Tier List Speculation

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wut
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What are ur guys thoughts?
what these guys said, primarily.
I'm not really convinced Fox deserves his own tier.
yeah i dont think fox gets his own tier either. fox is really good sure but stop there imo. lots of chars are super potent but also have very real limitations that other people underrate from lack of experience playing as them.
fox can easily be top of the top tier, but he doesn't need to be in his own. he's not that much better than the characters below him.

i feel like diddy, rob, falco, and lucario (maybe shiek?) could all swap around tier placings well enough.

everyone else looks alright. maybe sonic and zss a bit higher, but that's just feels.
 

NOTMalachi

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idk, i think it might be a MU thing - CF can match MKs speed and upthrow is really good, but you dont really have any outs to DD nair and falcons tech roll is awful, so where CF would normally dominate neutral but have volatile punish games for both players, CF can't really negotiate nair and you just kinda lose. for comparison, i play sheik and marth. sheik's MU for it is probably more complicated, since her punish game sucks outside of tech chasing on throws (which is honestly way weaker than just doing combos like normal), sheik cant really pin MK because her frame data is fast but her actual gameplay isn't, and MKs punish game on sheik is phenominal. maybe it's like sheik vs fox? where you lose to DD neutral and also lose on punish, but maybe theres some nuanced way to play around it somewhat that i don't know about. marth is simpler, its just the DD mirror where MKs DD is better, marth's upthrow is better than any of MKs punishes on the low end, but then marth can't really set up a kill so you just nickel and dime MK 10% at a time from like 70 to 150+ while he can kill you super easy at 60 if he ever gets to setup a ledge jump nair edge guard.

lunchables is telling me that i can tech chase MK with sheiks throws because his tech roll is really bad/short but if you go in frame advance a lot of MK's tech rolls look the same because he puts his feet above his head and then on the ground after whether he rolls or not, so you have to react to his moving during the roll and not the animation itself which cuts off a pretty fat chunk of the fuller animation. reacting to sheiks throws is the same way in that the first half of the animation makes it hard to react to, but if you want to go full cheese you can just always DI away from sheik and pray that she doesnt bthrow you and you'll be out from any of her other moves to some capacity to mitigate her punish game with no real reaction speed. if there's something like this for a substitute punish game on MK, i havent found it yet. i tried bthrow > dash attack > jab reset but that leaves a lot of play around the obvious SDI.
Dude you're craazy.
I reaction tech chase MKs all the time. He's probably one of the easier characters to tech chase in the game, so much so that I normally throw MK BACK to the stage to keep the techchase going . MK should honestly die after sheik grabs him once since backthrow dacus kill him in the high 80(?)
Idk what else to say. Work on your tech chasing.
 

G13_Flux

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very real question to anybody who actually has a good idea. Who does bowser actually beat? if hes a good CP character, then he must have some value MU wise. Or are we talking CP as in relying on people inexperience with him, which would really nullify his value as time goes on, especially at upper level play.
 
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very real question to anybody who actually has a good idea. Who does bowser actually beat? if hes a good CP character, then he must have some value MU wise. Or are we talking CP as in relying on people inexperience with him, which would really nullify his value as time goes on, especially at upper level play.
That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying.

I don't think he has a winning matchup on anyone. But as a PM character he has the tools to wreck face if he catches someone off guard. If the opponent can stay out of his threat range (which is pretty small and slow) and bait out one of his laggy attacks, they get some very free %.

But a miscalculation on their part or an opportunity seized by Bowser can hurt quite a bit.
 

permafros7

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Is Lucario still solo mainable? I have a strong feeling that he loses a lot of matchups, and sometimes that some characters are better versions of him. I already have Wolf as a secondary.
 

Life

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P permafros7 having read your posts on discord, your character is not holding you back, you are

I don't think there's another version of a character that can cancel moves on hit.
I don't think that's what permafrost meant. Technical characters with a hypothetically powerful punish game that have trouble aggressing the opponent directly (the way a laserless Fox would go about it--by being fast enough to approach with a reliable tool like shffl nair and then being able to continue with the pressure even if the initial nair doesn't do much) and thus rely on alternative ways of getting hits--how much of the cast does that describe? That describes Lucario, but it also describes Dedede, for a loose definition of "technical" anyway. Peach, too. Those characters are all incredibly different from each other, yet they all have certain commonalities.
 

G13_Flux

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There's something of a case for him doing well versus Roy I guess. Been a while since we went over that.
bowser doesnt beat roy. Ive played the MU in and out like a thousand times. they both have devastating punish games on each other, but roy wins neutral hands down. bowser doesnt have the speed nor frame data, despite a decent ability to CC. everything he has is too punishable, and he has nothing to trump dtilt or roys grab range. edge guarding bowser is also super EZ mode with roy. its not the worst MU for bowser, and i think on some stages it can actually approach even, but thats about it.

ive heard that bowser beats kriby. but I dont know why.
 

Umbreon

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Dude you're craazy.
I reaction tech chase MKs all the time. He's probably one of the easier characters to tech chase in the game, so much so that I normally throw MK BACK to the stage to keep the techchase going . MK should honestly die after sheik grabs him once since backthrow dacus kill him in the high 80(?)
Idk what else to say. Work on your tech chasing.
show me how its done? would like to learn.
 

Avro-Arrow

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Soft Serve Soft Serve Chrome knows that :p

Also I don't think he was being serious about Lucario not having "better versions of him." Everyone knows he actually doesn't have the best punishes in the game.

Umbreon Umbreon MK is really really easy to cheese for Sheik outside of getting tilts/dash attack into an aerial kill or dacus from bthrow. Needle gimps are super strong especially if you can hit him out of a recovery option. He loses all of his jumps and none of his remaining recovery options get any significant vertical height. That's my experience with the MU; it's just not an easy time. Harder than spacies in my opinion.

Honestly with MK you can tell after like five games whether or not your character loses the MU. His nair single-handed beats CF, and he out DDs Sheik and Marth (Sheik has to tech chase and cheese, Marth has to juggle and tech chase).

I also think people who say MK is overrated haven't played against him at all, or don't know what they're talking about. Seriously. Just because he isn't jank/has a lot of 65-35+ MUs doesn't mean he doesn't go even or slightly best most. Loses to like Roy, Samus, and slightly to Fox, and that's it as of right now (actually maybe ZSS slightly).
 

Strong Badam

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Is Lucario still solo mainable? I have a strong feeling that he loses a lot of matchups, and sometimes that some characters are better versions of him. I already have Wolf as a secondary.
if Lucario's not solo-mainable then people have too high standards for what determines which characters are solo-mainable lmao.
Dude you're craazy.
I reaction tech chase MKs all the time. He's probably one of the easier characters to tech chase in the game, so much so that I normally throw MK BACK to the stage to keep the techchase going . MK should honestly die after sheik grabs him once since backthrow dacus kill him in the high 80(?)
Idk what else to say. Work on your tech chasing.
Idk dude, maybe there's this thing called reaction time and everyone's is slightly different (better/worse). Everyone tells me that MK's tech-chases are super good too, they're super free etc. I practiced them for weeks on end and never got any better at them, even characters with particularly bad tech-rolls like Falcon, I would drop the techchase. It was so frustrating that, among a good few other reasons, I don't really play the character at all anymore. I strongly prefer launcher throws, personally, even if they have a smaller range of use.
 
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JesteRace

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Imo a character is only non-soloable if they have like, at least 1 unwinnable matchup, or like, 5+ really bad matchups. And how popular those matchups are is also a factor. In PM, though, almost no one fits that criteria.
 
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shairn

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I think the only MU Bowser wins is ICs. Might beat Kirby too, but I'm not sure, and don't have much experience in the matchup.

But yeah, it makes no sense to call him a CP character. He's more of a YOLO character.
 
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JesteRace

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Tbh I've seen plumbers and swordies as matchups that require a significant skill difference in the Lucario's favor in order to win.
Luigi/Marth are pretty damn tough for Lucario, that's fair. They're not unwinnable, though. Not sure on Mario/Roy/Ike, but I don't think they're as hard as Luigi/Marth.
 

G13_Flux

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Ive heard that roy does better against lucario. roys potent CC is far superior at limiting lucarios safe options (as opposed to marths speed), and getting good conversions is very neccesary since lucarios conversions are generally pretty good.
 
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shairn shairn I would contest your position on the Icies matchup, and I think many other Icies mains would agree. For starters, Icies can really just shield all of his attacks because none of his throws are very good at splitting them up and he'll generally eat a smash attack for his trouble. It's difficult for Bowser to keep up with them in neutral, avoid their burst ground movement, or find his way around their attacks, and all of their chaingrabs are pretty much impossible from him to get out of since he's so huge. Because of this, he gets grabbed and corner-carried very very easily. When he gets grabbed in the corner (or on a platform) he's dead guaranteed regardless of the percentage because handoffs are an inescapable infinite on him and a few other fatties and the Icies player can basically just hand Bowser off until 200% and then up-smash for a KO if they so choose. Sopo even has a decent chaingrab on him. So pretty much every grab is certain death, and it's very not hard to grab him. Maybe down-smash separates them, but an option so committal would likely be very easy to bait out and punish for a character with as good a wavedash as Icies, even with the armor. To boot, since all of Bowser's attacks are fairly committal to begin with, spending any time devoting attention to Nana leaves him almost wide open for Popo to grab him or begin an uair juggle (which I'd imagine Bowser has a tough time getting down from). I personally think it's one of the worst MUs in the game. That's just my two cents though.
 
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To my knowledge, those MUs haven't changed too much from Melee, especially Falcon. I'm no expert in these two, but I'll do my best. I welcome more knowledgeable Icies player to correct me/add on. For Ganon: dair is godlike, Nana dies in a few hits. Platforms are beneficial. Don't let them grab you with their stubby arms though or you'll get messed up. Come to think of it, I don't know exactly how blizzard affects this matchup, but I'm guessing the buffs give Icies an edge they didn't have in Melee. Ganon can't mindlessly fair and outrange them now. For Falcon: just knee them and run around, really. Knee is incredibly safe against them and destroys Nana. You're super fast, don't let them get a wall set up. Also don't be predictable with your jumps or nair approaches or they'll convert into a grab off a read. And if you get grabbed it'll be tricky to get out, but not impossible. Both Ganon and Falcon get edge-guarded to hell and back by Icies, but they get edge-guarded pretty bad by a lot of characters (especially in PM), so make of it what you will. Personally, I don't think Icies lose any matchups by a huge margin in PM except for Peach and TL, and I also believe they don't lose as many matchups as people think.
 
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shairn

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shairn shairn I would contest your position on the Icies matchup, and I think many other Icies mains would agree. For starters, Icies can really just shield all of his attacks because none of his throws are very good at splitting them up and he'll generally eat a smash attack for his trouble. It's difficult for Bowser to keep up with them in neutral, avoid their burst ground movement, or find his way around their attacks, and all of their chaingrabs are pretty much impossible from him to get out of since he's so huge. Because of this, he gets grabbed and corner-carried very very easily. When he gets grabbed in the corner (or on a platform) he's dead guaranteed regardless of the percentage because handoffs are an inescapable infinite on him and a few other fatties and the Icies player can basically just hand Bowser off until 200% and then up-smash for a KO if they so choose. Sopo even has a decent chaingrab on him. So pretty much every grab is certain death, and it's very not hard to grab him. Maybe down-smash separates them, but an option so committal would likely be very easy to bait out and punish for a character with as good a wavedash as Icies, even with the armor. To boot, since all of Bowser's attacks are fairly committal to begin with, spending any time devoting attention to Nana leaves him almost wide open for Popo to grab him or begin an uair juggle (which I'd imagine Bowser has a tough time getting down from). I personally think it's one of the worst MUs in the game. That's just my two cents though.
KK bthrow is super easy to land on ICs and separates them instantly. It's Bowser's quickest throw and quite hard to react to. ICs do not have very good options to approach vs Bowser when he's crouching, since he can eat up blizzard and ice blocks, the latter of which can also just be power shielded very easily to aid in approaching. Dsmash is great for separating them, of course, but obviously you don't want to throw it out in neutral. Plus, flame breath locks them down since they can't go up over the flames to go after Bowser.

ICs can't really keep Bowser in the air with juggles for long due to the threat of nair just going through all of their moves. Bowser can also 0-death ICs once they're separated, for example 2-3 fairs will kill Nana guaranteed, unless popo dives in to save her with up B, but then it's an easy edgeguard. You can also do the same to popo, simply throw him away from nana and fair him to death.

I don't think Bowser dominates the matchup, but I think he has a non-negligible edge.
 
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All good points. That makes sense to me. Questions: why can they not go over flame breath with, say, ice blocks or dair or aerial side-b or something similar? Does KK bthrow not have enough endlag that the Climber that wasn't grabbed couldn't simply CC grab or CC dsmash? Also, why would Icies need to approach Bowser if he's simply crouching and eating all this damage? Even if he tries to CC a blizzard into something, the other Climber is definitely not going to be synced and it will be difficult for Bowser to punish the blizzard without being punished for his punish. In this scenario I'm assuming he doesn't have a stock lead.
 
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shairn

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Blizzard and ice block have significant lag, so Bowser can crawl through them to force a dsmash a lot of the time. ICs have pretty bad options in the air aside from blizzard/ice block, and Bowser can angle his flame to follow them, or drop it to take advantage of their poor aerial mobility and his own good hitboxes. It's not impossible to get through by any means from the ICs of course, but I think it forces them into a disadvantageous position.

KK bthrow isn't very laggy, but I think the other climber can react, although this is assuming they're still synced(I think if you bthrow popo the player can't control Nana, but I'm not 100% certain because my ICs knowledge is limited). Usually they'll be stuck in shield when you use kk so their options are pretty much limited to shieldgrab or wavedash OOS to grab/dsmash.
 

NOTMalachi

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show me how its done? would like to learn.
Uhhh, I don't have any post 3.6 beta footage of my sheik vs MK (**** 3.6beta) so I can't really give a visual example.
However, something that really stuck out to me in your post was when you mentioned metaknights feet being in a similar position for all his animations. Idk about melee players, but I never look at what the opponent is doing during their tech animation;there are simply too many characters to memorize how 'x' characters feet look when they tech away. I'm more focused on whether they're stationary(Tech in place/no tech) or if they're moving(Tech in/Tech away). Okay for example, I downthrow MK at 20 and he DIs away. I'll wavedash foward to be directly in front of MK making it so I can boost grab in either direction if he decides to tech away. After the wd, put all my focus on tech in place since its the fastest/hardest option to cover and the most common way people get out of tech chases. If I see he didn't tech in place, then I boost grab in whichever direction he's moving in and repeat this process until they die or I mess up

This probably wasn't incredibly helpful, but maybe it will give you or someone else some incite on how another person 'thinks' while tech chasing. Like the best advice I can give is to keep working at it until you get it. I've been spot dodged down-tilted like 2000+ times but I didn't stop going for it just because I missed and got punished for it sometimes


Idk dude, maybe there's this thing called reaction time and everyone's is slightly different (better/worse). Everyone tells me that MK's tech-chases are super good too, they're super free etc. I practiced them for weeks on end and never got any better at them, even characters with particularly bad tech-rolls like Falcon, I would drop the techchase. It was so frustrating that, among a good few other reasons, I don't really play the character at all anymore. I strongly prefer launcher throws, personally, even if they have a smaller range of use.
Omg its strong bad im such a big fan
You're right, people naturally have different reaction times that make it easier/harder for them to tech chase, but I believe most people who are at a decent level of play can get rudimentary level of tech chasing down with good structure and practice. I personally think it's pretty silly to pass off your poor tech chasing ability with having 'slow' reaction time seeing how a person that's really good at tech chasing might have put 10x more hours into it than you have. Like I don't know you personally, maybe your reaction time is actually horrendous and you can't possibly tech chase no matter how much time you put it. Orrr maybe your mindset/set up might not have been optimal...maybe if you put alittle more time aside to practice every day...maybe if you looked up a few more guides or tutorials on how to tech chase...Or maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about and you're completely right. Idk, I'm just the type of person that believes you can achieve something if you work hard enough at it.
But I'm rambling at this point and this is already way longer than I anticipated. Hope this maybe helps someone out somehow.
 

Umbreon

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Ripple Ripple or @DrinkingFood - can either of you figure out the chain jacket by the frame data? i tried to do it in frame advance but wasnt able to get it to any reliable capacity

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NOTMalachi NOTMalachi - what i do usually is go for whichever throw is better since sheiks throws have slightly different release points that are favorable over the other, the short version being to bthrow fox falco wolf falcon roy mk lucas diddy zss, but otherwise to dthrow everyone else (this is assuming that i ignore throwing for position instead), i wavedash to where the opponent lands, and then either tech chase or jab jab and then tech chase, the first jab being for the reset, the second to disrupt SDI. this generally brutally murders the entire cast except the pseudo fastfallers (mk roy diddy lucas specifically) because if the opponent does no DI on the throw it usually sends them too far for WD to cover tech in place without giving the opponent access to ASDI > disrespect option. so for a basic example, i grab roy at 30, ignore throwing for position, and bthrow. on no DI, the throw to a combo is no good, but the distance roy goes is still too far for sheiks WD, so tech in place > dtilt becomes very hard to reactively challenge. if the opponent is ******** and DIs bad or always tech rolls then sure sheik eats them, but this has not been my common experience vs those characters at higher level play.
 
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GengarKid

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New to the site(I am on reddit alot though) and i plan on going to my first tournament this week. Came in here to see if i could learn anything. Its weird to see people saying bowser is bad. Hes easily a top ten character in my eyes. His foward a is uber strong. can anyone tell me why he is so bad? Lolz
 

Umbreon

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New to the site(I am on reddit alot though) and i plan on going to my first tournament this week. Came in here to see if i could learn anything. Its weird to see people saying bowser is bad. Hes easily a top ten character in my eyes. His foward a is uber strong. can anyone tell me why he is so bad? Lolz
mostly because people evaluate good and bad differently. bowser is a monster in some MUs but most people associate good with "every matchup"
 
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GengarKid GengarKid I did a write-up on this mess for new members a while back. But basically, you're not wrong about the strength of his attacks.

I said:
However, tier placement is a lot more complicated than than how many buffs or nerfs each character got, or how 'good' a character feels on their own. Smash is basically a game of interactions—players and characters interacting with each other and selecting options to try and beat each other out. Hundreds or thousands of interactions can happen across the course of one game. Any of a character's traits or attributes (weight, fall speed, frame data, recovery distance, traction, shield size, jumpsquat, etc.) can make interactions easier/more advantageous or harder/less advantageous depending on the character they're fighting.

In any given matchup, the character who has the easiest/most advantageous interactions wins the matchup. If they have really really easy/advantageous interactions, they win the matchup by a lot. If they both have equally easy interactions or it's advantageous for neither of them, the matchup is even. This also applies to the tier list. Basically, the character who has the easiest/most advantageous interactions the most often out of anybody in the entire roster is the best character.
People agree that Bowser is pretty bad because even though he does have his good attributes, his bad ones (size, sluggishness, laggy attacks, etc.) put him at a disadvantage in a lot of interactions. Don't let that discourage you from playing the character, though! Figure out for yourself what's best for you to work with.
 
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NOTMalachi

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Ripple Ripple or @DrinkingFood - can either of you figure out the chain jacket by the frame data? i tried to do it in frame advance but wasnt able to get it to any reliable capacity

edit -

NOTMalachi NOTMalachi - what i do usually is go for whichever throw is better since sheiks throws have slightly different release points that are favorable over the other, the short version being to bthrow fox falco wolf falcon roy mk lucas diddy zss, but otherwise to dthrow everyone else (this is assuming that i ignore throwing for position instead), i wavedash to where the opponent lands, and then either tech chase or jab jab and then tech chase, the first jab being for the reset, the second to disrupt SDI. this generally brutally murders the entire cast except the pseudo fastfallers (mk roy diddy lucas specifically) because if the opponent does no DI on the throw it usually sends them too far for WD to cover tech in place without giving the opponent access to ASDI > disrespect option. so for a basic example, i grab roy at 30, ignore throwing for position, and bthrow. on no DI, the throw to a combo is no good, but the distance roy goes is still too far for sheiks WD, so tech in place > dtilt becomes very hard to reactively challenge. if the opponent is ******** and DIs bad or always tech rolls then sure sheik eats them, but this has not been my common experience vs those characters at higher level play.
Hmm. Why do you do backthrow on those specific characters? I generally use downthrow on everyone because it doesn't send them as far and as an old 3.6b habit. Even at higher percents, I never have a probelm with wavedashing to any of those characters as long as I start a run beforehand, even on full DI away. The whole No DI thing confused me as well. Couldn't you get dash attack(Or at the very least boost grab regrab) on a lot of semi fast fallers After like ~30 percent or so?

Do you have like...a video example of this 'cause I'm not sure we're on the same page.
 

permafros7

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Luigi/Marth are pretty damn tough for Lucario, that's fair. They're not unwinnable, though. Not sure on Mario/Roy/Ike, but I don't think they're as hard as Luigi/Marth.
Roy ftilt can be a pain in the rear as well given how low-commitment it is. Also, I always play Lucario with the assumption that I will win neutral no more than four times, so I kind of need that touch to death combo or I'm ****ed. I am leaning on playing Wolf in situations where I may need to win neutral more than four times to win, which means Wolf could become a dual main for me.
 

GengarKid

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Alright thanks guys. I might start maining bowser just to see if he's actually bad. Might just stick to my main mk. I wanna make mk a top tier in people's eyes and not a low tier
 

Juushichi

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Man, I want to hang with Umbreon Umbreon and NOTMalachi NOTMalachi for like a week and grind out more Sheik.

Max, are you going to Smash and Splash or Neb (or w/e) in NY in April?

Malachi, if you're going, let's play some. But onto actual post related things.

Malachi, what are your thoughts on Peach vs Sheik in 3.6? Hanky is still absolutely destroying us (Me, Fizzle, Drephen, etc) in it. I keep hovering between 6-4 Peach and 55-45 Peach. I can beat the other ones around here because I play Tyler so much, but it's so ****ing hard.

I almost think Fox is an easier MU by now.
 
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