Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

I thought that stale moves made a DJC dair "infinite" not real after however many iterations but I guess I was mistaken after more testing.

so I guess I just made a more complicated way

 

[DrinkingFood]

Of course Lucas demolishes characters any time he touches them. That's what happens when you have a poke that converts on hit off the same wavedash/waveland/doublejump backwards that makes it safe on whiff. Like for any of the other spacies, run in shine wavedash forward is required to convert heavily off shine in most situations, while that's much more vulnerable compared to run in shine wavedash back. For Lucas, wavedash back both converts off his disjointed shine AND is safe. Can't punish it OoS, very hard to punish on whiff, it's such a low risk high reward option for him in neutral. Pretty obnoxious to deal with tbh, fortunately he eats punishment pretty hard in return else he'd be a much more stupid character.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

how many frames of lag does each party go through if someone powershields an aerial
I assume that the person who did the aerial goes through lag as normal, but what about the person doing the shielding?
I know that powershields have minimal/no endlag, but I don't actually know how much

I'm largely just wondering this as a sort of logical extension of using powersheilding as a sort-of-kind-of-3s-esque parry system

also because this is one of the things that I saw thunderzreign doing a lot to great benefit, here's one specific example even though there's a bunch more in this tourney

 

[Ripple]

yes, I also saw Thunderz shield grab a lot.

 

[DrinkingFood]

how many frames of lag does each party go through if someone powershields an aerial
I assume that the person who did the aerial goes through lag as normal, but what about the person doing the shielding?
I know that powershields have minimal/no endlag, but I don't actually know how much

I'm largely just wondering this as a sort of logical extension of using powersheilding as a sort-of-kind-of-3s-esque parry system

also because this is one of the things that I saw thunderzreign doing a lot to great benefit, here's one specific example even though there's a bunch more in this tourney

iirc the differences are increased hitlag, reduced pushback, and no shield release time on powershields, with normal shield stun.

 

[Player -0]

Both shieldstun and shield lag is the same for atttacker and defender. Only difference is if there are hitlag multipliers which then only affects attacker.

Perfect shield only makes it so you can do anything without the shield release lag. So perfect shield grab and shield grab are essentially the same thing.

It's a tad different in Smash 4 with that one update but whatever.


I might be wrong.

Edit - I thought only Brawl/Smash 4 perfect shields made you not move. I remember seeing a video in which perfect shields sent you farther than the "hard" shields in Melee. Hard shields are characterized by less push back though so idk.

 

[PMQasar]

I

Discuss characters' potentials and how they stack up against the rest of the cast here.

Feel free to discuss why your tier list makes sense, and what people are likely missing in theirs.

This stuff below is out of date.

Spoiler

If we get some people putting out their tier lists, I'll average them (or someone else can) and I'll put them up on the OP.

Please keep in mind the tier list averages do not reflect an actual official tier list.

Hopefully I don't get shot for making this thread, lol.

-If you give me your own personal tier list, I will place it into my Excel Spreadsheet with your username and list of 33 characters in order. I'm going to ignore Top/High/etc. and just put it into numerical order.
-This means you do not have to edit your original tier list post. Just re-post it and I will know based on your username whether I am making a new column or just updating an old one.
-I am ignoring Shielda as a character despite her utility. No arguments on this. ^_^
-Putting SHeLL's idea into action. Poll will run for a bit as to what the top 8 characters are. ~Can't make polls

As of 1/24/13:

Average From 15 Tier Lists
Top
1. Fox

2. Falco

3. Sheik

4. Marth

5. Peach

6. Mario

High
7. Jigglypuff

8. Lucario

9. Ike

10. Diddy

11. Pit

12. Wolf

13. Falcon

Mid
14. Link

15. Snake

16. Ganondorf

17. Sonic

18. Pikachu

19. Lucas

20. Squirtle

Low
21. Zelda

22. DonkeyKong

23. Bowser

24. Zero SuitSamus

25. Wario

26. Ivysaur

27. Toon Link

Bottom
28. Charizard

29. DeDeDe

30. R.O.B.

31. Ness

32. Luigi

33. Game and Watch

Point totals:

Spoiler

Fox 21
Falco 32
Sheik 92
Marth 130
Peach 132
Mario 139
Puff 142
Lucario 169
Ike 200
Diddy 217
Pit 220
Wolf 269
Falcon 278
Link 298
Snake 298
Ganondorf 310
Sonic 329
Pikachu 345
Lucas 356
Squirtle 379
Zelda 380
DK 396
Bowser 398
ZSS 409
Wario 412
Ivysaur 418
TL 421
Zard 431
D3 460
ROB 472
Ness 485
Luigi 491
GnW 567

As of 1/3/13:

Spoiler

Credit to MCO for averaging.

I feel like everyone sucks too much on Melees former top tier *******, Jigglypuff is still a low tier with three good moves; bair, rest and up throw
Hes a low tier since melee in PM he wasnt even buffed

 

[Player -0]

Puff is low Tier since Melee? Okay.

Also 0 kudos to the back throw or Fair either, gross.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Both shieldstun and shield lag is the same for atttacker and defender. Only difference is if there are hitlag multipliers which then only affects attacker.

Perfect shield only makes it so you can do anything without the shield release lag. So perfect shield grab and shield grab are essentially the same thing.

If perfect shield adds more hitlag for the attacker, than perfect shield->grab is definitely more guaranteed then shield->grab.

 

[Oracle]

Iirc strong bad said something about perfect shields having the same shieldstun but you can cancel it into stuff like attacks instead of having to jump idk i woke up at 4am

 

[Player -0]

If perfect shield adds more hitlag for the attacker, than perfect shield->grab is definitely more guaranteed then shield->grab.

I feel like I could test this in debug but Wii poofed on me.

 

[Strong Badam]

Perfect shield doesn't induce different hitlag or shieldstun. You have slightly less shield pushback and you can interrupt the shield release action with grounded A or B moves.

 

[PMQasar]

Puff is low Tier since Melee? Okay.

Also 0 kudos to the back throw or Fair either, gross.

Hes too light OF a character and edge guarding him is pretty easy, hes that the one trick Pony from melee that only became a "Top" tier because OF HBox

 

[nimigoha]

Hes too light OF a character and edge guarding him is pretty easy, hes that the one trick Pony from melee that only became a "Top" tier because OF HBox

lol

 

[_Chrome]

Don't forget Mango PMQasar .

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

so yeah, perfect shielding attacks does act as a sort of parry that can allow you to convert attacks on shield into followups that you otherwise might not have been able to do

 

[redbeanjelly]

Hes too light OF a character and edge guarding him is pretty easy, hes that the one trick Pony from melee that only became a "Top" tier because OF HBox

Also Puff is a grill

 

[Kipcom]

Of course Lucas demolishes characters any time he touches them. That's what happens when you have a poke that converts on hit off the same wavedash/waveland/doublejump backwards that makes it safe on whiff. Like for any of the other spacies, run in shine wavedash forward is required to convert heavily off shine in most situations, while that's much more vulnerable compared to run in shine wavedash back. For Lucas, wavedash back both converts off his disjointed shine AND is safe. Can't punish it OoS, very hard to punish on whiff, it's such a low risk high reward option for him in neutral. Pretty obnoxious to deal with tbh, fortunately he eats punishment pretty hard in return else he'd be a much more stupid character.

We could always just nerf him.


I'm sorry.

 

[D e l t a]

To shed some light on Lucas...

Combos -> death work despite SDI in some cases. Myself, Hyper, Kip and a few other Lucas' have a good combo game, but the best we can collectively do at the moment is 0-80 guaranteed with the extra hits being DI reads / bad decisions on an opponent's part. Lucas is still roughly 3 years away from being anywhere near fully optimized IMO.

==

Electric hits: Nair, Dair, magnet, sweetspot Fair, and jab, are all susceptible to SDI in order of easiest to hardest. ASDI down works on most of his moves at low %'s, but can't always be punished: magnet, late hit Fair, Dair. Nair, early Fair, and jab all easily punished by simply holding down at low % as long as your character has a move that comes out sub-frame 10 or so (this includes ASDI down / CC grab for most characters).

==

Looking at magnet from a linear, single sighted perspective, it's an amazing neutral poke tool. Yeah it's safe on shield when not staled and you perfectly WD out of. It can start combos if the opponent doesn't DI properly and lead into finishers quite well. HOWEVER, the disjoint range is quite small and the hitbox to send an opponent backwards is inside of the magnet, whereas the outside hitbox does next to nothing. You also have to do the aerial magnet to be +4 on shield; otherwise, Lucas loses 4 frames due to jump squat and magnet becomes +0 on shield. Dash -> magnet takes a decent amount of startup, and you have to consider getting hit out of DJC magnet results in a lost jump. Lucas / many characters offstage without a jump are not amazing

Magnet is a low-medium risk / high reward. It's not a free win move similar to how Falco has to work at getting a Dair / shine on people to start most combos.

==

Additionally against PKF, just hold down and take the 3-5% damage, clank the hit with a jab or some smash attack, or run up -> shield and either punish OoS or laugh as the Lucas gets hit by a perfect shielded PKF. PKF only leads to combos on aerial opponents who can't ASDI down at higher %'s, or against people who don't CC the projectile.

 

[Kipcom]

+0 on shield is still pretty good for Lucas tbh. Perfect Multi magnets are safe on shield (assuming the opponent doesn't have some kind of invincible/intangible Up-B OoS) and his wavedash is amazing enough to cover any buffered roll options.

Dash -> Magnet does have some annoying startup due to not being able to crouch for the down b during the dash, but that's usually made irrelevant with SH Mag when you're at such a close distance anyway.

Though as you said, the disjoint/hitbox for magnet is honestly not huge. Most characters have moves that will either trade or outrange magnet, and as long as you interrupt Lucas while he's trying to press buttons in your face, then you've done a good job (This is something I recently learned). It's kind of like when a Falco gets his laser powershielded back at him and they have that awkward pause for about a second.


As for PKF, I've said this plenty of times, but as a hit confirm it's godlike. However, as a projectile, it's decent/average, but honestly shouldn't be the entirety of his neutral in any Lucas' playstyle imo.

 

[Deleted member]

wow what a bunch of ****ing nerds

**** you strongbad for infracting me

 

[Strong Badam]

wow what a bunch of ****ing nerds

**** you strongbad for infracting me

And let that be a lesson to all of you would-be spammers. I don't mess around!!

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

And let that be a lesson to all of you would-be spammers. I don't mess around!!

*unsheathes fedora* not if i can help it

Spoiler

caca nose

 

[Ningildo]

And let that be a lesson to all of you would-be spammers. I don't mess around!!

"Except when I enter threads focused on discussion of character tier placings when discussion has died down and join in the "xyz is annoying" circlejerk that does jack to restart discussion"

On a more serious note, supposedly proper (S)DI ruins a lot of Lucas combos. What moves in particular get hit hard by that and in what direction should I (S)DI said moves?

 

[Strong Badam]

Honestly, SDI is very underutilized in this game in general. It's definitely difficult to use well, but it mitigates soo many would-be combos. There's definitely a reason why non-throw combos are often complained about the most by lower and mid level players. The engine and the amount of hitstun PM/Melee have, most combos are "barely" combos in most scenarios, so arbitrarily being able to shift your character in a direction by a significant amount is pretty huge. Getting u-air juggled? SDI up and deal with the stagger instead. Getting combo'd horizontally? Combining trajectory DI and SDI you can become very tricky to combo, even by combo machines like Falco, Falcon, Wolf. Many players of lower levels are focused on macro gameplay (or in other words, "the big picture"): that is, which moves to use in what situations, what moves combo into what, general gameplan. At upper levels of play improving isn't so much what move to use in what situation, but what move to use on what frame and at what spacing. SDI is a micro-level optimization and can be very hard to notice if you aren't looking for it. Just watch about 15 seconds of gameplay here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pvZNEh6uMs#t=8m32s
Dakpo's a really great G&W player and if he was playing all but maybe ~25 (potentially less) players, each of these grabs and the way he executed afterwards would have resulted in a death combo. But using SDI, I'm able to escape and get myself into a staggered scenario. Still disadvantaged and you'll see that the second situation results in me dying, but compared to the alternative, gives me a lot more room to outplay. There are several other instances throughout the set if you'd like to watch it in full where I do this. This is the effect SDI has on combo moves that move you toward your opponent as you hit them, so you can imagine its effect on moves that don't. G&W is a character who I definitely see going down as players learn the nuances of his combo game and how to properly mitigate them.

Well, I guess I went on a bit of a tangent. As it relates to Lucas, making things really tricky in context of which side of Lucas you end up on after a nair or partial dair can make following up with a magnet hard, and SDIing magnet and DJC u-airs really well makes them much less reliable in a general sense, even if they're still obviously good.

 

[nimigoha]

Are you using the dual stick SDI method or just a control stick tap? That was some pretty gnarly SDI.

SDI has slowly been creeping up more in my play. I happen to think it's also loads of fun to do, which leads to my trying it every time I think I'll get hit, and that eventually leads to fewer followups for my opponent.

 

[Strong Badam]

I hold a direction with the C-stick and then smash the control stick in the direction I want to go. On some occasions I use quarter-stick DI. Most moves don't have enough hitlag for the brawl dual-stick DI method to work very well, and I'm also not very accustomed to it, having never played Brawl in a serious capacity.

 

[Shokio]

I hold a direction with the C-stick and then smash the control stick in the direction I want to go. On some occasions I use quarter-stick DI. Most moves don't have enough hitlag for the brawl dual-stick DI method to work very well, and I'm also not very accustomed to it, having never played Brawl in a serious capacity.

I've been dual-sticking this whole time. I've been wondering why sometimes my SDI has been sub-par (my timing is usually on-point), thanks for that info.

 

[nimigoha]

I hold a direction with the C-stick and then smash the control stick in the direction I want to go. On some occasions I use quarter-stick DI. Most moves don't have enough hitlag for the brawl dual-stick DI method to work very well, and I'm also not very accustomed to it, having never played Brawl in a serious capacity.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if you preemptively hold a direction with the C-stick and smash the control stick during hitlag, aren't you only getting the control stick SDI input and then the C-stick ASDI input? I may be mixing up stick priorities between games, but wouldn't it be just as effective to smash and hold the control stick in the direction you want to go? You'd get the SDI input and then the ASDI input.

And again, if I recall correctly, Brawl Dual-stick SDI means that if you hold a Control stick direction and tap (and release) the C-stick during hitlag, you'll get the C-stick SDI input and then the game will read the Control stick for another SDI input on the next frame, then you'll get the Control stick ASDI on top of that.

Like unless I've completely misunderstood the stick priorities, your method is getting you 1 SDI and 1 ASDI, when swapping the sticks that you hold and tap (you hold C and tap control, instead if you held control and tapped C) would give you 2 SDI and 1 ASDI and would only require the Cstick tap to not be on the last frame of hitlag. And if it is, you get 1 SDI and 1 ASDI anyway.

 

[Strong Badam]

And again, if I recall correctly, Brawl Dual-stick SDI means that if you hold a Control stick direction and tap (and release) the C-stick during hitlag, you'll get the C-stick SDI input and then the game will read the Control stick for another SDI input on the next frame, then you'll get the Control stick ASDI on top of that.

That's correct. I've tried both methods and prefer mine. It may technically be worse, but I more consistently succeed with my method.

 

[nimigoha]

Okay cool. I suppose it's partly to do with SDI being such a small pseudo-reactionary window (have to realize you're right about to get hit) so your muscle memory and reaction is better at holding C and tapping Control within the window.

And man, if it gets the job done like against Dakpo in the video, why change?

 

[D e l t a]

and join in the "xyz is annoying" circlejerk

At first I thought that said XYK is annoying...anyway.....

On a more serious note, supposedly proper (S)DI ruins a lot of Lucas combos. What moves in particular get hit hard by that and in what direction should I (S)DI said moves?

So I'm pretty sure I wrote something on this somewhere in here, but I don't feel like diving thru this forum to find it...

General rule of thumb vs Lucas: most moves you can DI behind / into Lucas. So if you're on the left side of the stage and Lucas is on the right side then hits you with a move, (S)DIto the right. Obviously there's some more character dependent rules, but I won't bother to dive into an entire essay on every single character. Scale %'s from floaty to fast faller. I define low % around 0-30 on all characters, mid % from 30-50 on floaties, up to 70% on midweights like Mario / Pika, and high % from 80-110%+ on everyone else. Use this as a frame of reference for below.

I went over the moves most used for combo'ing and ones that should be SDI'd. Here's what I found over a year of playing / studying Lucas' combos:

Spoiler: (S)DI, ASDI, CC, counterplay to Lucas' stuff

Jab 1/Jab 2: ASDI down / CC. Similar to any jab

Ftilt / Fsmash: Survival DI (up and in)

Up Tilt: Haven't found much counterplay to this as it's highly underused. I'd assume up and in.

Down Tilt: Hard (S)DI full out / CC at lower %'s. After Dtilt, it's a mixup between Lucas running in with an attack or going for a grab. Can lead to aerials / magnet so DI away then shield or use a counter attack sub frame 10 or so.

Upsmash: SDI down as much as possible to potentially live longer, survival DI (down and in)

Nair: SDI the opposite way Lucas' momentum is headed (if he's running left, SDI right or if he is doing a rising Nair, SDI down). SDI / ASDI down is best to get out of Nair. If you're close to the ground at low %, you can ASDI down and shield in-between the multi-hit, then punish Lucas OoS. Fairly easy to SDI down / out of.

Fair: There's a few different situations to (S)DI his Fair

Sourspot

• Hard SDI in at low % (roughly under 30%)
  • Useful when Lucas is starting a combo and has lots of horizontal momentum. It's difficult for Lucas to react when you go straight down / in.
• Hard SDI out any %
  • You can escape combos at low % and counter attack with a quick move or shield and avoid the followup unless it's a grab.

Sweetspot

• SDI / DI full out / down until 90% or so.
  • Most times, the sweetspot doesn't kill. There's a 1 frame sweetspot that deals enough knockback to kill, but it's very difficult to be precise with. Typically DI'ing the sweetspot in will lead to getting combo'd again. After 90% or so, that's where Lucas can't followup sweetspot Fair, but can get another hit or two from sourspot Fair.

Dair: SDI hard left or right.

Pretty difficult at first. My training partner SDI's out on reaction and it's extremely difficult landing the 3rd hit unless I exclusively land the 3rd hit only (similar to Fox's Uair in PM).
​

Uair: If Lucas hits you with the front part of his head, S(DI) forward / the direction he's facing. If he hits you near the back of his head, S(DI) behind Lucas to get sent at a weird angle backwards. This will avoid Uair -> Bair followups. It's also great to mix up DI mid-combos and makes combo'ing out of Uair difficult.

Bair: SDI in the spike hitbox (very bottom of Lucas' foot, near the end of the Bair animation). Similar to any true spike, there's a great possibility to get sent into the stage as opposed to being launched into the blast zone. Survival DI (up and in) for every other hit.

Magnet: ASDI down, CC, DI into / behind Lucas

• The first two will put you into a tech situation similar to Fox's shine on most characters. The only counterplay to this is Lucas doing a WD back -> jab reset or catching the opponent not missed tech rolling / getting up after being knocked down. If you miss the tech and still get knocked down, you can do a getup attack and catch Lucas with it 9 times out of 10
• DI behind Lucas leads to way less followups. At high % where Lucas' Upsmash kills, magnet can lead into DACUS most times, but the execution is difficult to consistently perform. If Lucas hits you while he's near the edge of stage, Lucas has 0 followups for Magnet DI'd behind him.

PKF: SDI down after getting hit. CC works against PKF until 150%+ and won't knock you back anywhere. After getting hit by PKF and SDI down / CC PKF, you can shield / counter attack since the move never puts you in tumble / knockdown. ASDI down doesn't do anything against PKF unless you're a fast faller. Must input the SDI as opposed to ASDI.

PKT2: SDI hard in the direction Lucas is moving if you happen to get hit by it.

***This is something almost nobody does and it baffles me. The move lasts forever and is super easy to SDI out of.​

 

[DrinkingFood]

I hold a direction with the C-stick and then smash the control stick in the direction I want to go. On some occasions I use quarter-stick DI. Most moves don't have enough hitlag for the brawl dual-stick DI method to work very well, and I'm also not very accustomed to it, having never played Brawl in a serious capacity.

But holding the cstick only does ASDI
why not quarter circle+smack the c-stick, or just hold control stick+smash cstick

Also, you don't need brawl's extra hitlag to make its dual stick SDI work for you, effectively not only increases your potential SDI but also widens the window. If you input, say, 4 consecutive DI inputs (quarter circle+cstick input) against a move with like 6 frames of hitlag, there's 9 different frames you could start it on and still get at least 1 SDI input, 7 frames you could start it on to get 2 frames of SDI input, 5 frames you could start it on to get at least 3 SDI inputs, and 3 frames where all 4 would come out. Same thing extends to any amount of hitlag, or for even just smashing control stick then C-stick (which does 3 inputs)- no matter what, you have more possible inputs and a wider window.

 

[EmptySky00]

Perfect shield doesn't induce different hitlag or shieldstun. You have slightly less shield pushback and you can interrupt the shield release action with grounded A or B moves.

This information changed my life (maybe). I thought it was like Just Guarding in SCV(Bad game) or whatever in other fighters that negated shield stun. This explains why when I power shielded something it didn't seem like it was any better than normal shield sometimes. I'll alter how I use it based on this. Enlightenment achieved.

Also Puff is a grill

Puff is male because after he ****s he falls asleep.
/obvious

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Bang bang.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Anybody have any idea why I'm finding that I can trigger Wolf's landing animation for his nair without the landing hitbox coming out? It seems to be a very small window. The move is definitely l-canceling not auto-canceling as the flash is clearly visible, but the hitbox is not coming out. I thought landing hitboxes were directly tied to the landing animation? Is this not the case?

 

[Life]

I was pretty sure the landing hitbox was removed?

 

[Player -0]

afaik it wasn't removed

 

[G13_Flux]

But holding the cstick only does ASDI
why not quarter circle+smack the c-stick, or just hold control stick+smash cstick

Also, you don't need brawl's extra hitlag to make its dual stick SDI work for you, effectively not only increases your potential SDI but also widens the window. If you input, say, 4 consecutive DI inputs (quarter circle+cstick input) against a move with like 6 frames of hitlag, there's 9 different frames you could start it on and still get at least 1 SDI input, 7 frames you could start it on to get 2 frames of SDI input, 5 frames you could start it on to get at least 3 SDI inputs, and 3 frames where all 4 would come out. Same thing extends to any amount of hitlag, or for even just smashing control stick then C-stick (which does 3 inputs)- no matter what, you have more possible inputs and a wider window.

For educational purposes, youre saying that doing quarter circle DI in addition to the c stick gives 4 inputs of SDI. Why only 4? arent there 16 directional positions on the control stick that are read? That would make a full quarter circle sweep give about 5 inputs of SDI, then another one for smashing the c stick during it. So 6 total.

If you could tell me why my logic is wrong (if it is) that would be cool.

 

[Soft Serve]

Anybody have any idea why I'm finding that I can trigger Wolf's landing animation for his nair without the landing hitbox coming out? It seems to be a very small window. The move is definitely l-canceling not auto-canceling as the flash is clearly visible, but the hitbox is not coming out. I thought landing hitboxes were directly tied to the landing animation? Is this not the case?

I can't really explain why it does that but can confirm it does happen

Noticed it with the dair iasa nerf in 3.5, wolf can no longer fh dair falling nair. The nair animation will start but not go long enough to get the hitboxes so start. I'd assume it had to do with that? I'll look into zelda's nair landing hitbox later and others to see if they act similarly