Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

the fact that shields are centered on characters making them them much less likely to be shield poked and characters being realistically able to power shield projectiles.

 

[Boiko]

I don't think that either of those are significant enough to offset other enhancements to his kit to substantiate the claim that his neutral and punish took a considerable hit. Agree to disagree, I suppose.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

How exactly did his pressure and neutral game take a big hit in the transition from Melee to PM?

 

[trash?]

laser falloff + dair nerf, along w/ a lot more characters you can't consistently pillar as hard. you can see falco players from melee mess up often because they expect his dair to remain a giant spike hitbox for the whole duration (tho obviously, this should hopefully be a non-issue once people play PM as PM and not an extension of melee)

like keep in mind he's still amazing, but he's only an amazing space animal in a game with two s-tier space animals, of which one has a good chunk of his metagame planned out already, and in melee he's so good that the argument is built around whether he's the best or just the second best in the game

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Falco is still really good. He has one of the best neutrals in the game with lasers, and them being nerfed doesn't mean much when their core function is still the same. You can also b reverse them now which makes for some good mixups.
Dair nerf isn't too big of a deal as most good falcos use the first hit of dair to get the spike, anyways.

Some mu's are tough, like gnw, kirby, samus, puff for example, who can crouch under lasers, but it just requires him to probably shoot them lower or change up his gameplan, really. I think he's fine and probably even around top 10.

He's annoying as all hell to fight, too.

 

[Bazkip]

Also, while Zelda probably doesn't do better against spacies than sheik does, she might have an easier time getting them out of cc% bc Zelda has actual combos out of up throw at low %, where as sheik has to rely on tech chasing, after which she can switch back to sheik to close out the stock.

Sheik has a much easier time getting grabs than Zelda though.

 

[D e l t a]

Why? He can just shoot his gun all day. Or he can use his gun to cover his approach to stop DDing, force shield, etc. He has a dumb amount of options in the neutral to do basically whatever he wants. PM introduced the usage of RAR aerials, and more interesting options like RAR>waveland>up tilt, which increases his effective threat zone.

Eventually the opponent can close space and punish Falco for doing a short hop to laser. SH lasers aren't a free win in neutral. People are getting better at powershielding and even practice powershielding lasers exclusively to deal with Falco. They barely do any damage and have next to 0 hitstun.

I don't think that is very true at all. You very rarely see characters living to egregious percentages against Falco. He has the tools, conversions, mix-ups, etc., to close stocks out early. His up air is an amazing option out of shine or up tilt and kills floaties much earlier than you may think. He still has bair, laser>dtilt, great edge guarding, a DACUS that can be used as a tech chase. In conjunction with his frame one combo starter and slew of other pressure tools, he shouldn't have any problems killing.

Falco has very few gimps against the cast and most of them require bad DI near the ledge from Bthrow setups. The other "gimp" setup is shine off the top vs floaties, which is difficult to pull off on flatter stages, non triangle layouts, or stages with taller ceilings due to the set knockback of shine. His Upsmash still doesn't kill that well against a majority of the cast and barely leads to any followups. I know his Uair can kill at a decent percent, but is unreliable and many times doesn't kill when it should. laser -> dtilt isn't guaranteed, especially on floaties. I don't know why any of the floaty characters would be getting hit by that combo unless they're getting caught landing and Falco happens to be right in there face.

Almost all the kills Falco gets will be earned and above 70% on average.

Melee Falco isn't PM Falco. In my opinion, he has more options in not only neutral, but punish game as well. He's just a much more frightening version of himself.

I'm not saying that PM Falco isn't good. I'm saying that PM Falco isn't as good as a majority of characters in PM.

If a floaty is knocking you off stage and edge guarding you, you're getting outplayed

It seems as if you refuse to accept the fact that people don't play perfectly 100% of the time and will get hit time to time. If Falco is over 40% and gets hit anywhere outside of center stage, odds are he's going to be sent near the ledge if not offstage. From there, Falco's recovery options are somewhat limited. This is like saying if you get hit by a floaty more than 3 times, you're bad.

 

[KinGly]

Eventually the opponent can close space and punish Falco for doing a short hop to laser. SH lasers aren't a free win in neutral. People are getting better at powershielding and even practice powershielding lasers exclusively to deal with Falco. They barely do any damage and have next to 0 hitstun.

Yes if the falco is just standing in one spot and doing nothing but short hop lasers then of course the opponent can smack him mid shot, but a smart falco is going to know the threat range of his opponent and stop doing dumb lasers once their threat range overlaps with his potential escape options. Hes got plenty of options to punish a bad approach with dair, spacing bair, run up nair, shine, etc., and hes still got a decent dash dance to help abuse these.

Falco has very few gimps against the cast and most of them require bad DI near the ledge from Bthrow setups. The other "gimp" setup is shine off the top vs floaties, which is difficult to pull off on flatter stages, non triangle layouts, or stages with taller ceilings due to the set knockback of shine. His Upsmash still doesn't kill that well against a majority of the cast and barely leads to any followups. I know his Uair can kill at a decent percent, but is unreliable and many times doesn't kill when it should. laser -> dtilt isn't guaranteed, especially on floaties. I don't know why any of the floaty characters would be getting hit by that combo unless they're getting caught landing and Falco happens to be right in there face.

Falco's shine doesn't have set knockback, only Fox's does. Uair is relatively reliable, but Falco doesn't really need to kill off the top. Most of his kills against floaties will likely come from either well spaced bairs or dair into tech chase kill move. He can kill early with dair but he doesn't really need to since he's got such a strong punish game most of the cast could very easily be consistently killed with only two solid openings.

It seems as if you refuse to accept the fact that people don't play perfectly 100% of the time and will get hit time to time. If Falco is over 40% and gets hit anywhere outside of center stage, odds are he's going to be sent near the ledge if not offstage. From there, Falco's recovery options are somewhat limited. This is like saying if you get hit by a floaty more than 3 times, you're bad.

Falco has the power to maintain center stage and win neutral much more than his opponents though. There are some matchups where he really struggles but most of those matchups seem to be against characters who see very little play (Puff, DDD(?), Kirby,
Peach, Samus). On the other hand he does comparatively well (at least 5-5) against a lot of the popular characters such as Fox, Falcon, MK (imo), Sheik, ROB, Wolf, Ike, Roy.

I've started ranting a bit but I fully stand behind Falco being at worst in the top 10ish, maybe top 15.

 

[_Chrome]

I don't understand how it's even an argument that Falco is outside of the top 15, let alone the top 10. He's about the same as he was in Melee and he performs well against every single one of the relevant characters.

 

[D e l t a]

I don't think he's necessarily outside of the top 15. Then again there's about 20 characters that are top 15 in the game

The thing with Falco is that Melee characters were forced to play his game. In PM, there's more diagonal based movement & attacks which counter Falco's linear playstyle.

For example, Ness is considered good but not as good as Lucas. Despite this, Lucas does worse vs Falco because he plays a similar gameplan of throw horiztonal projectile, pressure shields, and convert well off Dair & shine (magnet). Ness on the other hand, uses fade in & out DJC aerials and PK Fire to get conversions & pokes at the opponent. Ness' up close game vs Falco is much better in some instances due to the way he moves around in neutral. Lucas on the other hand, gets his approaches stuff by Falco's slightly larger disjointed range.

 

[Frost | Odds]

So I used to think Sonic sucked.

That's because I sucked. He feels pretty gahlike now.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Sonic's pretty gangster

 

[Jolteon]

So I used to think Sonic sucked.

That's because I sucked. He feels pretty gahlike now.

Yeah I never figured out what people were smoking when they said this.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah I never figured out what people were smoking when they said this.

My logic at the time was that most of his hitboxes tend to lose to pretty much anyone else's. If you try to play him like Fox, he really does suck - you can't nairplane or get quick kills off of most tech chases. His strengths lie in other areas.

 

[D e l t a]

His strengths lie in pressing B a lot

I totally agree

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I totally agree

actually I feel like that's the trap that most sonics fall into

I feel like sonic is just a more polarized falcon with far worse buttons

 

[shairn]

So I used to think Sonic sucked.

That's because I sucked. He feels pretty gahlike now.

My logic at the time was that most of his hitboxes tend to lose to pretty much anyone else's. If you try to play him like Fox, he really does suck - you can't nairplane or get quick kills off of most tech chases. His strengths lie in other areas.

Cliffhanging harder than a korean drama
Explain yourself damn you

 

[_Chrome]

Just for clarification, a more normals-based Sonic is more the way to go in a lot of MUs rather than the classic Wizzy spamming B moves.

 

[Life]

There's also been some optimization to his punish game since the last time we talked about him. Using the downB charging hitbox in combos, uthrow->dair becoming standard, etc.

 

[shairn]

Just for clarification, a more normals-based Sonic is more the way to go in a lot of MUs rather than the classic Wizzy spamming B moves.

Maybe Wizzy was spamming B moves because he was playing 2.6 Sonic

 

[_Chrome]

Never said that wasn't the reason

 

[Star ☆]

A balance of the two is how to play Sonic, though some matchups call for one more than the other (Eg. more spins versus Falcon, more normal/grabs versus Zelda)

 

[shairn]

A balance of the two is how to play Sonic, though some matchups call for one more than the other (Eg. more spins versus Falcon, more normal/grabs versus Zelda)

I spent like 15 mins trying to write a good, succinct, sarcastic response but I couldn't not be mean so instead you get this weird meta-response about how that's kind of how matchups work.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

But it's only been 8 minutes

Try harder.

 

[Star ☆]

I spent like 15 mins trying to write a good, succinct, sarcastic response but I couldn't not be mean so instead you get this weird meta-response about how that's kind of how matchups work.

My message was that bland because of a lot of Sonic players don't seem to understand both can be used in harmony and resort to just one or the other in all matchups.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Falcon seriously though is the character you want to spin against the most because:
1. CC options suck
2. Conversions (edge guards, grab comboes/tech chases/BA or Shffl follow-ups) are really good
3. Being in a tiny little ball makes you harder to nair/stomp
4. It's a good reactive option out of DD to catch him on landing or out of other whiffed moves.

 

[DMG]

Also the DD changes make it easier to PS on the fly out of DD (coming from standpoint of Falcon main, anything that makes lasers less of a pain and keeps DD worthwhile is AAA+ gucci). Using dash back into dash forward PS is not unrealistic with any reasonable practice (no claims made if ur a big or slow char)

 

[GabPR]

My message was that bland because of a lot of Sonic players don't seem to understand both can be used in harmony and resort to just one or the other in all matchups.

The day I see a Sonic player able to adopt different styles of play, switch between those efficiently in neutral and with good understanding of his punish game is the day Sonic will be truly feared by all. Sonic has so many individual techs going for him though, that constantly changing up his playstyle without repeating one of his aspect more than the others can be a tricky business.

 

[Sadface]

I'm just sad I couldn't enter because I spent literally all of Saturday setting up the hotel rooms and organizing **** while dealing with 20 people at a time then stayed up till 6am to see the event thru the finish. Looking forward to next time though lol

Can't wait to get the rematch vs Prof and vs everyone else I didn't play at TBH5

Having everyone in my room was fun, tfw the project m twitter tweeted out the room number lol. Too bad it ran so late, it was otherwise really fun. I didn't get to play many people besides prof and delicous octorock so maybe I'll get to play you and more MI people at bh6, assuming pm will be there again.

anyways sonic is interesting, I always thought the character was good but in 3.5 wizzy told me he sucks and said no more. Life my local sonic player started using u throw dair a lot more now, was wondering if any inbetween DI avoids that as well as up air or if you basically pick your poison in the moment.

 

[trash?]

I still think MK vs sonic, in theory, is sonic's worst matchup (MK can force a lot of sonic's stuff to become a game of trades, MK wins almost all trades in the game) but I've also never seen the matchup at a high level so for all I know sonic has something that lets him play around it

 

[_Chrome]

The entire Sonic discord disagrees with you, as well as lots of MKs. It's about even; although I hear more people saying it's Sonic favourable right now, especially since uthrow -> dair kills consistently at 50% and up.

 

[D e l t a]

Having everyone in my room was fun, tfw the project m twitter tweeted out the room number lol. Too bad it ran so late, it was otherwise really fun. I didn't get to play many people besides prof and delicous octorock so maybe I'll get to play you and more MI people at bh6, assuming pm will be there again.

Oh man I didn't know they tweeted out the room haha. Im assuming you were in the suite?

And the time crunch was really a bummer. Partially my fault not getting everyone's setups completely organized in different rooms and not having pools assigned until 30mins later plus the chaos of in-person reg. lol. And then working around the official schedule that ran until WiiU doubles was finishing around 8pm didn't help

I'm looking forward to TBH6. Would love to play you and many others there.

~this is why people use Smash.GG for large tourneys~

 

[Deleted member]

I actually counterpick MK vs. Sonic players because its way better than Tink/Roy vs Sonic

I basically just try to make sure I'm in center stage and nair when it'll win (oh and sonics tech roll is bad so hooray)

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I still think MK vs sonic, in theory, is sonic's worst matchup (MK can force a lot of sonic's stuff to become a game of trades, MK wins almost all trades in the game) but I've also never seen the matchup at a high level so for all I know sonic has something that lets him play around it

Fox says otherwise (lol, it's actually Peach though).

Basically the MK MU goes like Sonic is going to run around a lot and make Mk think he can get me with a nair, dash attack, usmash, or dtilt, or grab, but then I'm going to either running shield (which beats high nair which MK uses to beat fair/nair in neutral, or any of MK's other grounded options in neutral), fair, dash back, jc grab, or side-b to punish. And no, MK isn't going to be able to predict with any sort of accuracy that makes neutral in his favour (by a lot) because Sonic's DD is great and fair punishes MK's grounded options if I expect them. Something that's really funny is that Sonic's wavedash can get under a lot of MK's aerial approaches (aka nair) since he crouches down a little bit. This gives me the opportunity to grab MK, which is where sonic really shines especially against MK (more on this later).

The problem with the MU, as with any other DD-oriented MU for Sonic, is when they know you're going to dash back or dash in and they either take more space (Sonic is very weak in the corner; 90-10 scenario for MK) or they stuff my approach with a move that isn't negatively disjointed (which MK obviously has plenty of). Other problems include Sonic's difficulty of edge guarding a MK that knows the MU (as they can wait out attempted springs and hang back for any other sort of edge guard or beat it with shuttle loop). MK, if he gets a grab on Sonic, can get a tech chase at low percents and build up damage into a juggle or edge guard, or at 60-80% can uthrow DC which kills at the later portion of the bracket I just listed.

As for Sonic, punishes are relatively guaranteed (although often difficult without a lot of experience and good timing; there are very small windows to land certain moves and extend the combo) (it also helps that MK is the worst combo weight in the entire game), as things like side-b > BA > fair do decent percent and can set up tech chase scenarios near the ledge or, if sourspot fair lands, can lead you getting a grab. He also has access to uthrow dair which is guaranteed at early percents and gets you a regrab until 30% (which means you get into a uair chain, another dair near the ledge, or a BA > aerial) (or I can go for a utilt which leads into aerial comboes akin to a uthrow, as long as he doesn't CC). Sonic can also tech chase MK with ease since his tech roll is utter garbage and so you only have to expect tech in place dsmash, dtilt, or ftilt, which is a better option than uthrowing depending on stage positioning and platforms. At higher percents a tech chase from dthrow, dair, fair sweetspot, or dash attack can lead into a dsmash kill really easily at about 100%+. Uthrow Dair remains a kill move even moving into 130%+ on DI offstage and if he doesn't then I can still land an uair kill or something equally devastating.

MK's good at edge guarding Sonic btw. Doesn't make it look free, but they're pretty solid.

General counter play for the MU:

• MK should mix up his DIs from uthrow, and should SDI dairs behind Sonic and not SDI as a mix up. The window for Sonic to land a dair guaranteed is actually quite small so obviously playing around with his expectations can raise his reaction time and then he can miss the punish (or just read wrong in general). At low percents I hate it when I don't react to his DI on dair because if he lands behind me and I guessed in front (or didn't react, it's also a tiny window) then I can eat a punish probably from a grab, usmash, or dsmash to set up a tech chase.
• Sonic wants to fair (or other aerial) you to punish a whiffed grounded option. So MK wants to high SH nair to beat it out. So Sonic wants to shield, wd under, or dash back to counter it. If Sonic shields, MK might want to do a low nair and go +1 or +0. If Sonic wd under, MK can dair. If Sonic dashes back, MK can potentially read it and steal space or ftilt to cover landing. This sort of exchange is a big part of the MU.
  
• Sonic wants to condition you with his side-b. Often I'll side-b and wd back to try and bait a dash attack, shffl nair or something comparable. In general try to mix up what you're doing and read what the Sonic is going for in neutral and mid combo. Don't fall for his traps!

Really disorganized post and I didn't explain everything and probably forgot a bunch but I g2g; hope anyone who read this got something from it and if you disagree with me then call me out, peace.

 

[Ripple]

(oh and sonics tech roll is bad so hooray)

only his tech in(or out, I forget) is terrible, his opposite tech is fine

Sonic is 1 of only 3 characters that don't have symmetrical tech rolls. the others being Ivy, and sheik.

 

[DMG]

I thought Falco had a pretty good tech away / better than tech in?

 

[Deleted member]

only his tech in(or out, I forget) is terrible, his opposite tech is fine

Sonic is 1 of only 3 characters that don't have symmetrical tech rolls. the others being Ivy, and sheik.

I just back throw him and kill him, don't really notice the difference

METAKNIGHT IS BROKEN HNGHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[DMG]

METAKNIGHT LUNCHABLES IS BROKEN FEED HIM PIZZA RAWR

 

[Deleted member]

I'm currently eating dominos pizz- wait this isn't the social thread

Hello guys what do we think of Roy? He's really cool right

 

[DMG]

"A skilled Roy..." - All that needs to be said