Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

x^2 and x^1/2 are inverses of each other. Logarithms relate to exponential equations a little differently. log b x = b^x. "b" is the base of the log (10 is common, base e make it an ln). So if you have an exponent as a power, you can change the equation to a log so it is easier to work with.

In the attached picture, red is a log, blue is an x squared, and green is the square root of x (just in case you miss where it tells you this on the left).

 

[CORY]

x^2 and x^1/2 are inverses of each other. Logarithms relate to exponential equations a little differently. log b x = b^x. "b" is the base of the log (10 is common, base e make it an ln). So if you have an exponent as a power, you can change the equation to a log so it is easier to work with.

In the attached picture, red is a log, blue is an x squared, and green is the square root of x (just in case you miss where it tells you this on the left).

Nerd

 

[D e l t a]

So what's the best math function? Personally, I think it's F(x)

 

[DrinkingFood]

g(x) tbqfh

 

[Tomaster]

tier list speculation thread at its best

 

[Player -0]

How else do you think players calculate what angle to go?

Extremely quick rocket science. That's how

 

[Chevy]

Smashboards decided I wasn't to be notified when this thread was updated, so I assumed that it was dead for the last two weeks.

Catch-up(not gonna bother quoting):

Samus f-tilt actually has the fake Yoshi d-tilt problem but it doesn't matter 90% of the time.

Samus cannot make Fox approach her in the slightest in Melee, the notion is absurd, and that's why people still think Fox-Samus is anywhere near even. For what it's worth, Silent Wolf has told me he thinks Fox destroys Samus if they actually play it properly. I don't think it's that bad in Melee, and I'm undecided in PM. It's probably close to even either side.

Bladewise thinks Peach beats Fox in PM, but that opinion stems without any PM bonuses from Fox so who knows.

Snake is super lame - take a character who has been given tools for some of the most creative and interesting play in the game, then boil everything down to flowcharting a handful of moves into stick->make go up->kill at 70%. A ton of wasted potential for a fun character, maybe that'll change if people stop getting stuck. Also d-air is abysmally ********, same goes for Pukas.

GnW is still ass and I've have a vendetta against him since I started playing in 2.5.

I think that's all my opinions for now. Also Ganondorf sucks or whatever.

 

[D e l t a]

g(x) tbqfh

but F(x) tho

F
of
x

==

Decided not to make this a complete **** post. Chevy Completely serious question, how do you think Snake is that fun of a character? He has terrible approach options and his neutral is completely centered around using nades / mines to get a grab to lead into sticks or whatever. UpB is about the only fun move on Snake IMO

 

[Player -0]

Oh yeah, reminder that you can footstool after Sonic, G&W, Snake, etc Up B.

Snake's Dair is kinda annoying because it like meteors you with the first hit. Why does it do that. Also idek what it is, it derps you though

 

[Chevy]

Crazy amount of grenade tech, weird up-b movement with plats, hilarious recovery options, up-smash is super unique(wish it hurt him like all his other explosions though), d-smash challenges stage awareness and changes how both players play, and can actually bite him in the ass, down-b when not stuck is obviously super cool, especially in combination with his other stage traps.

I'm not saying his optimal gameplan is fun, that's exactly my complaint. The fringe bits are really cool though. And by fun, I don't mean good and easy to autopilot, I mean that he has a lot of space for creative play.

He's a lot like Link, but Link's optimal gameplan isn't quite as cookie cutter.

 

[Soft Serve]

Teirlists are dumb
but not as dumb as working way harder than other people to get worse results
don't be a hero, pick a top tier-o

top 5 is ordered rest isn't.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I resent Roy, Luigi and Samus being a tier below but whatever.

Also, when's your hot mix tape coming out? Spittin' barrrrs.

 

[nimigoha]

I just love Yoshi's picture. In every tier list made he will look disappointed.

 

[Soft Serve]

I resent Roy, Luigi and Samus being a tier below but whatever.

Also, when's your hot mix tape coming out? Spittin' barrrrs.

I think samus and luigi, while being super strong, have legitimately bad MUs among the really good, very commong characters which holds them back. struggling whenever you run into Marth/game and Watch/shiek/Ike player #567 or your scene's campy link/tink aren't good problems to have

Roy is good but theres litterally just one roy getting results, pretty much nationwide. he's underwhelming otherwise.

agree all 3 are super good, which is why they are in the "gotta work a bit harder" tier not the "Damn this is a climb tier"

 

[Deleted member]

Every character usually has their obvious best and then a second player or two who is right under that, such as Machiavelli and JZ for ivysaur

someone should be good at Roy pls I want more Roys

 

[Sundark]

I'm trying Lunchables, I really am. I just need to stop doing Shffl Fair on D3's shield so damn much.

 

[Deleted member]

you're playing roy vs ddd?

sorry buddy, I like roy and all but there are some matchups you want to avoid like the plague and DDD is one of them

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Pffft, f(x) is better than both g(x) and F(x). Also, Michigan loves the un-edgegaurdeable bit. Their latest highlight reel mentions it in the title...

To make this post kinda productive, DI Squirtle dtilt away so you don't get hit by aqua jet. It helps make Squirtle players work a teeny bit harder to get kills (he still kills absurdly early/consistently)

 

[Kapapanerp]

you're playing roy vs ddd?

sorry buddy, I like roy and all but there are some matchups you want to avoid like the plague and DDD is one of them

Yeah lol Roy vs DDD is no fun.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Samus cannot make Fox approach her in the slightest in Melee, the notion is absurd, and that's why people still think Fox-Samus is anywhere near even. For what it's worth, Silent Wolf has told me he thinks Fox destroys Samus if they actually play it properly. I don't think it's that bad in Melee, and I'm undecided in PM. It's probably close to even either side.

Bladewise thinks Peach beats Fox in PM, but that opinion stems without any PM bonuses from Fox so who knows.

Do you think Samus can force Fox to approach in PM with buffs to missiles and zair? I'm still under the assumption that she can't as long as you're aware of her threat ranges and the counterplay to them, but I also haven't played against a Samus that can properly use all of her new tools. I'm going to shots fired this weekend and will hopefully be playing ESAM in order to get a better understanding of the MU. As of right now I think it's 55/45 since dthrow usmash is a thing and you can edgeguard her much easier in PM than in Melee (albeit she can still do a few tricky things to mix up her recovery well).

I also spoke about this a few pages back in detail but the TL;DR is Jaden, Malachi, and I all think that Peach beats Fox ~55:45 so Bladewise isn't alone in his opinion.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Soft Serve Same argument can be made against Tink I think. Spacies, Falcon and Sheik are tough. Also Wario's got a problem with Tink, Marth and Sonic and GW has a problem with Marth and Tink as well.

As far as the representation argument goes, I'm not the best candidate to argue this but I'm pretty sure characters in your top tier also have comparable issues to Roy's rep.

Like Roy is actually pretty good against a lot of characters in your top tier too so there's that.

 

[Chevy]

Do you think Samus can force Fox to approach in PM with buffs to missiles and zair? I'm still under the assumption that she can't as long as you're aware of her threat ranges and the counterplay to them, but I also haven't played against a Samus that can properly use all of her new tools. I'm going to shots fired this weekend and will hopefully be playing ESAM in order to get a better understanding of the MU. As of right now I think it's 55/45 since dthrow usmash is a thing and you can edgeguard her much easier in PM than in Melee (albeit she can still do a few tricky things to mix up her recovery well).

I also spoke about this a few pages back in detail but the TL;DR is Jaden, Malachi, and I all think that Peach beats Fox ~55:45 so Bladewise isn't alone in his opinion.

I still think it's Samus' perogative to approach, but z-air can help a little(Fox has the speed to punish it better than most). Fox nerfs are all pretty important to the match-up as being that Samus dies off the top so easily. All of her quality of life buffs are somewhat relevant, the only real downside from Melee to PM is her recovery.

And yeah I was just throwing another opinion in the ring on the Peach-Fox thing, that's what I was commenting on.

 

[Tomaster]

Yeah lol Roy vs DDD is no fun.

DDD top tier fun killer

 

[JOE!]

A ton of wasted potential for a fun character, maybe that'll change if people stop getting stuck

...how?

 

[Chevy]

...how?

Stop sitting in shield on platforms mostly, but realistically he has enough set-ups for it that the problem will probably never go away. Part of the reason it's so dumb is because it's so easy to stick someone to begin with.

 

[JOE!]

Stop sitting in shield on platforms mostly, but realistically he has enough set-ups for it that the problem will probably never go away. Part of the reason it's so dumb is because it's so easy to stick someone to begin with.

Not only are there so many set ups, but there is no counterplay beside "kill snake" since the sticky lasts functionally forever on you.

 

[Chevy]

Not only are there so many set ups, but there is no counterplay beside "kill snake" since the sticky lasts functionally forever on you.

So we need to legalize Smash Balls, it doubles the amount of characters that can un-stick themselves. Alternatively, turn on debug mode and cycle to a new character before he has time to detonate it. The counterplay is there, it's just unexplored. We need to learn to adapt instead of complain.

 

[JOE!]

One of the few ways I've found to "counter" the sticky is to just be close to snake at all times, even in the air. Zard can do this because he can fly up to him and make snake risk a suicide kill if he sets it off, what about other folks?

 

[Beorn]

Why was buffing jigglypuffs sing such a problem. I get that sing>rest would have been really broken, but, well, how do we justify ranged sing > better rest? (Tranq > C4) How was this allowed to happen?

As an aside... Can I just say that I'm really happy for the community. People finally realize how ****ing stupid Wario and MK are. Seriously though... What took us collectively so long to realize these things. Wario and MK were considered mid-tier for how long?

 

[Jolteon]

Why was buffing jigglypuffs sing such a problem. I get that sing>rest would have been really broken, but, well, how do we justify ranged sing > better rest? (Tranq > C4) How was this allowed to happen?

There is no way you can seriously compare those two setups at all.

 

[Beorn]

There is no way you can seriously compare those two setups at all.

You're right. What was I thinking? C4 and tranq are way better than rest and Sing. Not even comparable.

Really though, I would like to know exactly what you mean. Also, I'm not saying we should have buffed sing. I'm saying that sleep state > stupid move is absurd. It was alright with snake, but not jiggs.

 

[Jolteon]

You're right. What was I thinking? C4 and tranq are way better than rest and Sing. Not even comparable.

Really though, I would like to know exactly what you mean. Also, I'm not saying we should have buffed sing. I'm saying that sleep state > stupid move is absurd. It was alright with snake, but not jiggs.

I'm not sure I really understand your position. You're saying that both tranq and C4 are better than sing and rest, but then you say that Snake's tranq -> c4 is fine whereas sing -> rest wouldn't be fine? Or are you saying it's because of the innate differences between the two characters?

 

[JOE!]

I'm not sure I really understand your position. You're saying that both tranq and C4 are better than sing and rest, but then you say that Snake's tranq -> c4 is fine whereas sing -> rest wouldn't be fine? Or are you saying it's because of the innate differences between the two characters?

What I believe he is saying is that tranq -> C4 is inheritley better than Sing -> Rest already. Snake has multiple, nigh guaranteed ways to stick you, and once you are stuck it cuts your life in half for seemingly little risk to Snake. Compared to rest which does have setups but is much harder to hit and leaves her very vulnerable on whiff and even upon landing a KO sometimes, the C4 is just much better of a KO option. Tranq vs Sing isn't even a contest as to which is better, Tranq is ranged and cannot be clanked, and already sets up right into a c4 stick if you werent already, and from there lets snake do whatever -> toss you up -> boom without the huge lag time rest has.

 

[trash?]

sing -> rest would also basically just be a rest with larger range, would it not? I can see why that'd be obnoxious, whereas tranq in this scenario is just another (extremely versatile) C4 option to go along with his other C4 options. tranq in this scenario is more like jiggs' uthrow than anything else

 

[nimigoha]

The answer to this is of course "because Melee".

Jigglypuff is a really stupid character. Rollout sucks, Sing sucks, her grounded moves other than Fsmash, Usmash, and Utilt suck (except Utilt is only really "good" because of Rest). Jab is literally only used for Jab reset > Rest.

She has really good aerials plus Rest. It's no surprise that that's all she does, it doesn't even need to be said.

"Because Melee" worked well of a lot of things, it's not something I generally dislike. Falcon, Sheik, Marth, Fox, Falco, and Peach are nearly identical with some noticeable buffs/nerfs that IMO make them, for the most part, well designed characters. Fun to play, exploitable flaws, fun to play against, etc. But you can still play them more or less exactly how you would in Melee (Sheik's throws and AGT for Peach are like the biggest changes to playstyle IMO).

But Jiggs stayed near identical, I guess PMDT didn't know what to do with her. I'd really love some inside insight to her balancing and why she remains 99.999% Melee Puff.

 

[Frost | Odds]

But Jiggs stayed near identical, I guess PMDT didn't know what to do with her. I'd really love some inside insight to her balancing and why she remains 99.999% Melee Puff.

We were working on it.

Short answer is that if she sucks harder, we'd get yelled at for ruining her. If she became much better, she'd be extremely cancerous. Rest is extremely difficult to balance around, as are her physics.

 

[Bazkip]

I'm not sure I really understand your position. You're saying that both tranq and C4 are better than sing and rest, but then you say that Snake's tranq -> c4 is fine whereas sing -> rest wouldn't be fine? Or are you saying it's because of the innate differences between the two characters?

He's not saying that he thinks it's fine, he's saying that others perceived it as fine, which he disagrees with.

 

[Player -0]

We were working on it.

I cry a little bit every time I hear a PMDT member say this.

 

[Zach777]

Why the heck would anyone think Peach is fun to play against? That is one of the most boring mus for me.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I enjoy playing positional advantage against her because of her poor double jump. So while she is floaty, you can press different situations than the typical "I have you close to the edge! Watch out I might hit you offstage, so DI in" kind of stuff.