Tier List Speculation

G13_Flux

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,076

Can we talk about the future?
how many actioanble frames of intangibility can he accquire because of this?

im pretty sure other characters can do this too. it just involves landing onstage at the right time near the apex of your DJ such your characters goes into the "wait" aniation (0 frames of landing lag) as opposed to undergoing normal, heavy landing lag (4 frames for most, 5 for some, 6 for bowser and DDD).
 
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
648
Location
Cleveland, OH/Providence, RI
I'm surprised that Lucas isn't higher!?! His PK fire (or what was his PK fire) has crazy good range and over all I feel he had good buffs. Where's the love???? :4lucas::4lucas::4lucas::4lucas::4lucas::4lucas::4lucas::4lucas::4lucas::4lucas::4lucas::4lucas::4lucas:
(I'm never sure how to introduce this thread so pardon if this is hard to understand.)

Hi! I see you joined today, so welcome to Smashboards!

First off, you are not wrong. Lucas did get a lot of buffs and he is generally agreed upon to be pretty good (as well as being very cool and hella fun to play if you're willing to put in the work for tech skill).

However, tier placement is a lot more complicated than than how many buffs or nerfs each character got, or how 'good' a character feels on their own. Smash is basically a game of interactions—players and characters interacting with each other and selecting options to try and beat each other out. Hundreds or thousands of interactions can happen across the course of one game. Any of a character's traits or attributes (weight, fall speed, frame data, recovery distance, traction, shield size, jumpsquat, etc.) can make interactions easier/more advantageous or harder/less advantageous depending on the character they're fighting.

In any given matchup, the character who has the easiest/most advantageous interactions wins the matchup. If they have really really easy/advantageous interactions, they win the matchup by a lot. If they both have equally easy interactions or it's advantageous for neither of them, the matchup is even. This also applies to the tier list. Basically, the character who has the easiest/most advantageous interactions the most often out of anybody in the entire roster is the best character.

This game is a wild, insane, crazy thing. It's had so many changes to make characters better, worse, more oriented to their archetype, or even just cooler. Its roster has 40+ characters. That is many, many matchups (more than I'm inclined to count because the numbers arguably change when you factor in Pikmin lineups with Olimar + other weird stuff and that level of math is just not worth it, yo). It's also relatively new (at least compared to Melee, which came out fifteen years ago). The community is also pretty disorganized. We're still figuring out who our top players are, which results matter, what ruleset we should use, who's good at the game (pretty much nobody), who's bad at the game (pretty much everybody), whose opinions are worth listening to (your guess is as good as mine), and all that jazz.

Sound pretty deep? Yeah. Confusing? Yeah. This thread is mostly pages and pages and pages of nonsense. That's because (a), the process of figuring out anything nearly as complicated as a definitive Tier List for Project M is kinda grueling and (b), everyone on this website has a whacked-out sense of humor. The PM community is stabilizing, so we're kinda going through growing pains at the moment. Sorry for the mess.

I hope this helped explain something, or made any kind of sense at all. This all might be super unnecessary, but I just didn't want yet another useless sarcastic response to clog up this thread even more. Not very conducive to community growth, you know? If troll, please disregard the previous message, mea culpa, etc.

Peace out! <3
 
Last edited:

Nausicaa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
1,485
Location
Here
Sound pretty deep? Yeah. Confusing? Yeah. This thread is mostly pages and pages and pages of nonsense. That's because (a), the process of figuring out anything nearly as complicated as a definitive Tier List for Project M is kinda grueling and (b), everyone on this website has a whacked-out sense of humor. The PM community is stabilizing, so we're kinda going through growing pains at the moment. Sorry for the mess.
Indigeau bringing out the red carpet for the new member. Good job ^_^.

This kind of unproductive post is the type Indigeau was talking about.


I've come here for no reason other than for the sake of coming here, and now I'm leaving again.

so um... game is fun, not playing it.
Link needs a grabbox
um...
Snakes dart is intangible and that's terrible
 

Mage.

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
47
-People talk about how crap a character is/they never talk about him
-Said character places well/high/wins a big tournament
-ohthat'ssodamnbroken.bit
-the oceans converge to the tier list thread
-insert talk about said character being stupid in some way
-insert crying about how said character beats their character
-5 pages of people discuss said character's overpowered stuff
-Asks for said character to be nerfed and theirs to be buffed
-Somehow the topic gets back to fax

And so the cycle continues.
 
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
877
Well DK's probably most busted move wasn't really used. Pretty much the only move I have a problem with is Down B, but from my experience its usage varies a lot by player. Some DKs use it to cover techs and get regrabs or kill moves a lot, some don't use it much at all. It's super good though.

Thunderz played smart, he found opportunities to grab, and he did what DK's should do best, which is capitalize on their grab punishes. He played very patiently and found the right moment to go in. Some solid edgeguarding especially making use of Shinecopter (didn't Dtilt much though).

Also his offscreen Nair kills were godlike.

I'm really pleased with his performance and IMO it kinda pushes people into one of two groups: either you still say DK is a bottom 5 character like PMU's tier list places him currently, and with this you accept how close the bottom tiers are to the top OR how matchups can still be quite favourable but solid play can overcome the disadvantage, or you have to think that DK may not be a bottom 5 character, which for anyone outside of Ontario is a new concept lol.

There were at least 177 entrants going by the pools sheet. DK getting second out of all of them is not something to forget about.
 

MLGF

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,922
Still think solo maining most characters is viable, even (relatively) bad characters like DK.
It's way too much work relative to dual maining however.
 
Last edited:

CORY

wut
GRimer
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Messages
15,702
Location
dallas area
-People talk about how crap a character is/they never talk about him
-Said character places well/high/wins a big tournament
-ohthat'ssodamnbroken.bit
-the oceans converge to the tier list thread
-insert talk about said character being stupid in some way
-insert crying about how said character beats their character
-5 pages of people discuss said character's overpowered stuff
-Asks for said character to be nerfed and theirs to be buffed
-Somehow the topic gets back to fax

And so the cycle continues.
i just cut the middleman and ***** about fox.

all hail our shiney space furry overlord.

atta atta atta atta atta
 

Strong Badam

Journey
Administrator
Premium
GRimer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
25,698
Dk still sucks (comparatively, all chars are at least scary when a really good player uses them) imo but thunderz is a god. And he ran into no matchups where dks weaknesses became crippling other than vs junebug diddy, who played the mu wrong early on in gfs. In a mu where a char is super floaty so his combos don't work, a char has disjoint to contend with his range, a char with spammable projectiles, or a combination of the above, DK should as a general rule struggle heavily. Would love to see how thunderz would fare against a comparably skilled g&w, Rob, toon link, Samus, snake, Mewtwo, Ivysaur, etc.. Just kinda the standard with PM tournaments lately, all characters are capable of making it super deep in a challenging field when used by a very skilled player and the matchups align well.
 
Last edited:

jtm94

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
1,384
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Thunderz could still win against all those characters because he's good unless the other player is better.

His banana counterplay was cringe worthy at it's best. If he had solid item play I think he could have put a bigger dent in June. He even said that Diddy himself wasn't that bad, it was just everything revolving around the banana.
 

Saproling

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 8, 2014
Messages
239
Location
Illinois
Thunderz could still win against all those characters because he's good unless the other player is better.

His banana counterplay was cringe worthy at it's best. If he had solid item play I think he could have put a bigger dent in June. He even said that Diddy himself wasn't that bad, it was just everything revolving around the banana.
You do realize the banana is sentient and just uses the monkey as a host right?
 
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
877
You guys aren't freaking out all that much. C'mon, I expect more from you! Kappa

Also, still waiting on that MK revolution people are calling for...
It's the internal struggle between saying DK sucks for the last 3 years and freaking out after DK can clearly do well.

I agree that his bracket didn't have to players of terrible matchups (Ness is bad though) but even out of the ones SB mentioned I think Snake, Samus, and ROB are fine.

Him not running into Stereo was a blessing to be honest. I'd love to see them play.
 

Soft Serve

softie
Premium
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
4,163
Location
AZ
Have you seen the gfys softie has been posting lately? Diddy Kong is low key the best character in this game, just wait a year and maybe we'll stop thinking fox is untouchable.
while I disagree with diddy being the best character in the game (tricky wave bounce movement and ledge stalls and a means to beat sheilds don't help stop fox rush down or being unable to get in/kill samus or deal with m2's who know the good item tech) diddy is pretty god damn ****ing good


Also Mewtwo with a banana is the best character in the game. http://gfycat.com/TintedPeriodicAmurstarfish
Disjointed z drops, FC aerials with banana in hand, trip on shield>shadowball covers 3/4 tech options

Diddy does poop on DK though, like in the 70/30 ranges. June could have expanded his punish game on DK a lot after those low% upthrow uptilts if he did side-b to catch DI away, which leads to an uptilt or a regrab (below like 50-60) depending on DI, which leads to another upthrow/uptilt side-b, which gives you an uptilt or DJ nair/Dair/footstool as long as you follow the DI. One of those MUs where each character dies to one grab, but only one should be getting the grabs
 
Last edited:

trash?

witty/pretty
Premium
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
3,452
Location
vancouver bc
NNID
????
for context, DK vs. diddy grand finals:


honestly I recommend going through all of TR's games this tournament if you wanna have fun, especially iPK vs TR, a battle of the most graceful and precise versus a guy who just picks you up on his back, throws you in the air and then headbutts you endlessly
 

prem

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
86
Location
Bay area, California
It's the internal struggle between saying DK sucks for the last 3 years and freaking out after DK can clearly do well.

I agree that his bracket didn't have to players of terrible matchups (Ness is bad though) but even out of the ones SB mentioned I think Snake, Samus, and ROB are fine.

Him not running into Stereo was a blessing to be honest. I'd love to see them play.
he has beaten machiavelli before in tournament at humble dojo, and thinks that matchup isn't that bad so theres that. also he 3 stocked (well 2 stocked but one was an sd cause he was trying to style too hard) stereokidd in the west coast vs out of state crew battle that happened later LOL

regardless I just think DK isn't bottom 5, just still on the lower half of the cast so don't think I'm calling him broken because i definitely know its just ThundeRz being a god
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
877
he has beaten machiavelli before in tournament at humble dojo, and thinks that matchup isn't that bad so theres that. also he 3 stocked (well 2 stocked but one was an sd cause he was trying to style too hard) stereokidd in the west coast vs out of state crew battle that happened later LOL

regardless I just think DK isn't bottom 5, just still on the lower half of the cast so don't think I'm calling him broken because i definitely know its just ThundeRz being a god
Wow didn't know about the Stereo match, that's pretty wicked.

I think DK is solidly in the bottom half.
 

trash?

witty/pretty
Premium
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
3,452
Location
vancouver bc
NNID
????
a lot of the matchup issues are being evened out both by DK's opponent not getting the kill when they honestly should be (a lot of TR vs iPK is like this for iPK), and also by TR being so good that he can call out people with a raw giant punch and it consistently works

from the sheer point of viability, unless you're unfortunate enough to willingly choose bowser or pit you have a chance to hit it big, but at the same time you also get more consistency long-term if you pick someone like diddy kong or [UNINTELLIGIBLE SOUNDS OF SHINES AND HYAAHS], because you can adapt with the same character for a lot of opponents

diggin' through the youtubes, here's a video of him vs. a TL:


I'd like to see a set of him vs lunchables, roy or TL would be fun
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Premium
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
Dk still sucks (comparatively, all chars are at least scary when a really good player uses them) imo but thunderz is a god. And he ran into no matchups where dks weaknesses became crippling other than vs junebug diddy, who played the mu wrong early on in gfs. In a mu where a char is super floaty so his combos don't work, a char has disjoint to contend with his range, a char with spammable projectiles, or a combination of the above, DK should as a general rule struggle heavily. Would love to see how thunderz would fare against a comparably skilled g&w, Rob, toon link, Samus, snake, Mewtwo, Ivysaur, etc.. Just kinda the standard with PM tournaments lately, all characters are capable of making it super deep in a challenging field when used by a very skilled player and the matchups align well.
Idk if anyone has said it yet, because I didn't read anything past your post, but DK has a good MU with Samus. Has one in melee too. Bair > Missiles, and he can still kill confirm off of grabs. Plus her CC game is pretty mehish against him. And with the introduction of RAR bairs, he's pretty good at covering her WD back>tilts.

I 100% agree that DK still sucks though, and I actually came here to say just that. I saw a lot of players over extending and getting grabbed, and then not SDIing his combos. Just seemed like generally poor play, and amazing counterplay by thunderz. He took full advantage of every opportunity that he got, and that was the big difference. The problem was that his opponents gave him too many opportunities.
 

Mage.

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
47
Or y'know bottom 5 in this game doesn't mean jack considering that there is no character that is terrible all around. Meaning the lines between the tiers are blurry so pick whoever the hell you want and just win.
 

jtm94

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
1,384
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
It's murder both ways, but GnW has a machinegun of bacon and DK has a knife.

Yeah real talk Thunderz is GOAT DK. It is true he didn't face MUs as bad as he could have and it was very apparent how crippling Diddy vs DK was when you decide to just run around and throw stuff. Junebug's punish game on Thunderz was almost on par with what DK can do to Diddy, but Diddy has 1000 more ways to get in.
 
Last edited:

Beorn

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
256
Location
Nashville TN
It's crippling to go into a match with the best diddy in the world and have no PM item game to speak of. He did extremely well considering this and his character choice.
 
Last edited:
Top