Tier List Speculation

[_Chrome]

As far as my understanding goes, Link is so bad against Sheik because almost none of his normals can keep her out because they are too slow, his projectiles are very easily worked around by her insane speed (with the startup on his boomerang making it almost unusable against her) and his recovery is very easily snuffed by her too. He doesn't even have the kind of mobility that allows him to use stage positioning to win, because she can pretty much just bypass that too. Very intelligent bomb usage is one of the only things that makes this matchup manageable, and I cannot stress this enough.

 

[Keman]

I have to ask, when people here are talking about matchups and having a CP for the top tiers. Why don't people ever at least mention D3? I thought D3 was a top tier slayer?

(just going by what others have said, I wouldn't ever actually play him to find out. Maybe that right there is part of the reason people don't bring him up, since the faster you fall and less floaty they are the more fun they are to play generally in the smash community it seems)

Just generally curious as I never hear anyone in this thread ever bring him up it seems like.

 

[Deleted member]

While @Umbreon is around, curious why Sheik poops on Link so hard outside of needles. She can do the same tech chase / auto combo Ftilt -> Fair stuff on everybody else, so why is it so bad for Link?

Also, what should Lucas be doing vs Sheik? I've tried playing him like Fox & Falco do vs Sheik, but I've only noticed slight improvement by doing so. Any advice?

uhh basically link has the worst combo weight and recovery package in the game vs sheik, needles are better than links three projectiles combined, link cant meaningfully check her ground speed, ac fair and crouch make her impossible for link to grab so his best conversion is invalid, etc etc etc. tl;dr link has no way to stop sheik from doing sheik things and cant do much back. **** MU.

idk **** about lucas i just think hes gay and hate him.

 

[Ripple]

I have to ask, when people here are talking about matchups and having a CP for the top tiers. Why don't people ever at least mention D3? I thought D3 was a top tier slayer?
.

Probably because he can't be used like a typical CP character.

Knowing how to dash dance properly and space safe aerials on shield will basically be enough to allow you to CP with ganon, Toon link, or DK. But that **** is tossed out the window when it comes to DDD. The time you would need to spend too understand how DDD functions as a character would take so long that it would be infinitely better time invested in your real main or any other high tier "CP"

Basically if you take the time to learn how to play him, it'd be better to main him, and then find a secondaries for his bad MUs.

Although, this really only half answers why no one even mentiones him

 

[Deleted member]

i think ddd helps define a distinction between say a CP character like bowser or marth vs an anti-meta character like ddd or kirby. the reason you play something like ddd is to catch people pants down more than anything

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

is luigi an anti-meta character

is an anti-meta character just defined as a character unique enough that you can't translate basic skills from other chars to them

 

[Life]

Not to mention "slayer" is a bit of an exaggeration. D3's as much a space animal slayer as Marth is. (To be fair, most space animal players are probably much more familiar with Marth's capabilities than D3's.)

EDIT: Aw man, I was gonna do something cool and yet-ill-defined for my 5000th post, not just blab about a character I don't play.

 

[Deleted member]

no an anti meta character is something irregular that punishes standard play usually via jank. jigglypuff is the anti meta in melee or would be aside for fox

luigi just sucks

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

but aren't "jank" and "standard" just subjective goalposts that don't mean anything

isn't shine "jank"

is fox an anti-meta character

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Sounds exactly like Luigi to me, lol.

I didn't come here for a philosophy class, Magikarp.

But yeah, I love telling spacie players their main tool is jank.

 

[Player -0]

tfw they get told their Super Left Right Bros. is jank.


Intentionally dense.

 

[shairn]

but aren't "jank" and "standard" just subjective goalposts that don't mean anything

isn't shine "jank"

is fox an anti-meta character

No because Fox is the meta
Melee Ness isn't so thunder jacket is jank and so is infinite yoyo

 

[_Chrome]

I would've said thunder jacket is jank because it's a glitch, not because it isn't meta. I personally define jankiness as generally having traits (such as specific moves, gameplans or movement) that is off-putting or can lead to uninteractiveness or a large disparity between what is expected in a normal game.

I also think you'll see more complaints towards characters that are focused around moving in strange ways and/or are super focused around odd special moves. When I talk to Melee exclusive players, the jank characters generally brought up have those traits: such as Charizard, Squirtle, Luigi, Sonic, or Wario: characters that have unusual movement properties. Characters like Diddy and Zelda where the game can become focused entirely around tossing projectiles also receive flak from the "Melee F*gs". Bowser and Snake are also complained about for jankiness.

Not saying I hate all of the characters I listed (though I do have a distaste towards some, as everybody does). Each player will have their own ideas about jank: even in Melee a lot of the top tiers are still complained about (scratch that, all of them are to certain degrees lol). Man/woman up and play past the stupid attributes that every character has.

Hopefully I'll disappear again, lmao.

 

[Deleted member]

but aren't "jank" and "standard" just subjective goalposts that don't mean anything

isn't shine "jank"

is fox an anti-meta character

nah most people understand what you mean when you refer to jank. fundamentals play is shuffls dashdancing, taking stage, respecting opponent punish options etc. DDD punishes this type of play asymmetrically well.

 

[D e l t a]

I like the UD definition of jank:

"All purpose noun; jank or jahnk can literally mean anything, yet means nothing on its own. The meaning of jank is understood and defined by the context in which it is used."

Basically anything that is straightforward isn't considered jank: linear projectiles (lasers, fireballs, PKF), Fox/Falco-esque Nair, most smash attacks, etc.
Things considered jank would be awkward hitboxes or moves with atypical frame data: G&W the character, Lucas' dash grab, Yoshi's shield, PKT2 (especially Ness'), etc.

 

[Ripple]

D3's as much a space animal slayer as Marth is.

he's absolutely better than marth in this MU, DDD is probably the only character that actually beats Fox +1 on all stages but PS2, which marth can't claim

being essentially immune to lasers, being immune to up-throw > up air, having a CG until like 50%, a guaranteed kill off grab at 102% before throw, and a guaranteed edgeguard if you get a grab at the ledge.

There's actually so much going for DDD in this MU its crazy

 

[Boiko]

What options would you say D3 has to deal with Fox's rush down? Obviously he would need to play a spacing game, but we all know how good Fox is at circumventing that. Like. hypothetically, if Fox is putting on tight drill>shine>grab pressure and then just resetting neutral, does D3 just deal with it by jumping and not trying to contest him on the ground in the first place?

 

[nimigoha]

Being able to essentially "turn off" Fox's lasers seems like such a huge boon for a character. I assume you're talking about Waddles but maybe also staying airborne above lasers? Probably not. Also I think that lasering Waddles will still cycle moves out of the stale queue so that's still broken.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Even if fox beats characters in neutral 4/5 times, that doesn't automatically disqualify them from having a chance in the matchup. If fox has a hard time converting hard, and the other character doesn't, say the other character is taking a stock per neutral win and fox has to win neutral 5 times with meaningful conversions, then they're effectively coming out even. Even if DDD has a hard time dealing with fox's neutral, is fox getting enough out of his wins to compensate for getting grabbed once by DDD? And keep in mind, it doesn't necessarily have to be a raw grab. Most characters have some kind of set-up for grabs. I'm pretty sure DDD has waddle dash set-ups, random tech chase set-ups from aerials, jabs, others.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i agree that DDD does better than marth vs fox, although imo its because DDD vs fox is even ish and marth is -1.

 

[Strong Badam]

but aren't "jank" and "standard" just subjective goalposts that don't mean anything

If a lot of good players tend to agree about things like this and use those terms in a way that adds value to the conversation when had with each other, then referring to them as subjective becomes a waste of time and actively prevents you from learning from the conversation.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

so, TLS, what is up with this? is link not a bad character? is falco not a good character? is Blue godlike? Is Axe a buster? what's going on here?

I mean in all honesty I half expected Blue to win because that's what he usually does when he faces good melee spacies but still that doesn't mean it makes any more sense. Link is "supposed to" get smothered by falco and not be able to do much of anything but in actuality what happened is that link's disjoint and odd hitboxes (lol backwards-covering hit on dash attack) and his ablity to string together seemingly disparate hits and hitconfirm with stray boomerangs made it so that despite getting smothered and being forced to roll or techroll out blue was able to somehow convert the majority of his random stray hits either to stocks or to major damage. Plus he seemed to be better at reading or covering techrolls than axe was despite having seemingly more predictable habits himself

also is this the highest-level version of this matchup we've seen in 3.6?

 

[Life]

It's not a lack of matchup knowledge; the two have played before AFAIK. (Well, I guess you could make the argument that having played it doesn't mean the same thing as knowing it. I don't remember much from the set.)

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

It's not a lack of matchup knowledge; the two have played before AFAIK. (Well, I guess you could make the argument that having played it doesn't mean the same thing as knowing it. I don't remember much from the set.)

yeah that's what I was thinking and given that some of axe's yung link knowledge might help I honestly expected matchup inexperience to go in the opposite direction

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Blue is just really ****ing good.
Makes me want to pick link up, but then I remember that link isn't very good and won't help luigis bad mus at all.

 

[steelguttey]

i was ****in around with oli in training mode today and realized that his bair feels really similar to jiggs bair so i decided to compare the two. this is oli's flowered yellow bair, which has the best frame data and range

Spoiler: frame data

jigglypuff bair:
Total: 39
Hit: 9-12
IASA: 31
Auto cancel: 8, 25
Landlag: 20
Lcanceled: 10
Earliest Hit OoS: 14
oli bair:
Total: 34
Hit: 6-9
IASA: none
Auto cancel: 6
Landlag: 16
Lcanceled: 8
Earliest Hit OoS: 10

http://imgur.com/a/oHh09

Spoiler: kinda large picture

this is a comparison between each move's most horizontal reaching frame, frame 2 for jiggs and frame 3 for oli

now even though the longest hitbox of jigglypuff's bair comes out earlier than oli's, oli's frame 2 bair still outranges jigglypuff's.

 

[eideeiit]

Cool.

But there's a typo in your frame data, now it says Oli's bair ACs 3 frames after the animation ends.

 

[JesteRace]

so, TLS, what is up with this? is link not a bad character? is falco not a good character? is Blue godlike? Is Axe a buster? what's going on here?

I mean in all honesty I half expected Blue to win because that's what he usually does when he faces good melee spacies but still that doesn't mean it makes any more sense. Link is "supposed to" get smothered by falco and not be able to do much of anything but in actuality what happened is that link's disjoint and odd hitboxes (lol backwards-covering hit on dash attack) and his ablity to string together seemingly disparate hits and hitconfirm with stray boomerangs made it so that despite getting smothered and being forced to roll or techroll out blue was able to somehow convert the majority of his random stray hits either to stocks or to major damage. Plus he seemed to be better at reading or covering techrolls than axe was despite having seemingly more predictable habits himself

also is this the highest-level version of this matchup we've seen in 3.6?

This is a relatively bad character vs. a relatively good character in a well-balanced game. It's definitely a struggle of a matchup for Link, but as you can see, he clearly has the tools to overcome it and Blue's punishes and edgeguards on spacies are juicy. A Link beating a Falco at this level of play(and yes, I think this is the highest level version of this MU in 3.6 so far) in and of itself isn't that crazy, imo. Actually, the fact that a Link beat a Falco in a "PS2 for every game" set is what's kinda crazy for me. But meh, personal preference and comfort usually wins out.

Blue is just really ****ing good.
Makes me want to pick link up, but then I remember that link isn't very good and won't help luigis bad mus at all.

Haha I have/had the opposite problem. I was using Luigi to cover Link's bad matchups until I realized most of them are pretty bad for Luigi too lol

 

[Ripple]

What options would you say D3 has to deal with Fox's rush down? Obviously he would need to play a spacing game, but we all know how good Fox is at circumventing that. Like. hypothetically, if Fox is putting on tight drill>shine>grab pressure and then just resetting neutral, does D3 just deal with it by jumping and not trying to contest him on the ground in the first place?

DDD's answer to rush down is to never be put in that position in the first place. otherwise its just grab, which is extremely terrifying to fox because we can grab retreating aerials.

and to your second question; basically yes

resetting to neutral is probably the worst thing that fox could do. that just allows DDD to set up waddles on the ground or just get stage positioning while taking very negligible damage. once we're back to where we want to be we get to set up our landing mix ups on him most of which call out his dash dances.

 

[Life]

I'm surprised there hasn't been an influx of new tier lists now that the Tier List Maker web app got an update.

 

[Bazkip]

I'm surprised there hasn't been an influx of new tier lists now that the Tier List Maker web app got an update.

I'm not completely certain, but I've got a faint idea

 

[steelguttey]

it worked for me so

ordered cus i aint no *****

 

[Bazkip]

Oh they put it into one page, I didn't see the change game button lmao

my_b.jpg

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

I think DK is better than Kirby, Zelda, DDD, and Pit, and should be in B tier, but other than that, solid list

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

this tierlist is kinda booty lmao (but we kind of knew that, this is the old "official PM tierlist"

some minor issues (or things that I think might be issues)
1. rob ahead of mk lmao
2. wolf not second/first
3. zss/lucas not higher
4. mewtwo behind falco/lucario??
5. luigi in c-tier? (but he's bad yadda yadda)
6. ness is overrated
7. puff/yoshi/ddd/dk should all be in front of charizard/pit at least
8. lol olimar is like c-tier

the "official" pm tierlist is like questionable at best, the most problematic thing being how low wolf is

it's beginning to crystallize as most people think it would, with more certainty at the beginning and then a little towards the end with everything in between being very confusing and unsure

also the fact that almost every character except maybe bowser and kirby (but then they're not too far off) have at least a few relatively strong and usable strength means that each character still has tools they can use in the game that are very rarely even close to invalidated by another character, ie, there's still a point to playing midtiers if they fit your style better because each one can still function in the current game

the more I think about it the more I think that bowser should have his own tier

kirby seems to be an amalgamation of mediocre tools while bowser has some really silly tools but also some really silly drawbacks that prevent him from even getting to use his tools more often than not

 

[Life]

Questioning Wolf as a top 3 character is perfectly understandable if you're the type of player who keeps an eye on tournament results and base your tier lists on that. Wolf players have been doing so little outside locals LOL

For that matter it's been a while since we've seen Fox do incredibly well at a large tournament, hasn't it?

 

[JesteRace]

M2k at Paragon was the most recent iirc.

 

[D e l t a]

this tierlist is kinda booty lmao (but we kind of knew that, this is the old "official PM tierlist"

some minor issues (or things that I think might be issues)
1. rob ahead of mk lmao - MK is good but I feel he's completely overrated. He's like a slightly more mobile Roy with better recovery and less powerful kill options.
2. wolf not second/first - Why do you think he should be much higher. I honestly think every character up thru GnW is better due to kill potential & neutral game.
3. zss/lucas not higher - I can get behind this. I think ZSS is just below Wario & Lucario is the most overrated on this list second to MK. IMO Lucas is the best A tier character. However, I don't think he will surpass any of the "exceptional characters" save for Lucario and maybe Wario.
6. ness is overrated - Overrated, yet highly underestimated
7. puff/yoshi/ddd/dk should all be in front of charizard/pit at least - Why does everyone think Pit is that bad of a character? Is it due to the lack of representation or that his smash attacks are terrible?
8. lol olimar is like c-tier - lolimar

 

[DrinkingFood]

2. wolf not second/first - Why do you think he should be much higher. I honestly think every character up thru GnW is better due to kill potential & neutral game.

how does wolf lack kill potential OR a neutral game
And when I say lack, I really mean having anything short of a tippy-top tier neutral and versatile kill ability.

Dunno how anyone thinks he has neutral problems. No, he doesn't beat everything with high-priority moves like the other spacies. That's totally fine fine when you have his laser, speed, SH distance/aerial movement, and standing reach.

And kill power? Fair sweetspot, bair sweetspot, dsmash, fsmash, side-b, upsmash (with excellent DACUS) all have utility in different situations. No, they don't all kill early and/or aren't all extremely reliable to land raw. Most kill moves aren't really. But he's got more than a healthy mix and plenty of ways to set-up for them. Side-b, bair, and fair are especially easy to set-up for, dsmash is a great CC option and quick enough to fish for kills on run-ins, fsmash and DACUS don't even need run-ins since they have so much reach. He's not amazing on gimps but due to his movement speed he can still manage usable edgeguards, especially once you consider he can also go much deeper offstage than any of the other spacies. He can go about as deep as falcon can. He's got blaster to help force lower/more managable recovery paths, he can use nair to drag people down, ledgehop bair can cover options since he can regrab afterwards, dsmash hits below ledge, his repeated wall jumps are great since he drifts so well so staying out offstage/saving yourself after flubbed edgeguards is easier thanks to that mix-up option. Also, up-b jank lmao

 

[DMG]

Spoiler

1st tier is ordered, 2nd tier and most beyond are not. It's pretty huge I admit, but I feel like there's ~20 chars above the rest to some degree and splitting that into 2-3 tiers seems less accurate. Maybe A+, A, A- distinctions would be more accurate? Too late DON'T CARE they are all great. 2nd tier are not all totally equal with each other: if a split were to be made I'd separate M2 from TL and call TL to Pika A- or something.

Rating people past the Alrights tier is more loose grouping than strict order as well. It's only past Yoshi that you rarely see any tourney success with a char (Jiggs is the outlier I guess but she's incredibly difficult to assess in PM). Under Yoshi, D3 probably has the most success but he's also kinda legit bad so it's difficult to say.