Tier List Speculation

GengarKid

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Lolz mk is pretty bad. He might have all the things you mentioned but he is so small and slow but he doesn't have a disjoint as good as jiggs back air so he's pretty bad in the air. On ground he is OK . Maybe not low tier but mid tier for sure
 
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"He might have a good DD" - 5th best in the game

"He might have good edgeguarding" - three jumps and a sword, also Dtilt

"He might have a solid combo game" - please go look at Dtilt, Usmash, and Uair. They're really really good.

"But he's so small" - so?

"But he's so slow" - uh, he's the 4th fastest character.

"Doesn't have a disjoint as good as jiggs back air" - so a character has to have a move equal to Jiggs' back air or they're automatically bad in the air?

Hopefully a troll. If not... you're embarrassing yourself.
 
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NOTMalachi

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Man, I want to hang with Umbreon Umbreon and NOTMalachi NOTMalachi for like a week and grind out more Sheik.

Max, are you going to Smash and Splash or Neb (or w/e) in NY in April?

Malachi, if you're going, let's play some. But onto actual post related things.

Malachi, what are your thoughts on Peach vs Sheik in 3.6? Hanky is still absolutely destroying us (Me, Fizzle, Drephen, etc) in it. I keep hovering between 6-4 Peach and 55-45 Peach. I can beat the other ones around here because I play Tyler so much, but it's so ****ing hard.

I almost think Fox is an easier MU by now.
Vanz and I play this MU all the time from both perceptive and we both agree it's slightly peaches favor. Her new tools help her alot in the match up and sheik losing guaranteed follow ups off grabs makes it harder to kill. I actually really like Sheik vs Peach for both sides though lol.
And we should definitely play if you're going to Super Nova
 

Umbreon

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Alright thanks guys. I might start maining bowser just to see if he's actually bad. Might just stick to my main mk. I wanna make mk a top tier in people's eyes and not a low tier
good luck with that

Hmm. Why do you do backthrow on those specific characters? I generally use downthrow on everyone because it doesn't send them as far and as an old 3.6b habit. Even at higher percents, I never have a probelm with wavedashing to any of those characters as long as I start a run beforehand, even on full DI away. The whole No DI thing confused me as well. Couldn't you get dash attack(Or at the very least boost grab regrab) on a lot of semi fast fallers After like ~30 percent or so?
i'll see if i can get some labwork in to check dthrow more. the short version of my play is that bthrow has a higher release point so if the opponent is going to land i have slightly more time to react with the wavedash to their landing. CF is the same way, where you generally want to upthrow fox at 0% rather than dthrow because you know you have to tech chase regardless and upthrow gives you a better time advantage. using dthrow and a WD is what drephen innovated vs fox players in melee, which is a good basis to start with and im very familiar with it. i dont have any recent videos and tbh i dont enter much to begin with. i've been using WD out of the throw raw, dashing into it is worth looking into, and walking for that matter. actually buffing a walk might be the best because theres no way the opponent can DI behind you on angle 62 and it takes literally no skill to just hold walk before the throw animation finishes. will do some testing.

also **** 3.6b sheik

---

Ripple Ripple thanks, visually it looked around frame 14, i wasnt even close

Juushichi Juushichi i will be going to splash n smash. my plan was to fly up to pennsylvania, get my motorcycle running, and then take that to chicago and back down to texas. i needed an excuse to go get it and this is it lol

for what its worth, sheik vs peach feels pretty even to me. that said i havent played any of the good peach players yet so its mostly just me speculating
 
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G13_Flux

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mostly because people evaluate good and bad differently. bowser is a monster in some MUs but most people associate good with "every matchup"
which MUs? I asked this question recently but really didnt get straightforward answers. Id like to to know who you think bowser beats.
 

Umbreon

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which MUs? I asked this question recently but really didnt get straightforward answers. Id like to to know who you think bowser beats.
warioware, green hill zone, mostly. battlefield and fountain are good too. pretending that MUs only exist in the context of characters is too shallow and you'll forfeit tons of free margin. bowser wins because he dominates small stages, has a lot of lethal jank that people arent prepared for, and he just punishes really well which is good vs everyone.
 

Life

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How does bowser do vs falco? Crouching/crawling his lazers kind of invalidates falcos neutral, no?
...until you realize that Falco's favorite combo aerial also kills Bowser at like nil because no vertical recovery. Also, Bowser has to read a laser in order to actually DA through it. If he crawls, Falco does something else. Grab or shield probably.

It's not that bad, by Bowser standards, but I wouldn't say he wins.
 

G13_Flux

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warioware, green hill zone, mostly. battlefield and fountain are good too. pretending that MUs only exist in the context of characters is too shallow and you'll forfeit tons of free margin. bowser wins because he dominates small stages, has a lot of lethal jank that people arent prepared for, and he just punishes really well which is good vs everyone.
naming off stages that a character does well on doesnt mean that they have winning MUs though. I see your emphasis on the importance of stages, and understand what youre trying to say, but with you having said that bowser is a good CP character/has winning MUs, I am genuinely interested in your opinion and reasoning as to what character MUs bowser wins and on what stages. Mostly because you are a well respected player and for the sake of knowledge (and my roomate who mains bowser) I would like to know your thoughts.
 

Life

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Even if Bowser has a niche as a "small stage plus X" counterpick, couldn't you just use Ganondorf instead? Is there a character that stands a better chance vs. Ganon on WW than Bowser on YS (assuming both are legal)?

Oh, and I can't BELIEVE I only just realized I can have Lucario or Mewtwo sit near the edge and neutralB and use the charging hitbox to practice invincible ledgedash options. Wow.
 

JesteRace

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Since people are talking MK, what do we think about Link vs. MK? It doesn't seem as bad as it should be, I guess. Link's worst matchups are pretty much all the top tiers besides G&W and maybe Diddy (no experience with Diddy, so idk). And MK's speed and toolkit and combo game make it seem like it should be another bad matchups for Link, but idk. It seems fine. Maybe -1, maybe even close to 0. It seems like Link can outrange Metaknight pretty handily and combos him back pretty hard. Is there something the MK's I'm facing aren't doing that makes it bad or does Link have another decent top tier matchup?
 

Tomaster

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I think the only MU Bowser wins is ICs.
wasn't this matchup talked about as unwinnable for bowser like a month ago?

anyways, i made a list.


They are ordered within tiers. I think the general consensus on a lot of characters' placement has changed since the PMDT disbanded, the gaps are becoming more apparent, which was expected. With time I believe that the top 3 tiers in this list will dominate over the others (not like melee top tiers vs low tiers, but enough to make a difference.)
 
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Haha what. No one's general consensus is that Ganondorf is in a tier labeled ...

So if you think that represents any kind of apparent gap, IDK what to say.

Also the perception of ICs has only gone up over the last few months as we see people do more with them.
 

Tomaster

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Haha what. No one's general consensus is that Ganondorf is in a tier labeled ...

So if you think that represents any kind of apparent gap, IDK what to say.

Also the perception of ICs has only gone up over the last few months as we see people do more with them.
Not sure what you're trying to say... I never said my list represented the general consensus. The gap I was talking about is between the high tiers and the low tiers. Idk maybe it's just me but it seems that a line is starting to form between the exceptional characters and the less exceptional ones.

I don't know too much about icies, so that may have been a little off.
 

Life

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It works for non-attack options such as shield (obviously), as well as shine (less efficiently since you have to reset the bot, but it doesn't seem to outrange those hitboxes). Jab beat it out, though. Not sure about grab.
 
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I would definitely contest Icies being in most peoples' '...' tier, or 'garbage' tier, or 'i forgot about them but i hear they're bad so i put them at the bottom' tier, or 'why are they in the game' tier. I mean, sure, they obviously don't have the boon of wobbling anymore, but they still have by far the most powerful options off a grab out of every character in the game. Fair being a spike for both Climbers is honestly silly. And other than the wobbling issue, they've only gotten better. Their neutral has gotten hugely better with new desyncs and the buffs to blizzard. Their already good smash attacks have gotten even better with hitbox fixes. Belay killing is so good, because it helps their MUs against some of the floaties they've historically struggled with and it's very easy to set up off a juggle and even easier to set up after a grab. Their recovery is honestly incredible (aside from synced side-b going stupidly high and Sopo side-b being not literal garbage, belay would be actually broken as a recovery move were it not for the ledge-hog glitch), and their ledge play is worlds more consistent now. Also, I think people really underestimate the improvements to Nana's AI in this game. I've been alternating between Melee and Project M Ice Climbers for the past several days now and the improvement I notice from the former to the latter is stunning. It is so much easier to keep Nana by your side in PM, and removes an inherent randomness factor that slightly held them back in Melee. They were very good in Melee, but had a couple quirks that made them 'not quite right'. This was mitigated somewhat by wobbling, but obviously it's not a perfect tradeoff, as evidenced by a significant lack of Icies placings in major tournaments when compared with the other 'Top 8'. In PM, wobbling has been removed, but with the tradeoff of having a ton of those small quirks fixed or removed along with a host of other buffs.

That said, they obviously have cons. They're an inherently polarizing character, and it takes an extremely good player not to get destroyed by proper Icies counterplay. I think the major things holding them back in PM are certain MUs that capitalize on their biggest weaknesses. The 'problem' MUs are definitely Toon Link (because he destroys them so hard and is so common) and Peach (because she destroys them even harder and is a top-level threat character despite not being quite as popular as TL). Then there are weaker MUs that have carried over from Melee like Fox, Falco, Falcon, Ganon, and Samus. These aren't unwinnable, but are noticeably rough for Icies and an additional problem because these characters are also very popular. I'd really just characterize these MUs as the Climbers' "weaker" MUs because I can't think of a better word to describe them. Then there are the less problematic MUs like Ivy and Zelda that are the same as their weaker Melee MUs in the sense that they're tricky but not unwinnable, and they have the bonus of being not nearly as common or worrisome at top-level play (at least right now).

So, how much of an impact do those cons actually have? There's one thing to be said for their weaker Melee MUs: Icies lost to the majority of the upper echelon of the roster and struggled against a few random mid-tiers in Melee, and they were still able to succeed. A few of those MUs have really only gotten better despite the removal of wobbling. The same philosophy can be applied to their weaker PM MUs. I would classify Toon Link as a pretty big problem, but a mountain that's climbable (forgive my pun, I didn't notice until I finished the sentence). Peach is kind of a huge problem, but we've seen glimmers of evidence that it's doable at a high level of play in both Melee and PM (shoutouts to Phresh, who is only on the rise against Jaden's Peach and I am certain is on his way to taking a win eventually). So they're definitely held back by their weak MUs, and the two problem MUs I just mentioned, but imo when thrown into PM they stand a better chance than, say, Melee Ganon or Doc or Luigi. Or Melee Icies, for that matter.

Make of that what you will.
 

GengarKid

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With this post I wanna say correct me if I'm wrong because I seem to have gotten some backlash before. But why is fox put in his own tier? I don't think he deserves his own tier if he has losing mus. I think he loses to Marth Falco peach metaknight Samus maybe pika maybe Ike. And also why do I see a lot of ics in bottom 5? They have a better recovery by far and better desync options. And I recently saw an infinite with them so it's almost as if they still have wobbling. Sorry if I'm saying something crazy again.
 

DMG

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I dunno if Peach destroys IC's harder than TL. TL vs IC's looks about unplayable if they camp on certain stages. Like the average person picking up a CP character to IC's would probably lean on TL: just bomb and throw stuff vs learning Peach float/hitbox/timing variables to wall them out and be lame.

IC's have some improvements but they have headwinds pushing against them. Melee char buffs, some new Brawl chars that probably do pretty well, an expanded stage list that generally prevents IC's getting FD for some MU's but still leaves them open to certain camping etc.

Putting IC's bottom 5 isn't a huge deal if you think bottom 5 in PM are all still relatively better than say Melee Ganon levels of viability. It's not like bot 5 in PM literally translates to the same levels of bad as Melee Roy/Kirby/Bowser/G^W/Ness
 
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CORY

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With this post I wanna say correct me if I'm wrong because I seem to have gotten some backlash before. But why is fox put in his own tier? I don't think he deserves his own tier if he has losing mus. I think he loses to Marth Falco peach metaknight Samus maybe pika maybe Ike. And also why do I see a lot of ics in bottom 5? They have a better recovery by far and better desync options. And I recently saw an infinite with them so it's almost as if they still have wobbling. Sorry if I'm saying something crazy again.
because people overrate him slightly. he's still probably easily the best in the game, but not by enough to warrant his own tier. i'm also pretty sure he doesn't lose to any of those characters, they're all probably 4.5-5.5 kind of matchups at worst.

mainly falco, marth, peach, since the core of that matchup hasn't been notably altered going into pm. the nerfs he got aren't ones that really change how he wants to approach any of those matchups. i don't think fox was considered losing in any of those in melee and he can still do everything he wants to, just really killing a little bit later. samus is better overall than melee, but fox still has the tools to rush down and tack on incidental damage (though i believe she had a decent fox matchup due to being one of the few characters able to force him to approach on her terms? this would still be true, but everything else in the matchup isn't going to be strongly against fox).

pika and ike can't really outfox fox, though ike would probably make fox feel really really bad about his life decisions once he gets a hit and puts fox offstage. otherwise, on nonsmall stages, fox can still make life really awkward for ike by just dd camping at the edge of his safe zone for quickdraw and just putting a hitbox (nair, dash attack) out when he starts one up, or just shielding/rolling behind him when he starts up. pika would still play like the melee matchup, with pika having a buffed annoyance option in neutral via qac shenanigans. otherwise, fox still gets to do his same stupid stuff and as long as he can keep from getting touched (similar to melee, again).

mk fox i've heard a lot of varying opinions, but the most in favor of mk i can recall is slight edge, but only after mk's metagame has grown to the point of optimized punishes (i.e. semi consistent touch of death on fox for winning neutral). it's generally considered mostly even as of now.

anyone with more experience with those characters, however, feel free to correct me. i'm just operating off of the general matchup knowledge i've picked up along the way
 

Tomaster

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With this post I wanna say correct me if I'm wrong because I seem to have gotten some backlash before. But why is fox put in his own tier? I don't think he deserves his own tier if he has losing mus. I think he loses to Marth Falco peach metaknight Samus maybe pika maybe Ike. And also why do I see a lot of ics in bottom 5? They have a better recovery by far and better desync options. And I recently saw an infinite with them so it's almost as if they still have wobbling. Sorry if I'm saying something crazy again.
none of those are really losing matchups though, especially not Ike. They're all even or Fox wins.
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

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fox is more than likely (saying this because diddy and wolf exist, and we know they're good but we don't really know how good they are yet) the best character in the game but not by a significant enough margin that he deserves his own tier, not by a long shot.

the only character that deserves their own tier is bowser, simply because he has no winning matchups, a feat that no other character can claim (that being said, I think bowser's mu spread is honestly not that bad, it's between 60-40 and 50-50 against most people except for ics and a few others)
 
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GengarKid

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I didn't mean anyone beating fox by a large margin. But let's take Falco for example. He has to beat fox if they're even in melee and in pm Falco is buffed.
 

CORY

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falco also had his dair nerfed and most buffs were incidental (ability to rar letting him more easily us bair in approaches and the brawl physics things letting him autocancel bair out of shorthop are nice but not huge; wavebouncing lasers is supposed to be incredibly good but i don't know enough about their implementation).

there's also looking at what the changes done to the character actually effect in the match. fox still plays his neutral exactly the same, his punish game is almost entirely the same (usmash and uair nerfs change some things, but you're still nairplaning and drill waveshining around a lot), and he can still gimp falco well. falco still controls the horizontal plane incredibly well and punishes really hard. he can still gimp fox mostly the same (dair nerf means he'll probably trade more often if he can force fox to come upwards with firefox, but fox is still just dead if he's trading with falco dair).

nothing essential has changed in the matchup. fox didn't completely lose his ground speed and amazing shffl options and his shine is still incredibly safe on shield. falco still makes you play his game with sh lasers and converts into pillar combos and then can kill well with smashes and his dair. matchup's still probably even.
 
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I didn't mean anyone beating fox by a large margin. But let's take Falco for example. He has to beat fox if they're even in melee and in pm Falco is buffed.
Falco is certainly not buffed.

And yeah, what CORY said. Fox's nerfs mean he just takes a little longer to secure a kill, but he's doing it with all the incredible tools he had before, and using them in exactly the same way. And his lag is now worse after landing on stage right out of Up B. Which means he now has his jump back if he gets hit.
 
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Avro-Arrow

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In his defence, some people think Falco v Fox is 55/45. Same for Marth v Fox. Also, some people believe Peach v Fox is 50/50, and it's not illogical to assume Peach's buffs/Fox's nerds could be significant enough to win (added survivability makes a difference). I don't think any of those characters beat Fox personally, but I think chewing someone out for it is pointless.

Re: Ike, he loses badly to Fox but his punish game makes up for it if the Fox is unfamiliar and this makes it look even at a first glance.

Re: MK, I haven't seen anyone say MK has a a slight edge, but I see a lot of people saying 45/55 or maybe slightly worse.

Re: Samus, in Melee Samus does not go even with Fox (probably, although it's close enough) since Foxes aren't very good at the match up in general. I think in PM it could be even (in realistic terms) because of her added survivability and slight buffs elsewhere.
 
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CORY

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45-55 split isn't really losing, though. that's more like "slight edge to this character", so mostly player v player. even 6-4, though technically a true losing matchup (it would technically lose in a bo5) still has enough wiggle room to make up character disparities. past that you start to get into counter character or the need to heavily outplay the other side territory.

i was mostly trying to explain rationale behind why the popular opinion is fox is still the best character, even post nerf. homeboy seems to not be a troll (on further posting), just really underinformed so i figured i'd do my part to illucidate stuff the best i can.

for mk, i was saying the best matchup analysis i've heard at all was slight edge, later in the meta when mk has been more optimized. as of now, i agree with you on 45-55, from everything i've read up on and seen.
 
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the thing about ICs not getting fd is kinda overblown because they also are guaranteed to be able to get either fd, smashville, ps2, or ghz
I did a big writeup on Icies stage choice a while back, but the gist of it is this: in Melee, FD was important because it eliminated platforms, which Icies have trouble dealing with (though not as much trouble as most people think). In Melee, it didn't matter where you were on the stage when you grabbed them, because surprise! Icies had an infinite that worked anywhere on the stage and guaranteed a kill from that part of the stage. This was true in Brawl as well. In PM, they don't have an infinite (on everybody that works anywhere--they do have an infinite that works in a specific place on specific characters). Right now their strongest options are in the corner, because of the handoff. And it's hard to corner carry on FD because it's a super big stage. So it's significantly worse for Icies than it used to be. On the flip side, Icies have more leeway for handoffs on platforms than they used to, so platforms can be of more use than they were and can lead to a lot of kills. On smaller stages like GHZ, Yoshi's, FoD, WW, etc. it is easier for them to corner carry and get kills even earlier than they did in Melee with handoff into fair spike. Even relatively large stages with platforms like SV, PS2, and DL can arguably be a strict advantage over FD because they all provide opportunities for inescapable handoffs in places that aren't the ledge, where FD does not. So whether or not FD is good for Icies in a certain situation is a decision that makes you weigh between your neutral and your punishes. Tl;dr, it's not as important for Icies to get FD as it used to be (and it's not like Icies could only win on FD in Melee anyhow). So the different stagelist doesn't actually hurt them as much as a lot of people assume. In fact, their best stage in PM is arguably Green Hill Zone. It's kind of like a mini FD in that the platform isn't too huge of a nuisance to work around (like, people don't camp the GHZ platform that often because it's tiny and weird and spins around) but the stage is small so it's very easy to corner carry. Also, Delfino's can pretty much go to hell as far as I'm concerned, because it's all of the disadvantages of FD with exactly none of the advantages, and all of the disadvantages of a platform stage with exactly none of those advantages. So, I think that's an adequate summary?

DMG DMG I agree with all your other points. Just needed an opportunity to nerd out over Icies for a little (I'll take them as long as people keep giving them to me lol)
 
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