Tier List without MK?

[Yung Mei]

i've been wondering for a while, what would the tier list look like without MK?

Reason being, i've heard several times "X would be higher tier if it wasnt for MK"

well, how would it look like lol

 

[Kunx990]

The same, then everyone will say Snake is broken.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

The same, then everyone will say Snake is broken.

I'm sorry, but do you think before you post? Snake has some legitimately bad matchups, unlike MK. Snake is a great character, but will never be considered broken. This isn't April '08.

Also, the tier list would not be the same. There are a good number of characters that get outright ***** by MK and have decent matchups overall (Marth comes to mind). They would all move up a decent amount.

This could probably be in the MK discussion, by the way.

 

[Kaffei]

I bet a lot of Marths would appear

 

[REL38]

More character diversity

Meaning, a rise in characters such as D3, Marth and some Mid-Tier folk
Since they won't get knocked outta the bracket by MK anymore

 

[A2ZOMG]

A bunch of other upper tier characters, and I think most importantly the Ice Climbers would see a lot more popularity. Otherwise the tier list itself really wouldn't change that much since Metaknight himself doesn't usually end up being specifically the worst matchup for most characters except for other already formidable characters.

I would assume however that the "high tier" would increase in size by a bit.

 

[DarkISDA]

I think Marth would get in the top 3 of the tier list.

 

[stingers]

ROB would go up a lot :3 his only bad matchup would be DDD...who to be fair would also see a lot more usage. But ROB won't be beneath Pit anymore loooooooool

 

[Sovereign]

I think Marth would get in the top 3 of the tier list.

I'm with you on that one. Marth goes pretty even with almost everyone.

Question, who's worst MU is MK, though?

 

[stingers]

ROB for sure...and DDD maybe?

 

[Damage Points]

wario for life nuccas!!

sorry i had to

 

[SFA Smiley]

I know MK wrecks peach

 

[Ussi]

The only difference i see right away is like DDD and wario switching

other than that would take intensive discussion not worth it since its only hypothetical.

 

[-Ran]

The shifts would be that the characters that give Snake bad match ups are suddenly not getting wrecked by MK. Thus you see more Falcos, D3s, Olimars, and even Pikachus entering into the vs Snake match up. Due to the increase of D3s, you'll have more Falcos/Olimars, and then characters to counter then would rise. Marth would also find himself getting a playstyle boost, but he'd find himself having a bit more trouble against the hordes of D3s since he cannot operate above D3's grab like MK can.

The counter picking aspects of the game would become drastically more used. I bet that most matches would start off with double blind picks to avoid bad match ups that would occur even within the best characters of the game. Snake actually benefits the MOST out of all the characters for MK not being banned since MK has a knack for defeating many of the characters that have match ups that tilt in their favor vs Snake. Without MK to protect him from D3s, Snake would falter. While Marth, a character that has his worst match up in MK would rise quickly.

 

[Seagull Joe]

The shifts would be that the characters that give Snake bad match ups are suddenly not getting wrecked by MK. Thus you see more Falcos, D3s, Olimars, and even Pikachus entering into the vs Snake match up. Due to the increase of D3s, you'll have more Falcos/Olimars, and then characters to counter then would rise. Marth would also find himself getting a playstyle boost, but he'd find himself having a bit more trouble against the hordes of D3s since he cannot operate above D3's grab like MK can.

The counter picking aspects of the game would become drastically more used. I bet that most matches would start off with double blind picks to avoid bad match ups that would occur even within the best characters of the game. Snake actually benefits the MOST out of all the characters for MK not being banned since MK has a knack for defeating many of the characters that have match ups that tilt in their favor vs Snake. Without MK to protect him from D3s, Snake would falter. While Marth, a character that has his worst match up in MK would rise quickly.

This post couldn't be better worded and correct.

 

[Ussi]

All characters would rise in use with MK banned, it's impossible to tell where they will stand on the tier list without actually results. I only saw Wario going down cause he's unpopular as it is

 

[solecalibur]

I'm with you on that one. Marth goes pretty even with almost everyone.

Question, who's worst MU is MK, though?

Snake, Diddy, Wario, Marth, ROB, Toonlink, Pit?, Olimar
Im sure I can go on with some that completely get wreck'd but are not there worse MU

 

[Mew2King]

snake diddy wario... no no no, they all do quite well against him

 

[-Ran]

In fact, it's because they at least approach even [or better pending the percents MK is at: such as Snake when MK is at 110% suddenly becoming drastically better] in the match up that make them the next best characters in the game.

 

[JOE!]

The shifts would be that the characters that give Snake bad match ups are suddenly not getting wrecked by MK. Thus you see more Falcos, D3s, Olimars, and even Pikachus entering into the vs Snake match up. Due to the increase of D3s, you'll have more Falcos/Olimars, and then characters to counter then would rise. Marth would also find himself getting a playstyle boost, but he'd find himself having a bit more trouble against the hordes of D3s since he cannot operate above D3's grab like MK can.

The counter picking aspects of the game would become drastically more used. I bet that most matches would start off with double blind picks to avoid bad match ups that would occur even within the best characters of the game. Snake actually benefits the MOST out of all the characters for MK not being banned since MK has a knack for defeating many of the characters that have match ups that tilt in their favor vs Snake. Without MK to protect him from D3s, Snake would falter. While Marth, a character that has his worst match up in MK would rise quickly.

so, without Mk we'd get a complex top-level game with a web of matchups...

but with Mk we get essentially only MK, Snake, and the occasional Diddy or such placing because MK allows Snake to win because Snake pays him for protection?

...

 

[-Ran]

Pretty much. The MK Mafia is too good.

 

[JOE!]

Pretty much. The MK Mafia is too good.

 

[Sovereign]

snake diddy wario... no no no, they all do quite well against him

Since you posted, who would you play as, if MK were to be banned? I've seen you use Marth and DDD, at Nope's, when we did the side tourney, but that was just a side event, for fun.

And yeah, I don't think most to all of the high tier characters have MK as their worst MU. I want to know who MK's best MU is, and who's got MK set as their worst MU.

Characters like Ganondorf don't have MK as their worst MU, and it holds true that he's not, ICs and Sheik are.

 

[napZzz]

stop being cool Ran.

I think marth could be the best character. No joke. Besides mk (and snake is debatable), his only bad matchup is like....DDD or soemthing. He even/beats the rest of the cast i'm pretty sure....

DDD would see more usage because mk is gone and snake/marth would do better, but then alot falcos/olimars could probably show up to deal with that too like ran said....**** would be interesting AND BALANCED COUGH COUGH

 

[etecoon]

marth loses to more characters than that BUT DDD is the only really really bad one after MK IMO, so he's like snake with a few disadvantages but only one or two that are real bad. I think marth/snake/IC's/Wario are top 4 if MK is banned, no particular order. but that's just an off the top of my head theory, no one really knows

diddy is massively inflated by having a good MK matchup, I still think he's top 10 but not top 3 like he is now

MLG is doing everything in it's power to destroy diddy anyway(CAN HANENBOW BE LEGAL NEXT TIME!?) so he might not last at #3 anyway lol

 

[Sovereign]

stop being cool Ran.

I think marth could be the best character. No joke. Besides mk (and snake is debatable), his only bad matchup is like....DDD or soemthing. He even/beats the rest of the cast i'm pretty sure....

DDD would see more usage because mk is gone and snake/marth would do better, but then alot falcos/olimars could probably show up to deal with that too like ran said....**** would be interesting AND BALANCED COUGH COUGH

QFT.

This is very interesting, seeing as majority of the best players in different regions use MK. What would happen if he were to actually be banned from use for a while... like a year or so? Marth, imo, would definitely make top or at least second spot. Then would come DDD or Snake, followed by Wario/Diddy/ICs/Falco, in no particular order. The final four I listed each have noticeable flaws about their gameplay that when exploited turns a match into hell for them, which is why they tie for fourth on my list.

 

[Mota]

Metaknight is Toon Links worst matchup. 65-35 MK favour.

Without Mk Toon has a much better chance in tourneys. Although a few TLs have been placing pretty high, taking 1st as well.

It would be nice to see more diversity and balance...

 

[Damage Points]

Wario isn't unpopular. He's just as popular as ICs or Pikachus. I mean how many of those do you see in tourneys? There are none where I live and there were 3 warios at the last tourney I went to. It's so region dependent.

 

[Majority]

Brawl would be so cool without MetaKnight. So many more characters would be tournament-viable.

 

[stingers]

Brawl would be so cool without MetaKnight. So many more characters would be tournament-viable.

yeah, too bad we're stuck with him.
(we should def. put items on tho)

 

[cheeseball540]

well the way my friend play yoshi its pretty darn good soo i think yoshi would be on the top if you want to see why see how miamisportsfan45 does his majic with yoshi

 

[JOE!]

well the way my friend play yoshi its pretty darn good soo i think yoshi would be on the top if you want to see why see how miamisportsfan45 does his majic with yoshi

problem is that GW and Marth give him lots of trouble still, but even with them he has no "terrible" match-ups

he is just really weird to play and nobody of "epic" calibur plays him :/

 

[PK-ow!]

The case immediately surrounding Snake's condition has been made. It'd either be him or Marth taking top spot - Snake, because he's that **** good when not countered, and STILL has bloated numbers (like damage, weight, and range); or Marth, because he's so consistent across matchups, and is 50/50 with Snake. These are the properties putting MK up there right now, after all (though MK's numbers are power, speed, and priority).


I think the only other thing to say is, between the A tier characters, everything the game needs to shutdown any other character from borderline tier or lower is still there.

If Marth increases in popularity, there goes any character with range or priority problems. If Falco appears more in the wake of the top tier movements, he's pretty much the answer to anyone D tier or lower, for the simple fact that he defines how the game is played if the opponent doesn't have anything "gayer" than his laser, and Falco is rather good at playing Falco's game.


And the big guys - Ice Climbers, D3, Diddy - they'll keep out anyone without the good keep-away (pacing control), without anti-grab, and without reliable power, respectively. That's pretty much the issue with anyone who is low on the tier list already in this game.

For instance, Link's toughest matchup is probably Meta Knight. But Link still sucks. His slowness is pressured by ICs the same way MK pressures him now, and he's gimped by anything that can spell 'offstage'. Some character, somewhere in the big leagues, has what says no to the low tiers.



Ice Climbers alone would probably be the new MK for any character who is worse than 3:7 with the tiny bat. Any exception to this - but, I think, ONLY exceptions to this - would find room to rise up around their peers. They'd still not break out of C and D tiers. So if Toon Link really is 'alright' against things that aren't MK, maybe he would be one such character.


So yeah, there would be a lot more of A tier characters because the matchups in Brawl don't overturn the general strengths that put them there, and there would be just proportionally more of everything else (assuming MK players switch and don't ragequit).


*~*~*~
Personally I think Pikachu's representation isn't accounted for by Pikachu's abilities but by people getting consistently mindgamed into believing Pikachu can actually do something. Like Sonic.

 

[Seagull Joe]

stop being cool Ran.

I think marth could be the best character. No joke. Besides mk (and snake is debatable), his only bad matchup is like....DDD or soemthing. He even/beats the rest of the cast i'm pretty sure....

DDD would see more usage because mk is gone and snake/marth would do better, but then alot falcos/olimars could probably show up to deal with that too like ran said....**** would be interesting AND BALANCED COUGH COUGH

Marth is 45-55 with Snake. Bad against Ice climbers. He gets beat by Mk and D3. He also goes even with Wolf or slight disadvantage.

well the way my friend play yoshi its pretty darn good soo i think yoshi would be on the top if you want to see why see how miamisportsfan45 does his majic with yoshi

Yoshi loses to like everyone except Ganon,Jiggz, and Falcon.

snake diddy wario... no no no, they all do quite well camping against him till he ***** them with his infinite approaches

Fixed.

 

[tuestresfat]

Marth is 45-55 with Snake. Bad against Ice climbers. He gets beat by Mk and D3. He also goes even with Wolf or slight disadvantage.

That's debatable, but we all know it's pretty darn close to even right now.
D3 isn't nearly as bad for marth as MK is.
lol why would you throw wolf in there, he goes close to even with a bunch of characters. besides, wolf has a lot of other things he should be worrying about than marth.

 

[pkmntrainer]

ya i would say Ice Climbers, Snake, and Marth would be the new God Tier... sadly, Pokemon Trainer wont be moving up too much since he already does fairly well against MK

 

[Kaffei]

ya i would say Ice Climbers, Snake, and Marth would be the new God Tier... sadly, Pokemon Trainer wont be moving up too much since he already does fairly well against MK

Since when does PT do well vs MK

 

[stingers]

squirtle does good on MK.

 

[Kaffei]

squirtle does good on MK.

Then say squirtle

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Nobody has mentioned Bowser?

Oh, right. Most people still have the Melee-complex when it comes to Bowser, I almost forgot.

Not that I don't need practice.