Tier List Speculation

Juushichi

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From what I have observed from puff MUs (as I have watched Pech for years now)
Puff vs:
Mewtwo - Disadvantaged (or worse)
Ivysaur - even enough (any time Ivy tethers to the ledge w/ puff on it means she dies, sometimes she doesn't even get to it)
Icies - even enough (dies at 50 or something crazy w/ both paired, Popo vs Puff is very bad for Popo)
Toon Link - Very Disadvantaged

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How I feel about bad MUs in PM:

1. Even if there is a carryover from Melee, the MU is probably not explored enough in PM.
2. I think 4-6 is still playable, but you will probably lose it.
3. Playing a bad MU that you know very well can still get you very far, with dedication and a good mindset.
4. With all this said, if you don't like a MU... a secondary or alternative character is a great option. Don't feel like you have to stick to one character.
 
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Star ☆

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Been waiting for this gif for a long time. Good ****. What's the best theoretical counter play to this? Besides waiting for them to mess up and SD, I mean.
Pretty sure you could run in and steal the ledge. Or you could throw out a hitbox for Wolf to hit with his bayonet and the hitlag will likely expire his invincibility then he'll get hit by your attack.
 

Chevy

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I dunno. I tend to look at losing matchups as being one of two kinds. The first kind is the sort of losing matchup where one character has a strong edge over the other due to the fact that the winning character's tools force the losing character to play more carefully, or more precise, or at a higher level in general. A good example of this I think would be something like Ness/Samus. Samus is near-ungimpable, extremely difficult to kill and combo, and can wall Ness out very successfully with projectiles. As such, Ness needs to be extremely cautious and spot on. He needs to shield and avoid projectiles, not overextend his combos to leave himself open for punishes, and take his own punishes where he can get them. Since she lives so long compared to him, he needs to outplay her many more times than she does him in order to secure a stock, so while he's doing all this he needs to get hit as little as possible. These are things that are difficult to do, and that is why the matchup is considered bad. But if Ness is on his game and can do these things, he can win. So the matchup is not a total loss in terms of character viability.
Good points overall, but you vastly overstate the difficulty of this matchup for Ness. Samus is the one that has to win neutral more times because she doesn't get more than a few hits off of a good conversion, and Ness' excellent punish game still functions somewhat on Samus. Only bad players get walled out by missiles, and Samus doesn't live past 130 or so most of the time because of his back throw. Folks don't usually agree, but I think it's around even.
 

Boiko

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Good points overall, but you vastly overstate the difficulty of this matchup for Ness. Samus is the one that has to win neutral more times because she doesn't get more than a few hits off of a good conversion, and Ness' excellent punish game still functions somewhat on Samus. Only bad players get walled out by missiles, and Samus doesn't live past 130 or so most of the time because of his back throw. Folks don't usually agree, but I think it's around even.
Slight Samus favor, IMO. Annoying, but doable. Ness just has to be super patient and not over extend his punishes on her. She just has better tools in the neutral than him, allowing her to 'win' more frequently. Not nearly as bad as his MU with Marth or Sheik.
 

Soft Serve

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i mean, what could the wolf do to you jumping over him and stealing ledge? it doesnt have a hitbox that covers the ledge like sheik does
The bayonet has a hitbox, and unlike shiek wolf has really good options jumping from the ledge, as well as this being a quicker cycle.

Oh look I made a move to take the ledge from him, he jumped from ledge and naired shined me, I just got nair shined>dsmashed off stage and gimped
 

Chevy

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Slight Samus favor, IMO. Annoying, but doable. Ness just has to be super patient and not over extend his punishes on her. She just has better tools in the neutral than him, allowing her to 'win' more frequently. Not nearly as bad as his MU with Marth or Sheik.
Samus certainly wins the neutral, she wins neutral against like 90% of the cast haha.
 

Soft Serve

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Things like these make me question the pmdt's sanity when they put them in

Pretty sure diddy will have a variant of this soon too, just wait
I wish. Diddy's air dodge IASA frame are on frame 27 of the animation compared to wolfs frame 15/16ish. Diddy's double jump is also way slower to gain height, he almost has a fully invincible hax dash thats fesable. I've gotten it in debug and in real time a few times but you need a suicidal air-dodge angle to get back on the ledge, then fast fall etc.

Believe me, I'm trying to optimize it atm.
 
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Chevy

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That's because he has to play me in tournament almost every single time lolz. You'll see a LOT of our matches on youtube and how the match up is basically played out. Watch those and find out about the match up yourself.
Maybe if you went to tournaments, pretty sure our only sets this period were the reverse mains one and the all star random one from that GC monday.
 

Akhenderson

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Maybe if you went to tournaments, pretty sure our only sets this period were the reverse mains one and the all star random one from that GC monday.
In a majority of tournaments this year, I think we've played in bracket pretty much every single time I went. The one tournament that HASN'T had us play together was dropzone.
I also talked to Pooch about the Ness/Samus match up and he also thinks the match up isn't as bad as it seems.
 

Volume AF

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You're clearly forgetting me vs an ICs at my first ever Melee local after playing Jiggs for a week, where I got wobbled 3 times over 2 games. The matchup is unwinnable, of course.
The MU is 60-40 in Puffs favor, if not even. If wobbling is allowed, yeah it turns into a wobblefest because puff is already difficult to catch, because she stays on top of you too long. You don't have that in PM, so if anything the MU is worse since we can't get a decent enough punish. At best, ICs could throw random ice shots or spaced Bairs & Uairs to cover Jiggs aerials. By no means should this MU be hard for Jiggs, she technically dies early to anyone and edguarding the AI is a piece of cake.
 

xquqx

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The MU is 60-40 in Puffs favor, if not even. If wobbling is allowed, yeah it turns into a wobblefest because puff is already difficult to catch, because she stays on top of you too long. You don't have that in PM, so if anything the MU is worse since we can't get a decent enough punish. At best, ICs could throw random ice shots or spaced Bairs & Uairs to cover Jiggs aerials. By no means should this MU be hard for Jiggs, she technically dies early to anyone and edguarding the AI is a piece of cake.
Good analysis, but I hope you realize you're responding to a joke post.
 

Volume AF

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Good analysis, but I hope you realize you're responding to a joke post.
I know I was, but I like talking about ICs, since they are a really underdeveloped character, even for me to say as underdeveloped as Olimar at this point. Ice climbers are put a little bit too high in the "official tier list" with no major results besides Sharkz and Presh, as opposed to many other characters that are used are placed below them. It's an awkward situation since it takes that spot, but most people don't know how to deal with it, andno good ICs player have broken the barrier besides the two I mentioned and Hylian (If he still plays).
 

Hylian

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I think IC's go even with or beat puff, especially with the fixed interpolation on upsmash/fsmash from melee(which also makes peach much more manageable). Their burst movement is a serious threat to puffs air control considering the threat of their smashes to her at moderately high percents.
 

jtm94

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Wolf can mix up the haxdash laser with invincible SideB shorten at ledge with a hitbox that covers the ledge pretty well. I'd say his ledge options are potentially godlike. Too bad he's #GlassCannon and can never be good like the other spacies. Woe is life.

Anything big happen recently besides Dakpo and GabPR?
 

Volume AF

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I think IC's go even with or beat puff, especially with the fixed interpolation on upsmash/fsmash from melee(which also makes peach much more manageable). Their burst movement is a serious threat to puffs air control considering the threat of their smashes to her at moderately high percents.
I think the only way puff can really be in the losing MU would be if she got hit a lot of times with chance smashes. I'd at least say it's even.

Although I do agree that the peach MU is a lot more doable than in Melee. Way to go would have to camp with Ice shots and Fairs, but sadly can't say the same for Ivy or Tink.
 

Hylian

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I think the only way puff can really be in the losing MU would be if she got hit a lot of times with chance smashes. I'd at least say it's even.

Although I do agree that the peach MU is a lot more doable than in Melee. Way to go would have to camp with Ice shots and Fairs, but sadly can't say the same for Ivy or Tink.
It's not chance though, puffs like to space out characters with bair, and ICs burst movement allows them to react with to that or even trade with her now that interpolation is fixed. In melee WD fsmash/upsmash would whiff/not hit her bair/fair which is why you don't see this, but in PM it will beat out her bair/fair. Same reason ICs cannot WD -> fsmash/upsmash peach retreating fair in melee but they can in PM.
 

Volume AF

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It's not chance though, puffs like to space out characters with bair, and ICs burst movement allows them to react with to that or even trade with her now that interpolation is fixed. In melee WD fsmash/upsmash would whiff/not hit her bair/fair which is why you don't see this, but in PM it will beat out her bair/fair. Same reason ICs cannot WD -> fsmash/upsmash peach retreating fair in melee but they can in PM.
Hmm, I'll take your word for it and try this on Peach mains. I probably never did this cause of melee too.
 

Ya Boy GP

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The MU is 60-40 in Puffs favor, if not even. If wobbling is allowed, yeah it turns into a wobblefest because puff is already difficult to catch, because she stays on top of you too long. You don't have that in PM, so if anything the MU is worse since we can't get a decent enough punish. At best, ICs could throw random ice shots or spaced Bairs & Uairs to cover Jiggs aerials. By no means should this MU be hard for Jiggs, she technically dies early to anyone and edguarding the AI is a piece of cake.
The matchup is definitely around even, and I could even see ICs winning the MU. Blizzard is an extremely strong tool in the MU since it outranges puffs threat zone, and the other IC can cover the end lag of Blizzard so there's theoretically no punish for it. Situations could arise where you can punish blizzard but not enough to warrant saying puff solidly wins the neutral.

Ice blocks make it hard for Puff to edgeguard ICs and good DI combined with their synced squall is great at completely avoiding Puff attempts at an offstage edgeguard.

Killing her is pretty hard but it's easier to do it in PM than it is in Melee. Good handoffs of just 1-2 regrabs into usmash plus all the stray damage from blizzard and ice blocks in neutral is enough to rack up 50-70% which is enough for a dthrow usmash OR reading her air movement into uair -> up-b. ICs having a kill confirmation off of an aerial is great because it means they don't rely on grabs in this MU as much as they used to in Melee, plus uair -> up-b is confirmed into itself at low percents and kills insanely early.

In my opinion, ICs are way too different in this game to look back on the Melee MU spread and assume it's around the same in PM. Ice blocks, Squall, up-b, usmash, blizzard, Nana AI, and interpolation like Hylian mentioned are all much better in this game and change the Matchup a lot.

Also here's a reference of the MU being played at a high level and you can see how Phresh plays the neutral well and the ways he uses blizzard to set up grabs or deny/cover space, and how uair can confirm into up-b. AND NANAS DOPE AF USMASH GAME 2 (around 9:35) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9tFO0On1WU
 
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I'd never considered how much earlier Puff can potentially die to different characters' new PM digs. I still think she's underrated, but I'm starting to see the reasoning behind why most people place her so low. Do other PM characters have similar things to this?
 
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shairn

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I think Bowser's uthrow -> uair might connect with Jiggs for ultra low% kills
Also crouch the rest for victory
 
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