Tier List Speculation

[Frost | Odds]

Even if Bowser has a niche as a "small stage plus X" counterpick, couldn't you just use Ganondorf instead?

Yes.

Is there a character that stands a better chance vs. Ganon on WW than Bowser on YS (assuming both are legal)?

No.

 

[DMG]

Spacies might fare better against Ganon on small stages than vs Bowser on small stages. Just a gut feeling, Odds spare me if I'm wrong

 

[GengarKid]

And which matches is fox in the 45 end of?

Id say Marth mk Falco peach. I'm positive about these characters winning around 5545.

 

[nimigoha]

Id say Marth mk Falco peach. I'm positive about these characters winning around 5545.

Jesus dude two pages ago you said MK was bad (slow, bad disjoint, small), now you say he has a winning MU against Fox? I know these two things can both be true at the same time, but still... pretty much no one has any reason to take what you're saying seriously, not after you say MK is bad.

Also it's interesting that you say you're positive that these characters win 55-45. Where's that opinion coming from? Sets you've seen, pure paper-theory, or a mixture? I personally think that discussion about Marth/Falco/Peach and solidifying matchup numbers isn't farfetched, since those matchups are nearly the same as in Melee. But how many top-level MK-Fox matches have we seen in 3.6?

There's no harm in postulating who wins and discussing it, but claiming you're "positive" that a character beats Fox (almost universally agreed on as the best character) at this moment in time is really bold.

 

[GengarKid]

Lolz not tryin to start a fight but why should I take you seriously? What are your accomplishments

 

[GengarKid]

I think I'm gonna stay off of this for a while since people keep getting mad at me. Lolz

 

[Ripple]

I think I'm gonna stay off of this for a while since people keep getting mad at me. Lolz

you have an uneducated and terrible opinion with nothing to back it up and you got called out for it by people who have been around longer than you.

If you think people aren't going to correct you or ask you to explain yourself, you're clearly in the wrong place to post your thoughts.

 

[Ningildo]

Lolz not tryin to start a fight but why should I take you seriously? What are your accomplishments

Smells too much like irony, tbh.

Also, refuting points with logic is always better than trying to start an ad hominem war.

Also,

Id say Marth mk Falco peach. I'm positive about these characters winning around 5545.

Why? Don't go all "Melee was evenish and now Fox is nerfed, so they definitely win now". What traits changed for Fox drastically that make the MU go into the others favor? Did the other characters buffs/changes influence the MU, and, if so, why?

I don't expect you to know all the little things that make an MU how it is. But going off on that, I can't really expect you to say something useful in regards to the MU, especially if you don't back up your claims with reasoning and logic. Most people here probably don't know everything about every MU or all possible applications of a character's tools, but try to reason as to why tool X or character Y or MU Z is good, bad, eh, even and everything in between. It's probably a good idea to do so as well.

Or be a part time meme/one liner poster like DMG .

 

[DMG]

Memes are gross, I am super serious.

Check out my SoundCloud, I made a hot mixtape using the sounds of Ripple's Opponents unplugging their controller as a sick beat (There you go, is that what you expect from me Ningildo ?!?!?)

MK wins everything but only if ur really good. Most MK's are not. Someone should fix this

 

[GengarKid]

Gonna be a memer from now on. Sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

is there an age limit for this thread

 

[DMG]

"You must be this cool to be on Smashboards"

Edit: No don't be a Memer! That's for lame people. Just be honest and cool. Explain anything you think about, the best you can.

 

[eideeiit]

Trying to put to words something that you do on intuition, like playing a game, is so tough but also so rewarding, at least to me.

 

[Deleted member]

real talk i could see fox losing to rob

 

[DMG]

This Robot is trained to ruin your fun

 

[redbeanjelly]

So it sounds like the general consensus is that only further down the road will some of Fox's even matchups turned to bad ones. And that right now only DDD has the distinction of having a positive matchup against him.

How many of these incubating matchups are there? ROB maybe, MK it seems. How about Samus? Are crawl attack and zair enough new toys, and are the Fox nerfs drastic enough to possibly make it turn to her favor eventually?

 

[didds]

I can also see him losing to peach since changes to fox actually did affect key points to the mu. Peach still wins the close game and reduced laser and usmash power make the peach's forced approach much less frantic and dangerous.

Risk reward and general trades have always been heavily in peach's favor for the mu even in melee, but lasers can change the entire dynamic of the match, now peach needs to somehow approach fox while managing the damage she receives in the process. Too patient and you get abused by lasers. Too aggressive and now you've got too many exploitable openings. Peach is really just a cluster of ambiguity and as soon as it's forced out of her via punishing her for maintaining it, that's when her other holes can be exploited (mobility, floatiness, wearing a dress).

Basically I could believe that the balance has shifted in peaches favor at this point and her rewards off of getting her close exchanges now benefit her more than what fox can force with his laser game.

I haven't taken into account how stage lists would affect things though and haven't seen much of strong peaches in pm. Heck I could even believe the mu would be at worst 50 50 in melee if fox didn't have lasers. Even in pm with diminished strength, there's still a case that can be made for fox winning the mu. Really goes to show how strong of a tool lasers are when paired with fox's mobility and his tools to convert openings into strong punishes.

Edit: it's prolly worth mentioning that the mu is still more simple for fox and just about always will be. Shoot intercept or shoot keep shooting, pretty easy to remember.

Should difficulty in playing a mu be considered when ranking characters too? For example, let's say yoshi beats fox (hypothetical don't think I actually think this), but his game plan involves a lot more mixup and smart decision making to achieve the winning ratio. On the other hand fox still shoots and intercepts or shoots and shoots more. Would we still give fox more leeway on his placement because of his simplicity? Or does that fall under "top level play does not have this issue so it's irrelevant anyway"?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I still think that fox:zss is 50:50 despite what protestations zss mains have
sure fox will kill you if he gets you off the stage but fox also dies if he gets off the stage against zss
zss mobility and ability to be ambiguous while avoiding lasers as well as her ability to stuff/antiair fox's approaches means that she actually can play the neutral game against fox

like yeah I understand that your typical zss combos don't work against spacies, that's ok, just nickle and dime them with dair chains and footstools (because fox goes to perfect footstool height after a dair until like 75%), push them back in neutral, and then win the laser war with the big daddy stun blaster

 

[Bazkip]

brawl physics things letting him autocancel bair out of shorthop

He had that in Melee

 

[CORY]

He had that in Melee

Really? I remember someone (probably spidermad, that stuff's his fetish) saying that it was a PM only thing.

Maybe I'm thinking of fox?

 

[Player -0]

You're thinking of Fox.

 

[DMG]

Falco can auto-cancel Bair from SH in Melee 100% confirmed

Edit: notifications lied, no one else posted in here after this post. DOUBLE POST OP PLZ NERF

fox zss

She doesn't win laser war, not in recent times anyways. When she could quickly dash out of Stun Blaster (Neutral B, dunno what all her **** is called), could maybe argue that was a patch she could more reliably compete in that aspect. Shooting it does not effectively or entirely deter a character like Fox: idk how many different good responses you could pull to that on average in neutral.

You can't do everything as ZSS to deal with Fox neutral. You can be hard to hit, try to be defensively or positionally solid, etc but you can't effortlessly glide from some OP stun blaster pressure into safe approach into perfect CC Utilt to respond to his Nair. ZSS players might crumple too easily to Fox: she's a good char that probably doesn't get GG'd out of the universe, but she definitely has work cut out in some areas to win.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

that's why i think it's 50:50 and not 928729847562:0
it's not easy for either party but I think it falls under the category of both having a bit of trouble with the other and zss mains often complain about it because of how different of a mu it is than any other zss mu
also dashback breverse side b is like pretty ok at dealing with random fox approaches in neutral

idk maybe I'm grasping at straws but I just don't feel like it has reason to be "bad" for zss but what do I know I don't play her and am bad at the character I do play

luigi does lose to fox, I'm not going to argue with that one

 

[DMG]

If that's all it took for 50:50 with Fox then we'd give that ratio to like 15 other chars commonly rated to lose against him lol

 

[Avro-Arrow]

ZSS vs Fox is definitely not even, lol.

JFalls, who's quite optimistic about the character, thinks it's bad.

Neutral's hella skewed, punish game is even only if the ZSS can trick the Fox onto a platform, or get them offstage.

Things like nair > grab and uair > grab work with basically frame perfect timing at low percents, but this is situational and easily predictable if you're trying to force it (kind of like how bad MKs try to force short hop uairs, smh). I've seen people talk about how ZSS gets a grab, performs easy and guaranteed chain throw/tech chase, and comboes into death. 1. It's not guaranteed, 2. It takes good execution and 3. The damage output is depressing. Still, you have to go for grabs in neutral since basically nothing else you do is safe and it's a good way to break them out of CC percent.

Other ways to start comboes include upBoos, and utilt. Not sure, but perhaps utilt can be CC shined in between hits, although I doubt it (note: SDI with the knockback can pop you out). The upBoos can snipe cross-ups if you turnaround on startup and we all know utilt is busted, however, it's laggy on whiff so a Fox can space around this.

Fox has a lot of ways to play around these, all the while tacking on damage with lasers if he wishes. ZSS can try and play ambiguous but platform movement can be easily read by top players (not to say hers isn't remarkable in its own right) and her normals can all be played around.

Personally, I like looking for opportunities to wavebounce (or less often b-reverse) whip; it catches anti-air stuff and covers my landing while I don't lose unless it gets read/was really bad. Wavebounce/b-reverse lasers show promise but their usage is kind of limited since the uncharged ones go negative on hit (making them bad up close especially against someone that can CC them to get even more frame advantage) and do pennies' worth of damage, and the large ones are committal to start-up and reacted to (powershielded, jumped over, shield > wd oos, etc.). However, catching your opponent off guard is what they're there for and so hopefully they'll get caught messing up.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Testing ZSS stuff, just now finding out her dair has a sour spot. That's... neat?

I'm ballparking a lot of stuff here but ima give some approx numbers for how her chainthrows look on fox. I'm starting with DI away. Uthrow regrab stuff doesn't seem feasible until after 25, assuming DI away. That's the point where there's about 2 frames leniency, but that's also for multiple inputs so realistically we might not expect to see that kind of performance consistently for a long time, if at all. I'd give it more percent on that, like 35-40% before starting the regrabs tbh. Any other DI gives pretty easy regrabs after like 10% with just grab in place/turn grab, with utilt before that. The window definitely increases with percent, ending slightly after 100 (slightly after 100 is sketchy since fox basically has to fall into the grab since there's only like a frame where his fall overlaps the grabbox in hitstun). With no DI, and probably similar for DI in, the regrab ends slightly after 75%. Some half DI behind her could probably get a vertical angle which would end the CG a bit earlier. At the point where no DI/DI behind/anything besides DI away no longer allow regrabs, utilt's pretty easy to hit, you can even just position to land just the vertical hit to prevent wonky SDI from messing with the linking hit. And that vertical hit is going to convert VERY hard. So basically Fox's options are DI away until 100% and then get fair sweet'd/RAR bair sweet'd/upair'd offstage, or don't DI/DI in until 75% then eat utilt vertical hit into fair sweet/bair sweet/almost anything to send him offstage/possibly extend the punish further.

But there's two issues here. The starting percent is pretty high. Even TAS inputs can't get a DI away regrab below like 15%. And humanly, expecting regrabs below 30% is a tall order currently, and still tough long-term even when player technical skill will have developed to extremes. Factoring that in, ZSS has to build a lot of percent relying off tech chases, assuming she gets a grab, or find other ways to build that percent. Additionally, platforms. Those numbers were found just on FD, because platforms complicate things. Chaingrabs don't like platforms. That doesn't make the chaingrab useless by any means of course- it gives ZSS some CP pressure. Fox won't want ZSS on FD, GHZ, and to a lesser extent, SV. PS2 and DL also have more scarce platform coverage (they're pretty empty in the middle) than many other stages. But since I don't think most stagelists give 3 bans, ZSS is gonna get one of those lightly platformed stages guaranteed as a CP and likely PS2 or DL for the starter (especially if both are on the starter list, but having just GHZ SV and PS2 as starters would work). Of course, the existence of platforms doesn't negate CG's entirely- it's a positional issue, and CG's can happen briefly even on YS. So what's gonna matter for those stages where she's not getting more than 2 regrabs due to platforms is what she can do with platform tech chasing. Which I don't know lol.

 

[W.A.C.]

So I'm looking up Project M info and I've heard Yoshi might not be viable because of bugs? Can someone further elaborate? How does that character fare under Project M's meta? Where does he struggle? Where does he excel? Who are the top players representing him? Does he even have notable players currently getting results with him? Are there any aspects to him that are worse than Melee Yoshi? If so, in which ways?

 

[DrinkingFood]

So I'm looking up Project M info and I've heard Yoshi might not be viable because of bugs? Can someone further elaborate? How does that character fare under Project M's meta? Where does he struggle? Where does he excel? Who are the top players representing him? Does he even have notable players currently getting results with him? Are there any aspects to him that are worse than Melee Yoshi? If so, in which ways?

For bugs, his shield has a small pokeable section on the bottom (certain aerials can hit it pretty consistently beneath platforms) and his rolls have a bug where he's forced to shield for like ~30 frames or something if he's holding shield immediately after rolling. I'm pretty sure those are the only bugs, and they're pretty manageable. Yoshi players like to say there's some bugs with how his hurtboxes work during bair/dtilt, but that's just misunderstanding of how hurtbox/hitbox collisions work. Also, Melee yoshi players like to say his DJCing is messed up in PM but that's actually just a change in how the input works due to the added option of rising DJ aerials from holding the button.

Afaik, most people think he's mediocre (it's hard to say anybody in PM is bad by any other game's standards), just not because of the bugs. There aren't any significant players with any real results with him I don't believe. He's better than melee yoshi in most ways, often in the form of improved hitbox placement/animations, like bair/utilt being larger, grab working better (his dash grab/pivot grab are actually amazing), side-b being usable for recovery, nB having better reach, rising double jump aerials, jump OoS (but at the loss of parry and reduced shield stun, basically he has a mostly unpokeable shield now), probably a ton of other small improvements from Melee. But respective to his tier placement in melee, I don't think he actually got THAT many buffs, probably not enough to compete as well as many characters in PM. Samus, by comparison, typically place much higher on the Melee tier list and got a ton more buffs going into PM. That's not necessarily how you would define viability in PM, but it's a convenient shortcut for looking at how they might compare, and in that lens, it doesn't look that great for Yoshi.

 

[eideeiit]

Best Yoshi is most likely Eyeheartlovetap, other notables are at least Tombo and Hamyojo (inactive), but Yoshi doesn't really have that much rep. Coming from Melee he lost the parry, but now he can jump OoS which is (imo) hella more useful. The bugs include at least a very small spot he can be shieldpoked from and some other things like extra lag after a roll if you hold shield too long or something, idk, don't take my word for it. didds

 

[W.A.C.]

Damn, Yoshi sounds pretty mediocre, especially with the shield bugs. ._. Why can't he be great in a Smash game for once? Closest he came to that was Smash 64, but I don't care about that game. So what competitive advantages does he have to make someone want to use him over other characters outside of play style preference?

 

[redbeanjelly]

You'll have to elaborate on what you mean by "competitive advantages", but if you prefer to play Yoshi then that itself is some sort of advantage. It's much easier to do well and improve with a character that feels good in your hands. Depending on how much that sort of ease matters to you, you can settle on Fox or you can pick the character you like.

 

[W.A.C.]

Competitive advantages, as in what does that character offer over others that gives Yoshi a strong competitive edge? In Smash 4 for example, ZSS and MK have a godlike punish game, Shiek and Diddy Kong have a godlike neutrals, Mario is probably the strongest example of a character that rewards solid fundamentals, Rosalina is amazing at walling out opponents, Donkey Kong and Bowser have godlike kill confirms out of grabs, Pikachu and Shiek are godlike at both edge guarding and recovering, etc. What does Yoshi offer to make a highly competitive player want to play him over other characters?

 

[didds]

Yoshi prolly ranks higher in melee than pm overall simply because of the overall improved roster in pm. People basically summed him up already, some bugs that are barely noticeable most of the time and the trade off of jump oos and improved hitboxes for parry.

Why would you play him? Well the main reason is that you feel his might deep within your soul and you like 'boing' sounds. It's also worth mentioning he has tons of options which allows a lot of creativity with his neutral and punish game.

Idk man it's Yoshi, it's just funny to play him and sayisfying to win with him. Plus you can't really john when you lose to him so that's a plus. Oh and sometimes you do basic things but no one knows **** about Yoshi so people get hype so that's also funny. Honestly, serious people shouldn't play Yoshi he's a weirdo

Edit: simplified version of competitive edges:

Punish game, baiting game, unfamiliarity in the mu, stuff and stuff. He can have a complicated game plan depending on his opponent but I'd consider him solo main able still, he has the neutral tools to manage any mu, even if he doesn't win them. Prolly one of the few characters beat fox at one point, when his grab was still bonkers

Editedit: he can basically do everything, just in a more difficult Yoshi kinda way. Like some edgeguard with bair. Yoshi edgeguards with some edge cancelled eggs, then rising bair, then dash attack, then dsmash or something. He needs a certain degree of setup and a high degree of anticipation. Not many safe in between options, he's a bit of a commit to your read or don't character. Messing one djc aerial up can lead to death with him

Editeditedit: so yea I see no reason to pick him if you're purely competitive. There are better and less technically demanding characters that have easier and more universal game plans

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Bair might actually have distorted hurtboxes like bbox shows. I made some pictures that give credence to the idea. Dtilt is completely normal though.

 

[didds]

Still pretty much a non issue. Bair is used to fill a certain arc of space with hitboxes. Trying to space or poke with it usually is a bad idea anyway. I use bair for combos or to call out someone's movement. **** trades or loses to basically everything even in melee

Edit: don't wanna imply that you thought it was a big deal as much as clarify that it doesn't mess with its uses that much if it is true

 

[W.A.C.]

Does Yoshi's back air have terrible hitboxes in this game? o_O

 

[Avro-Arrow]

DrinkingFood On DI away, wouldn't you basically always run out of space pretty quickly on most stages? Especially since you're not very likely to be starting the chain throw on the edge of FD facing the middle or somewhere comparable every time.

As for the platforms, like I said, that's a good place for Fox. You can uair or use back hit of nair to pop them up for a combo (back hit is important at lower percents because the front hit will give him time to hit the floor; I'd rather him get hit by another aerial instead, tyvm), or use any of her other aerials to mix up timing, go for a kill, or go for a dair chain (which can be hard to set up, more than most people realize). Additionally, there's upB and uSmash: upB is a little slower with less coverage; as such it can be avoided easier; on the ground it'll drag them up and back down to the platform and used in the air could pop them up with just the launching hit. Most people don't like usmash in general (low damage, can be SDI'd, sends at 45 degree angle) but I find against fast fallers sometimes the trade-off between easy coverage vs. damage output and followups doesn't even harm it - they won't be sent that far away and you can probably get another usmash or an aerial or something.

 

[didds]

Does Yoshi's back air have terrible hitboxes in this game? o_O

Nah they're pretty amazing actually, it just doesn't have any disjoint so you can't just throw it out like a marth fair or anything. It's more of an approach tool. Used to auto cancel in melee and I imagine that's still the same

 

[W.A.C.]

Yoshi's tail isn't disjointed in Project M...why?

 

[didds]

Yoshi has had like no disjoint in most games, and if he does it's usually his head. He doesn't rely on it tho

Edit: you should look at melee nair hitboxes, total booty and he's better off with the reverse hit box, but he makes it work.