Tier List Speculation

[CORY]

We're not, we're talking about ganon

 

[Bazkip]

Small turtle, King of Evil, basically the same thing.

 

[Shokio]

We're not, we're talking about ganon

Was referring to the people on the top half of the page.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Why main Squirtle when there's Luigi?

 

[_Chrome]

Why main Luigi when there's characters that aren't Luigi?

 

[Life]

Why main other characters when you could main LASER HAXDASH

 

[PlateProp]

Why are we even discussing Squirtle when he's not a real character in the first place?

:^)

Umbreon Intensifies

 

[Shokio]

Umbreon Intensifies

You caught the reference. 10 points for you good sir.

(For real though Squirtle is a POS)

 

[Deleted member]

if you play a ****ing annoying character and people get annoyed at you, you deserve it. when people ***** about sheik i just agree with them.

 

[DrinkingFood]

if you play a ****ing annoying character and people get annoyed at you, you deserve it. when people ***** about sheik i just agree with them.

This is what I tell GnW mains and Zelda mains and Yoshi mains and (other) ROB mains and Luigi mains and Snake mains and...

It's part of the reason I hardly practice my ROB anymore outside of tourney, I just want to have a more fun character I can play at tourney-threat level
but instead I end up in this endless cycle of "I just wanna tryhard THIS tourney, eventually when I can go to more tournaments I'll experiment with my secondaries" and never actually get good matchup exp
now I have a bunch of meh tier secondaries from practicing against meh tier players on netplay, and only ROB has top level exp because he's the only character I trust I can perform with at that level
quick, somebody good move to Anacoco, LA so we can just grind for hours a day

 

[_Chrome]

Can we all agree that Luigi is the most annoying character? Or maybe Wario or ICs, but for me Luigi takes the cake and eats it too.

 

[Deleted member]

luigi is mostly annoying because he forces you to space your follows well or you'll eat disrespect nair.

squirtle is annoyin on every front because neutral vs him, the punish game, negating his positional advantage all suck, and he has moves with arbitrary gayness stapled onto them for no particular reason (looking at you, armored side b that is also an aerial kill move). huge swaths of the character are completely non-interactive like his recovery or dtilt on block. fun fact, in PSA i made squirtle bigger to match pikachu and jigglypuff and he looks HUGE despite still being one of the smallest characters in the game after that fix. but then squirtle is super light and randomly dies at like 60 sometimes, so hes both annoying to play against but also to play as, and in the end hes just annoying. easily one of the worst designs in any game ever.

 

[PlateProp]

luigi is mostly annoying because he forces you to space your follows well or you'll eat disrespect nair.

squirtle is annoyin on every front because neutral vs him, the punish game, negating his positional advantage all suck, and he has moves with arbitrary gayness stapled onto them for no particular reason (looking at you, armored side b that is also an aerial kill move). huge swaths of the character are completely non-interactive like his recovery or dtilt on block. fun fact, in PSA i made squirtle bigger to match pikachu and jigglypuff and he looks HUGE despite still being one of the smallest characters in the game after that fix. but then squirtle is super light and randomly dies at like 60 sometimes, so hes both annoying to play against but also to play as, and in the end hes just annoying. easily one of the worst designs in any game ever.

Umbreon logic: Ignore all counterplay things told to you cause you'd rather keep your ammunition to rage, but it's still okay since you dont really play the game anyways

 

[Boiko]

Squirtle is a generally mediocre character. If one takes the time to learn the counterplay against him, he folds pretty easily.

Edit: And for what it's worth, I think his design is unique and generally fun. "Annoying" is subjective, but whatevz.

 

[KinGly]

This is what I tell GnW mains and Zelda mains and Yoshi mains and (other) ROB mains and Luigi mains and Snake mains and...

It's part of the reason I hardly practice my ROB anymore outside of tourney, I just want to have a more fun character I can play at tourney-threat level
but instead I end up in this endless cycle of "I just wanna tryhard THIS tourney, eventually when I can go to more tournaments I'll experiment with my secondaries" and never actually get good matchup exp
now I have a bunch of meh tier secondaries from practicing against meh tier players on netplay, and only ROB has top level exp because he's the only character I trust I can perform with at that level
quick, somebody good move to Anacoco, LA so we can just grind for hours a day

I thought your wolf was alright when it beat me :'(

 

[G13_Flux]

what relevant MUs does squirtle even do well in?

 

[didds]

Depends who you're asking, there's probably a lot of disagreement on his mus and general tier position. Basically everything is winnable with him though, I just don't think he's really a counter pick kind of character. I can't really think of a matchup where there's not a stronger counter pick to pick from, but at the same time he doesn't seem to get absolutely bodies by anyone. Definitely gets beat but nothing like dedede ivy or bowser falcon

 

[eideeiit]

Expand a tad on "relevant MUs".

But I think he may do OK vs Diddy, since he has bubble, a Ctilt and combos him well. (methinks, I suck, etc...) Too bad he's still too much of an enigma to say anything for even semi-sure.

 

[Boiko]

Fox absolutely destroys Squirtle at the top level. IC's give him an incredibly difficult time as well.

 

[JesteRace]

Squirtle poops on Sheik, but Sheik can just down B into a character that poops on Squirtle because why is that a thing again?

 

[prem]

From what i understand Squirtle Zelda is like 7-3 in squirtles favor (says my friend who mains zelda) because you literally cannot touch squirtle, hes incredibly hard to LK, naryuus loses to side b, you can never grab him, dins does nothing and what not. Provided he hasnt played that matchup much but basically every zelda main agrees with him so theres that.

 

[didds]

id argue that we've never seen the fox:squirtle matchup at top level. I think it's definitely a losing mu (pretty solidly losing), but I'm hesitant to say he gets absolutely destroyed. It's a much harder to play mu relative to what fox has to do against squirtle, but it's definitely winnable. It requires some super sheik-esque play though. Can't miss the easy gimps and edgeguards and he needs to make his tech chases count, in addition to making full use of his movement so squirtle doesn't get pinned down.

Neutral is in fox's favor, but can seem extra difficult just because of how straightforward and fluid fox's kit is in conjunction with its self. squirtle has incredibly good moves, but with incredibly niche uses. Fox nair can cover a range of uses while squirtle may need a mix of shffls and spaced tilts to reach that same level of coverage. It's a very hard mu mentally.

The punish game is also more consistent on fox's end. Squirtle dies early and has easy uthrow>uair physics, and has some of the worst techs in the game, though he lucks out and avoids a lot of missed tech punishes just from being slippery. Squirtles punishes are less guaranteed and require a decent read to build damage and get things started. He also doesn't have much that outright kills and is guaranteed so he relies on edgeguards to end stocks.

The mu is just a lot of hard work. It's definitely losing. But not in the traditional pika peach mu in melee where you're at a loss and wonder what the hell pikachu can even do. More of a melee sheik fox where it's hard and you know your opponents tools are better and more overwhelming, but if you keep cool and play smart there are still plenty of holes ready to be exploited.





As for icies, i don't really know jack.

Edit: fox probably is one of, if not the worse mu he has though

Edit2: please don't argue or disagree, I'm probably wrong and wrote without being willing to answer any replies

Edit3: nvm idc

 

[D e l t a]

Can we all agree that Luigi is the most annoying character? Or maybe Wario or ICs, but for me Luigi takes the cake and eats it too.

Clearly none of you have had to deal with a good Yoshi player. Luigi Nair is annoying? Try hitting Yoshi then realizing he ate the last 10 hits you threw out and is able to Nair you right back without getting sent anywhere. Or dealing with his crouch cancel until he gets over 50%.

 

[Deleted member]

Squirtle is a generally mediocre character. If one takes the time to learn the counterplay against him, he folds pretty easily.

Edit: And for what it's worth, I think his design is unique and generally fun. "Annoying" is subjective, but whatevz.

i'm not arguing that the character good, i'm arguing that his design is stupid- if anything its equally obnoxious that the character still sucks despite those qualities. just because something has counterplay doesnt mean its good acceptable design. we've had countless examples of this.

 

[Boiko]

i'm not arguing that the character good, i'm arguing that his design is stupid- if anything its equally obnoxious that the character still sucks despite those qualities. just because something has counterplay doesnt mean its good acceptable design. we've had countless examples of this.

And I'm saying that I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with his design. How can you qualify a statement like that? It doesn't break the rules of smash. Squirtle still suffers from positional disadvantages. All of his "quirks" are predictable and have a reasonable degree of counterplay. What's so bad about it? He's small and slippery? Doesn't matter to me.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

On Zelda:

In my mind, I can't figure out why Zelda would dominate in this mu. Nobody can for sure, I suck, etc. But Squirtle kills off the top extremely well, is small and hard to lightning kick, and Squirtle is fast. Oh, and Side b can (laughbly) go through Fsmash's multi hits. Zelda's options against early up b (from the edge, that is, onstage is normal) seems lackluster compared to most. Can you up b to the ledge from the stage/platform? That would (maybe?) let you stay on stage till its clearly a sweet spot and grab ledge (and do an up b down if they early up b if its to slow). Otherwise Zelda can grab ledge early, but invincible aerials all seem lackluster and onstage punishes are medicore (grab bthrow seems the best, though small stages open up ledge hop LK).

Whoever compared Squirtle to Sheik in the Fox mu and general thoughts:

Squirtle is a lot quicker. Raw speed is similar, but rar and hyrdroplane options give Squirtle some threatening options where Sheik doesn't. For one, I figure the range which lasers are safe is probably a lot further (read, less useless). Not a consistent thing, but the threat of it seems relevant and helpful. Down throw is awesome because it forces them in a bad situation (DI up and in, free dtilt or stacked tech chase, no DI/DI down and away, gimps). Like Sheik does with her throws, but Squirtle's does 14%.

Boiko
Can you share what leads you Icies doing well vs Squirtle? We actually had a discussion on this in our Slack recently and I am curious what others think about it.

 

[Kapapanerp]

I have a hard time believing that Zelda beats Squirtle. I have 0 experience in the MU, but just going off their attributes it seems like Zelda would have a hard time keeping Squirtle from getting in, and Squirtle has one of the best kill setups vs floaties (being c-tilt u-smash).

 

[Soft Serve]

And I'm saying that I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with his design. How can you qualify a statement like that? It doesn't break the rules of smash. Squirtle still suffers from positional disadvantages. All of his "quirks" are predictable and have a reasonable degree of counterplay. What's so bad about it? He's small and slippery? Doesn't matter to me.

but Boiko, smashes shouldn't combo

 

[PlateProp]

but Boiko, smashes shouldn't combo

Guess that's why dsmash got killed in 3.6

 

[Setton]

Squirtle does have a good Zelda MU, although I would argue it isn't huge. He also beats Sheik, Kirby, ZSS, Ike, and a few others I don't know as well.

Also sure there are annoying characters and saying they're dumb is fine, but people shouldn't feel bad because of what characters they have fun playing, yet people tend to act like they should, non-jokingly, too often

 

[Farquaad]

Zelda played to her full potential probably does decent against Squirtle. I'd be willing to bet the matchup is even or just barely in Squirtle's favor either way. For the record, against his up B, she can hold ledge, drop for a frame,and use Farore's Wind to return to ledge and knock him away with little risk to herself, as she has ledge invincibility when her hitboxes aren't out and disjointed hitboxes of her own that knock at a great angle the rest of the time. Most Zeldas don't use it as a ledge guard but it's a pretty stellar option. If you watch Somedutch you'll see him do it occasionally.

 

[dirtboy345]

When Zhime and I would netplay we agreed that the MU was slight Squirtle favor, but not by all that much. Other than him, every single Zelda I play with relentless ******* on how the MU is unwinnalbe, though none are obviously even close to Zhime. As far as "relevant MUs" that Squirtle wins, from using the PMU list he beats Diddy, Sheik, Lucario. Goes like even with Falcon and Wolf

 

[didds]

When Zhime and I would netplay we agreed that the MU was slight Squirtle favor, but not by all that much. Other than him, every single Zelda I play with relentless ******* on how the MU is unwinnalbe, though none are obviously even close to Zhime. As far as "relevant MUs" that Squirtle wins, from using the PMU list he beats Diddy, Sheik, Lucario. Goes like even with Falcon and Wolf

Any idea on how he does against rob? It's not one I have experience in, seems even enough to me tho I usually lean towards more evenish opinions to begin with

 

[Xykness]

Luigi is the most annoying character... but gosh do I enjoy every second of it.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Luigi is the most annoying character... but gosh do I enjoy every second of it.

I was just about to say, my character might annoy everyone, but I sure as hell love playing as him.

 

[JesteRace]

I play Luigi AND Link, and I subsist mostly on sodium and water.

 

[Kapapanerp]

I play Luigi AND Link, and I subsist mostly on sodium and water.

Add Zelda and you might become the most hated person on the planet.

 

[Deleted member]

well i'm glad everyone has more or less decided that X characters are annoying.

**** snake

 

[didds]

it would be cool if squirtle got yoshis double jump

 

[MLGF]

well i'm glad everyone has more or less decided that X characters are annoying.

**** snake

PMDT shouldn't have let someone who thinks Fox is mid tier balance Snake lmao.
Hope you're ready for the most annoying games of your life