Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

It matters if you try to CC something and the knockback reduction ends up putting it below 30 knockback

https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3om6rz/you_cannot_crouch_cancel_foxs_nair_close_to_0/

I had actually forgotten about that, but that's actually still fairly situational. the growth would eventually negate this, and most moves still don't have even sub-45 knockback at 0 which would be required for the 2/3rds reduction to be sub-30

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Up tilt sends at a fairly disgusting angle and is suuper strong. It's like an F-Smash.

Bair sends higher (ayy it might not) and is weaker.

Read ledgedash? DISGUSTING LAND STOMP

Ganon 101.

Bair never actually catches up to the foot (22%) hit of utilt, it's damage causes it to increase at a higher rate than bair despite it's lower kbg.
Bair eventually catches up to the shoulder (20%) hit of utilt, but only at high percents (passes at 113% on an opponent of 100 weight).

So utilt is gonna be stronger like 90% of the time.

Though Volt-Ikazuchi probably meant that bair outclasses it due to it being easier to land and a safer move.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Bair is easier to land in most cases, and I think it's faster and a bit more subtle than Uair. So while Uair is stronger, Bair is used more often and is generally the better option unless you get the right conditions to throw the flash kick.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Edit: Wait, we're talking about Up Tilt? My B. Completely different moves and uses, sorry.

U-Tilt is stupid powerful, but you need to condition your opponent to actually get busy doing something else thats not dodging or flat out countering the tilt. So yeah, it's pretty much only useable for edgeguarding, but Bair is a more versatile and safer option.

Actually, that kinda fits what I've said before on a more extreme level. Weird.

 

[CORY]

ganon's bair is slower than uair, but it's stronger. uair is a massive coverage option that's kinda safe on shield, but you mostly use it for it's super fast start up (hits frame5) and huge hitbox arc around him. bair hits... frame12, i think... and has a more specific hitbox, but it's safer on shield and is less commitment overall (since it ends sooner) allowing you wl tricks, along with being a stronger hit overall.

they tend to have different uses (bair is more of a poke, uair is more to keep people from landing and for jumping up under recovering opponents and pooping in their wheaties, for more generalised roles) but are both really good aerials.

 

[Bazkip]

Volt-Ikazuchi Oh, why were you talking about uair?
Bair is stronger than uair, though uair is likely a better move due to having more utility.

CORY pls, uair is frame 6 and bair is frame 10

 

[Player -0]

WAIT.

CAN WE TALK ABOUT HOW DISGUSTINGLY LONG THE BAIR ACTIVE FRAMES ARE?

I don't even know the frame data but when I'm playing Ganon it's like I stick my fist out and then push it into them and they die.

 

[Bazkip]

WAIT.

CAN WE TALK ABOUT HOW DISGUSTINGLY LONG THE BAIR ACTIVE FRAMES ARE?

I don't even know the frame data but when I'm playing Ganon it's like I stick my fist out and then push it into them and they die.

It's active frames 5-10
I don't think that's particularly long...?

 

[eideeiit]

Why on earth would you ***** about Ganon's bair's active frames when his DA and the entire character of G&W exist?

I'm salty.

 

[Jonyc128]

Mario's bair is active frames 6-17, so yea that's not particularly long at all

 

[Bazkip]

Mario's bair is active frames 6-17, so yea that's not particularly long at all

Though Mario's strong hit is only the first 3 frames whereas Ganon's bair sweetspot is active for the whole duration, so maybe that's what people find surprising? Idk that's still not that long though.

 

[Jonyc128]

Though Mario's strong hit is only the first 3 frames whereas Ganon's bair sweetspot is active for the whole duration, so maybe that's what people find surprising? Idk that's still not that long though.

Yea but if Mario gets the sourspot, he can just double jump, bair again, and drift back to ledge

 

[Bazkip]

Yea but if Mario gets the sourspot, he can just double jump, bair again, and drift back to ledge

I'm not talking about the actual applications of the different hits, it's just that people may be expecting Ganon's bair to be weaker later in the animation, as many other attacks behave that way.

 

[G13_Flux]

i think the thing with ganons aerials is the combination of power, speed, coverage, and disjoint. theyre not neccesarily the most powerful aerials, nor the quickest, but when you throw a crap ton of disjoint on all of them, and make them all have really good coverage, low aerial endlag, and do enough damage to at least keep him relatively safe on shield, it adds up to some pretty stacked moves.

except for dair. dair literally is the most powerful aerial, ever.

 

[Player -0]

No it's just super funny/funky it stays out forever

 

[CORY]

Five frames is forever?

 

[Bazkip]

Five frames is forever?

It's six frames

 

[nimigoha]

He kinda deserves it though.

Looks at Falcon's Nair, 6 and 10

Looks at Ganon's Nair that was cloned from Falcon's Nair, 2 and 2

Yeah.

 

[Bazkip]

He kinda deserves it though.

Looks at Falcon's Nair, 6 and 10

Looks at Ganon's Nair that was cloned from Falcon's Nair, 2 and 2

Yeah.

I'm forever going to be salty about that nerf

 

[PlateProp]

not gonna lie

pmdt really dropped the ball on that one

 

[Jonyc128]

Never understood people who say Falcon doesn't have a projectile

Have you seen his nair? Kappa

 

[CORY]

It's six frames

Shut up, nerd.

 

[Bazkip]

Shut up, nerd.

Learn to count, scrub

 

[shairn]

It's six frames

CORY should just add +1 frame to whatever amount of active frames he thinks an attack has and he'll be right

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

what is sonic's matchup spread

on paper sonic seems like a really good character, but I feel like he might suffer from squirtle/melee mario syndrome where the stubbiness of his limbs isn't offset by how mobile he is. or they theoretically offset and one can treat speed = range in an ideal situation but making that conversion work at the current lower level we're at is difficult

 

[DrinkingFood]

what is sonic's matchup spread

on paper sonic seems like a really good character, but I feel like he might suffer from squirtle/melee mario syndrome where the stubbiness of his limbs isn't offset by how mobile he is. or they theoretically offset and one can treat speed = range in an ideal situation but making that conversion work at the current lower level we're at is difficult

you can't be melee mario on argument of stubbiness when melee mario's issue was being all around mediocre

sonic is dramatically faster, with safe shine-like tools (DACG for guaranteed grabs on shield from a frame 2 or 3 option, wavedash out of side-b), and great tools for avoiding excessive punishment and for recovering

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

you can't be melee mario on argument of stubbiness when melee mario's issue was being all around mediocre

sonic is dramatically faster, with safe shine-like tools (DACG for guaranteed grabs on shield from a frame 2 or 3 option, wavedash out of side-b), and great tools for avoiding excessive punishment and for recovering

ok yeah ignore that part bout mario

 

[Player -0]

Sonic is amazing.

I'm hype for the day when punishes are optimized.

 

[JesteRace]

Speaking of Sonic. GabPR, the #1 player in Puerto Rico, just won his first tourney in the US, in South Florida. Beat up a bunch of their top players, including Noghrilla, Jfyst, and Hero of Time. He plays Sonic. The videos are all up on the South Florida PM YouTube page. He plays Sonic like I've never seen, in neutral and punish game. I recommend watching a set or two.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

gabpr's sonic made me happy because he made sonic look like an actual character that wasn't just sideb or downb in neutral and it made me happy and scared to see sonic played like an actual character because sonic is good

 

[DrinkingFood]

why does gabpr dair into jab. like he got ten million uthrow dairs on noghrilla and all he did after was jab and noghrilla could have easily CC'd the jabs into something... like shield->grab to cover other options. of all the other options he has, he picks like the worst one and it kinda works cause I guess noghrilla doesn't CC much or something. Idk it disappointed me a little bit. there was huge potential there for some hella follow-ups

 

[eideeiit]

Has anyone ever looked into CGing Jiggs with kIrby dthrow? I noticed this just now while messing around and it seems to work like REALLY well (30-160%). My testing may just suck tho.

Seems to be somewhat close to frame perfect before like 70 %

It looks like a grab on Jiggs with Kirby at 70% is guaranteed death. The chaingrab seems to last till like 150, when an ftilt should finish the stock. Still needs testing with DIs, rests and jump outs tho.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Still needs testing with DIs

you should never ever bother testing chaingrabs without DI lol

exceptions are if a DI mix-up exists, but that wouldn't work for kirby's slow dthrow

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Volt-Ikazuchi Oh, why were you talking about uair?
Bair is stronger than uair, though uair is likely a better move due to having more utility.

I was talking about Uair because my eyesight is really, really bad and I could swear we were talking about the last active frames of Uair that pretty much sends you at a physics-defying angle. Uair is pretty much a jack of all trades in Ganon's air game, but if I need people flying at that angle and fast, I'd rather use Bair if I can.
Sorry for the confusion though.


That Nair nerf was a complete overkill too. 2 active frames is just silly.

I didn't even knew Jigglypuff could be chaingrabbed. That could be funny if it can't be escaped with DI, but unlikely.

 

[GabPR]

why does gabpr dair into jab. like he got ten million uthrow dairs on noghrilla and all he did after was jab and noghrilla could have easily CC'd the jabs into something... like shield->grab to cover other options. of all the other options he has, he picks like the worst one and it kinda works cause I guess noghrilla doesn't CC much or something. Idk it disappointed me a little bit. there was huge potential there for some hella follow-ups

Your right, I was aware it was possible for him to CC and avoid the jabs entirely, it was possibly better and safer to follow up with other stuff like a direct regrab, side b into something, down b (at higher percents) into a continuation, etc. Since I noticed he was not crouch canceling the jabs though, I continued using it as my follow up of choice since it racked up some extra damage before a regrab.

 

[FreeGamer]

Has anyone ever looked into CGing Jiggs with kIrby dthrow? I noticed this just now while messing around and it seems to work like REALLY well (30-160%). My testing may just suck tho.

Seems to be somewhat close to frame perfect before like 70 %

It looks like a grab on Jiggs with Kirby at 70% is guaranteed death. The chaingrab seems to last till like 150, when an ftilt should finish the stock. Still needs testing with DIs, rests and jump outs tho.

I wouldn't count on it. Better to jab immediately after the throw and see how the Puff reacts.

 

[eideeiit]

Spoiler

Not like I didn't test for DI at all. Just not exhaustively you know.
But so far I've found out that provided frame perfect inputs, DI away-down (the throw's angle is about 45° so it's pretty optimal i think)...
at 10%: tech chase for kirby, Jiggs can't jump out
at 20%:tech chase for kirby, Jiggs can jump out
at 30%:tech chase or jabs for Kirby, Jiggs can't jump out
at 40%:tech chase or jabs, Jiggs can jump out

provided frame perfect inputs, DI in-up
at 10%: rest for jiggs if kirby does anything offensive or stands
at 20%: same as above
at 30%: anything offensive and standing but jabs can be rested
at 40%: same as above



It appears to be a pretty weird situation. Resting Kirby just as he grabs seems to be possible pretty often, but if kirby's a frame late you just rested air. Lots of options for both sides.

hurggh. Why did I did I waste 2 hours of my life for this?

Anyway, seems like dthrow to jabs is good from 30% onwards, regrabs I didn't test that throughly, but at 100% they seem to become guaranteed with frame perfect regrabs and I think they go on for a good while and can end with an ftilt finisher as I've already said.

I'm a bad tester etc.

 

[D e l t a]

The real question is why would Jiggs allow herself to get grabbed by Kirby in the first place?

 

[Warzenschwein]

a smart kirby player will always use default color vs jiggs to confuse his opponent and get ez grabs... how hasn't anyone taken this into account, tier list speculation being shallow as always smh

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Pit can downthrow chaingrab light floaties like Kirby and Puff if they don't know to DI up and in. Then they get hit by one aerial.

 

[DiZZ]

why does gabpr dair into jab. like he got ten million uthrow dairs on noghrilla and all he did after was jab and noghrilla could have easily CC'd the jabs into something... like shield->grab to cover other options. of all the other options he has, he picks like the worst one and it kinda works cause I guess noghrilla doesn't CC much or something. Idk it disappointed me a little bit. there was huge potential there for some hella follow-ups

Dair causes you to tumble and forces a tech everytime I tried to sdi punish it but was messing it up a good bit the jabs where his best option imo allows for a regrab if missed the sdi I can link an attempt where I sdied out tried to dair and failled to fastfall https://youtu.be/F02f-X5o9hM?t=570

 

[JesteRace]

Guys, there should be two separate spots on the tier list for Melee skin Link and Brawl skin Link. Melee skin Link being around the #25 spot or wherever he belongs and Brawl skin Link being right below Bowser. Not kappa at all. This is serious.