabbed by the MK if he ends it early by steering into the ground then dash grabs you? Does spot dodging help at all against it, or does it end too soon and you'll get hit coming out of it (Or grabbed) if the MK times it well? Look at all these possible points of advice for glide attack that you offered so little feedback for except a sarcastic response.
This is untrue, because if it weren't someone would just use these unstoppable moves over and over and MK would never lose. Obviously all of his moves can be dealt with in some manner, so why don't we work on ways that can be done that can be used as a general approach for most characters?
And again I ask: What does this matter? There are plenty of characters with plenty of things that will work either safely on block or just connect. So what if Meta Knight has them? This thread deals with the stuff he has that can be dealt with.
Why are you bringing up other stuff? Also, since when is shorthop Dair lightning fast and really hard to not get caught up in? Since when is it even very good on hit?
Who would consistently just shield the Glide Attack and then just stand there while he dash grabs you? One must be very poor reflexes to fall for that. There's always rolling or shieldhopped aerials or shielddroped smashes and tilts.
You weren't specific. You just said "Glide attack". Was I to extrapolate that as "All of Metas options concering Glide Attack"?
And that's the point of this thread, really.
Wrong thread and in what alternate universe?
This matters because this is a thread for tips on how to deal with Meta Knight. Since it was totally derailed and people were bringing the "Ban MK" discussion here, I've decided to try to bring it back to its point. Thus I listed a series of attacks that people may have difficulty with (ie, that I saw being used effectively in videos of skilled MK players) and requested ways to deal with them -- not just "What do you do when MK begins this" but "How do you prevent him getting into position to use it effectively" (Which I said twice now and you ignored both times and frankly, I'm getting really tired of you asking "What does this matter?" when I've already explained my reasoning.)
This is the first useful thing you've said in response to my list of attacks.
So, which of those options can you do before MK can respond and press his attack or evade the punishment? He's got very low lag on his moves so a lot of those won't result in an effective response -- which actually work?
And finally, how self contradictory are you? Watch these quotes:
But then at the start of this post where you ended by acknowledging that everything MK has must be beatable or he'd just use the unbeatable move to defeat everyone, you said:
which again implies that MK has moves that can't be dealt with. You responded to me refuting that one in the same post as you said it at the start. You can't have it both ways -- either you're completely refusing to answer why MK doesn't have moves that are unbeatable and just trying to slip off with an answer that only pretends to agree, or you're disagreeing with yourself. And you can clearly see how you're implying agreement with my statement that all his moves can be dealt with in some manner -- if you can't, there will really be no point in me talking to you anymore because it would mean you have no idea what the words you're using actually mean.
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