Tier List Speculation

[D e l t a]

AZ needs to learn proper DI before they can properly say a character is good or not. For example, the main reason Neon trampled them (still does) is because Lucas bodies people for free with bad DI. With DI, there's some less guaranteed stuff, but he can still get solid punishes. Similarly, players such as Junebug make DK look amazing when they keep holding in and get bodied for it.

Not to mention AZ's neutral is lacking IMO, so it makes sense that characters such as ICs could give their players (cloud) a hard time, being that people don't study the unplayed characters, let alone look into counterplay for the characters in their own state.

 

[Rᴏb]

oh, it's a stupid name for sure, but unfortunately it's what a lot of people understand wavedropping to be

if I could decide, wavedropping would be when you perform a shield drop and an airdodge simultaneously to do **** like this.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Life DrinkingFood @nimigoha

Actually, after 5 frames of dashing back + 1 frame of pivot, DK evacuates more space than Marth does. After 10 frames + 1 of pivot, Marth beats him. DK's fatness is not a factor in this instance. If you think of it as distance from TopN, you see why. While DK's legs are far from TopN (on the dash back portion), the face is equally far from TopN (on the dashing towards portion). What needs to happen is the front portion needs to be smaller than the back portion in their respective instances. For an example of a good dash animation, look at Jigglypuff. Her front is decently far, but the back is tiny. So when she dashes back, she evacuates more space than you would expect given her dash stats might lead you to believe. (I am in no way advocating Puff mains to dash dance solely for this reason, just exemplifies the concept well). When 2 characters have similar dash stats (Marth and DK have comparable initial dash lengths, I presume similar speeds since they also both have 15 frame long initial dashes, though DK probs has better acceleration and Marth has better top speed). I will give you that DK's occupies slightly more vertical space.

After 10 frames is fairly important too, though. Being able to retreat a good distance and neither lose speed nor commit to a run is important. Marth going further after those 10 frames and having much farther to slide for his delayed DD is significant- DK can't evacuate that space in the event of somebody trying to overshoot his DD. In order to overshoot marth's DD fully, the opponent has to commit to being vulnerable in marth's threat zone for longer.

Also feet don't have hurtboxes, so your lines for both characters are a bit skewed, tho the point is still made.

 

[D e l t a]

oh, it's a stupid name for sure, but unfortunately it's what a lot of people understand wavedropping to be

if I could decide, wavedropping would be when you perform a shield drop and an airdodge simultaneously to do **** like this.

I'm confused, what happened after the bacon? it looked like a B-reverse but somehow GnW airdodged out of bacon to grab the stitch?

 

[Strong Badam]

Life DrinkingFood @nimigoha

Actually, after 5 frames of dashing back + 1 frame of pivot, DK evacuates more space than Marth does. After 10 frames + 1 of pivot, Marth beats him. DK's fatness is not a factor in this instance. If you think of it as distance from TopN, you see why. While DK's legs are far from TopN (on the dash back portion), the face is equally far from TopN (on the dashing towards portion). What needs to happen is the front portion needs to be smaller than the back portion in their respective instances. For an example of a good dash animation, look at Jigglypuff. Her front is decently far, but the back is tiny. So when she dashes back, she evacuates more space than you would expect given her dash stats might lead you to believe. (I am in no way advocating Puff mains to dash dance solely for this reason, just exemplifies the concept well). When 2 characters have similar dash stats (Marth and DK have comparable initial dash lengths, I presume similar speeds since they also both have 15 frame long initial dashes, though DK probs has better acceleration and Marth has better top speed). I will give you that DK's occupies slightly more vertical space.

I am skeptical of your methods. Marth indeed has a lower initial dash velocity (1.5 vs 1.8) but he does not possess a higher run maximum speed (both have 1.8).

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Strong Badam

I can double check tomorrow for sure, but here is exactly what I did. The starting point is the same: I rolled to the inside edge of the BF platform, turned around, and dropped through. Then I dashed the full frames of initial dash and took a screenshot, this makes the gray line. Then I inputted back, counted the frame of pivot, then 5 frame of initial dash and took a screenshot. This is the middle line. Then I dashed 5 more frames and took the final screenshot with the final blue line being this.

DrinkingFood

Fair enough. I saved all the editable gimp files and will probably go through all of them with BrawlBox to assist in making the lines more accurate. To be clear, I wasn't trying to say that DK's was better than Marth, just that the hurtboxes/being fat aren't an issue like I (and many others) presumed.

 

[Life]

oh, it's a stupid name for sure, but unfortunately it's what a lot of people understand wavedropping to be

I have literally never heard anyone use the term this way. It's always "wavedash down."

 

[Ripple]

@Swigo and everyone else. I get that it's fun to poke fun at me because I think DDD is bad but I have never said that DDD doesn't have some good MUs against many top tiers.

I've posted his MU chart a couple times and no one has had any heavy disagreement with it at all. Most debated MU with DDD is his puff one. Which I think he loses

 

[D e l t a]

I've posted his MU chart a couple times and no one has had any heavy disagreement with it at all. Most debated MU with DDD is his puff one. Which I think he loses

Can you link it? Either the chart got buried in here or some other general discussion but I couldn't find it anywhere on the DDD boards

 

[didds]

Squirtle doesn't really get bodied by anyone, he definitely has losing mus but icies is prolly relatively even. Squirtle players body themselves sometimes tho as I can personally attest to.

eh, I was gonna say more and elaborate but too much work, it's not like anyone even cares about this stupid character.

Yoshi still does stuff.

Dk is amazing and still sucks and is arguably one of the worst characters but is good?

Pika incorporating dtilt, ftilt, and fair in neutral makes him substantially stronger and helps mitigate his weakness of being choked out by priority. having trouble with fox nair plane or a pesky marth dd'ing all up on you and making you spot dodge or roll like a panicky fool? Ftilt those jerks. Lingers and has decent priority and often puts your opponent at the perfect range to start pikas mixup game.

Pika has this weird fake stage presence thing with him where waiting and micro camping is amazing because of what punishes he can dish out and how well he can start these punishes with his mobility, but at the same he has to somehow threaten the opponent in the first place to draw out panick options, which is hard when your threatening tools are fairly high commitment. His relatively safe options don't set up for a ton, and his options that set up good punishes aren't very safe.

That's why a Pika May throw out dsmashes and usmashes in neutral, he kind of has to to build respect in the opponent. it's not easy getting grabs in neutral and he doesn't have a low lag conversion option like shine or fair walls. And if the opponent doesn't eat a usmash > punish, he has no reason to worry about approaching pika.

A lot of the gameplan is get a couple good neutral reads and tech reads and make the punish count, that way they have the fear of a punish game that's explosive, while maybe overestimating how easy it was for pika to get the punish in the first place. Now they question whether they're safe and open up more mixup room and reaction room for pikachu.

Sometimes people see axe whiff an usmash or dsmash in neutral and question why he even did it, well the answer is he has to to establish the situations where pikachu does win, because it's def not attrition battles that he's winning. Obviously a different game and pikachu doesn't have as limited tools in pm, but same concepts apply.

TL:DR


Pika is good but tricky and requires some reading skills.

Squirtle can always beat people up, but can get cg'd by people like Ganon and link who obviously suck so he sucks but he's still good because this game is neat.

Same with dk but the fat guy version so he's easy to pick on.

Ha yoshis in this game guys.

Work is incredibly exciting today

Edit: too much work I said, I guess I actually just don't like squirtle

 

[D e l t a]

I still don't understand the unreasonable dislike for squirtle. Dirtboy hasn't played over half the country and yet they complain more than anybody else in MI.

The MU is straightforward: get past his bubble / water gun walls then read his movement and punish. You can't throw out light moves that will get armor'd by Nair / SideB but you can't over-commit because of Squirtle's quick, burst movement.

This is basically 90% of MUs in PM, but my point stands. If people spent more time practicing against the character rather than complaining, there'd be less hate. Kind of like the GnW MU

 

[didds]

Well he can be super annoying.

And I honestly don't think anything is straightforward in this game. Everything is too dynamic. Straightforward implies a relatively simple solution for a relatively consistent problem. The problems you face trying to beat your opponent are not (or shouldn't be) that consistent and obviously that means the same for the solutions.

It's Rock Paper Scissors in the simplest description possible, but in a world where there are thousands of options and sometimes rock beats scissors and paper but then paper can beat rock as long as a lightbulb burned out prior to the match and sometimes boot beats all 3 but boot also loses to whistle that loses to everything else, well unless there's a full moon...

 

[Xykness]

I was gona ask wtf a wavedrop was until Xykness explained it. Is it Luigi exclusive? Sorry lol idk anything.

I use it with any character I play... but characters like Luigi and Squirtle will get the most mileage off of it. HyperFlame even talked about how its pretty good for Lucas in his latest Lucas tutorial with Junebug.

not to rain on anyone's parade, but wavedropping is already a thing from melee; it's the act of wavedashing straight down.

Also... nobody calls wave-dashing down, "wave-dropping."
LOL

 

[PlateProp]

Because he's fast and small and hurr durr up b is unpunishable at the ledge, I piss my pants and curl up into a ball any time squirtle recovers please mommy make the scary turtle go away!

 

[Xykness]

Because he's fast and small and hurr durr up b is unpunishable at the ledge, I piss my pants and curl up into a ball any time squirtle recovers please mommy make the scary turtle go away!

Just use a disjoint or utilize ledge invulnerability Squirtle's recovery isn't that annoying once you understand it.

 

[PlateProp]

Just use a disjoint or utilize ledge invulnerability Squirtle's recovery isn't that annoying once you understand it.

that was sarcasm

 

[Xykness]

that was sarcasm

I know, but people actually say that stuff and its hilairious LOL.

 

[PlateProp]

I know, but people actually say that stuff and its hilairious LOL.

...that was the point though...

inb4 umbreon comes back again saying it's unoptimal to grab ledge against squirtle's up b

 

[Rᴏb]

Also... nobody calls wave-dashing down, "wave-dropping."
LOL

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I've heard it before. I'm also in bumble **** buffalo so maybe that's why

 

[Ripple]

Can you link it? Either the chart got buried in here or some other general discussion but I couldn't find it anywhere on the DDD boards

I can't seem to find it either but it was something like this

-3
-2
-1
0
+1
+2

The rest are unsure

 

[D e l t a]

Ah, cool. Thanks!

Probably doesn't mean much, but I'd agree with most of those listed as well.

Only 3 I don't understand:

GnW– waddles/Ftilt can mitigate bacon, huge weight difference, and similar range. I'd say the only major factor seems to be speed of GnW. Probs like +2

Lucas– mostly unexplored in-depth. Lack of abusing Lucas' linear approach options vs DDD's anti-horizontal approach options. Gimps, combos on Lucas (since we all know what Lucas can do to DDD / heavies), and in general, there doesn't seem to be solid Lucas-counterplay established. +1 at worst IMO

Puff– one of the few characters out-ranged (DDD Ftilt & Bair), DDD's kill power (save for Jigg's rest), and the weight difference. Shouldn't that be +1 DDD favor?

 

[JesteRace]

I know **** all about Dedede, so I'm not disagreeing, but it seems weird that Tink would be -3 and Link would be even. I know Tink is obviously better, but what's the reason for the huge gap there?

 

[D e l t a]

The same primary reason that Link and Tink are universally different: jump speed/height and overall speed differences. Link plays a heavy ground camp game whereas Tink can play grounded, aerial camp style, or be aggressive with aerials / dash dancing

DDD is best fighting Link on the ground since his air game doesn't go over well against Link. DDD can still get airborne and throw out waddles / aerials without worrying too much about Link jumping up and hitting him or not being able to react to boomerang. Tink however, absolutely controls the air against DDD and can out-pace DDD's Ftilt / waddle walls while being able to get chip damage from a distance and not having many open weaknesses.

 

[G13_Flux]

I can't seem to find it either but it was something like this

-3
-2
-1
0
+1
+2

The rest are unsure

Only one that really surprises me in the Ganon MU. In my experience, ganon has a really tough time approaching DDD, since its so easy for DDD to out range him. Ganon has a slow enough ground speed that DDDs range makes it very difficult to find a way to get a conversion. What in your opinion makes this -1?

I know **** all about Dedede, so I'm not disagreeing, but it seems weird that Tink would be -3 and Link would be even. I know Tink is obviously better, but what's the reason for the huge gap there?

In my experience, its much safer for DDD to clank with things like rang or other attacks in the link MU, because of much poorer frame data. Tinks better mobility and frame data allows him to more properly place his projectiles (which are also generally better at converting) and thus, DDDs ability to camp out with waddle dees is pretty diminished. ultimately this means that link has a harder time getting conversions than tink on DDD AND links conversions are not as devastating as tinks.

 

[Bazkip]

Only one that really surprises me in the Ganon MU. In my experience, ganon has a really tough time approaching DDD, since its so easy for DDD to out range him. Ganon has a slow enough ground speed that DDDs range makes it very difficult to find a way to get a conversion. What in your opinion makes this -1?

I can give you Ripple's answer

Which is a giant load of horse****. DDD won't be able to live forever like he usually does, but he's definitely not dying super early either.

 

[Ripple]

Ganon has at least a 0-70% CG on DDD, which if DDD players DI to go straight up, up-smash will kill DDD, and if DDD players DI behind the CG continues for much longer until back air kills.

 

[Bazkip]

Bruh, it's Ganon. He doesn't have the best grab in the game. You do.

 

[Chevy]

Ripple is suffering from thinking Ganondorf might be ok syndrome. It happens when you lose to a Ganondorf and can't see that he's a bad character.

 

[_Chrome]

Bazkip Fox's and Wario's uthrows would like to argue that. Also DK's cargo uthrow.

jk. But it's funny when you consider how many super good grabs there are in the game that are attached to better characters than Ganon and Dedede. Just to clarify I'm not complaining about that and whining that everyone needs buffs or nerfs lol. That's how the game is and it's fine.

It is amusing you guys are arguing about this though. Nobody plays Dedede anymore, this is irrelevant.

Life I also call it "wavedash in place": worthless comment; just thought I'd throw my two cents in.

 

[Bazkip]

Bazkip Fox's and Wario's uthrows would like to argue that. Also DK's cargo uthrow.

I was talking about the actual grabs themselves, not their options out of a grab.

 

[_Chrome]

Oh. I mean, Ganon's CG is pretty "dope" as the kids say these days. But from a strict grab standpoint, Ganon's grab is pretty petite for such a big man.

 

[G13_Flux]

I mean, i get that ganons chain grab wrecks everyone, but what about neutral? saying that ganon wins because he has a 0-60 chain grab on like everyone is like people saying X character beats fox because they have the touch of death on him. I think DDDs neutral interaction should really be accounted for in this scenario. its not easy for ganon to get a grab when you have some of the best spacing moves in the game.

not neccesarily saying I dont trust ripples opinion on DDD, but i dont think his argument is convincing for this MU.

 

[Sundark]

Ripple is suffering from thinking Ganondorf might be ok syndrome. It happens when you lose to a Ganondorf and can't see that he's a bad character.

Currently afflicted by this. What the hell do you do when he just spaces Fairs all day, and any attempt to get in on them is met with either getting hit by them, or the jab that follows?

 

[eideeiit]

Afaik the best thing to do is to try to avoid that situation altogether, since it's pretty heavily in Ganon's favor. The simplest way keeping your distance and camping outside DA range and maybe reacting to desperate side- & down-bs if you feel like you have the focus for that or just moving away from those threat zones quick enough. Most characters have ways to do that with movement or projectiles or some shiz.

Don't play Ganon's game.

"Ganon" can kinda be replaced with "slow character"

*The obligatory I suck etc.

 

[CORY]

Currently afflicted by this. What the hell do you do when he just spaces Fairs all day, and any attempt to get in on them is met with either getting hit by them, or the jab that follows?

Punish the jab, bait out fair and punish the endlag, or make him approach you on your own terms, typically via projectile pressure.

None on their own will solve the issue (though getting a lead and dash dancing him out of the game is fairly string if you have a good dd character...) but it's a good way to start.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Note that Ganon spacing fairs also has a required start-up commitment of jumpsquat plus fair startup. That's at least 15 frames, I forget exactly how long fair takes to hit tho. And if he wants to space it safely, it needs to hit just before landing, meaning he has to delay the fair, time spent in the air that's vulnerable. If he doesn't, it's way less safe on shield. Running in and approaching against the start-up encourages him to either do retreating aerials or to aerials ASAP out of short hop. Retreating aerials cost him stage space, and early aerials have more punishable end lag. Identify which he's more fond of and you've made progress towards adapting appropriately

 

[Player -0]

I want to see a Ganon be spacing early Bairs and then reverse float to Up Air the run in now.

That would be slick.

 

[Strong Badam]

Currently afflicted by this. What the hell do you do when he just spaces Fairs all day, and any attempt to get in on them is met with either getting hit by them, or the jab that follows?

General strategy against Ganondorf (and any slow character) is to not try to get in on him and let him try to do that to you, and punish him for it. I'm not particularly great at that strategy, but it certainly works on a macro-level.

 

[Bazkip]

That's at least 15 frames, I forget exactly how long fair takes to hit tho.

Hitbox starts frame 14, jump instant fair has it active frame 19.

 

[Shokio]

Why are we even discussing Squirtle when he's not a real character in the first place?

:^)