Tier List Speculation

[Tomaster]

Why the heck would anyone think Peach is fun to play against? That is one of the most boring mus for me.

they like the adrenaline when they approach her with CCable moves
#thuglife
Life of thugs.

 

[Life]

Why the heck would anyone think Peach is fun to play against? That is one of the most boring mus for me.

Not-Marth main detected. Super satisfying MU to play for Marth. I doubt the Peach mains enjoy it so much though LOL

 

[DrinkingFood]

Woulda been nice if puff saw some buffs to her grounded game to bring her up to par without worsening her unlikable qualities. She's got like 3 near-useless grounded moves, and the rest of them are just slightly better, short of uptilt. She wouldn't feel MORE honest than she does in Melee, but at least the buffs wouldn't have been such that her walling becomes even more stupid, while still benefitting her. Hell, coulda given ftilt more range and knockback. Same with her jabs plus quicker, better linking. Give dtilt more utility. Roll-out could have seen some storable charge mechanic to encourage people to approach. None of it has to be stuff that set-up into rest, just stuff that helps her not suck on the ground. I guess maybe it's because I never saw the politics of the PMDT, but did it really have to be any more complicated than that?

Oh well. Rest in spaghetti, never forgetti, PMDT.

 

[D e l t a]

Could've given Jiggs a Dtilt or Ftilt similar to Kirby and I'm sure nobody would've complained.

Add just a few units of range to her Dsmash and people would've been satisfied.

I think Usmash & Fsmash are fine as is.

Sing buffs would be quite....interesting to say the least. If she wasn't a Melee top tier I'm sure the PMDT would've changed that move for something else just as they did to many other characters in PM (Lucas, Wario, Ganon, all 3 Pokemon from the Brawl P.T., etc)

 

[Deleted member]

jpuff is bair/rest stapled onto a bunch of asymetrical attributes. all her other moves are supplementary at best. treat it like it is imo.

 

[D e l t a]

I'm sure glad the PMDT didn't have that mentality when designing Metaknight or IceClimbers....

 

[DMG]

Sing replaced with Open Mic Def-Jam rap

 

[TheJolteon]

A Brawl Mod. Makes Meta Knight not top 5

 

[Player -0]

FAKE JOLTEON ALERT!

Anyway:

@Lunchables Can you give a mini breakdown of your dash dancing with Roy? Like I'm just curious what you're thinking during it. Do you still use tap jump to move around or do you use a button now? I've always used tap jump but it's really awkward moving like that with it (idk if I want to move like that yet, just messing around with it).

Also dash dancing and then turning around -> D-Tilt is reallly eguhg. I'm not sure if you're just doing soft reads. Actually I should probably just go back and watch some videos for that because I feel like what might be happening is: grab -> position -> set up for D-Tilt/whatever -> reset/soft pressure if fail

Edit - Also just recently realizing Roy's F-Smash actually doesn't have a sourspot when it's like, above (and a little forward above) him. They just die.

 

[Tomaster]

@Lunchables Can you give a mini breakdown of your dash dancing with Roy? Like I'm just curious what you're thinking during it.

He's thinking "when can I use my c stick?"

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Sing replaced with Open Mic Def-Jam rap

sing replaced with dk final smash

please understand

 

[Soft Serve]

A Brawl Mod. Makes Meta Knight not top 5

he is top 5

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

do we have a tentative top 5?

fox, wolf, diddy are for sure in there

then there's mk (most likely), falcon (probably), wario (??? maybe), gnw (probably not), sheik (probably not) and then there's a bunch of other characters that crazy people might throw into top 5 (toon link, marth, falco, lucas, rob, idk any other character)

 

[Life]

My top 5 has Mewtwo in it. Get at me.

 

[D e l t a]

IMO un-ordered list:

1-5: Fox, Diddy, Sheik, Marth, MK
6-10: Rob, Wolf, Mewtwo, Falco, Wario
11-20: Lucas, ZSS, Falcon, GnW, Toon Link, Mario, Samus, Ness, Pika, Lucario

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

My top 5 has Mewtwo in it. Get at me.

oh yeah honestly that's probably accurate idk I keep forgetting mewtwo is a character

 

[Tomaster]

My top 5 has Mewtwo in it. Get at me.

I'm bad with mewtwo, so he can't be top 5.

My top 4 would be Fox, MK, Diddy, Wolf.. can't think of a 5th, maybe Mewtwo, but I think his neutral is too lacking.

Do you think his recovery and punish game make up for his (arguably) below average neutral? or do you think his neutral is good?

 

[D e l t a]

M2 or Marth really. They have great range, good potential to kill at low % (Marth Fsmash, M2 Fair), only Mewtwo has the best Uthrow kill, second being Lucas'. Mewtwo doesn't have the speed that Marth does, but his rolls cover a huge amount of space and are fairly fast. blah blah blah other reasons, high priority, etc...

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

that being said I still think falcon is top five because left right left right knee 2gud

 

[DrinkingFood]

mewtwo's a top 5 character. he's not fast, but his rolls tho, their bretty gud
uhh
/logic

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

tbf I think mew2 is top 5 because all of the hover and waveland/telecancel shenanigans plus having a good nair and a really long tail can add up to a character that can do some stupid things

but playing mewtwo is hard

playing falcon is left right left right

 

[D e l t a]

mewtwo's a top 5 character. he's not fast, but his rolls tho, their bretty gud
uhh
/logic

or ignore my other points about having great kill potential and the known fact that he's a top gimping character...
/discussion

 

[DrinkingFood]

or ignore my other points about having great kill potential and the known fact that he's a top gimping character...
/discussion

I just thought it was funny that you even brought his rolls into notable consideration before like a dozen other things

 

[D e l t a]

Not really "notable," per se. It is something to consider however, given that a number of characters aren't fast enough to punish his rolls. Even some of the faster characters in the game can't punish Mewtwo's rolls on reaction. Unlike other characters in the game where their rolls are terrible: Yoshi, Lucas, or Luigi, for example, Mewtwo can tap left or right while in shield and escape pressure almost freely

Mewtwo's evasiveness allows him to escape punishes other characters would normally crumble under. His UpB can mixup landings or snap to ledge from the air while being easily platform cancel-able given the stage has platforms. Fair comes out quickly and disrupts combos akin to floaties and their Nair's. Hell, even his Bair interrupts crossups because of how large it is.

==

Let's see your falcon do left right in the air to escape being juggled PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

 

[Avro-Arrow]

IMO un-ordered list:

1-5: Fox, Diddy, Sheik, Marth, MK
6-10: Rob, Wolf, Mewtwo, Falco, Wario
11-20: Lucas, ZSS, Falcon, GnW, Toon Link, Mario, Samus, Ness, Pika, Lucario

Where the heck is Sonic?

Obligatory salt post about Roy

 

[D e l t a]

Where the heck is Sonic?

Something something debate about speed and fast moves vs negative disjoints & crouch cancels. References a worse, but faster Falcon. Blah blah blah

I think he's just below 10-20, maybe somewhere around Ness/Pika/Lucario

Obligatory salt post about Roy

Obligatory Roy isn't an A tier character or whatever post

Sometimes I forget about Roy being good. My b

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Thing is, Sonic's got a lot going for him in terms of a lot more options (even if individually they cover less options each) as well as a better defensive game because of being harder to hit and having a much better recovery. IMO whereas Ness can get shut down by CC Sonic can play around it in most MUs. Ness' tool set isn't as reactive or varied as Sonic's and he's weaker defensively as well in general.

I'll agree that Falcon is probably better overall but I still think Sonic's better than Mario, Pika, Lucario and Ness and probably (possibly?) Lucas too.

 

[mimgrim]

I'm bad with mewtwo, so he can't be top 5.

My top 4 would be Fox, MK, Diddy, Wolf.. can't think of a 5th, maybe Mewtwo, but I think his neutral is too lacking.

Do you think his recovery and punish game make up for his (arguably) below average neutral? or do you think his neutral is good?

Mewtwo's neutral isn't lacking or below average. Its actually pretty good, its just different.

He doesn't have the DD game of those other characters (still, dash in > Wavedash back is pretty good for M2) you mentioned nor their general speed (still, his ability to maneuver around the air is good). But he has his own mobility options to work in the neutral himself and keep himself mixed-up. Super good Wavedash (don't know/remember its exact ranking but I'm pretty sure it is in the top 4 WDs with Luigi, Lucas and Squirtman), Hover shenanigans (and don't forget about Hover Cancel to cancel out landing lag of an aerial ala Peach Float Cancel), and Teleport (less of a neutral option, however, and more of a punish and escape tool). He also has a slight stall with his first Side B and silly movement things with halfway charged or more B-reversed Shadow Ball. On top of that he has some really quick moves that also are super good with some good range and disjoint and pretty safe in neutral with proper spacing. He doesn't have the best approach game in the world and does better when the opponent tries to approach him so that he can utilize his exceptional walling ability and then the question is Shadow Ball (be it using it or just simply charging it) enough incentive to force the opponent to approach? That really depends on the MU tbh. But then we also can't forget his ability to be able to punish from a good distance. In basis he has good mix-up potiential in his mobility options, quick strong moves with reach and disjoint, and should be able to remain scary even from a distance, and has really good walling capabilities.

I'm probably not explaining myself properly though with how his neutral works and how it is actually good but just different from most other characters. :/

 

[Sundark]

you're playing roy vs ddd?

sorry buddy, I like roy and all but there are some matchups you want to avoid like the plague and DDD is one of them

For sure, and I know that, but my only other character with not-nothing time put in is Pit, and sometimes that guy still beats my Pit. I was playing him in friendlies a while ago with Roy and felt confident enough about it to go all the way. Took the first game alright but then the Bairs started happening.

 

[Deleted member]

FAKE JOLTEON ALERT!

Anyway:

@Lunchables Can you give a mini breakdown of your dash dancing with Roy? Like I'm just curious what you're thinking during it. Do you still use tap jump to move around or do you use a button now? I've always used tap jump but it's really awkward moving like that with it (idk if I want to move like that yet, just messing around with it).

Also dash dancing and then turning around -> D-Tilt is reallly eguhg. I'm not sure if you're just doing soft reads. Actually I should probably just go back and watch some videos for that because I feel like what might be happening is: grab -> position -> set up for D-Tilt/whatever -> reset/soft pressure if fail

Edit - Also just recently realizing Roy's F-Smash actually doesn't have a sourspot when it's like, above (and a little forward above) him. They just die.

I won't give you the whole thing about DDing being used to command the stage, since that's obvious. It's more important to understand that Roy is relatively slow for a "mobility" based character, aka understanding that your moves are above average to compensate. Down tilt trumps ASDI down, so you can catch people in the middle of their dash because they're going to either get popped up or forced into knockdown (aka tech chased). If the opponent decides to enter your territory, dash back side b and pivot nair are excellent at stuffing things out because as long as the opponent isn't on the ground to crouch those moves, they will get slaughtered. Sometimes you can also call out people with raw grab if they hide in shield a lot or pick panic options, and this is part of why it can get tricky because there isn't like a single answer as to what Roy does when hes dash dancing.

Also I hold the analog stick with my index finger and thumb, and as a result I tapjump to wavedash. AFAIK it makes a lot of my movement and technical stuff easier to perform since my inputs are more precise.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Awesome post. Also why Roy is so dang scary?

 

[Player -0]

I won't give you the whole thing about DDing being used to command the stage, since that's obvious. It's more important to understand that Roy is relatively slow for a "mobility" based character, aka understanding that your moves are above average to compensate. Down tilt trumps ASDI down, so you can catch people in the middle of their dash because they're going to either get popped up or forced into knockdown (aka tech chased). If the opponent decides to enter your territory, dash back side b and pivot nair are excellent at stuffing things out because as long as the opponent isn't on the ground to crouch those moves, they will get slaughtered. Sometimes you can also call out people with raw grab if they hide in shield a lot or pick panic options, and this is part of why it can get tricky because there isn't like a single answer as to what Roy does when hes dash dancing.

Also I hold the analog stick with my index finger and thumb, and as a result I tapjump to wavedash. AFAIK it makes a lot of my movement and technical stuff easier to perform since my inputs are more precise.

Oh cool, so basically you have to get a soft/hard/general read for D-Tilts instead of being able to just do it? Then for reacting stuff other stuff is used.

I just use a thumb for stuff so derp. I like my thumb though.

wording is weird

Edit - Also why do you opt for Nair rather than Bair for some combo enders when they're like high(ish?) in the air? It seems prone to SDI and overall not as powerful

 

[Deleted member]

Reading is cool and all, but you can usually ignore getting reads and just abusing stage positioning until your opponent cracks. That's apart of the whole "DDing to command the stage" thing that has been explained a million times on melee guides and such.

The goal is to press your position on the stage, whether it's by being below them, in the middle of the stage, forcing them to the ledge, etc. Forcing your opponent into being the first to whiff/commit is the goal of dash dancing, and it is accomplished in many different ways. As long as you're doing it right, It's like forcing pressure onto your opponent without actually making any commitment yourself. The process goes a lot deeper with conditioning your opponent into forfeiting X options and killing him as a result.

The point of my original post was to talk about the OTHER things you do besides what I just mentioned, since what I just mentioned has been preached in melee for the past 15 years or w/e

edit: 90% of the time I just use bair to kill. Sometimes I nair them off of the stage by double jumping and rising into them with the 2nd hit of the nair, which both looks super cool and absolutely destroys them.

 

[Player -0]

I'm mainly referring to the fact that getting a D-Tilt out while dash dancing (dashing part) without stopping your dash (wish wavedash or thing) to do a bait is kind of weird. Unless I'm supposed to be baiting them with wavedashes or something.

I think I pretty much get every other part of it.

Or I need to get good so I can like, pivot D-Tilt which probably isn't going to happen.

 

[Sundark]

I'm mainly referring to the fact that getting a D-Tilt out while dash dancing (dashing part) without stopping your dash (wish wavedash or thing) to do a bait is kind of weird. Unless I'm supposed to be baiting them with wavedashes or something.

I think I pretty much get every other part of it.

Or I need to get good so I can like, pivot D-Tilt which probably isn't going to happen.

Naw, see the dash dance basically IS the bait. No matter how many times it's written down, it's a difficult concept to grasp until you really feel it work for you. Because Roy can threaten Dtilt out of a DD really easily (run cancel DD or a WD in if the spacing is off), your opponent will feel an itch to react to you dashing up close to them. That's why you keep going back and forth if you can, waiting for them to rebuff a Dtilt that isn't going to happen until it's punishing what they throw out (what Lunchables means by them "cracking"). Your opponent's 'itch' will get harder and harder to resist the more you cut off their options, by having them at the ledge or stuck in shield or on a platform or something, which is what makes stage control the concept it is, and how important it is.

 

[Life]

Slightly tangential to the topic: Is there a ranking of platform heights on stages? This is relevant to some Wolf stuff I'm looking into right now (specifically runoff laser WL variants--IIRC it's frame-perfect on YS and merely kinda hard until you figure it out everywhere else--trying to figure out where it's easiest and hardest--also where it's possible from top platforms, e.g. I know it's possible from the top BF platform to the side ones but I'm not sure about say Dreamland).

If stuff like runoff b-turnaround/b-reverse laser waveland becomes standard Wolf practice, that'd be pretty big for his meta, as he gains a pseudo-reliable way to threaten the space directly below him when he's on a platform (and if the opponent tries to intercept, you SH or you bair them or you shield drop or or or... that last one's pretty big actually, since shield drop out of run is probably the easiest way to shield drop)

 

[Deleted member]

my top tier is fox mk diddy and maybe wolf. i dont have a 5th in top tier but i probably put zss 5th at the top of my 2nd tier. for reference, i put sheik 9th.

 

[DMG]

I used to think Falcon could maybe be Top 5, but I don't see it as persuasive anymore. One way to describe it might be that there's 6+ characters who are way "safer" to pick at any given point in bracket. The 4 characters I would bet my tournament life on are the 4 Umbreon named: Fox MK Diddy Wolf.

I think stuff like ROB or ZSS are more niche and less universally good than top 4 (also kinda harder to pick up and learn their quirks), but I'd also rate them as much safer than Falcon. Falco and Sheik seem a bit safer over Falcon, although from here on possibly all lumped with Falcon and others into a more general category of "still pretty good but a cut below the top 5-ish". Like the relative goodness of Sheik compared to Falcon might not matter a ton, if there's a sub-group even ahead of them.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i mean when i rate relative goodness its within the context of using the character correctly in a tournament setting. so CF might have a questionable MU occasionally like MK but he also just obliterates huge chunks of the cast too. i have falcon at 6th, and for a while it felt really weird to put him over rob sheik falco etc, but you start to look at how good his strengths are and the downsides are mitigated quite a bit

 

[Kulty]

Hey guys,

There was a guy who asked me recently that Project M is a game about matchups. Is that true? He recommended me to have 2 or more characters if I want to take PM seriously, but here's the thing...

I made a sort of legend to say how many characters I'm gonna focus on in each Smash game: I main ''Random'' if I don't play a game competitively, 1 character for Smash that I like to play (but not my main focus), 2 characters on the Smash games that I focus on more, 3 if I only play one Smash game competitively (loyal to one Smash game). I play PM and Smash 4 competitively. I focus more on Smash 4 since I like the game more and I'm more comfortable with it. It means I only play one character in PM and two in Smash 4. I don't want to take PM as seriously as Smash 4 and I really only wanted to pick one character. That guy also said that if you want to only play one character, I have to pick someone who's solo-viable but I don't know who they are.

Here comes my other question. Who are the characters that are solo-mainable? I know there are a ton of them, but I want to know them. You can use the first 3.6 tier list for reference (http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-underground-and-reslived-present-project-m-v3-6-tier-list.426830/). I personally feel that all characters from the ''exceptional'' and ''significant'' tiers are solo-mainable along with Sonic, Pikachu and Luigi (the three latter are harder but still) and they are perfectly fine without secondaries. Am I making any sense? Sorry again if I bring another out-of-nowhere topic...