Tier List Speculation

Bleck

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Can confirm, prof beat me at BH5, though it was g3 and he knows in his heart it was mine </3 rematch when?
You can also include that I beat you at like 1am/2am when my mind was literally 80% at 'When is this tournament going to end' because I had Melee Top 64 in the early morning :p

And I still want to go Shots Fired 2 but that's not confirmed, so have no idea the next event I will be at with you
 
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You can also include that I beat you at like 1am/2am when my mind was literally 80% at 'When is this tournament going to end' because I had Melee Top 64 in the early morning :p

And I still want to go Shots Fired 2 but that's not confirmed, so have no idea the next event I will be at with you
I mean... I did a **** ton of TOing for the event too and didn't get to relax during the event at all. ANYWAYS I look forward to whenever we play next.
 

D e l t a

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I'm just sad I couldn't enter because I spent literally all of Saturday setting up the hotel rooms and organizing **** while dealing with 20 people at a time then stayed up till 6am to see the event thru the finish. Looking forward to next time though lol

Can't wait to get the rematch vs Prof and vs everyone else I didn't play at TBH5
 

Avro-Arrow

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Prof buffed snake and then pulled the plug on the DT

Never trust a snake main
Don't we mean he pulled the pin on the PMDT?

We should have seen this coming, a few months ago this thread was fully made up of "Snake is dumb," MTLKyle hugbox conspiracy theories, and the classic "Fox is OP."
 
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Idostuff

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So I believe that Sheilda, could be one of the best chars in the game. Probably around even with ROB, CF, Falco, but still less than fox, wolf, diddy, and Mk.

Sheik loses to puff(probably actually even), kirby, and DDD. But Zelda beats those chars, which limits their use as a potential counter pick against sheik. 3 less potentially bad MU to look out for is a plus for sheiks viability.

Also, while Zelda probably doesn't do better against spacies than sheik does, she might have an easier time getting them out of cc% bc Zelda has actual combos out of up throw at low %, where as sheik has to rely on tech chasing, after which she can switch back to sheik to close out the stock.

Transform probably doesn't do anything to help against MK and Roy though, sheiks other 2 bad ish mu.
 

Avro-Arrow

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MK vs Zelda is actually not too bad for Zelda. The punishes are good, dins Fire is alright for taking away ledge and stopping DD but MK with proper counterplay beats her solidly: he should be able to cover all shortens and on stage attempts for recoveries most of the time, she can't challenge his DD if he's patient (can bait out normal/aerial and punish on landing/lag can punish committal dash options and can wait out Din's through timing it out or circumventing onstage Din's with platform movement.

Sucks that Zelda's usmash doesn't hit grounded MK reliably though (although, MK can be killed from a low percent usmash combo into kick).
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
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Can I report Boiko Boiko for good posting?

junebug junebug , are you going to that NY tournament in April? Wanna finally do that MM?

uh, also yeah man wolf is good. fox is good, sheik sucks and wow i can't believe Professor Pro Professor Pro really pulled one over on us drat. Screw snake amiright. also roy is totally not viable because these ROBs are so rampant. it's only a matter of time until we see them outside of the South/Southeastern US and literally nowhere else.

and finally, **** falcon
 
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Life

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KinGly

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I think if you smoke dank product, you shouldn't add personal changes. Gotta stay true to the original message!

Actual discussion:

I feel that Falco has a lot of potential in PM. Probably not top 5 but higher than most people are placing him. He actually got some neat stuff going from melee to PM with footstool shenanigans, new ledge grab mechanics making side b more useful for burst movement, and RAR Bair stretching across the entire map out of a dash to kick your opponent in the balls.

Biggest problem is that no one good is really exploring him. Its mostly melee players and people like me who just suck anyway.

Also its huge that he does good against Fox, Wolf, and Falcon. And we don't really know for sure how he does against the other high tiers. We haven't really seen much Falco diddy or Falco MK at high level, but I'm willing to speculate at worst its 55-45 for one side or the other for both of those matchups.

TL;DR People think Falco sucks cause only melee players and ****ty PM players play him, so we don't see his PM engine buffs in action and we don't know his matchup spread outside of doing well against a few top ten chars.
 

Life

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My own thoughts on the subject is that, being the glassiest Melee top tier cannon, he's probably the one that suffers from unfamiliar matchup syndrome the worst, which makes him a little worse than he should be on paper (and on paper Falco is still pretty scary).
 

D e l t a

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The inclusion of much flatter stages that remove Falco's ability to pillar combo and tech chase across platforms is also a hindrance to his playstyle. While opponents can use the platforms to escape lasers, Falco's combo game is best with triangle platforms and allows him to choose multiple options if he can recover.

A much larger cast with the inclusion of multiple floaties / viable floaties from Melee also creates a difficulty for the bird. Most characters in Melee were outright bad due to a lack of recovery / kill power, or poor approach options / defensive game. The characters that weren't bad, however, were primarily fast fallers aka combo food. While Falco still retains a similar matchup spread to the Melee top tiers, he suffers in part to larger stages and floatier characters, or at least ones that have a good recovery.

Aside from the lack of knowledge versus Brawl characters, Falco players simply have to deal with other characters having better kill power, punishes, and overall neutral games that can ignore Falco's gameplay.
 

JesteRace

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The inclusion of much flatter stages that remove Falco's ability to pillar combo and tech chase across platforms is also a hindrance to his playstyle. While opponents can use the platforms to escape lasers, Falco's combo game is best with triangle platforms and allows him to choose multiple options if he can recover.

A much larger cast with the inclusion of multiple floaties / viable floaties from Melee also creates a difficulty for the bird. Most characters in Melee were outright bad due to a lack of recovery / kill power, or poor approach options / defensive game. The characters that weren't bad, however, were primarily fast fallers aka combo food. While Falco still retains a similar matchup spread to the Melee top tiers, he suffers in part to larger stages and floatier characters, or at least ones that have a good recovery.

Aside from the lack of knowledge versus Brawl characters, Falco players simply have to deal with other characters having better kill power, punishes, and overall neutral games that can ignore Falco's gameplay.
I think the fact that people can use platforms to get around lasers is a bigger factor than you think. Flatter stages basically trades some punish for some better neutral. Falco, like Fox, simply has a toolkit that works on just about any stage, so it comes down to personal preference and matchup, so I don't think the stagelist makes a difference in Falco's viability at all.

In fact, the stagelist should not be affecting any Melee character's viability any more than it did in Melee.

As for floaties, can someone explain why this affects Falco's viability? Not being coy here, legitimately curious.
 

D e l t a

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While flat stages are nice and all, Falco has trouble converting past 80% or so depending on the character. With platforms, he can get a Fsmash / Dsmash read or punish with a Bair. So you can shoot your gun that does 1-2% in PM all day long, but at the end of the day, Falco still needs to get in and approach. People are getting good at spacing out and not dealing with lasers in the first place. Melee players are becoming consistent at powershielding that it makes shooting lasers as Falco somewhat disadvantageous at top level. Even if the opponent can't powershield lasers, they'll just take the minimal % and find ways to hold stay control & force Falco out, despite heavy laser pressure. It's not like Fox/Falco in Melee where lasers alone could rack up 20-50% easily.

==

As for why floaties are trouble, as mentioned above, Falco struggles to convert into kills after a certain %. Think of Marth when it comes to floaties. He can zone them out all day long, but has difficulties getting landing kill moves.

As Westballz has said numerous times, fighting Armada's Peach or Hbox's Puff has become difficult as a Falco main. You have to win neutral about 7-10 times against a character that only needs to win neutral maybe 2-5 times to take a stock. As if that alone isn't difficult in and of itself, Falco HAS to make the most out of every single hit and capitalize in the best possible way (be it having heavy stage control or dealing lots of %). Floaties on the other hand can knock Falco offstage in a few mere hits. Just one good conversion or random hit can lead to Falco's stock.

The way I think about Falco v Floaties is by taking Fox and removing his Uair / Upsmash kill power, then cutting his UpB recovery distance in half.
 

Boiko

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While flat stages are nice and all, Falco has trouble converting past 80% or so depending on the character. With platforms, he can get a Fsmash / Dsmash read or punish with a Bair. So you can shoot your gun that does 1-2% in PM all day long, but at the end of the day, Falco still needs to get in and approach.
Why? He can just shoot his gun all day. Or he can use his gun to cover his approach to stop DDing, force shield, etc. He has a dumb amount of options in the neutral to do basically whatever he wants. PM introduced the usage of RAR aerials, and more interesting options like RAR>waveland>up tilt, which increases his effective threat zone.

As for why floaties are trouble, as mentioned above, Falco struggles to convert into kills after a certain %. Think of Marth when it comes to floaties. He can zone them out all day long, but has difficulties getting landing kill moves.
I don't think that is very true at all. You very rarely see characters living to egregious percentages against Falco. He has the tools, conversions, mix-ups, etc., to close stocks out early. His up air is an amazing option out of shine or up tilt and kills floaties much earlier than you may think. He still has bair, laser>dtilt, great edge guarding, a DACUS that can be used as a tech chase. In conjunction with his frame one combo starter and slew of other pressure tools, he shouldn't have any problems killing.

As Westballz has said numerous times, fighting Armada's Peach or Hbox's Puff has become difficult as a Falco main. You have to win neutral about 7-10 times against a character that only needs to win neutral maybe 2-5 times to take a stock. As if that alone isn't difficult in and of itself, Falco HAS to make the most out of every single hit and capitalize in the best possible way (be it having heavy stage control or dealing lots of %). Floaties on the other hand can knock Falco offstage in a few mere hits. Just one good conversion or random hit can lead to Falco's stock.
Melee Falco isn't PM Falco. In my opinion, he has more options in not only neutral, but punish game as well. He's just a much more frightening version of himself. If a floaty is knocking you off stage and edge guarding you, you're getting outplayed. Falco has an amazing neutral game and you need to play to that advantage. If you're dying because of "random hits" it's a player problem, not a character problem.
 

Player -0

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Also I still think shine -> DJ just barely reaches floaty -> Short Footstool -> Pillar as normal is the future.

Because at points it's difficult to Dair without you rising as you hit them. The footstool allows you to be fast falling while sending them down.
 
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