Tier List Speculation

[Avro-Arrow]

. If the character is dumb go use them and win.

Doesn't really work out like that. I'm not going to use a character whose mechanics I think is unfun. Doesn't feel like I'm playing the same game. It's about winning, but also about having fun. Much more about the latter. Not saying winning isn't fun but it has to be on your own terms.

[QUOTE="Boiko, post: 20775050, member: 188146"]You have to deal with it anyway, so why complain?[/QUOTE]
We complain simply because it's not fun to play against. It doesn't mean we have to quit the game or anything ridiculous like that, it just means we don't like certain aspects of the game. And it also doesn't mean we just go autopilot and run into the same WD jabs and combo break nairs and DI in on all of Luigi's hits.There are a lot of players who do mindlessly complain but I'm sure that's not really any of us here.

For the record, although I said I won't use a character I think is poorly designed/unfun, I find Luigi fun to play around with. Lol. Guess that makes me a hypocrite, regardless of the fact that I don't think I'm ever going to seriously play the character. Feels busted; I can be wherever I want when I want and my moves have "priority" AKA beat out a lot of moves because of hitboxes (although they do IIRC have good priority since the do high damage).

bang bang

 

[Boiko]

Annoying is a subjective word and not every person is going to agree with what they think is or is not annoying.

 

[_Chrome]

I think a majority of people believe Luigi and friends are annoying. To be extra PC, everyone is entitled to their opinion, blah, blah, blah.

 

[Ningildo]

We complain simply because it's not fun to play against. It doesn't mean we have to quit the game or anything ridiculous like that, it just means we don't like certain aspects of the game. And it also doesn't mean we just go autopilot and run into the same WD jabs and combo break nairs and DI in on all of Luigi's hits.There are a lot of players who do mindlessly complain but I'm sure that's not really any of us here.

Yeah, but time spent complaining about Sheik throw mixups, Luigi things, Snake things, GaW being broken etc. could've been spent improving play, reviewing your own play, discuss possible counterplay to seemingly broken things...

I mean, you have a right to complain, but it just seems so...pointless, other than showing your annoyance/salt, which doesn't really help anyone trying to get better or looking for discussion.

 

[_Chrome]

I for one can't be all business all of the time, especially when I don't have the time to play pretty much ever (which is why I make quick posts here). Also, pretty much everyone discussion on here becomes redundant at a point (re: the last 1044 pages have seen the same arguments about Fox since forever). In actuality, the character specific threads and doing things yourself are way more efficient for development than this thread has ever been. This thread is basically just a discussion about character viability, but that's too macro, general and unfocused for someone of low or intermediate level to get much better, save a few good posts. It's really only good for people who want to discuss the game (in its theoretical and applied forms), which is why we get lead off-topic and begin talking about annoyance-factor and the like (because we're all dumb randos on the internet), which is still somewhat on topic until a new and better topic is introduced.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I think a majority of people believe Luigi and friends are annoying. To be extra PC, everyone is entitled to their opinion, blah, blah, blah.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

It's 2016, PM development is done, and people are still complaining about mid to high tier characters? did I step into a shoryuken article comment section?

 

[_Chrome]

I said most people for a reason: almost all of the people I have spoken to who play at the competitive level greatly dislike playing against Luigi: in Melee and in PM. I wouldn't even call if hyperbole: if I asked around my scene with a survey, I predict most people would dislike Luigi. I realize it's only one scene so it's not 100% representative, blah, blah, blah. And yes, people will still complain about a disliked character. People here in Ottawa (for example; if may not be the same everywhere so let me add this useless disclaimer/s) complain about the snow and weather all the time: no one can change it (inb4 an internet rando comes by and goes on a rant about global warming).

Read SB's post. I don't care if he isn't broken, he's annoying. Endo story.

BTW I'm not doing the survey. I have better things to do, which incidentally includes complaining about Luigi sometimes because it does come up and requires little time investment, unlike designing and completing s survey, etc.

"bang bang"

 

[DMG]

tl:dr

No more patches, get off Smashboards and Git Gud

 

[Xykness]

A while back, the majority of my scene literally hated playing me (I've had players just give me the win because they didn't wanna play the match) and I'd be so nervous because people would get really salty mid-match....

HOWEVER

Since then the majority of the scene actually enjoys playing me... its probably due to a lot of them beginning to understand the MU and I've had great discussions with some of them about ways their character can do cool things against Luigi. I've heard quite a number of members from our scene say that the "Luigi MU is fun (but still hard)!" There really is only one player that I can think of that still hates playing against me simply because of Luigi lol.

Again this obviously doesn't happen to everyone and everyone is entitled to their own opinion blah blah blah. I honestly don't care if someone finds a character annoying, they still gotta learn how to beat it. I've heard players say that X character used to be annoying until they learned how to combat it or until they learned different things in the MU.

Who knows, maybe you will all love Luigi someday...

yeah... like that'll ever happen LOL

Bang bang

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

in my personal experience people complain more about sheik than about luigi but hey whatever floats your boat

actually if a character is any good at all they probably have some trait that people can/will/do complain about

edit: I forgot the

bang bang

 

[DMG]

Once CF wins a PM National, the world won't be the same

 

[D e l t a]

I like playing against Luigi because the characters I use have an Upsmash that kills Luigi around 70-90% and/or have a ground game that stops Luigi's constant wavedashing

 

[Xykness]

I like playing against Luigi because the characters I use have an Upsmash that kills Luigi around 70-90% and/or have a ground game that stops Luigi's constant wavedashing

Lucas is hard, man. Hyperflame gave me a royal beating. Very difficult to deal with.

 

[Soft Serve]

Just play diddy

 

[Denjinpachi]

Olimar, am I right? 8)

 

[Strong Badam]

Annoying is a subjective word and not every person is going to agree with what they think is or is not annoying.

"In my opinion" is understood to be at the end of just about any statement here that isn't factual frame data or broad descriptions. When someone says "Your character is annoying" they mean "Your character is annoying me," that's easy to get from context. Calling something subjective or arbitrary brings nothing to the table and doesn't help communicate/share ideas, nor does it serve as an effective retort; it's just stating the obvious.

 

[D e l t a]

not rekt [ ]
rekt [x]

....

Back to some slightly more intelligent conversation. Softie made me think of this: How should Diddy approach neutral and what are good counter options to those approaches?

 

[shairn]

When you play the banana, you have to occupy space, but make sure your monkey stays close behind so he can cover if the opponent gets a grab or gets too close with his dd.

 

[Boiko]

Is "annoyingness" really a valid discussion for tier list speculation?

 

[_Chrome]

No, not really. So let's stop talking about it since it bothers people who want good discussion and people who realize they have annoying characters. I think everyone here can figure out whether they're one, the other, or both.

 

[Ningildo]

Let's talk Oli.

Any weaknesses you think he has? Strengths? Winning MUs? Losing MUs? Good stages?

Also, regarding Diddy neutral, Softie probably has an essay for that somewhere. All I can think off is using GT to extend your punish range and uh, basic DD bait and punish?

 

[Shokio]

Let's talk Oli.

Any weaknesses you think he has? Strengths? Winning MUs? Losing MUs? Good stages?

Also, regarding Diddy neutral, Softie probably has an essay for that somewhere. All I can think off is using GT to extend your punish range and uh, basic DD bait and punish?

His recovery and rolls are balls. His ability to rack up damage is unprecedented and his disjoints are amazing. Also, Purples turn him into Ganon.

Oli boides Yoshi, Bowser, DK, Falcon, Kirby, Luigi
Loses to Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Roy

Goes fairly even/does well enough against Toon Link, Diddy, ROB, and Wario.

Oli works pretty much anywhere really. I still haven't found a personal stage preference for him.

And not to get back on the topic but I just want to throw this in in regards to the prior convo: I feel that most people who say the likes of Squirtle, Snake, Zelda, etc "aren't annoying" or "it's subjective" just say that so they can fit some extent of social justice warrior-ism. Or it's an attempt to look cool or act as if they have a handle on something thing that most people don't. Or both. Nah bruh, F that, Squirtle is annoying and people need to stop fronting lol. It is what it is man.

And just to clarify, someone saying a character is annoying isn't saying that a character is GOOD, so please stop with the viability defense. Squirtle is like the 2nd most annoying char to fight for me personally (only behind G&W), but I've actually never dropped a single set to one. (Though 4rcys did come very close)

 

[DMG]

Go to BR 20 tomorrow and play me with Oli Shokio. I crave Oli knowledge

 

[eideeiit]

Oh boy, finally a MU where Falcon may not win because of DD and knee?!

 

[DMG]

Oh boy, finally a MU where Falcon may not win because of DD and knee?!

New title of a Best Seller Fictional Book

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Flame Breath "could" work, but the way it works assumes you've already cornered your opponent and won neutral in a way that forced them to retreat and between sluggishness and a large hurtbox to chug around, that's far easier said than done. All the other tools lose to good DDing.

Having great punishes and edgeguards means jack if you can't win neutral consistently to get to them. This is something that has been established by Fox being top tier despite supposedly getting 0 to death'd by everyone and Diddy being top tier despite not having nowhere near the devastating punishes that some characters can dish out.

flame breath works with neutral when you short hop and use air mobility with it. I have been beating many bad match ups who think they can just bait out bowser. Its not about neutral with bowser, its about not falling for the baits and slowly push him into a corner by invalidating their DD tools and neutral game. Armour beats things and bowser knocks people towards the ledge at small %.

I swear im not trolling, i just been expanding his meta as much as possible (its not changing, so now i focused my energy on making bowser better). You have to play lame and using like 4 moves (fire, command grab/throws, up B, and spacing tools) but it works against the majority of characters with the right timing and knowledge of what to do next.

I definitely beat the **** out of Squirtle/Zelda/Luigi/Falcon/DDD/Snake/Falco/whatever players just about every time I play them, doesn't make their character any less annoying. I do not have any problem beating them, that usually isn't the issue people have when they bring up their obnoxiousness. If someone is genuinely bad and is complaining about a character because they lose, they probably do so about several characters and not a select few like Umbreon does. If you can beat it, it means it's not broken (which no one has argued those characters to be in this conversation), it has nothing to do with whether or not the character is annoying.

I also find characters annoying based on their gameplay and not based on their matchup with my character. For example I don't really mind Toon Link even though that's my worst matchup by far. His gameplay is very "normal" even if he has a strong advantage, he doesn't break any rules or have really stupid extremes that result in skewed gameplay.

You could always change this to where character's are less "annoying and dont break as many rules". Trust me i think Everything into knee is silly. And zelda is really annoying with throws into any arieal. Falco doesn't really bother me although his touch from 0% to 80% combos off a lazer is slightly annoying.

Yeah, but time spent complaining about Sheik throw mixups, Luigi things, Snake things, GaW being broken etc. could've been spent improving play, reviewing your own play, discuss possible counterplay to seemingly broken things...

I mean, you have a right to complain, but it just seems so...pointless, other than showing your annoyance/salt, which doesn't really help anyone trying to get better or looking for discussion.

Question, how do we feel about Shiek players looking at your controllers to screw up your DI? I noticed someone watching my controller a bit ago, what am i suppose to do exactly? Just react to shieks 16 frames of reactable throwing animation?

 

[DMG]

It was 1 game only but I clutched out Game 3 vs Shokio Oli. I am evolving the Oli MU, look out all [3] Oli players! Forgot to get some friendlies in tho, more exp required for vegetable beat down

In other news. I get beat up on DFW stream. Think only had 1 winning set on stream and was teams. Gonna drink the feels down with Waffle House Sweet Tea

 

[Player -0]

And zelda is really annoying with throws into any arieal

I see no problem with this.

 

[Deleted member]

Is "annoyingness" really a valid discussion for tier list speculation?

absolutely, this thread is basically just talking about the characters in the game. if a significant ratio of the community dislikes a character for whatever reason, it's bound to be noteworthy. tons of people hate fox and squirtle, and for 100% different reasons.

 

[G13_Flux]

Does a character being annoying have any significant connection to their placement on the tier list, or are the unrelated attributes. I think the answer to that question determines whether or not its valid discussion.

imo, since annoyingness is too subjective, and relatively unrelated to tier position, its really a discussion that should be left for social.

Im no moderater though

 

[KinGly]

Does a character being annoying have any significant connection to their placement on the tier list, or are the unrelated attributes. I think the answer to that question determines whether or not its valid discussion.

imo, since annoyingness is too subjective, and relatively unrelated to tier position, its really a discussion that should be left for social.

Im no moderater though

Isn't the annoying thing a character has usually pretty good though? Like, people complain about Luigi's whatever (let's go with floatiness+nair), but it's a pretty good attribute that's somewhat difficult to deal with, thus making it annoying.

It seems like everyone is talking about annoyingness as just being difficult to deal with, such as squirrel being slippery when wet, or luigi something or another, or falcon dd knee (haven't been keeping up with what people are complaining about really, but those are my guesses). Thing is though, if something is difficult to deal with, that's usually because it's pretty good.

So annoyingness = difficulty in countering = goodness = some relation to tier list placement imo.

 

[drakargx]

Does a character being annoying have any significant connection to their placement on the tier list, or are the unrelated attributes. I think the answer to that question determines whether or not its valid discussion.

imo, since annoyingness is too subjective, and relatively unrelated to tier position, its really a discussion that should be left for social.

Im no moderater though

Problem is the social thread is more like an offtopic board of its own, it goes over many different topics and really isn't that related to PM other than the people in there probably play PM

This thread is the closest we have to a general game/character discussion thread. Even though it's name hints at it being more focused towards tier lists it ends up being a general, serious discussion of the game most of the time, with some tier lists here and there

Also although "annoying" is a subjective term it is usually derived from mostly objective facts(e.g Luigi being annoying because of his nair breaking followups, among other stuff being posted here) and therefore I think that, if we were to reduce this thread's scope to something more in line with its name, then it would be valid discussion to bring up whether or not a character is annoying.

 

[Strong Badam]

I probably would have curbed the annoyingness discussion if there was, alternatively, some in-depth discussion on tiers/character viability being had that was disrupted by that discussion. No one was really trying to discuss anything else, so it would have seemed rather forced IMO. Tangents are fine as long as they're short-lived; if the thread were to remain as is for several pages, then I'd suggest it to splinter off into its own thread.

 

[Player -0]

The way I see it is the Tier List thread is a social thread that actually talks about the games (sometimes).

Social is for dank may mays.

Either way it sucks getting terrible DI because you were adjusting your thumb position and trying to move your control stick but were half a second too late.

 

[Ripple]

I've discovered that lucas has the possibility the 0-death every character in game regardless of DI. only possible way to escape is SDI.

Magnet is so busted

expect Gfys soon

 

[DMG]

I'll literally face mash my controller if it makes Lucas lose. Don't speak of such terrible things Ripple!

 

[Strong Badam]

Uhh is that supposed to be news? We've known that for years, all the lucas players just haven't reached anywhere near the peak of his potential yet.

 

[Ripple]

its been known that lucas can true combo the entire cast from 0-death without the opponent having any opportunity to shield or tech? and it NOT just being dair?

 

[xquqx]

I mean, I thought that was always Lucas's hypothetical ceiling with DJC shenanigans. If you can demonstrate it though you've probably figured out something new and exciting.

 

[Player -0]

idk. I'm hype for more gfys. They're always cool to look at.