Ripple
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- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
sounds like me
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Player -0
Smash Hero
*takes notes*
high level mentality is insane.
I can't keep up
high level mentality is insane.
I can't keep up
Hell, you can throw away the first 8 min and get another 8 min to still figure it out. The glory of sets
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Play diddy and out camp you
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
or play ivy and heal off waddles
Sadface
Smash Apprentice
Yes, I was in the suite for a while, then everything moved to my room near the end. Darkrain was drunk and it was funny but he was also being too loud. Yeah hopefully a better time frame will be done next time, but I understand the need to schedule around other events.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Lmao Darkrain and some other smasher betting against Bobby Frizz saying they'd double his money. Dude ended up making $420 (140x3) and getting more than Plup (he got just under $300 iirc).
Speaking of Falcon, where do you guys think he is? Some people say he's busted because of his SideB recovery and easy knees. Others say he's bad (Hax)
The Baron
Smash Apprentice
He's good, but I'm biased because his Nair is such a good move. As DMG said, it's probably the best projectile in the game. Speaking of which, what are his bad match ups besides the intergalactic furry squadron
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
bad MUs for falcon: all the spacies (birds arent furry, btw
), MK, roy, tink, shiek, and DDD. im less sure on these next ones, but I would put diddy, sonic, pikachu, and possibly squirtle up for contenders for bad falcon MUs as well. maybe ROB too? ill leave it up to people who know those MUs better to give you some better insight regarding them.
List is kinda wrong. I'll go over most of those chars
Your best shot is getting good at MK, the MU plays itself without a whole ton of nuance. Grab for tech chase, Nair to stuff, edgeguard with any move. Spacies, Shiek, all other Falcon "counters" require a ton of nuance or experience.
Take PM ratings with a grain of salt: bigger tourneys are kinda about avoiding cheesy lame MU's or picking chars with as few as possible. Some MU's might be rated say 6/4, but still kill tournament brackets really hard. Having a disadvantage means losing + not succumbing to MU inexperience (even great players may not be good at more than ~20 MU's in PM for their character)
MK- Yes this sucks, dumb char. No real hope on smaller stages, only chance is FD/PS2/larger stages and try to outplay neutral (aka hope they kinda mess up)
Roy- Pretty evenish, requires exhaustive MU knowledge. Otherwise, watching Lunchables vs x Falcon would look 7:3
Tink- Falcon wins, ask Lunchables
Shiek- much smaller edge than Melee, some advantage expected but variable
DDD- Like even until you're as good as Ripple (not sure anyone else could prove DDD edge in practice)
Diddy- Not sure what to rate. Could reasonably come to conclusion from Even to Solid Diddy advantage
Sonic- Evenish, better player should win
Pika- Not sure how stages and PM mechanics impact this MU, inclined to say pretty even
Squirtle- Even or small Falcon edge, *hugely* stage dependent and assumes both chars are playing quite lame
ROB- Everyone puts this at Falcon +1 or +2, I see it at 0 or barely +1, not many Falcon's play DF or Oracle and then say "yeah total +2 man ezpz"
Spacies: All win, advantages not nearly as severe as Melee (each MU reasonably winnable in practice for PM ((where are amazing Fox PM players tho)), Falco or Wolf being the easiest to beat from the trio)
Roy- Pretty evenish, requires exhaustive MU knowledge. Otherwise, watching Lunchables vs x Falcon would look 7:3
Tink- Falcon wins, ask Lunchables
Shiek- much smaller edge than Melee, some advantage expected but variable
DDD- Like even until you're as good as Ripple (not sure anyone else could prove DDD edge in practice)
Diddy- Not sure what to rate. Could reasonably come to conclusion from Even to Solid Diddy advantage
Sonic- Evenish, better player should win
Pika- Not sure how stages and PM mechanics impact this MU, inclined to say pretty even
Squirtle- Even or small Falcon edge, *hugely* stage dependent and assumes both chars are playing quite lame
ROB- Everyone puts this at Falcon +1 or +2, I see it at 0 or barely +1, not many Falcon's play DF or Oracle and then say "yeah total +2 man ezpz"
Spacies: All win, advantages not nearly as severe as Melee (each MU reasonably winnable in practice for PM ((where are amazing Fox PM players tho)), Falco or Wolf being the easiest to beat from the trio)
Your best shot is getting good at MK, the MU plays itself without a whole ton of nuance. Grab for tech chase, Nair to stuff, edgeguard with any move. Spacies, Shiek, all other Falcon "counters" require a ton of nuance or experience.
Take PM ratings with a grain of salt: bigger tourneys are kinda about avoiding cheesy lame MU's or picking chars with as few as possible. Some MU's might be rated say 6/4, but still kill tournament brackets really hard. Having a disadvantage means losing + not succumbing to MU inexperience (even great players may not be good at more than ~20 MU's in PM for their character)
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Avro-Arrow
Smash Journeyman
I dunno I kind of find Sheik : Falcon even-ish even in melee. I'd say even in PM but whatever.
Also can confirm that Sonic Falcon is even. The neutral is in Sonic's favour possibly and he's got really great edge guards on Falcon and better ways to set them up than most, plus nice confirms off of grab and great tech chases. Sonic's hard to catch for Falcon because spin moves make him hard to nair and whatnot but once he touches Sonic he should die. Fun matchup imo.
Also can confirm that Sonic Falcon is even. The neutral is in Sonic's favour possibly and he's got really great edge guards on Falcon and better ways to set them up than most, plus nice confirms off of grab and great tech chases. Sonic's hard to catch for Falcon because spin moves make him hard to nair and whatnot but once he touches Sonic he should die. Fun matchup imo.
Sheik's one of the biggest c-blocks stopping Falcon from National success in Melee. I would never subscribe to the view that this = "evenish". May need to come up with more relevant MU definitions for Falcon's MUs if evenish is used to describe a decade long bracket killer.
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wizzrobe and M2K face fairly often in melee, and if you're rooting for falcon, it's pretty depressing to watch
though, now I'm wondering if falcon being able to at least mildly mix up his recovery in PM could help a bit. once wizzrobe's off stage, it seems next to impossible to actually get back on
though, now I'm wondering if falcon being able to at least mildly mix up his recovery in PM could help a bit. once wizzrobe's off stage, it seems next to impossible to actually get back on
Falcon Sheik MU is more doable in PM because of stages, recovery buffs (not just Side B, but Upb is pretty buffed from Melee), and stuff like dash mechanic changes. Still kinda brutal once grabbed or offstage, but it takes a bit more finesse and not as blatant of a GG.
Avro-Arrow
Smash Journeyman
1) Sheik being a killer of Falcon for ten years isn't exactly relevant although it sounds convincing at a first glance. Remember how Pika was considered a Peach counter? Link being 70-30 on Peach? Pretty ridiculous notions considering Link Peach is even and Pika gets **** on by Peach.
2) Even now the other classic Sheik win, Marth, is being questioned on how even the MU is. A lot of speculation points to a more even MU. Same for Sheik Peach (it's 50/50 except Sheik has a marginal advantage in neutral when played correctly by both sides), and same for Sheik Puff (good walling ability by Sheik makes it more even than previously thought). Is Sheik Falco 40-60 or 45-55? Not sure, depends how much you weigh tech chase on reaction and the ease of securing a grab. Depends how you weigh laser counterplay and how well Falco is able to capitalize on SDI.
Sheik Falcon has always taken finesse from both players, Sheik just happens to have the win a lot easier at a low level when Falcon doesn't know how to properly play around ftilt in neutral, SDI jab resets on dthrow, and play neutral safely in general. If the Falcon plays smart, so should Sheik if the player is to have any shot at winning.
Do I have bias? Yes. But still, it's not a free MU and Falcon has the ability to work around what Sheik has. Do I think Sheik wins? Yeah, by a little bit. But Falcons in general have a long way to go in terms of optimizing their character.
2) Even now the other classic Sheik win, Marth, is being questioned on how even the MU is. A lot of speculation points to a more even MU. Same for Sheik Peach (it's 50/50 except Sheik has a marginal advantage in neutral when played correctly by both sides), and same for Sheik Puff (good walling ability by Sheik makes it more even than previously thought). Is Sheik Falco 40-60 or 45-55? Not sure, depends how much you weigh tech chase on reaction and the ease of securing a grab. Depends how you weigh laser counterplay and how well Falco is able to capitalize on SDI.
Sheik Falcon has always taken finesse from both players, Sheik just happens to have the win a lot easier at a low level when Falcon doesn't know how to properly play around ftilt in neutral, SDI jab resets on dthrow, and play neutral safely in general. If the Falcon plays smart, so should Sheik if the player is to have any shot at winning.
Do I have bias? Yes. But still, it's not a free MU and Falcon has the ability to work around what Sheik has. Do I think Sheik wins? Yeah, by a little bit. But Falcons in general have a long way to go in terms of optimizing their character.
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_Chrome
Smash Ace
Tomaster
Smash Journeyman
Good thing you play Meta Knight :DThe only thing I'd like to point outtrash? , and I'm sure you know this, is that M2K and Wizzrobe aren't exactly on the same skill plane. As for my personal opinion I think it's "pretty depressing" to see triple knees.
Knee can be annoying but to some chars he dies just as easy as he kills.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
sheik definitely beats falcon, and falcon definitely beats marth. sheik vs marth is probably about even though. sheik vs falco seems pretty even too.
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TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
D
Deleted member
Guest
PM, but realistically melee isn't far off. falcon vs marth is closer in melee, and falco beats sheik solidly, but marth vs sheik is still even and sheik still beats CF
Tomaster
Smash Journeyman
How underdeveloped is wolf? Do you guys think he can be top 2?
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Wolf is really good
Not that underdeveloped, we know a large majority of his tools and such, just he doesn't have the strongest playerbase. Switch is putting in work though, and neon's work schedule is changing so he might play for real again.
But yeah he has tools for almost every situation, counter-counterplay out the ass, and a rediculously positive mu spread. Fox/falco/marth/samus/peach are all even to 40/60 their favor, he goes even with or beats pretty much everyone else
Not that underdeveloped, we know a large majority of his tools and such, just he doesn't have the strongest playerbase. Switch is putting in work though, and neon's work schedule is changing so he might play for real again.
But yeah he has tools for almost every situation, counter-counterplay out the ass, and a rediculously positive mu spread. Fox/falco/marth/samus/peach are all even to 40/60 their favor, he goes even with or beats pretty much everyone else
Life
Smash Hero
I'd wager Wolf might actually beat Peach. Might be that I just underestimate the character though, since I play as Marth against her in Melee which is a super comfortable matchup, and nobody in the area plays PM Peach.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
the only thing preventing wolf from currently being the best character in the game is the 12 more years of development that fox has
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
But in 12 years fox will be sitting at 25 years of development
Just kidding, fox players hands will all fall off by 2020
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PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
that implies that there's a linear correlation when we all know it's far closer to exponential
Life
Smash Hero
I think the lack of a long-lasting hitbox like Fox/Falco holds Wolf back more than just the space-animals-vs-the-world metagame held over from Melee. The sheer number of recovery options Fox can cover with one back air from the ledge is one example. SHFFL nair from both of those characters and SHFFL dair from Falco (moreso in NTSC Melee) are also things that Wolf lacks. His nair does 2% and near-zero KB if it trades; everything else besides laser requires precise timing and decision making.
If Wolf had Falco dair he'd be broken beyond belief.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
That would be more significant tho if wolf didn't also have several other things going for him that the other spacies don't have
Like longer standing reach, longer SH reach an general burst range, better air movement stats and quicker aerials letting him go much deeper for edgeguards to cover recovery options before they branch, among various combination traits like having an approximation of falco's laser with an approximation of Fox's speed
He's not strictly down from the other spacies for lack of lingering hitboxes given those bonus traits and im not convinced he loses significantly to them either
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PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
I think fox and falco's strength comes from their really good options that kinda power over the majority of things
I think that wolf's strength comes from his ability to be abiguous (same thing with diddy) and have a slew of options that offer more coverage with less committing than fox or falco
but decision-making is hard so wolf won't be as dominant
I think that wolf's strength comes from his ability to be abiguous (same thing with diddy) and have a slew of options that offer more coverage with less committing than fox or falco
but decision-making is hard so wolf won't be as dominant
Its Fox Wolf Falco for goodness, though top 5 is super crowded. Argument that Wolf would top if he also had 12 years seems flawed: 12 years is a lot of time to learn optimal DI + SDI against flash, his Shine, etc. Meta may evolve to where people slightly in the air SDI down and tech Wolf DACUS, then grab him for it. Never take hardcore meta advancement for granted
Stuff like that is how people get to 20GX and say Falcon is the best char in Melee (AKA whut??!?)
Stuff like that is how people get to 20GX and say Falcon is the best char in Melee (AKA whut??!?)
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
So fox WONT be at 25+ years development by the time wolf is at 12 because exponents? Lolwut
Player -0
Smash Hero
So dash dancing is weird.
Lingering hitboxes are useful for reading dash ins while being generally imprecise but lose to more precise dashing. Dashing trades with dashing depending on stage control and tools but is a lot more precise. That's not including walling and stuff.
Is my general idea for dash dancing/whatever decent?
Heavily simplified version to the point of being heavily simplified.
Lingering hitboxes are useful for reading dash ins while being generally imprecise but lose to more precise dashing. Dashing trades with dashing depending on stage control and tools but is a lot more precise. That's not including walling and stuff.
Is my general idea for dash dancing/whatever decent?
Heavily simplified version to the point of being heavily simplified.
_Chrome
Smash Ace
He's just trying to say that the initial years of development are more important than later years due to growth rates and stuff. It depends on what you value as far as this goes.
Lingering hitboxes aren't the end all for dash ins, since players can shield on a dime or hold down for weaker moves you can ASDI (actually quite funny to run at someone full throttle, get jabbed or barely touched, ASDI down and grab/dash grab them for it). Tis why you can't just mindlessly Nair people as Falcon when they run at you, lingering hitbox doesn't always work super bueno.
DD loses to people or opponents who guess your pattern/intentions, wins vs people that can't or take too long to figure out. It's a tool to express dynamic ebb and flow on offense and defense (assuming not a slow poke character). Defensively DD is pretty intuitive and makes sense without a whole lot of examination required to understand. Offensively however is what separates tiers of players.
The true RPS of "what beats what" is best served with a realistic sense of dynamic properties, not a simple xyz flowchart. Minute spacing or timing differences change the viability of a particular option in multiple various micro-situations that you'd run out of paper examining precisely what pixel to dash back for 6 frames before dashing in etc
DD loses to people or opponents who guess your pattern/intentions, wins vs people that can't or take too long to figure out. It's a tool to express dynamic ebb and flow on offense and defense (assuming not a slow poke character). Defensively DD is pretty intuitive and makes sense without a whole lot of examination required to understand. Offensively however is what separates tiers of players.
The true RPS of "what beats what" is best served with a realistic sense of dynamic properties, not a simple xyz flowchart. Minute spacing or timing differences change the viability of a particular option in multiple various micro-situations that you'd run out of paper examining precisely what pixel to dash back for 6 frames before dashing in etc
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PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
I know that, but he said that I somehow implied otherwise. Of course we know it's exponential (I think logarithmic would be more correct here?) but there's no obvious cut-off for when 12 years of additional development doesn't still put fox players way ahead. Keep in mind I'm not even saying Fox beats wolf or vice versa or anything like that. If it were a hypoethetically 50/50 matchup that plays like 60/40 because all the fox players are years ahead; or if it were in wolf's favor hypothetically but feels even for that reason; how do we know what point their development narrows out adequately? Of course we know the Melee fox meta isn't developing as quickly now as it was a few years ago, but I don't see any obvious metric for determining how much it's slowed.
edit: ok yeah I thought logarithmic was correct but that's not really the point, aren't logarithms just exponents from the reverse end of the equation anyway?
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