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Tier List Speculation

D e l t a

That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
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Yoshi's tail isn't disjointed in Project M...why?
because reasons

Also, you guys forgot about Shiny Zubat. He's been consistently performing well using Yoshi

If Hamyojo was still playing I'm sure he'd be close to Tap's skill level. The H2H comparison of Tap to Zubat is difficult since they verse players of different playstyles. I'd give the edge to Tap since he has more notable wins - Ripple & Kels come to mind
 

didds

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Can't speak for brawl or 64 but yea his tail isn't disjointed in melee or pm. Maybe slightly on like dsmash or something? Idk I only play the game I don't know much about frame data and whatnot. Simple farm boy
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Just a Simple Rapper Pikachu from the Hardcore Brooklyn Farms
 

W.A.C.

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Can't speak for brawl or 64 but yea his tail isn't disjointed in melee or pm. Maybe slightly on like dsmash or something? Idk I only play the game I don't know much about frame data and whatnot. Simple farm boy
Weird. It's super disjointed in Smash 4.
 

didds

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Like I said it doesn't matter much. Watch amsa and you'll see how Yoshi gets by because he's able to place hitboxes in a lot of different places through his movement and quirky, niche moves. Yoshi needs to use things like eggs and neutral b to threaten space so he can get his bait and punish game moving.
 

DrinkingFood

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DrinkingFood DrinkingFood On DI away, wouldn't you basically always run out of space pretty quickly on most stages? Especially since you're not very likely to be starting the chain throw on the edge of FD facing the middle or somewhere comparable every time.
Oh no, I got a spacie offstage in combo position, whatever shall I do?

But seriously tho. You could just uthrow and then knock them further out when they DI away (with like an upair or fair), which then will net you a powerful edgeguard opportunity; or DI mix-up with fthrow to either get super low fthrow angles or prevent them from DIing the uthrow away if they fear the fthrow.
 
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Ya Boy GP

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re: What MUs Fox might lose

I can only really speak about the MUs that I play in my region (NY/NJ) because that's mostly the only experience I have.

Jaden, Malachi, and I all came to an agreement that Fox loses to Peach 55:45. The introduction of AGT makes it so you can't camp peach as effectively as you used to be able to, plus the nerf in laser damage makes laser camping less viable in general. Peach also has way better edgeguarding because she can float cancel from the ledge to cover more options than she used to be able to. Fox having less kill potential isn't that big of a deal, but Fox needs to outplay Peach in neutral one or two more times than he used to, which is kind of an issue. With laser camping nerfed, the neutral isn't as heavily in Fox's favor as it used to be, but circle camping with top platform is still just as effective as it was in Melee, so he still slightly wins neutral in my opinion. The punish game and edgeguard game as heavily skewed in Peachs favor, so slightly winning neutral isn't enough of a reason for Fox to go even or win the MU, hence why we think it's 55:45 for Peach.

Fox could potentially lose to DDD, but I don't think the MU has been developed enough for me to have a solid opinion on it. As of right now I personally think it's 50:50, from what I've seen, Fox wins the neutral really hard and has a decent punish game because you can juggle him at low percents and kill with drillshine usmash or uthrow uair. Maybe the neutral isn't being played properly on the D3s end in my region, I'd probably have to play ripple a bit to get a better understanding of how the neutral is played and what options each character has out of neutral. I can't look at Ripples wins over people like Westballz, Lucky, etc. and use that as justification that D3 wins the MU because there's a lot of counterplay that those players aren't using against D3. There's no top level Fox players that are well versed in the D3 MU, so it's largely an underdeveloped MU and I don't want to concretely put a MU spread on it, because it's probably wrong. (Lucky's a good player and knows PM matchups, but he really only knows the MUs that people play in Socal)

The only good ROB I've played against is Bstuk in a MM. I also think this MU is extremely underexplored from the Foxs end and putting a number on the MU spread would just be a guess. I think that BaconPancakes could tell you more about the MU than I could since he lives in the same region as Bstuk, but any high level Fox players that I've seen play the MU just have no idea what to do (i.e. Mojo vs. Drinkingfood) because PM isn't their main game and they don't play the Rob MU ever. I think only after playing DF would I have a good idea of how the MU is played, but odds are that'll never happen. rip.

MK is a character I think could beat Fox 55:45. These two characters just beat each other up. The neutral is evenish in my opinion, any option Fox has out of neutral, MK has an answer to, and vice versa. The punish game & edgeguarding game is slightly in MKs favor. MK has very flowcharty edgeguarding so it's easy to guarantee Fox not making it back to the stage once he's below the ledge, and MK can cover side-b very effectively considering he has a 3 frames ftilt and a dtilt. MK theoretically has 0-death tech chases on reaction against Fox, and even without that, his punish game is still very healthy. There's probably a lot of counterplay I could do that I haven't thought of yet so the MU spread is prone to change.

MUs I think are even or roughly even in the current meta: Marth, maybe Ike, Falco, Pikachu, Snake(?).

MUs I think Fox wins even though a lot of people think it's even: Sonic, DK, Diddy, Lucario,



The issue with talking about Fox MUs is that any top level play is just the opponent knowing the MU while Fox doesn't know the MU, so people think Fox loses the MU meanwhile it's just the Fox that doesn't know the MU or proper counterplay. So talking about Fox MUs is tricky. I don't even think my opinions on Fox MUs has much validity to it since I don't consider myself a high level Fox player either.
 
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Ripple

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FYI

Machiavelli plays or did play DDD against lucky very often because he couldn't beat lucky with ivy out whatever other reason. And Mach is probably considered to still be the 3rd best DDD.

You really should look at my wins over kels, whom I'm 7-1 with. His fox is still extremely good and is shown by his miom rank. He does have MU experience and still loses every time
 
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Ya Boy GP

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FYI

Machiavelli plays or did play DDD against lucky very often because he couldn't beat lucky with ivy out whatever other reason. And Mach is probably considered to still be the 3rd best DDD.

You really should look at my wins over kels, whom I'm 7-1 with. His fox is still extremely good and is shown by his miom rank. He does have MU experience and still loses every time
My bad, if I'm being completely honest, I don't really keep up with any scenes that aren't my own. I probably shouldn't be talking about top level play for any MU that happens outside of my region in the first place.
 

D e l t a

That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
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My bad, if I'm being completely honest, I don't really keep up with any scenes that aren't my own. I probably shouldn't be talking about top level play for any MU that happens outside of my region in the first place.
If people didn't talk about matchups or create speculation purely based on lack of skill or knowledge in other regions, this thread wouldn't exist in the first place.
 

DMG

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Naw just play Zard like he's fat Marth or weird DK
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

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bang bang

10bang

edit: this is a ****post I am sorry but hey look a luigi got second playing against bunch of melee characters

also snake has less than 10 winning mus, clearly
(although I can't really say that sarcastically because all but 2 of prof's top 32 matches were against either luigi (abate) or fatties (zen and can-d))

(but then again otek says that his luigi would have beaten prof?? idk mang)
 
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Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
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GP's post seems pretty good. I have a sneaking suspicion that Pikachu could very possibly be slightly advantaged against Fox as well. Just about every aspect of the MU that he lacks in Melee was improved in PM.

His recovery is still one of the best in class, his tilts are better, he has a real back facing aerial which chains into offstage positioning from two of his most used moves (utilt/uair), he has a difficult but still viable way to chase/set up after stray hits with QAC and his generally low damage output doesn't matter as much against Fox as it does other characters. Plus, I feel like Pika is very thankful for PAL usmash as well as the landing lang increases on Fox's recovery moves.
 

Strong Badam

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I am quite wary of comparisons of the matchup "compared to Melee." The stagelist alone grants Fox a significant advantage compared to Melee. No forced FD and a bunch of large stages for him to run around.
 

DMG

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^^^ Stage dynamic is 95% more in Fox's favor than it was in Melee. Can't think of too many MU's where Melee 3/5 rules and Melee stages would strictly benefit him.
 

ThegreatVaporeon1

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bang bang

10bang

edit: this is a ****post I am sorry but hey look a luigi got second playing against bunch of melee characters

also snake has less than 10 winning mus, clearly
(although I can't really say that sarcastically because all but 2 of prof's top 32 matches were against either luigi (abate) or fatties (zen and can-d))

(but then again otek says that his luigi would have beaten prof?? idk mang)
I think Luigis need to rely on wavedrops against snake to beat him. There's no real way to approach him with tranq being a threat for every one of luigi's approach options. Either that or Luigi has to play super lame and throw fireballs out and wait for an opening.
 

Ya Boy GP

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I am quite wary of comparisons of the matchup "compared to Melee." The stagelist alone grants Fox a significant advantage compared to Melee. No forced FD and a bunch of large stages for him to run around.
That's funny, I think the opposite for the Peach MU. I think the stagelist heavily favors Peach.

The stagelist in my region is

Starters
GHZ
SV
BF
PS2
Delfinos

Counterpicks
WW
FD
FoD

For starters, peach bans Battlefield and PS2. That leaves me with a choice of going to GHZ, Smashville, or Delfinos/Dreamland.

GHZ is pretty bad in my opinion because your circle camping ability is a lot more restricted when there's only one platform, making your movement more predictable. Also the stage itself being small means Peach can close the space on you more often. Needless the say the blast zones are heavily against you with the high ceiling and small sides. The only redeeming part of this stage is the walls for me to mix up my recovery. Also I'm personally just very uncomfortable on small stages so I ban it out of comfort.

Smashville is good, but there's no walls for me to ride up on and one platform makes it hard to circle camp. The stage itself is bigger which is also a plus, but she can chain grab me pretty hard to get me off stage and then edgeguard me harder since my recovery is limited. Even though all of these issues exist for the stage in this MU, it's still one of the better stages for me.

Delfinos is actually the best starter for Fox in this MU. The large blast zones suck because Peach lives forever. So instead of winning neutral 1 or 2 more times like you normally would, now it's 3 or 4 times. It just makes it harder to take stocks and gain a lead. But the large size of the stage, the platform layout, and the walls make this stage the best starter for the matchup in my opinion.

Counterpicks

If Fox wins, he has to choose between banning Dreamland (it's good but don't expect to kill peach under 130-150%), FD (horrible for obvious reasons), FoD, and GHZ (Both bad for reasons above). So in a 3/5, Peach is guaranteed 2 good stages as a counterpick. It's important to stress the fact that laser camping isn't that good anymore so just having a big stage isn't enough for the stage to be in Fox's favor in PM.

If Peach wins, she has to choose between banning WW (Way too small, she dies too easily and it's easy to circle camp), Battlefield, and PS2. Both of the Peach players in my region love PS2 so they never ban it because they're on the stage so it's basically not even a bad stage :(.

TL;DR Starters are in Peach's favor, and Peach is guaranteed 2 great stages as a counterpick so she does great in Bo5s, while Fox is only guaranteed 1 good stage.
 
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didds

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On the real I still think pika fair is one of his most beneficial buffs that he received in his pm transition. Covers one of his flaws of neutral from melee and gives him an extra usmash setup.

And being able to set up a kill move like usmash from a multi-hit, slightly disjointed aerial attached to a character as mobile as pikachu ain't bad

Actually does anyone know if that's even a true setup? Like it works in practice but I don't test stuff so I don't know if there's any counter to it
 

shairn

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I am quite wary of comparisons of the matchup "compared to Melee." The stagelist alone grants Fox a significant advantage compared to Melee. No forced FD and a bunch of large stages for him to run around.
But there's no universally agreed-upon stagelist, and stagelists differ wildly between regions, so I think that point is moot for the time being, at least until we can all agree on what stages to use.
 

JesteRace

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Yeah, I think we've been over this. The "more large stages than in Melee favors Fox/Falcon/etc" argument only works if your stagelist is skewed towards large stages... which, well, don't do that lol.
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

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User was warned for this post
"squirtle is dumb" - strong bad

actually more importantly is lol all these snakes

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Ripple

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Let's add diddy to the last of stupid characters.

I'm not gonna be paying for awhile after sf2. I simply cannot perform out of region and I'm tired of running into impossible MUs round 1 or 2
 
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trash?

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"squirtle is dumb" - strong bad

actually more importantly is lol all these snakes

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TOP PLAYER TIPS: if you don't know a matchup it's the game's fault
 
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DrinkingFood

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Knowing the snake matchup doesn't make it less dumb FTR lol. It just means you get used to dumb ass ****

@Oracle @Umbreon I vote we make a discord/skype group/subreddit particularly for talking about how dumb snake is
 

trash?

witty/pretty
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some of these statements being made on twitter are like a single degree away from a scrubquotesx submission, is the mocking bit

there's "I don't like this matchup and I think it's miserable to deal with" and then there's "I literally can't even be bothered to recall the person who beat me because my salt is more important than anything resembling sportsmanship"
 
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KakuCP9

What does it mean to be strong?
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Can someone clarify how Squirtle is not a smash character? I get he's an annoying piece of crap constantly slipping and sliding all over the place, but saying he's not a character sounds a bit harsh.
 

Avro-Arrow

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Depends on the operational definition of following the rules. I think at least Luigi, Snake, and Squirtle are all too janky.
 

Life

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>2016

>complaining about characters

tellin' you guys, it's the future of the meta

also I got bopped at today's tournament but nobody cares so w/e
 
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