Tier List Speculation

[The Baron]

Spoiler

1st tier is ordered, 2nd tier and most beyond are not. It's pretty huge I admit, but I feel like there's ~20 chars above the rest to some degree and splitting that into 2-3 tiers seems less accurate. Maybe A+, A, A- distinctions would be more accurate? Too late DON'T CARE they are all great. 2nd tier are not all totally equal with each other: if a split were to be made I'd separate M2 from TL and call TL to Pika A- or something.

Rating people past the Alrights tier is more loose grouping than strict order as well. It's only past Yoshi that you rarely see any tourney success with a char (Jiggs is the outlier I guess but she's incredibly difficult to assess in PM). Under Yoshi, D3 probably has the most success but he's also kinda legit bad so it's difficult to say.

this new generator is bothering me. Everyone from not goods and downwards looks either depressed or resigned. Especially yoshi and snake.

 

[DMG]

this new generator is bothering me. Everyone from not goods and downwards looks either depressed or resigned. Especially yoshi and snake.

If you were Yoshi, you'd be sad too in PM. Muh Parry

 

[Keman]

I would like to say I do not like the "Bad Ideas" Tier labeling (I know its a joke but still)>.>

Zhime's Zelda would go deep at a national! I swear a lot of tier list seem to make it look like there is a bigger gap in the Characters then there really is.

And is it just my imagination but are people generally saying DK is better after seeing what Thunderz did with him? Imagine if Zhime or some good IC's player traveled a lot to big tourneys.

Edit: I guess the only fix is to have everyone all in the same tier line loosely ordered from top to bottom!

 

[DMG]

Ripple goes balls deep at Nationals, should I raise Dedede 30 spots?

 

[Keman]

yes you should have everyone in the Winners tier, because we all win by just getting to play this great game >.>

 

[DMG]

If you check my list, I only have 4 colors effectively. Grey to Black (21 to like 35th or something) is more akin to B+, B, and B-. At the same time, the difference between someone in B- and B+ seems noticeable bigger than the difference between any 2 characters in the top ~20 (which is why there's like 14 chars all in 1 tier, possibly more accurate if they are split into A+ and A-?)

You could have tiers mean relatively small changes in viability (which would fit PM if you do 7+ tiers) or you can have tiers be fairly significant and do gradients to cover PM (I did a bit both). The lower characters are kinda hard to assess, but I'd reckon most people would have a similar top 20. Stuff beyond top 20 is kinda clumped together. You can draw lines here or there but practically it's mostly all the characters sitting in different sections of the same boat beyond that point.

 

[Strong Badam]

And is it just my imagination but are people generally saying DK is burbetter after seeing what Thunderz did with him?

I don't think DK's any better than I thought previously. Thunderz is amazing and has realized everything I thought DK capable of since forever ago. Would love to see how he does against like, Oracle, Mr. Lz/Dakpo, ESAM, Frozen, Phresh, etc.. People definitely don't consider matchup spreads when they look at tournament placing. Wario is absolutely a better character than DK, but he doesn't beat him. The same cannot be said for a lot of other characters, and Thunderz got to play two Warios on his trip to WF's at FinalBOSS, instead of, say, Hero of Time. DK's weaknesses haven't magically disappeared =)

 

[DMG]

Thunderz was on a roll

Edit:

Spoiler

Updated to more accurately convey some gaps not being full blown tier differences, also Pit was in wrong spot gg

 

[didds]

It's not too sad being yoshi, don't underestimate the mileage you get from people seemingly trying to play mus horribly.

Hey maybe you won't get punished by nair out of shield again. Who woulda guessed a yoshi would cc dsmash more than once in a match? Did you know yoshis double jump has armor?

 

[DMG]

The Dino has seen better days, but it's cool he can jump OOS like a real character

 

[Soft Serve]

While we're talking about yoshi, might as well clear up some misconceptions

Theres mis-information that was spread about his dtilt hurtboxes extending fully out before the hitboxes, so if there was a hitbox active in the space of his tail it wouldn't clank and he would just get hit. Yoshi mains that thought this did it in training more with 1/4th speed or something.

Its false.

In this gfy, marth's dtilt is active 1 frame before the yoshi dtilt becomes active. They still clank. slow it down and watch it frame by frame. Theres nothing special about how yoshi's dtilt works with trading/clanking/hitbox and hurtbox extension. Yoshi does move slightly forward physically before he swings but the tail is never extended before the hitbox is out. It bothers me so much when people say that his dtilt doesn't work.

Yoshi is still underwhelming although he is no means bad. Just too much work imo.

 

[Boiko]

But Softie, THE HALF FRAMES.

 

[Ripple]

The Dino has seen better days, but it's cool he can jump OOS like a real character

But not frame 1-6 like a real character

 

[D e l t a]

how does wolf lack kill potential OR a neutral game
And when I say lack, I really mean having anything short of a tippy-top tier neutral and versatile kill ability.

Dunno how anyone thinks he has neutral problems. No, he doesn't beat everything with high-priority moves like the other spacies. That's totally fine fine when you have his laser, speed, SH distance/aerial movement, and standing reach.

For the record, I never said he lacked kill power. To clarify, Wolf compared to the other characters above him except for Marth, all have guaranteed kill move setups or a kill throw / throw setup that isn't DI dependent. At the least, the characters above him also have better raw kill moves as well. Wolf's kill setups are lacking of guaranteed followups.

Same thing for his neutral game. Wolf doesn't lack a solid neutral game. Rather, the characters above him have much better neutral games and can easily outperform Wolf in neutral. This doesn't mean his neutral isn't good. It only means that he isn't as good as those above him.

 

[DMG]

Idk how good Wolf's neutral is or how exactly to place him, when a ton of his players are inconsistent or underperform. Idk how many times I see a DACUS or dash attack barely miss someone as they are about to land/tech. Even minor improvements like not missing those would catapult him to a more solid performance imo

 

[nimigoha]

I think Wolf is a tad too over-reliant on grabs at low percents, but I don't think that necessarily holds him back from the #2 spot. Just something to think about.

 

[Player -0]

I mean grab is essentially a go to option vs. anyone as anyone.

If you can't grab the opponent usually the reason is that they're jumping around (then shine and stuff becomes free to use) or they're IC's or something dumb. Especially considering he has other options that work (Dair/Nair/etc. Don't need to shine after, just go for straight grab to mess with opponent expecting a shine) as well as laser that allows him to get the grab.

I feel like I'm missing something though so someone expand/kill this.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I don't see how wolf has an issue getting grabs when he has his blaster

 

[Soft Serve]

And equivalent dash dancing to fox

And a drill that Beats cc and is safe on shield

 

[Life]

if wolf is overreliant on anything it's blaster

mainly 'cause he doesn't have fox/falco nair/bair so it's hard to just control a bunch of space with a high priority move over a decent amount of time unless you're shooting 'em

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Soft Serve

Thank you. I tried to tell Yoshi mains this but they all freaked out and got mad at me for "trying to dissprove something we already know is true", or something to that effect.

Part of the problem was caused by myself. I was under the impression (through Yoshi mains telling me back in 3.0) that his tail was intangible. Bbox also (sort of) backed this up because the tail hurtboxes disappeared. To test/show this, I made pictures of Peach's down air hitting his tail.

 

[G13_Flux]

I really cant think of any characters besides the other two space animals that have a more threatening neutral than wolf. between his amazing DD and mobility overall, coupled with an amazing projectile thats great for space control and forcing reactions, and having basically every one of his main approach options beat CCing, (nair, dair, grab) its hard to see how he isnt in the top 2. couple that with the fact that his punish game is disgusting. MK, Diddy, ROB, shiek.. none of them have a more threatening combination of neutral/punish than wolf imo.

when looking at MU spreads, there really aren't many characters that deal well with wolf, whereas compared to the other tops, they all have some relevant MUs which they perform a bit less well in (maybe barring diddy). Who beats wolf? The only two I can think of are ironically fox and falco. a number of characters deal with falco pretty well (kirby, peach, m2, DDD, marth, to name a couple) and theres also a number of characters that deal with other tops like shiek (peach, roy, spacies, DDD) and MK (roy, falco, a few others I feel but im not as sure). Same goes for ROB: pretty sure that all the spacies and diddy beat him, if even a bit more marginally.

so, if wolf had some relevant counters that made him a bit more questionable in certain situations than other tops, than I could see him bumping down a few pegs. But atm, I dont see any other characters besides fox or falco beating him. Im very open to the opinions of those who know some of these MUs way better than me, but until I can see how wolf doesnt have a better MU spread than the other tops then thats what Im sticking with.

 

[Soft Serve]

Who beats wolf?

depends on the wolf you ask

fox/falco/samus tend to vary from either worst MUs at 60-40 to slight wolf advantage depending on who you ask. The only other common characters some wolf mains think has a +1 vs wolf are Marth/mk, and even then its a more common opinion that its even or wolf wins

I'd post the WIP wolf discord MU chart but its still being discussed and the sheet is open edit

Sonic players are in agreement that sonic beats wolf, most of the wolf players think its even slight advantage wolf

 

[nimigoha]

So the Yoshi hurtbox thingy is actually that his Dtilt is negatively disjointed. I'm able to outright beat it with Marth's Dtilt with the right spacing.

Just a tiny bit of the tip. But when you're edgeguarding recoveries that are decently disjointed, it's not surprising that sometimes you'll get hit and they won't.

 

[CORY]

well, i mean, welcome to anyone trying to do that same thing with any hitbox that isn't a sword. the aerial hitbox would just go straight through the grounded hitbox and hit your hurtbox, regardless of negative disjoint.

 

[didds]

Man kirby's feet make it so easy for him

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah I know, I'm just saying that's the reason, not because the hurtbox extends a frame before.

 

[Soft Serve]

Heres yoshi's dtilt on its active frames. The first active frame is slightly negatively disjointed, then he pulls back as the tail swings back in the z axis, gaining a decent disjoint + interpolation.

So at spacings where the dtilt wouldn't have hit anyway, you can get hit out of it

tbh it doesn't seem like that huge of a deal. you only get hit out of your dtilt if you miss-spaced or timed it and it wouldn't have hit them anyway. Its basically complaining about getting whiffpunished. For edgeuarding, the number of recoveries with positive disjoints is so tiny I don't see it being that much of an issue with the move so much as it not being used properly

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Yo just saying MK at least goes even with Falco.

On the subject of Falco, I find it hilarious how public opinion of Falco has suddenly turned on its head.

 

[Deleted member]

ive thought falco as kind of overrated for some time now

i played lunchables MK last night, im about as depressed as like DMG

 

[Ripple]

I finally made someone give up mid grand finals by playing super lame.

I wore the tag +30 as my tag because of dmg saying my character should go up that many spots now

 

[Soft Serve]

I finally made someone give up mid grand finals by playing super lame.

I wore the tag +30 as my tag because of dmg saying my character should go up that many spots now

This is why DDD can't have nice things

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

ddd is like fat puff with marth grab that you can't kill until 200% who has a hammer and hella disjoint

if people don't like playing puff I don't think they would like playing ddd

 

[DMG]

ive thought falco as kind of overrated for some time now

i played lunchables MK last night, im about as depressed as like DMG

Right? MK is the future. It hurts!

Ripple YOU SHOW'EM! LET THEM FEEL THE WRATH OF OOZE!

 

[Deleted member]

Right? MK is the future. It hurts!

idk, i think it might be a MU thing - CF can match MKs speed and upthrow is really good, but you dont really have any outs to DD nair and falcons tech roll is awful, so where CF would normally dominate neutral but have volatile punish games for both players, CF can't really negotiate nair and you just kinda lose. for comparison, i play sheik and marth. sheik's MU for it is probably more complicated, since her punish game sucks outside of tech chasing on throws (which is honestly way weaker than just doing combos like normal), sheik cant really pin MK because her frame data is fast but her actual gameplay isn't, and MKs punish game on sheik is phenominal. maybe it's like sheik vs fox? where you lose to DD neutral and also lose on punish, but maybe theres some nuanced way to play around it somewhat that i don't know about. marth is simpler, its just the DD mirror where MKs DD is better, marth's upthrow is better than any of MKs punishes on the low end, but then marth can't really set up a kill so you just nickel and dime MK 10% at a time from like 70 to 150+ while he can kill you super easy at 60 if he ever gets to setup a ledge jump nair edge guard.

lunchables is telling me that i can tech chase MK with sheiks throws because his tech roll is really bad/short but if you go in frame advance a lot of MK's tech rolls look the same because he puts his feet above his head and then on the ground after whether he rolls or not, so you have to react to his moving during the roll and not the animation itself which cuts off a pretty fat chunk of the fuller animation. reacting to sheiks throws is the same way in that the first half of the animation makes it hard to react to, but if you want to go full cheese you can just always DI away from sheik and pray that she doesnt bthrow you and you'll be out from any of her other moves to some capacity to mitigate her punish game with no real reaction speed. if there's something like this for a substitute punish game on MK, i havent found it yet. i tried bthrow > dash attack > jab reset but that leaves a lot of play around the obvious SDI.

 

[Funbot28]

My thoughts on a current tier list:

Spoiler

I know, I am pretty detailed when it comes to these things. What are ur guys thoughts?

 

[Life]

I'm not really convinced Fox deserves his own tier.

 

[Player -0]

I feel bad for Puff and Kirby.

They're just

not there.

Edit - Also Bowser and peeps but no one cares about them.

 

[nimigoha]

Bowser's like one of the best characters to PMjank Melee players. He's pretty easy to play, takes 1 second to figure out ledgejump waveland for the sweet GALINT. Then I guess you can get good with perfect wavelands if you want to go the extra mile.

But sometimes it's as simple as CP Warioland, switch to Bowser. Obviously not saying this works against any Melee player, and certainly not against adaptive ones, but his defensive play with crouch armour is just so weird. You've also got KK Uthrow which they probably won't DI, Dthrow which they certainly won't meteor cancel...

Like I get that unfamiliar matchups tend to mess with Bowser, but there's a difference between CPing Bowser and CPing other characters. Especially if you put in like no time with them. The investment reward you get from CC>DSmashing a few times versus learning how to play Pit, for example, is vastly different.

It's like a little weird niche he has right now. Any familiarity and he starts to crumble, but at the moment he's sorta a Melee slayer.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i dont think fox gets his own tier either. fox is really good sure but stop there imo. lots of chars are super potent but also have very real limitations that other people underrate from lack of experience playing as them.

edit - theres a ton of real value to be gained from inexperience. sometimes when i play teams like i'll be doing fine as sheik but losing on the margin? and i'll just switch to ike and get like 3 kills at 40% and a huge momentum lead because no one knows whats going on. my ike isnt even that good and its still a legit play. i imagine bowser is a CP gold mine