PlateProp
Smash Master
I always thought DK was better than bottom 5 and I live in Texas
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
dk is actually a really interesting character from what I saw in the vods and tr was doing things that I hadn't seen before that looked promising, mainly ambiguous sh nair jumpins after which he could either fade back and follow up with a dtilt (which appeared to be pretty safe on shield if spaced), follow up with a jab to grab, or just follow up with a plain grab. also, the ambiguity comes in when dk does a sh nair crossup on shield, after which dk can turnaround jab, utilt, or just plain grab.
if dk catches you not paying attention and you can't antiair in time you're either eating a nair combo or you're putting yourself in shield against all of that which doesn't look fun at all
but yeah against diddy dk can't even get enough stage presence to set up his dashdance game to produce those moments where he can nair or do anything else, and he kinda just has to play a single hit game with bair powering through peanuts or just poking with dtilt and trying to put them into a bad place where he can catch them with a grab or a platform sharked uair
dk is an interesting character but I probably don't know what I'm saying
if dk catches you not paying attention and you can't antiair in time you're either eating a nair combo or you're putting yourself in shield against all of that which doesn't look fun at all
but yeah against diddy dk can't even get enough stage presence to set up his dashdance game to produce those moments where he can nair or do anything else, and he kinda just has to play a single hit game with bair powering through peanuts or just poking with dtilt and trying to put them into a bad place where he can catch them with a grab or a platform sharked uair
dk is an interesting character but I probably don't know what I'm saying
Thunderz item play was fine. DK doesn't have good item pick up/toss at all, him z dropping it on the platform then fighting regularly was really optimally, considering the few times he does throw it back at June he does it too far away and doesn't do anything (other than the one toss on shield that got the auto trip hitbox but he didn't know and didn't react in time for the grab)
I say z dropping it on the platform was good because he got a log of milage off of shield drop upair/bair punishes on June trying to shark him off the platforms
I say z dropping it on the platform was good because he got a log of milage off of shield drop upair/bair punishes on June trying to shark him off the platforms
nimigoha
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2014
- Messages
- 877
DK Nair is even on shield and Dtilt is frame 6. Pretty safe to beat out shield grabs but after Dtilting a shield I dunno what the frame data is like, I don't want to rely too much on the 3.02 thread.
Like DK is basically Falcon with a poorer neutral game (i.e. doesn't have Falcon Nair or run speed) but probably better punishes against the cast as a whole (at least ones that don't rely on hard reads as much).
Shield pressure is interesting with him. He has a pretty good mixup with jabs. Like you want to wait to grab him out of Jab 2 but sometimes he'll stop after Jab 1 and sometimes he can just Nair>Grab. His shield pressure is basically just the latest SSBM Tutorials video. True for many characters but yeah, DK.
Like DK is basically Falcon with a poorer neutral game (i.e. doesn't have Falcon Nair or run speed) but probably better punishes against the cast as a whole (at least ones that don't rely on hard reads as much).
Shield pressure is interesting with him. He has a pretty good mixup with jabs. Like you want to wait to grab him out of Jab 2 but sometimes he'll stop after Jab 1 and sometimes he can just Nair>Grab. His shield pressure is basically just the latest SSBM Tutorials video. True for many characters but yeah, DK.
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JesteRace
Smash Journeyman
So, between Blue getting destroyed by Falcon and Sheik, and HoT squandering his potential (seriously, wtf was that last game against Sosa), FinalBOSS was pretty depressing to watch as a Link main.
Kapapanerp
Smash Apprentice
I know the feeling. I was really hoping to see more out of Casino Wolf's Mewtwo.
Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
I felt as if he should have just been throwing the bananas off stage. I only saw one him punish Junebug trying to pick it up 1 time, otherwise he always got hit immediately and June had his banana again. Wouldn't it be better to just force him to pull a new one?
If he has the opprotunity to do so without giving up positioning yeah I agree. I think the problem with just dropping things and throwing it off stage is that unlike it characters with really long grounded glide tosses who can do so pretty burst-movement like, DK has to run closer to the ledge and then do it. Its not telegraphed more so that it is just slower and gives diddy more time to capitalize on all the space he gave up.
I Also think DK struggles way more with diddy center stage (even if banana-less) than other charcters like marth/roy/GnW/m2 that have those crazy grounded glide toss's to throw it off stage with a glide toss started from center stage
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
arizona in general got exposed at final boss
lmao forte freak being the best arizona placement
lmao forte freak being the best arizona placement
eideeiit
Smash Ace
Wouldn't getting exposed require people thinking anything positive about them though? Afaik what they're known for is bad DI and Zman and salt.
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PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
I mean zman/others have kinda been talking up forte, blue, and cloudburst but like they didn't do much
did silly kyle and heysuess even go?
maybe exposed isn't the right word so much as now we can see what The New Arizona PM Scene power level looks like
dk looked like a lot of 50-50s or three-way choices where either you die if you guess wrong or DK dies where he guesses wrong. if he can consistently get the right option then he steamrolls you.
he seems pretty volatile, kinda like a smash version of seth but without all the buttonmashing that goes along with playing seth and with more terrible "expand dong" memes added
nimigoha
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2014
- Messages
- 877
DK is super volatile. Grab them and get 70% or a kill, or get hit and get 70% or a kill done to you.
PM is like that with a lot of characters though I think, pretty much every character has the ability to do a lot of crap to their opponent if the opponent is caught slippin'.
That's generally why people disagree on tier placements imo. Someone will be like "Buff Pit he's the worst" and then we see a Gallo combo with a gazillion Uairs into Up B.
Every character has a punish game.
And yeah I think Silly Kyle is legitimately very good, not even just in the scope of AZ. I highly doubt he went, he would have made it to bracket.
PM is like that with a lot of characters though I think, pretty much every character has the ability to do a lot of crap to their opponent if the opponent is caught slippin'.
That's generally why people disagree on tier placements imo. Someone will be like "Buff Pit he's the worst" and then we see a Gallo combo with a gazillion Uairs into Up B.
Every character has a punish game.
And yeah I think Silly Kyle is legitimately very good, not even just in the scope of AZ. I highly doubt he went, he would have made it to bracket.
eideeiit
Smash Ace
Silly Kyle is good yeah
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
I don't think any of his frame data has changed since 3.0, just some minor things that were changed in 3.5. -1 damage on fair/nair/bair & grab range reduction. Dtilt should be IASA 20-22ish, I don't remember.
I mean
other than hyping up blue for beating axe/medz/jaime (which is well deserved) az didn't really make many claims
Blue and Fortefreak are 5th and 6th on the PR. Blue bustered day 2 and forte got 9th. Blue also knocked out casino wolf (8th on pr) who was doing really well but az team kills. Casino wolf, Chip and n810 did okay day 2. yink made it out then went 0-2 to norcal.
Fortefreak beating DP and Hero of Time 2-0 does say something too.
Ilovebagels performed the best after blue win and forte wise imo, beat Sneez in pools and neighbor in bracket, lost to stereokids in winners then a last stock set vs Hero of time in losers (luigi/link lmao).
Kyle and Heysuess didn't go.
Considering at brocal bunch Blue got 9th and everyone else drowned or went 0-2, or at paragon where 3 people made it out of bracket but Axe/Heysuess dropped out to sleep in and neon wen't 0-2 to Sosa and Eddymexico, I think AZ did make a statement and put ourselves back on the map. New blood is stepping up (blue Bagels Casino Wolf)
Compared to a few months ago AZ has put out a much better image, although only really have had newmexico and Socal cross scene interactions other than just videos. We'd have a much better image if Sanchaz woke up at Kings of the North and made top 8 ez like he would have instead of just sleeping in and moneymatching everyone who placed high
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jtm94
Smash Lord
i get that dk's item throw and WD aren't the best, but there were still times it seemed like June relinquished control of the stage that held the banana, but Thunder didn't even go for it even though I think it's pivotal in almost all of Diddy's MUs. Does he just throw bananas weak or is his release just late? I do kind of agree with the platform z drop, but even then there were times I felt he could have handled things better. Throwing banana oos is probably better than DK's other options.
AZ did fine idk why they get hate. They didn't send their best, but then regions like WA didn't send their top 2 either. You can't say much about HoT's performance because he doesn't place well out of state because it seems like he has some kind of mentality issues, but that's just my observation. I don't think out of state wins vs him should carry a ton of weight. I mean in all reality it's hard to judge Project M results because of how many unknown/skewed MUs exist that throw the standings for a loop. Junebug is one of the few constants but that's because his character is capable vs the entire cast and he just maintains composure really well. You could reroll the tourney and have HoT, IPK, Sosa, or a host of other capable players in GFs vs Junebug, but I still think June probably would have won no matter who he ended up facing.
AZ did fine idk why they get hate. They didn't send their best, but then regions like WA didn't send their top 2 either. You can't say much about HoT's performance because he doesn't place well out of state because it seems like he has some kind of mentality issues, but that's just my observation. I don't think out of state wins vs him should carry a ton of weight. I mean in all reality it's hard to judge Project M results because of how many unknown/skewed MUs exist that throw the standings for a loop. Junebug is one of the few constants but that's because his character is capable vs the entire cast and he just maintains composure really well. You could reroll the tourney and have HoT, IPK, Sosa, or a host of other capable players in GFs vs Junebug, but I still think June probably would have won no matter who he ended up facing.
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PlateProp
Smash Master
Az probably gets hate because of how much the squirtle slack makes fun of them for not DIing against cloud and letting him get stupid ****
why would 5 people affect the pm population at large, tho?
you don't understand how big the squirtle circle jerk is over the fact cloud gets results.
Its larger than any of us
but squirtle is like, 4 pixels big. proven fact.
I didn't know Florida and Texas were actually the same state.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
WA didn't send their best because they are two Melee players and it was a pm only national.
And you are underestimating the Squirtle slack. We literally have a bot that says AZ can't DI evertime someone mentions Cloud or Cloudburst.
And you are underestimating the Squirtle slack. We literally have a bot that says AZ can't DI evertime someone mentions Cloud or Cloudburst.
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JesteRace
Smash Journeyman
That might be part of the problem though. Aftershock put him on the map, but then after LTC3, he suddenly went from "Dude to watch out for" to "Top player" and got all the pressure and expectation to keep performing as such, which could definitely contribute to mental problems that made his next few performances not as impressive (beating Sosa would've been a big breakthrough for his mentality, I think). Or maybe HoT is being a buster and Link sucks. What do I know?
Or maybe it's just that hardly anyone is consistent in this game.
dirtboy345
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2010
- Messages
- 715
AZ was definitely saying Cloud was the best Squirtle just before he went 1-2 in bracket
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Wat. Does AZ really have that low an opinion of squirtle? Because Cloud is only... alright. Not great. I already know you're better, dirtboy, just from having played you both. There can't be any way he performs well in AZ regularly. Granted I played both of you on netplay, but it's not far from offline play usually, and I can see that you don't rely on the silly stuff cloud does. Cloud seems to neutral just by watergunning and bubbling. And very occasionally approaching. With worse punishes, too.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
AZ sometimes forgets that you exist
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
In order to maintain sanity, I presume.
I find that people either underrate or overrate water gun and there never seems to be the middle ground stance that I have. I think it is good as an anti projectile tool (obviously not lasers or other transcendent projectiles, but think Mario fireballs, Link bombs, etc). It also can be decent as an anti approach when you don't know what to use. I recall Dirt using it somewhat effectively against one of the Sonics when he went to Florida. Could end up being worthless if there is underexplored counterplay, but that is the great unknown with Squirtle.
Quick DK thought: If DK has a comparable Dash Dance to Marth and a solid Marth-esque dtilt, how can his neutral be so bad compared to Marth? I guess it could be that Marth doesn't have a very good neutral in PM, but I still don't see it. That and his recovery are all I hear for why he is terrible/bottom 5 and his punish game is why people feel he is better than he is. But if his neutral is better than what people are saying, I feel that would easily justify him being higher than bottom 5.
Random opinion: I don't think Meta Knight is the magical top 5 like people were touting him as awhile ago.
I find that people either underrate or overrate water gun and there never seems to be the middle ground stance that I have. I think it is good as an anti projectile tool (obviously not lasers or other transcendent projectiles, but think Mario fireballs, Link bombs, etc). It also can be decent as an anti approach when you don't know what to use. I recall Dirt using it somewhat effectively against one of the Sonics when he went to Florida. Could end up being worthless if there is underexplored counterplay, but that is the great unknown with Squirtle.
Quick DK thought: If DK has a comparable Dash Dance to Marth and a solid Marth-esque dtilt, how can his neutral be so bad compared to Marth? I guess it could be that Marth doesn't have a very good neutral in PM, but I still don't see it. That and his recovery are all I hear for why he is terrible/bottom 5 and his punish game is why people feel he is better than he is. But if his neutral is better than what people are saying, I feel that would easily justify him being higher than bottom 5.
Random opinion: I don't think Meta Knight is the magical top 5 like people were touting him as awhile ago.
Life
Smash Hero
(y)
re: DK's dash dance, bigger characters get less displacement out of the same dashdance as smaller characters, which is another unfortunate consequence of being big. Same issue that rolls have.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
DK's everything is still slower than marth's. He also can't wall with a conversion tool (marth's fair in this case), he has to use a slower bair that only fits one in a SH and only resets/gives slight advantage to DK on hit. DK is also larger so even if he had identical speed to marth (I'm pretty sure he's still slower) his DD would be worse for taking longer to evacuate the same space, and for being a larger target for projectiles/SH approaches. Also DK eats punishes way more heavily than marth. Probably worse than anyone else in the game- e's in the worst fall speed class for getting punished, he's large, and he has no quick combo breakers save up-b which is extremely risky and vulnerable to being baited out, putting him in a worse situation.
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nimigoha
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2014
- Messages
- 877
I don't agree that he has a bad neutral game, but it's definitely not as good as Marth's at keeping away. I think he's better at approaching though, simply because he has Nair>Jab mixups that Marth really doesn't have.
DrinkingFood
his Dash and Run stats are all better than or equal to Marth's, but you nailed it with "DD would be worse for taking longer to evacuate the same space".
DK has better conversions out of late Bair than you let on. At mid/low percents it leads into a grab. At higher percents it puts the opponent on the defensive.
While not as easy to combo as DK, Marth also doesn't really have fast combo breakers outside of Counter (pretty easily baited) and Dolphin Slash (basically DK's combo breaker but way way worse, DK has minimal landing lag out of it and way more maneuverability). For some characters DK's weight makes weight dependent throws really tough to convert from, since you have more endlag on the throw animation and his weight means he takes less hitstun than lighter characters.
TBH I don't know why we're comparing them. DK is more like Falcon that punishes off of grab without having to be 20GX or good at reads, and has a better recovery. And doesn't have the dumbest Nair in existence.
DrinkingFood
his Dash and Run stats are all better than or equal to Marth's, but you nailed it with "DD would be worse for taking longer to evacuate the same space". DK has better conversions out of late Bair than you let on. At mid/low percents it leads into a grab. At higher percents it puts the opponent on the defensive.
While not as easy to combo as DK, Marth also doesn't really have fast combo breakers outside of Counter (pretty easily baited) and Dolphin Slash (basically DK's combo breaker but way way worse, DK has minimal landing lag out of it and way more maneuverability). For some characters DK's weight makes weight dependent throws really tough to convert from, since you have more endlag on the throw animation and his weight means he takes less hitstun than lighter characters.
TBH I don't know why we're comparing them. DK is more like Falcon that punishes off of grab without having to be 20GX or good at reads, and has a better recovery. And doesn't have the dumbest Nair in existence.
zman804
Smash Ace
I feel pretty good about AZ's placings at FinalBOSS. Bagelz's Luigi movement impressed SoCal so much that JFalls was calling platform wave drops "the bagelz tech" and Blue triple 2 stocked Hero of Time 3-0. Hell, Casino Wolf nearly took a set from IPK. Plus, I feel like the stream being so well received reflects well on AZ as well.
edit: Dirtboy we were calling cloud for being to scared to accept PR rank matches from better players lower on the PR than him. Car consensus is that your have very nice neutral and edgeguards but the squirtle-jerk is obnoxious af
edit: Dirtboy we were calling cloud for being to scared to accept PR rank matches from better players lower on the PR than him. Car consensus is that your have very nice neutral and edgeguards but the squirtle-jerk is obnoxious af
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PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
why are people still being impressed by wavedrops when odds demonstrated them as a proof of concept back in 3.02, otek started implementing them in 3.5, and it was a critical part of xyk's movement during his most notable set at we tech those
what I also want to know is why bagels still does the tumbledashes which are usually strictly worse than vududashes or wavedrops
like it shouldn't be a techskill problem he can edgedash to wd back ramen noodle plenty consistently
what I also want to know is why bagels still does the tumbledashes which are usually strictly worse than vududashes or wavedrops
like it shouldn't be a techskill problem he can edgedash to wd back ramen noodle plenty consistently
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
IMO @Xykness is probably the best at consistently performing that tech and his mixup game between aerial / wavebounce fireballs is very solid.
I feel that movement buffs to Luigi's already superior mobility makes him such a great character. Aside from disjoint issues, what makes Luigi not much higher on tier lists? He's got a good projectile, RNG abused recovery to burst on-stage, decent combos & combo breakers, and his attack speed is also very quick
I feel that movement buffs to Luigi's already superior mobility makes him such a great character. Aside from disjoint issues, what makes Luigi not much higher on tier lists? He's got a good projectile, RNG abused recovery to burst on-stage, decent combos & combo breakers, and his attack speed is also very quick
Weight isn't taken into account for throw knockback.
Avro-Arrow
Smash Journeyman
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
remember when nausicaa said that luigi is top 5 in the game? yeah I remember
I put luigi at around 8th-15th on a tentative tier list
I don't care where pmu puts him, and anybody who puts mario an entire tier ahead of luigi doesn't know about luigi
and honestly wavedropping isn't actually much harder than learning how to perfect waveland by itself, the actual skill it takes isn't very much, squirtle's shellshift movement shenanigans are all probably more tech intensive than a simple wavedrop (wavedrops also aren't specific to luigi like any character that has a good wavedash can utilize it, it's just a whole lot more relevant as luigi because a. you have the best wavedash and therefore best wavedrop in the game and b. all your other platform-to-air movement options suck so much)
as for how good luigi is: luigi has a lot of tools at a lot of mixups and is pretty capable at responding with ambiguity to a lot of situations
luigi has control of the ground, has faster and stronger moves with more practical range than the majority of characters on the ground, will **** you up in shield if he ever finds you there (especially on a platform because platform cancel nairs are harder than in melee but still a thing and platform cancel uairs are only a few frames slower but are a lot easier to perform), has control over the sh space with sh fireball and intangible utilts and usmashes along with sh disjointed fair, and if he catches you in neutral with enough space to manouvre he'll put you in sh fireball waveland situation where the only really non-punishable solution is the powershield reflect the fireball or scramble for a move of your own that goes through fireball quick enough to hit luigi (like marth fmash ayy lmao, but even then that only works if you get a read on the luigi approaching you (which can and will happen given the nature of sh fireball waveland but I'll get to that in a second)), and he can combo/kill you very easily (lol shoryu)
but those are just his buttons, his movement and the ambiguous nature of it is what makes luigi really good (and wavedropping isn't even relevant here that's largely just a get-out-of-here thing or a combo extender tool, it's biggest use as an offensive tool is a diagonal nair approach when the opponent isn't expecting it)
luigi can do two aerials (save nair) in a single sh and can waveland out of a single aerial. this allows him to both pressure space like marth as well as escape or follow up with a waveland either fowards or backwards (sh in neutral is a dumb thing to do if your opponent can hit you, so don't do it when you're too close. also this thing is why sh fireball camping is so good). luigi can do wavedrop breverse/wavebounce fireball shenanigans (bagels does them on occasion, I haven't actually found a definitive use (as in when you use them in this situation they are better than all other options) they're largely just an neutral/offensive mixup, especially when edgeguarding because you wavedrop off as if you were going for an offstage aerial and then breverse/wavebounce fireball instead to both return yourself to the stage as well as cover the mangle area with a fireball hitbox, while leaving yourself facing towards the edge in prime position to down angle foward tilt (aka DAFT that gawd (once upon a time I read this was oracle's favorite thing))). altho wavescuttling has been largely deemed by most people to be "vaportech" (ie tech that exists but doesn't have practical usage that will ever see the light of day ie smash4 perfect pivoting lmao), it actually is pretty useful to mixup movement in neutral (especially when playing a runaway sh fireball game, because you can feint a fireball waveland approach but then immediately do the 1-frame scuttle feint to return yourself to your initial position as well as possibly using a positionally safe dsmash to catch the opponent trying to approach) as well as when covering ledge options (is your opponent standing to close to the ledge for comfort? just do a ledgedash wavescuttle utilt which will come out during intangibility frames and give you momentum/stage control). also the myth that wavescuttling is only viable in one direction is wrong, in order to get the full momentum fient, it's the same frame/angle window facing either direction.
and that kind of brings us to my next topic, which is luigi's edge game. luigi (at least in my experience, idk) is one of the few (if not the only? not sure, possibly wolf) characters that can use being on the ledge as an advantageous stage position, and not just for non-interactive things like laser haxdash that leave no room for responding open. if you look at this video of xyk and june (https://youtu.be/vhw3jLscjxA?t=308 is the timestamp of an example, though not the only one) you can see that staying on the edge of the stage with your back to the ledge is something that xyk uses to protect himself from crossups with banana as well as carve out a little bit of stage control when he needs it. when luigi is on the ledge, he can instantly regain a position close to center stage with a ledgedash if need be, but that's only in a worst case scenario. luigi gets an intangible aerial out of ledge, at which point he can either force the opponent to shield, where he can continue pressure with his usual double aerials, retreat to back to ledge for more invinc frames, or cross up over back towards center and get a situational stage position reversal or at least an escape from pressure. opponents are often forced into this situation because straying in the "sweet spot" of luigi ledgedash allows them to be able to be hit with any number of invuln options, not limited to jab, grab, dmsash, utilt, ftilt, and shoryuken (which on most stages can be made safe on shield by fading back and platform cancelling the endlag, or by regrabbing ledge again. luigi also still retains his sh fireball waveland from melee, as well as ledgejump waveland (which now can be turned into a wavedrop to regain center stage). luigi's ledge options especially when coupled with a side b ledgesnap allow him to punish a lot of offstage attempts to edgeguard
also luigi can grab ledge with sideb from onstage in case you didn't know but it's not thaaat useful
so, luigi pros and cons
pros: is very good at ground stage control in a traditional smash sense
is very good at overturning the traditional conceptions about stage control
is very good at being slippery and immediately regaining stage control/positioning from an otherwise advantageous position
has safe shield pressure that leads into grab, which leads into di mixup followups which lead into luigi aerials which kill quickly
is very good at clanking and beating out other clank responses
has godlike horizontal movement as well as a pretty quick initial upwards jump movement
rng on recovery can be farmed to basically give him an instant ticket back to stage while recovering high
jab is godlike, probably the best jab in the game
frame 3 nair that kills at like 130 and can also be used to set up combos/for oki
cons: really floaty
jumping is hella commitment lol
has trouble characters that can either power through his tools on the ground or have quick enough disjointed moves that playing the ground game suddenly becomes a whole lot more risky and luigi is forced to go back to sh fireballs and running away constantly, which is much harder to do than his game otherwise (see, luigi v marth, or luigi v bowser (cc dsmash armor is surprisingly good at dealing with typical luigi things (luigi has other ways of dealing with bowser but bowser still forces him to alter his gameplan))
has trouble with characters that can shut his ground game/horizontal game down with item play (see: link, diddy)
has trouble with characters that can ignore all of his ground movement and kinda run away or jump over him (falcon)
however, luigi has responses for all of these (such as taking item characters to triplat stages where he can move more vertically and not rely on the ground, or playing a campy poke game focused solely on ftilt, or approacing with wavedash spotdodge to avoid marth dtilts, or jsut fireball camping), but each requires a more or less drastic shift in playstyle/strategy
this is why I put luigi somewhere in high tier but not in top tier, because he has tools to deal with counter-play but has to alter his gameplan quite a bit in some cases
also I think that luigi is a solo-mainable character that has "returns on skill difference" which means if you are better at playing smash as a concept you will have the ability to beat your opponent. if you are better than them, there's not really a situation where you can get cheesed or hard countered out of a win.
these opinions expressed here are not the opinions of The Luigi Skype Group as a whole and The Luigi Skype Group does not necessarily endorse such opinions
ie I'm a scrub who as no fundamentals (-Drinkingfood) and am probably wrong about lots of things
sorry about the length and the parentheticals I'll deal with whatever angry formatting comments you people give me later (also **** spoiler tags I aint about to do that). it also is dawning on me that I have class tomorrow and readings I haven't finished yet and sleep I must obtain so I guess my post ends here goodnight all, squirtle is broken Kappa
I put luigi at around 8th-15th on a tentative tier list
I don't care where pmu puts him, and anybody who puts mario an entire tier ahead of luigi doesn't know about luigi
and honestly wavedropping isn't actually much harder than learning how to perfect waveland by itself, the actual skill it takes isn't very much, squirtle's shellshift movement shenanigans are all probably more tech intensive than a simple wavedrop (wavedrops also aren't specific to luigi like any character that has a good wavedash can utilize it, it's just a whole lot more relevant as luigi because a. you have the best wavedash and therefore best wavedrop in the game and b. all your other platform-to-air movement options suck so much)
as for how good luigi is: luigi has a lot of tools at a lot of mixups and is pretty capable at responding with ambiguity to a lot of situations
luigi has control of the ground, has faster and stronger moves with more practical range than the majority of characters on the ground, will **** you up in shield if he ever finds you there (especially on a platform because platform cancel nairs are harder than in melee but still a thing and platform cancel uairs are only a few frames slower but are a lot easier to perform), has control over the sh space with sh fireball and intangible utilts and usmashes along with sh disjointed fair, and if he catches you in neutral with enough space to manouvre he'll put you in sh fireball waveland situation where the only really non-punishable solution is the powershield reflect the fireball or scramble for a move of your own that goes through fireball quick enough to hit luigi (like marth fmash ayy lmao, but even then that only works if you get a read on the luigi approaching you (which can and will happen given the nature of sh fireball waveland but I'll get to that in a second)), and he can combo/kill you very easily (lol shoryu)
but those are just his buttons, his movement and the ambiguous nature of it is what makes luigi really good (and wavedropping isn't even relevant here that's largely just a get-out-of-here thing or a combo extender tool, it's biggest use as an offensive tool is a diagonal nair approach when the opponent isn't expecting it)
luigi can do two aerials (save nair) in a single sh and can waveland out of a single aerial. this allows him to both pressure space like marth as well as escape or follow up with a waveland either fowards or backwards (sh in neutral is a dumb thing to do if your opponent can hit you, so don't do it when you're too close. also this thing is why sh fireball camping is so good). luigi can do wavedrop breverse/wavebounce fireball shenanigans (bagels does them on occasion, I haven't actually found a definitive use (as in when you use them in this situation they are better than all other options) they're largely just an neutral/offensive mixup, especially when edgeguarding because you wavedrop off as if you were going for an offstage aerial and then breverse/wavebounce fireball instead to both return yourself to the stage as well as cover the mangle area with a fireball hitbox, while leaving yourself facing towards the edge in prime position to down angle foward tilt (aka DAFT that gawd (once upon a time I read this was oracle's favorite thing))). altho wavescuttling has been largely deemed by most people to be "vaportech" (ie tech that exists but doesn't have practical usage that will ever see the light of day ie smash4 perfect pivoting lmao), it actually is pretty useful to mixup movement in neutral (especially when playing a runaway sh fireball game, because you can feint a fireball waveland approach but then immediately do the 1-frame scuttle feint to return yourself to your initial position as well as possibly using a positionally safe dsmash to catch the opponent trying to approach) as well as when covering ledge options (is your opponent standing to close to the ledge for comfort? just do a ledgedash wavescuttle utilt which will come out during intangibility frames and give you momentum/stage control). also the myth that wavescuttling is only viable in one direction is wrong, in order to get the full momentum fient, it's the same frame/angle window facing either direction.
and that kind of brings us to my next topic, which is luigi's edge game. luigi (at least in my experience, idk) is one of the few (if not the only? not sure, possibly wolf) characters that can use being on the ledge as an advantageous stage position, and not just for non-interactive things like laser haxdash that leave no room for responding open. if you look at this video of xyk and june (https://youtu.be/vhw3jLscjxA?t=308 is the timestamp of an example, though not the only one) you can see that staying on the edge of the stage with your back to the ledge is something that xyk uses to protect himself from crossups with banana as well as carve out a little bit of stage control when he needs it. when luigi is on the ledge, he can instantly regain a position close to center stage with a ledgedash if need be, but that's only in a worst case scenario. luigi gets an intangible aerial out of ledge, at which point he can either force the opponent to shield, where he can continue pressure with his usual double aerials, retreat to back to ledge for more invinc frames, or cross up over back towards center and get a situational stage position reversal or at least an escape from pressure. opponents are often forced into this situation because straying in the "sweet spot" of luigi ledgedash allows them to be able to be hit with any number of invuln options, not limited to jab, grab, dmsash, utilt, ftilt, and shoryuken (which on most stages can be made safe on shield by fading back and platform cancelling the endlag, or by regrabbing ledge again. luigi also still retains his sh fireball waveland from melee, as well as ledgejump waveland (which now can be turned into a wavedrop to regain center stage). luigi's ledge options especially when coupled with a side b ledgesnap allow him to punish a lot of offstage attempts to edgeguard
also luigi can grab ledge with sideb from onstage in case you didn't know but it's not thaaat useful
so, luigi pros and cons
pros: is very good at ground stage control in a traditional smash sense
is very good at overturning the traditional conceptions about stage control
is very good at being slippery and immediately regaining stage control/positioning from an otherwise advantageous position
has safe shield pressure that leads into grab, which leads into di mixup followups which lead into luigi aerials which kill quickly
is very good at clanking and beating out other clank responses
has godlike horizontal movement as well as a pretty quick initial upwards jump movement
rng on recovery can be farmed to basically give him an instant ticket back to stage while recovering high
jab is godlike, probably the best jab in the game
frame 3 nair that kills at like 130 and can also be used to set up combos/for oki
cons: really floaty
jumping is hella commitment lol
has trouble characters that can either power through his tools on the ground or have quick enough disjointed moves that playing the ground game suddenly becomes a whole lot more risky and luigi is forced to go back to sh fireballs and running away constantly, which is much harder to do than his game otherwise (see, luigi v marth, or luigi v bowser (cc dsmash armor is surprisingly good at dealing with typical luigi things (luigi has other ways of dealing with bowser but bowser still forces him to alter his gameplan))
has trouble with characters that can shut his ground game/horizontal game down with item play (see: link, diddy)
has trouble with characters that can ignore all of his ground movement and kinda run away or jump over him (falcon)
however, luigi has responses for all of these (such as taking item characters to triplat stages where he can move more vertically and not rely on the ground, or playing a campy poke game focused solely on ftilt, or approacing with wavedash spotdodge to avoid marth dtilts, or jsut fireball camping), but each requires a more or less drastic shift in playstyle/strategy
this is why I put luigi somewhere in high tier but not in top tier, because he has tools to deal with counter-play but has to alter his gameplan quite a bit in some cases
also I think that luigi is a solo-mainable character that has "returns on skill difference" which means if you are better at playing smash as a concept you will have the ability to beat your opponent. if you are better than them, there's not really a situation where you can get cheesed or hard countered out of a win.
these opinions expressed here are not the opinions of The Luigi Skype Group as a whole and The Luigi Skype Group does not necessarily endorse such opinions
ie I'm a scrub who as no fundamentals (-Drinkingfood) and am probably wrong about lots of things
sorry about the length and the parentheticals I'll deal with whatever angry formatting comments you people give me later (also **** spoiler tags I aint about to do that). it also is dawning on me that I have class tomorrow and readings I haven't finished yet and sleep I must obtain so I guess my post ends here goodnight all, squirtle is broken Kappa