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Tier List Speculation

DrinkingFood

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How good a character is in isolation isn't important. You can tell us all the good things about luigi but as long as most characters have tools to shut him down more than half the time he's still comparatively not as threatening. It's like puff being top 5 in melee but generally agreed bottom tier in PM. It's not like she got worse. Everybody around her got better. If you want to be convincing about Luigi's placement on a tier list, tell us what notable matchups he wins, or tell us that he has a limited number of losing matchups, at least.
also im pretty sure his nair is frame 4 but I could be remembering wrong
 

Hylian

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Az probably gets hate because of how much the squirtle slack makes fun of them for not DIing against cloud and letting him get stupid ****
I played that guy in a bunch of friendlies at Evo and he didn't seem like anything special lol. Though he was saying IC's destroy squirtle so *shrugs*. I would not expect him to have high placings in AZ or anything.
 

DrinkingFood

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I played that guy in a bunch of friendlies at Evo and he didn't seem like anything special lol. Though he was saying IC's destroy squirtle so *shrugs*. I would not expect him to have high placings in AZ or anything.
Knowing squirtle mains, he'll try to tell you anyone destroys squirtle.
 

Hylian

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Knowing squirtle mains, he'll try to tell you anyone destroys squirtle.
I mean to be fair it was really easy lol. I just blizzard, he tries to crossup with some move and I CC grab it into death combo.
 

Kapapanerp

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How good a character is in isolation isn't important. You can tell us all the good things about luigi but as long as most characters have tools to shut him down more than half the time he's still comparatively not as threatening. It's like puff being top 5 in melee but generally agreed bottom tier in PM. It's not like she got worse. Everybody around her got better. If you want to be convincing about Luigi's placement on a tier list, tell us what notable matchups he wins, or tell us that he has a limited number of losing matchups, at least.
also im pretty sure his nair is frame 4 but I could be remembering wrong
From my experience He wins vs :gw: :lucario: :warioc: :snake:

Goes even vs :diddy: :rob: :samus2: :zerosuitsamus: :lucas: :peach: :ike: :roypm: :mario2:

Loses vs :fox: :metaknight: :sheik: :marth: :falcon: :falco: :wolf: :mewtwopm: :toonlink:

Not the most detailed MU chart admittedly, but the best i could come up with quickly.

Overall it doesn't seem too bad to me, he has a really solid MU spread vs high tiers for a supposed mid tier.
Having losing MU's vs Spacies Marth and Falcon obviously sucks, but having good MU's vs Lucario Diddy GnW and Wario is quite nice.

Oh, and n-air is frame 3.
 
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steelguttey

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ima post 2 tier lists to stir up some convo
Screen Shot 2016-01-14 at 5.42.57 AM.png
this is where i think characters are in the meta right now. this whole post is about how much they all could change, so just keep reading before you reply because theres more to this. now im taking the strong bad route on this and saying that the first in each tier is the best in the tier, the last in each tier is the worst. everything else in between isnt ordered.


Screen Shot 2016-01-14 at 5.59.56 AM.png
ok before i say anything i want to note that this is not a tier list but its showing the highest i think a character can possibly go on a tier list, determined on raw potential alone. my tier list is a tier list for right now, i think the meta has a ****ton of evolving to do so i can see alot of characters moving around in spots. so, for example, i think fox and wolf are the only characters that have the potential to be the best, and the #2-#5 tier below them i think all have the potential to be #2-#5 on a tier list. i know thats way more than the amount of spots in #2-#5, but i think there is also a huge question on who is in that spot that isnt really answered yet. as you can see i have pretty high hopes for each character lmao

some thing to note: yes i dont think gnw will ever be top 5. i still think hes overrated as ****, nobody at paragon that was good knew the matchup. also i do think wolf has the potential to be the best character but i still think its probably fox. and just to point out cus the colors make it look like its a low tier, #21-#25 is pretty much mid tier, which is pretty good for all of those characters. i think #26-#41 are the only bad characters in this game but they can win counterpick wars in some situations
 

PlateProp

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I played that guy in a bunch of friendlies at Evo and he didn't seem like anything special lol. Though he was saying IC's destroy squirtle so *shrugs*. I would not expect him to have high placings in AZ or anything.
Knowing squirtle mains, he'll try to tell you anyone destroys squirtle.
Popocan chain grab Squirtle across ps2 (so basically every stage) to the edge for free, by himself. And if he makes it to the ledge with nana you're ****ed because free handoffs

So yeah ICs kinda **** up squirtle
 
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Strong Badam

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now im taking the strong bad route on this and saying that the first in each tier is the best in the tier, the last in each tier is the worst. everything else in between isnt ordered.
That is not how I make my tier lists. I typically order the top ~20-25ish characters and leave the rest unordered within tiers.
 
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Ripple

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thats how I order my list Steel. but ts ok, me and SB are basically twins. I can see the how you could mix us up
 
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PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

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How good a character is in isolation isn't important. You can tell us all the good things about luigi but as long as most characters have tools to shut him down more than half the time he's still comparatively not as threatening. It's like puff being top 5 in melee but generally agreed bottom tier in PM. It's not like she got worse. Everybody around her got better. If you want to be convincing about Luigi's placement on a tier list, tell us what notable matchups he wins, or tell us that he has a limited number of losing matchups, at least.
also im pretty sure his nair is frame 4 but I could be remembering wrong
I don't have enough experience with enough characters and/or relevant good players with those characters so I kinda just wanted to throw out some of luigi's tools so other people could think about how to deal with luigi
matchups I think I know/can estimate close enough:
very good/luigi heavily favored: lucario
luigi favored: yoshi, kirby, ics, dk, charizard
slighty luigi favored/easy side of even: bowser, sonic, pikachu, squirtle
hard side of even: ness, falco, peach, snake, mario, diddy, meta knight
not luigi favored: ganon, roy, ivy, fox, falcon, marth, link

the rest idk

matchup numbers are meaningless and will always be so, everything is 5050
 

Binary Clone

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hard side of even: ness, falco, peach, snake, mario, diddy, meta knight
not luigi favored: ganon, roy, ivy, fox, falcon, marth, link

the rest idk

matchup numbers are meaningless and will always be so, everything is 5050
Wait, you're putting Roy on the same unfavorability for Luigi as Fox? That's weird to me.

Roy has next to no combo tools against Luigi that can't easily be broken by nair, and certainly none that could reliably kill, since bair is small enough that you could pretty much always nair if they go for it. He can't edgeguard Luigi very effectively either, because he falls too fast and his recovery is bad.

He can still kind of wall out Luigi, but he gets combod waaay harder and combod into kills, and can be more easily edgeguarded by Luigi just by grabbing ledge and rolling/normal getup from ledge as he's about to upB.

Even then, Roy's walling is pretty limited because it requires much more commitment than, say, Marth's SH double fairs, since Roy really do double anything unless he commits to a fullhop, which is a bad idea.

@Sethlon has said in the past that Luigi is one of Roy's most difficult MUs, and Roy definitely hasn't gotten better since then.
 

Lens

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altho wavescuttling has been largely deemed by most people to be "vaportech" (ie tech that exists but doesn't have practical usage that will ever see the light of day ie smash4 perfect pivoting lmao), it actually is pretty useful to mixup movement in neutral (especially when playing a runaway sh fireball game, because you can feint a fireball waveland approach but then immediately do the 1-frame scuttle feint to return yourself to your initial position as well as possibly using a positionally safe dsmash to catch the opponent trying to approach) as well as when covering ledge options (is your opponent standing to close to the ledge for comfort? just do a ledgedash wavescuttle utilt which will come out during intangibility frames and give you momentum/stage control). also the myth that wavescuttling is only viable in one direction is wrong, in order to get the full momentum fient, it's the same frame/angle window facing either direction.
Tested some of this stuff in debug mode, and as far as I can tell these are the frame details, give or take:

When you hear the phrase 1-frame being tossed around over wavescuttling, that's referring to a single frame spent crawling, which doesn't happen instantly out of stand. In reality it seems like Luigi spends 8 frames transitioning to crawl before his momentum changes on frame 9. That's actually slightly slower than a normal WD, which applies momentum on the 6th frame. (how effective they are at quickly retreating might be a little more complicated, but in general WD is just more effective at getting you out of the way in less time)

What wavescuttling does do is bypass the WD landing lag (essentially actionable frame 10, vs frame 16 for a WD), but so does just running, walking, or attacking straight out of the initial WD, so you've got to really want that retreating slide in order to justify using a wavescuttle over any of those.

Obviously it has some stand-out usefulness against characters that outrange you, since it lets you go in deep without risking much, but when it comes to baiting and punishing you'll probably miss the fewer startup frames more than you'll appreciate less endlag. I'm guessing that WD back -> buffer walk to stop WD momentum -> jab/dsmash/ftilt/grab/whatever is plenty quick enough to catch most overextensions anyways.
 
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Soft Serve

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I'm having trouble picturing how Luigi's nair would not be effective at combo breaking against a wetnoodle.
fix'd

weak upair doesn't do much, strong upair trades with luigi nair more often than not. Same with the fairs, to get in for the usable hitboxes you need to be deeper and its normally not a true combo on luigi, you get the nair to the face

its bait-able though and you can definetly fake it, let it whiff, and fsmash him so its not like roy has no options
 
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ilysm

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I'm confused. Did we not work out the meta for beating out Luigi's nair anymore? Does Luigi's nair no longer get bodied by just waiting it out? This has been Luigi counterplay since Melee. I'm actually kinda asking. Did something change?
 

Swigo

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Just for fun I made a tier list for secondaries, not mains. I mostly am tired of people asking "who should I play as a secondary" so I put together this list, anyway the main criteria I tried to use were

1)Ease of use: This is pretty self explanatory, but I wanted to mostly include characters who had relatively little character specific skill required in order to perform well with them, this is the main reason why characters like Mewtwo/Icies/Pikachu/Lucas etc. are so low. Although these characters may have some very advantageous matchups, they are hindered by the knowledge needed simply to play them at a relatively proficient level. Additionally in this category is how much a character's plan needs to change based on the matchup, eg Falcon can DD grab against most anybody, while Falco may have to change his playstyle entirely against a good Peach

2)Matchups: Here the two main factors were what matchups were positive, as well as how easily one could understand the basic goal within those matchups. This is why characters like Tink perform very well(having positive matchups against many floaties) Marth(having good matchups against the most common character) or DeDeDe who has(sorry ripple) decent matchups against many high tiers, despite struggling against much of the cast.

3)Personal Biases/Other thoughts: Fox gets a decent rating despite in theory being a difficult character to pick up, because he has such uniformly good matchups, while also not needing to alter his gameplan very much for any of them. Although you might need the tech skill, if you just do fox things you'll probably do well against most of the cast. Ganondorf/Bowser get a bump up due to their whole stage counterpick system, but I think that under a character first list this advantage might go away. Snake is definitely placed way too high on the list, but I also think that he makes a weirdly good secondary simply because a very basic snake can take advantage of an opponents lack of matchup knowledge to squeak out a win against a better player. Finally I think that many melee characters have higher representation on the list because their plan is known to a wider player base. I(and many others) have a melee character who we can just throw out there if the match isn't working out with our main and rely predominantly on a different game's knowledge to do well.

Anyway, I'm not a top level player, and this entire chart is really pointless when you think about it(for example why play DeDeDe when Rob has arguably the same positive matchups + a bunch of other positive matchups + is only marginally a more complex character to play), but I had a lot of fun writing it and hopefully other people will have some type of interesting input or thoughts or discussions based off of it. So what do ya'll think?

TL;DR: Marth/Tink is the best character combo followed by Fox/Fox
edit: Sorry for white space in image, I'm bad at Paint
 
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Kapapanerp

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fix'd

weak upair doesn't do much, strong upair trades with luigi nair more often than not. Same with the fairs, to get in for the usable hitboxes you need to be deeper and its normally not a true combo on luigi, you get the nair to the face

its bait-able though and you can definetly fake it, let it whiff, and fsmash him so its not like roy has no options
If Roy is spacing his aerials properly he shouldn't be trading with Luigi at all. From my experience once Roy gets him in the air that's when the MU gets alot more manageable for him. When Luigi's on the ground, then Roy should be terrified.
 
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JesteRace

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I'm confused. Did we not work out the meta for beating out Luigi's nair anymore? Does Luigi's nair no longer get bodied by just waiting it out? This has been Luigi counterplay since Melee. I'm actually kinda asking. Did something change?
That's not the point here. Contrary to popular belief, good Weegees don't just spam nair unless you're overextending. Yes, waiting it out is proper counterplay to nair spam, but the fact is, you have to respect the nair, and thus, most characters have a pretty weak punish game on him. As for Roy, yes you can out-space Luigi, but Roy's sweetspot system means you either out-range Luigi but get absolutely nothing off of it or you get a strong hit but you trade/lose. Marth on the other hand, doesn't have that problem, because he gets rewarded for out-spacing Luigi.
 

Binary Clone

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If Roy is spacing his aerials properly he shouldn't be trading with Luigi at all. From my experience once Roy gets him in the air that's when the MU gets alot more manageable for him. When Luigi's on the ground, then Roy should be terrified.
Roy still has the kill problem, though. His combos racking up percent don't actually mean much when he can practically never convert to a kill on anything but a read, and a single combo break or mistake means he's usually up to near death percent.

Uair and fair, even though they beat Luigi out a bit, pretty much are never going to kill. I'm pretty sure they're worse than Marth's aerials at killing. Because Roy depends a lot on bair to kill most non fastfallers, his disjoint matters less - his bair isn't nearly disjointed enough to reliably beat nair.

You could... I dunno, uncharged Flare Blade? Except that also kinda sucks, and will also pretty much never kill, just set up an edgeguard that Roy is underequipped to convert.

The MU feels manageable when when Luigi is in the air, but the problem is that even once he's up there, Roy is going to struggle to do anything but slowly poke Luigi up to a high enough percent where he has the wiggle room to descend to a platform or escape through some other means.

I feel like people trivialize keeping opponents above you. Being above someone is a disadvantage, of course, but I feel like floaties have the ability to get down more frequently than people want to make it seem.
 

Kapapanerp

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That's not the point here. Contrary to popular belief, good Weegees don't just spam nair unless you're overextending. Yes, waiting it out is proper counterplay to nair spam, but the fact is, you have to respect the nair, and thus, most characters have a pretty weak punish game on him. As for Roy, yes you can out-space Luigi, but Roy's sweetspot system means you either out-range Luigi but get absolutely nothing off of it or you get a strong hit but you trade/lose. Marth on the other hand, doesn't have that problem, because he gets rewarded for out-spacing Luigi.
Roy can still get pretty decent conversions off of sourspot f-air/u-air, at the very least he can stack on alot of percent with f-air/u-air juggles since Luigi has no way to return to ground unless Roy drops his combo or miss-spaces and you get to n-air trade. Taking the stock is were the MU gets tricky for Roy, but he does have options. F-air into flare blade can work, and not to mention Roy has a fairly easy time edge guarding Luigi on stage if Luigi attemps to sweetspot the ledge. Up b sweet spots are slow and telegraphed and sweetspot Missle leaves you vulnerable to a f-smash/flare blade.
 

Xykness

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Oh goodness, we're talking about Luigi again... LOL here goes nothing I guess.

Wave-Drop
I learned "wave-dropping" (the act of dropping through a platform while wave-dashing to retain momentum) from Otek in 3.5 after watching some of his sets and being introduced to him in The Luigi Skype Group. Instantly saw the massive amounts of potential this brought to Luigi's neutral game and his mix-ups, so I began grinding it. I have found that once opponents figure out what it is, they will position themselves to properly punish it. With that being said, I will throw it around all day if my opponent can't learn to deal with it, but it can be used for several options... This includes throwing really fast aerials at them (sweet spot nair at high percents, weak nair into punish move, bair pokes, etc). You can also b-reversal fireball to mix-up your momentum as an approach or bait. Sometimes I will tournament-winner from ledge --> wave-land --> wave-drop with b-reversal fireball if my opponent is under the platform. It usually catches people off-guard and I will get a dsmash or jab confirm into something. You can also simply do nothing during a wave-drop, allowing for you to potentially wave-land out of it on the ground to further mix-up your opponent (similar to an empty jump approach).

Wave-Scuttle
I've been utilizing "wave-scuttle" (the act of wave-dashing to the right and using Luigi's crawl to immediately shift his momentum the opposite direction) since 3.02 and have been trying to convince Luigi's to use it effectively (rather than a taunt) for so long. You will typically see me utilize it when they are forced to roll or use their get-up attack... I will wave-dash in to bait them to roll a certain direction, then wave-scuttle up-smash to hit them before they can react. I will also do this from perfect ledge-dash... if they're sitting by the ledge waiting to hit me with a move, I will ledge-dash and immediately wave-scuttle up-smash. This option is completely safe on shield, fast, and you have invulnerability on the startup of up-smash. So I mainly will use wave-scuttle up-smash for reading tech rolls and when I am retreating to the right of the stage as a quick counter move. You can also do other things out of wave-scuttle, but because up-smash starts from behind him at a ridiculous angle, I enjoy using that the most and have had the most success with it. (Essentially wave-scuttle eliminates the lag of using another wave-dash and you can use any move pretty much immediately after the scuttle begins).

Perfect Ledge-Dash
At We Tech Those (and several other tournaments prior that I had traveled to), players would ask me why I give up stage position by retreating to ledge in many situations... Honestly, it's because I find that Luigi still retains incredible stage position by being on ledge because of his perfect ledge-dash (the act of wave-landing from the ledge in which you utilize all of his invulnerability frames). I will get the perfect ledge-dash almost every time (thanks to hours of grinding and Netflix to pass the time). You will almost NEVER see me regular get-up or roll onto stage. Occasionally I will get-up attack, but I don't even really do that either. I think all Luigi needs are tournament-winner to platform wave-land (or aerial), jumping up with aerial or fireball (possibly into wave-land), tournament-winner into immediate wave-land down (faster regular get-up), and perfect ledge-dash options. Honestly Luigi's ledge-dash is incredibly safe, which is why I am always on ledge. I can use that immense invulnerability to secure free grabs, combo starters or simply as a way to keep myself safe while they have invulnerability from a fresh stock. If my opponent is using items (Junebug would throw bananas at me while I was on ledge), it would allow for easy item control as well. I actually feel more in danger when I am sitting in the middle of the stage tbh. If you are a Luigi and haven't learned the perfect ledge-dash, I highly encourage/recommend you to start grinding it now because it is one of the most useful things in his toolkit imo.

If you want to play a tricky bait and punish Luigi, then I think that you should look into utilizing the things I listed above. This isn't everything you need to know about the character, but rather just some of the things I wanted to touch on based on the discussion in here. I've seen Luigi players place well even without all of this fancy stuff. Honestly, its super fun to move around this way, which is why I play the character. It just so happens to be really difficult to deal with and provide a several more options to his neutral game.

As for his tier placement... I used to think he was top 15, but he might be right outside of that. Looking forward to seeing how well I perform at Shots Fired 2 to get some more match-up experience. If anyone wants to sit down for a bit and play some games at that event, I'd be more than willing to talk about Luigi and help you understand how to counter a lot of things I never see players punish. Character is a gawd, don't get me wrong, but people need to learn how to edge-guard this character already :p

This concludes today's session of Luigi 101: Wave-Drops, Wave-Scuttles, & Perfect Ledge-Dashing. Remember to do your homework and be prepared for a big pop quiz in the upcoming weeks.

TL;DR: Wave-dropping has multiple mix-ups and shouldn't just be thrown around willy nilly. Wave-scuttle is the new meta and will quickly make you rethink your roll and approach options. Perfect ledge-dash is bae and makes Luigi a gawd. Play Luigi however you want tho.
 
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DrinkingFood

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**** luigi's ledge dash tho. I can't even beat it as ROB with that thing where I boost fair at the edge over any possible get-up/ledge dash attacks in time with their invinc to end because luigi's edge dash upsmash covers obscene space with an anti-air. Clearly this is OP when my one-size-fits-all punishments stop working.
 
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ThegreatVaporeon1

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Roy's soft dair to sweetspot back air works on Luigi btw. he can't nair out of that.
I think the biggest thing that Roy has trouble with vs Luigi is edgeguarding him. There really isn't much Roy can do besides hold ledge from my experiences
 
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ilysm

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JesteRace JesteRace I think I get what you're saying. To clarify, I wasn't arguing the matchup (which I have neither the knowledge nor the experience to do reliably) but rather asking why "nair is a combo breaker" was suddenly being treated as a new development. I'm still coming from a place that doesn't understand Luigi (like most other characters) as well as I'd like to, so while I was sort of being sarcastic in that instance, I'm also still very much here to learn. Didn't mean to sound rude, and if I did, my bad. ^_^
 
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Hylian

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Do people really think IC's are mid-low/low tier? I see them there in like every tier list. They are incredibly good, top 15 easily, possibly top 10. I dun get it.
 

Life

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Seriously, people, look at the CSS and ask yourself for every individual character whether you think they might be in the top half of the cast. I personally have trouble naming 10 offhand, though I don't have a CSS in front of me. (The fat four [Bowser/DK/DDD/Zard], Pit, Yoshi, Ness, Kirby... Ganondorf?)

"30 characters in the top 20" is a pretty decent assessment of where we are right now, with even some of the characters I just listed seeing non-zero results, e.g. Thunderz' run last weekend, Stereokidd and friends repping Ness, June's pocket Ganon, Tetra's Kirby.

Meanwhile, commonly-cited top characters like Fox and Wolf show surprisingly little results outside locals (and in the former case, tournaments with more Melee player crossover), despite that pretty much everyone agrees they have so much potential.

Between "characters that have already shown results" and "characters we're pretty sure are good but nobody plays them" it's really hard to actually call tiers in this game.

I'm personally only confident in saying Fox/Wolf/Diddy is the top 3 and Bowser's the worst. I'm honestly only particularly sure about the latter; Fox, Wolf, Diddy Kong, and one other commonly cited toptier (MK) all run into a somewhat lesser version of the problem Falco runs into, where everyone practices their combos on fastfallers, so a single hole in your matchup knowledge can ruin your tournament run as you get death combo'd several times before you understand what you're up against. When they don't run into that problem--and that problem will become lessened as players get more experienced--those characters can shine, though.

I think it's valuable at some levels of play to avoid playing glass cannons so as to give yourself more time to learn how new characters work.
 

TheGravyTrain

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Life Life DrinkingFood DrinkingFood nimigoha nimigoha

Actually, after 5 frames of dashing back + 1 frame of pivot, DK evacuates more space than Marth does. After 10 frames + 1 of pivot, Marth beats him. DK's fatness is not a factor in this instance. If you think of it as distance from TopN, you see why. While DK's legs are far from TopN (on the dash back portion), the face is equally far from TopN (on the dashing towards portion). What needs to happen is the front portion needs to be smaller than the back portion in their respective instances. For an example of a good dash animation, look at Jigglypuff. Her front is decently far, but the back is tiny. So when she dashes back, she evacuates more space than you would expect given her dash stats might lead you to believe. (I am in no way advocating Puff mains to dash dance solely for this reason, just exemplifies the concept well). When 2 characters have similar dash stats (Marth and DK have comparable initial dash lengths, I presume similar speeds since they also both have 15 frame long initial dashes, though DK probs has better acceleration and Marth has better top speed). I will give you that DK's occupies slightly more vertical space.
 

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dirtboy345

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I played that guy in a bunch of friendlies at Evo and he didn't seem like anything special lol. Though he was saying IC's destroy squirtle so *shrugs*. I would not expect him to have high placings in AZ or anything.
Knowing squirtle mains, he'll try to tell you anyone destroys squirtle.
Nah, I say that Squirtle destroys ICs
edit: Dirtboy we were calling cloud for being to scared to accept PR rank matches from better players lower on the PR than him. Car consensus is that your have very nice neutral and edgeguards but the squirtle-jerk is obnoxious af
I mean the squirtle-jerk has gone both ways plenty lol. I'm usually just ****ing around though
 
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Rᴏb

still here, just to suffer
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Messages
1,595
not to rain on anyone's parade, but wavedropping is already a thing from melee; it's the act of wavedashing straight down.
 
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nimigoha

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
877
That is called wavedashing in place and whatever knucklehead decided it needed its own term (that literally no one uses) should go sit in a corner for time out.

Wave implies airdodge into ground.

Drop leads straight to the 1 main idea that the word "drop" invokes, which is dropping through a platform.

Crouch? Holding the Control stick directly down? Wavecrouch. Now the term "wavedrop" can actually applied to something that goes "wave" then "drop".

So if you want a term for wavedashing in place, there you have it. Wavecrouch. Anyone is free to use it.

I certainly won't.
 
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