Tier List Speculation

[JesteRace]

Didn't Pit get a ton of changes in 3.6? We're none of them meaningful?

 

[Kipcom]

Didn't Pit get a ton of changes in 3.6? We're none of them meaningful?

Here is a decent post on how Pit's 3.6 changes can be viewed.
http://smashboards.com/threads/general-pit-discussion-thread.415639/page-3#post-20403728

Down throw was meaningful. I like it compared to 3.5 and don't really have any issues with it.
Down tilt was sped up a bit. It was nice, but some people still find it too slow. I don't really have a negative opinion on it though.
Down B is coo too. I also like the aerial arrows
The other buffs don't really feel meaningful or different.

A lot of his other important stuff was actually nerfed going into 3.6 because why not. Definitely triggers me when people try to tell me this character got nothing but buffs going into 3.6 lmao

 

[trash?]

"NAME A DIRTSHEET MATCHUP" is a pretty weird argument when the entire point being made is that this game is so varied and populated in viability that none of those matchups are set in stone as of yet

likewise, the burden of proof isn't on other people to discuss claims you made, if you think your main's bad you should be able to talk about why that is. ppl might get mad at ripple's opinion on DDD, or odds' opinion on bowser, but they often back it up every time when explaining how top tiers dunk the two

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Actually snake is a mu where luigi shouldn't really be wavedashing that much since tranq can punish the startup lag that wavedash has. I'd say even, but snake's improved air mobility really makes it easy for snake to sticky Luigi in the air and keep him juggled with uair/utilts. I think its a pretty annoying mu overall, but I can agree on 50:50 if Luigi plays slower and a bit campier.

 

[JesteRace]

I don't know who actually wins the MU, but as Luigi, I can't really think of a more infuriating matchup than Snake. Except for maybe campy Foxes and Diddys.

Inb4 "Luigi is infuriating for everyone else so suck it"

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Actually snake is a mu where luigi shouldn't really be wavedashing that much since tranq can punish the startup lag that wavedash has. I'd say even, but snake's improved air mobility really makes it easy for snake to sticky Luigi in the air and keep him juggled with uair/utilts. I think its a pretty annoying mu overall, but I can agree on 50:50 if Luigi plays slower and a bit campier.

yeah like I didn't mean wavedashing in neutral but you can bypass snake's normal methods of stage control and just kinda zip under him when he's either in the air or not in a direct line where tranq can work

but yeah fireball camping does a lot and so does fireball waveland
if you look at otek vs prof otek literally got a conversion every single time he did a fireball waveland (granted, this could be for other reasons aside from that but still, it's a good tool)

 

[Journal]

Someone put Bowser 20th so... That's interesting.

Someone put DDD 21st.

Mewtwo, as highlighted, was 3rd on one and 38th on two.

There are a lot of questionable placings. I think that those kinds of ballots were submitted by people who either don't understand certain characters or counterplay to them or how to play effectively as them.

It's something though. Still think that "real data" should be coming from matchup spreads. If someone can't tell me Pikachu's matchup spread then I don't see why their opinion on his tier placing should be taken seriously.

PMU labeled it "1.0" which is very very apt.

It functions pretty well as "this is what's currently happening" though which is like ultimately what most tier lists do. We're eons away from an accurate theoretical their list.

I'm trying to keep up with this thread right now, and I'd just like to comment on this post. A lot of placements are region dependent. I'm from Colorado, our top player (Just) is an Ike main, and we have a ton of Ikes, and people here are convinced he's broken. We also have a lot of people who consider Zelda one of the best in the game due to how well one of our players, Romance, does with her. People's views of characters seem to be largely shaped by what they see.

 

[Idostuff]

I find the region thing kinda funny. In NYC we have the best Zelda, Mario, M2, and Ness players (yeah Steriokidd moved to Florida, but him/boiko still count), yet I'm pretty sure nobody here considers those characters broken.

 

[D e l t a]

Nobody will ever trump MI for "region bias"

We have Anther (Pika), Dirtboy (Squirtle), Tetra (Kirby), JZ (Ivy), Yata (Snake)

And nobody in MI thinks any of those characters are broken, despite our PR having some of, if not the best users of those characters

 

[Journal]

See, you guys say that, but we've already seen the variability in that community tier list, with some instances like game and watch placement being affected by region.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I don't know who actually wins the MU, but as Luigi, I can't really think of a more infuriating matchup than Snake. Except for maybe campy Foxes and Diddys.

Inb4 "Luigi is infuriating for everyone else so suck it"

nah marth, falcon, and shiek are still more infuriating
also bowser because despite being bad and obviously so bowser has a lot of surprising tools to mess with luigi, luigi bowser is generally considered pretty even from what I've read on luigi skype

 

[steelguttey]

in long island we have the second best zelda and everyone here thinks shes broken as hell

my region blows

 

[Life]

Luigi is one of the easiest characters to hit with Bowser's 23% damage uair.

This doesn't mean the matchup goes in any particular direction, I just like bringing up Bowser's ridiculously hard-hitting uair sometimes.

 

[DMG]

Snake doesn't win MU's, he wins hearts

Marth is close to the outer cusp of solo viability, I think there are too many MU's that come down to the wire for him but if ur god then you can manage

 

[Star ☆]

Gonna take a stab at this:

Lucario
Samus
G&W
Ganon
Bowser
Yoshi
Sonic
Olimar
IC's
Luigi
Jiggs
Charizard
Peach
Roy
Pit
Mew2

Understandably I think some of those are closer to even, but I'd be curious to hear your input.

From my experience, I believe Sonic wins versus Snake. Probably only about 55:45 though. Snake doesn't have the tools to prevent Sonic from landing grabs and as such, Sonic can start throw combos with ease onstage. Snake's mines/projectiles are easily beaten by running shield, which is extenuated by the distance Sonic slides when he does so. Sonic also does well to edgeguard Snake from the side with his back air and forward air. This matchup requires a little less spinning than most as you will likely trade with grenades or get tranqed. I could talk more in detail if requested, just thought I'd provide a little purview.

Don't take my word on this, but Snake mains that I know have told me that Olimar is a losing matchup for Snake. I'll see if I can get them to provide their analysis on the matchup.

 

[steelguttey]

oli snake is slightly in olis favor i think

oli has one of the easiest and non commital ways of getting rid of mines with side b, sure the pikmin will die but who cares snake just lost 50% of his stage control tools

snake can air camp olimar but that can only go on for so long before oli can catch him with a forward air, snake also doesnt have any fast options for dealing with pikmin really

we all know how edgeguarding oli goes but oli can edgeguard snake quite well because of how fast fair is, fsmash can snipe down b stalls too.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I decided to browse this thread a bit because I was curious what people thought about the recently released PMU tier list. I figured it might be worth dropping a few relevant charts of mine here for anyone who might find them interesting or useful.


First off, this is a tiered version of my contribution to the PMU tier list project. I'd never really distilled my thoughts into a tier list before, so it was a fun exercise. Unlike most tier lists, I tried not construct it to depict the current metagame. Instead, with a lot of thought put into character potential, many characters were shifted upward or downward based on where I think they might be in a metagame of Project M's future. For all intents and purposes, I do not consider this list close to finished. I'm not very stubborn or confident about the list, and would be willing to change many placings substantially. With that in mind, don't quote me on these placements. I'd be curious to hear what characters you guys consider to have a lot of untapped potential. That's certainly the case with many unpopular characters.

Secondly, I think investigating how match-up charts relate/correlate to tier list placements is really interesting, so I'm dropping off an Ivysaur match-up chart I made quickly a couple weeks ago and shared in the Ivysaur skype group upon their request. The people in that group seemed to agree with it overall, so it is probably a quite accurate representation of Ivy's meta from the perspective of her player-base. I'm pretty confident in it, and can't imagine it has many drastic flaws, but I'm still totally open to suggestions.

(Note: the characters within the tiers are ordered alphabetically. If they were ordered by individual difficulty, Falco would be first.)

One important piece of info I think is useful for everyone to stay mindful of in these kinds of discussions, is that it matters just as much what characters someone loses to, as how many characters overall they lose to. A match up spread with few negatives can be a lot worse than it appears if those negatives are against the most popular/potent characters in the game.

 

[eideeiit]

I decided to browse this thread a bit because I was curious what people thought about the recently released PMU tier list. I figured it might be worth dropping a few relevant charts of mine here for anyone who might find them interesting or useful.


First off, this is a tiered version of my contribution to the PMU tier list project. I'd never really distilled my thoughts into a tier list before, so it was a fun exercise. Unlike most tier lists, I tried not construct it to depict the current metagame. Instead, with a lot of thought put into character potential, many characters were shifted upward or downward based on where I think they might be in a metagame of Project M's future. For all intents and purposes, I do not consider this list close to finished. I'm not very stubborn or confident about the list, and would be willing to change many placings substantially. With that in mind, don't quote me on these placements. I'd be curious to hear what characters you guys consider to have a lot of untapped potential. That's certainly the case with many unpopular characters.

Secondly, I think investigating how match-up charts relate/correlate to tier list placements is really interesting, so I'm dropping off an Ivysaur match-up chart I made quickly a couple weeks ago and shared in the Ivysaur skype group upon their request. The people in that group seemed to agree with it overall, so it is probably a quite accurate representation of Ivy's meta from the perspective of her player-base. I'm pretty confident in it, and can't imagine it has many drastic flaws, but I'm still totally open to suggestions.

(Note: the characters within the tiers are ordered alphabetically. If they were ordered by individual difficulty, Falco would be first.)

One important piece of info I think is useful for everyone to stay mindful of in these kinds of discussions, is that it matters just as much what characters someone loses to, as how many characters overall they lose to. A match up spread with few negatives can be a lot worse than it appears if those negatives are against the most popular/potent characters in the game.

About that MU spread, could you elaborate on Kirby and Samus? I've been under the impression that in many MUs it feels like Ivy gets outcamped when playing that way and approaching on the other hand is very unsafe, but I think Kirby can't really challenge Ivy's camping or rush her down well enough and that even though Samus's missiles are probably very tough for Ivy, she can outpunish her and hold her own as long as she doesn't let Samus set up the missiles too easy.

Obligatory "i know nuttin tho"

 

[Saproling]

Machiavelli.CF Why do you think we beat PK kids? I could see going even with Ness but Lucas im really questioning so if you could go into that I would appreciate it.

 

[Deleted member]

Since Marth is so high, does that mean that he can be solo mained just like his Melee counterpart? I personally don't feel that way, because his MU spread became a lot worst overall due to the harsh environment in PM. That's just me, but do you think that Marth needs a second character? I try to ask this question, but the character discussion boards seems dead at the moment...

i'll try to answer this without going into the tank too deep. the short answer is that marth doesnt need a second character because marth IS the second character. marth is not solo viable because he has a few critical weaknesses that become readily apparent over a long tournament day. the first is that you can sit down to a random opponent and lose at the character select screen, since marth has a handful of really bad MUs like DDD, ZSS, MK, mewtwo, ROB, etc *assuming they know the MU*, as well as a lot of MUs you lose marginally like fox, CF, whatever. marths MU spread is overall very good and very bad at the same time, because his two main tools are DD abuse and attacking your attacks. any time marth can dashdance you out of the game (ganondorf) or he can reliably attack your attacks (peach, luigi) he probably ****ing bodies those characters. any time after this he becomes hilariously shallow and has a hard time winning without those tools. so basically you dont want to play marth game 1 vs a random opponent, but he also has a chunk of the cast that he beats for free, provided the right situation arises- this is the essence of a CP character and bowser is pretty much the same way.

marth also gets much worse in a real event outside of super theory bros. you can say "marth beats most of the characters in the game that means he's really good" but thats stupidly facile to the point of comedy. you're ignoring counterpicks, novelty, tournament fatigue, all sorts of things- prof can say snake doesnt "win MUs" but he gets tons of free margin because lots of players even good ones have no idea what to do vs snake, and his CP options are amazing, and his survivability means you have much more room for error and mistakes WILL happen on tournament day. this is also why i think falco is overrated, in a bracket the goal is to go X-1 or X-0 and falco is simply not forgiving enough defensively to cover for that, eventually you will mess up and get OHKOd where other characters would not and you'll get like 5th "with a top tier lol". marth isnt quite as bad as falco in this regard but you have to consider that A marth still has a pretty bad combo weight and recovery B pretty much everyone in your bracket knows what to do vs marth except bad ivysaur players C you can play clean and hit your opponents and STILL get punished for not hitting with the tip of the sword and D marth gets a LOT worse when you have to change your gameplan for whatever reason to something other than DD Them Out Of The Game And Attack Their Attacks. you will routinely have way less margin for error than other characters and a way more volatile MU spread, which is generally not a good thing (unless it's your CP) when your plan for winning the tournament is to never lose more than one set.

similarly to falco with fox, theres very little reason to actually play marth (or roy for that matter) over metaknight. you could argue that falco's lasers shut down faster fat characters harder than fox's dashdance does like DK or charizard or maybe you'll find an opponent with a poor understanding of DI, but for the most part a smart player would much rather have fox's toolkit in a blind set for a fat number of reasons. metaknight is the same way- metaknight is better at dashdancing people out of the game, can still attack their attacks almost as well, but is pretty clearly a net gain between the two and metaknight also has a better generalized MU spread, less blind **** MUs, doesnt get CPd as hard (lol when dreamland is still legal), doesnt have to place more specific hitboxes to perform well, and does better vs the more relevant characters because his speed is more relevant when the better half of the game is also the faster half of the game. the only real time you'd want to play marth over Mk is when your plan is to attack their attacks better than MK can, which is again basically CP territory. while we're talking about net gains, you also need a good reason to pick say TL over diddy. this isn't to say that TL or falco or marth are bad, all 3 are pretty much certainly in the top half of the game. its just more like diddy fox and MK do what they want to do better in a meaningful way.

when making the comparison to melee marth, melee marths upthrow is a OHKO vs half the relevant cast (fox, falco, and the marth mirror), he has double everyone else's range, opposing recovery options are way less flexible, and stages are generally much smaller. in this environment, marth is way more powerful because dashdancing people out of the game and attacking their attacks leads to a punish game that is a million times better and the margin you're losing out on goes way down. marth feels limited in PM because "you cant **** up" so to speak but in melee its the exact opposite and if you **** up vs marth youre just really really dead. marth is absolutely top tier in melee. PMs environment changes that dramatically- and for the better tbh. the truth is that marths toolkit is either mediocre or incredibly stifling and obnoxious and almost nowhere inbetween those two extremes. marth is not a top tier in PM and you wouldnt want him to be one because any time marth's toolkit makes him a top tier also basically means that 70%+ of the cast is instantly unplayable simply because they're in the same game as a character that entirely invalidates them.

edit- i also disagree with the idea that marth loses to yoshi since yoshi has a really hard time with dashdance abuse, but if for whatever reason you start trying to attack yoshis attacks youre going to get ****ed up really fast. similarly marth does okay vs sheik and that MU is pretty even. you have to know what your tools are really well to perform with marth at top level and which ones to play to- hes not quite as extreme as CF but its a lot closer than people think, its just not as obvious because you can "look at all these" them in terms of advantages which are really different versions of the same thing. if your idea of evaluating marth is free play on random stages with your friends then marth is going to look like a really good character. any time you're in a real bracket, you could sit down to someone you don't know and get dumpstered game 1 because they play something you've never seen before, or they randomly play CF and DD you out of the game right back, or you banned delfino's secret and distant planet every set because you basically have to only to get bodied by a snap CP as bowser to fountain of dreams, etc. theres just tons of ways to lose past the MU chart and often you wont understand them well until round 3 of winners bracket.

 

[nimigoha]

Regional bias is hilarious. Ontario has an Ike at the top of the PR, every absolutely ****ing hates him and thinks he's broken. I've seen Ontario players' tier lists where DK is a top 10 character (Fire is like 4 on the PR right now).

 

[DMG]

If people start to run character first more, you won't run into the situation of banning DP / Delfino every set and coming up against secret Bowser. Marth's a lot more stable when he can accurately ban out + when he can't get flipped over by a more extreme small stage char on his pick

 

[JesteRace]

Character first is the way to go. And while I agree with the rest of Umbreon's rambles, I can't agree that Marth is hurt by PM's stagelist. Unless your stagelist is skewed towards large stages, in which case... like, don't do that. And even then, he still can actually ban his bad stages as opposed to having to deal with Dreamland in literally every 3/5 set.

 

[PlateProp]

If people start to run character first more, you won't run into the situation of banning DP / Delfino every set and coming up against secret Bowser. Marth's a lot more stable when he can accurately ban out + when he can't get flipped over by a more extreme small stage char on his pick

I wouldnt have to ban DS if TO's would stop being dumb and having it legal

 

[DMG]

Character first is the way to go. And while I agree with the rest of Umbreon's rambles, I can't agree that Marth is hurt by PM's stagelist. Unless your stagelist is skewed towards large stages, in which case... like, don't do that. And even then, he still can actually ban his bad stages as opposed to having to deal with Dreamland in literally every 3/5 set.

Well conversely Marth now can't obtain FD/Yoshi for free in 3/5 sets. The DL deficit may not be huge (how many DL chars scare Marth?), but not getting his best CP stages is no bueno

 

[Kulty]

i'll try to answer this without going into the tank too deep. the short answer is that marth doesnt need a second character because marth IS the second character. marth is not solo viable because he has a few critical weaknesses that become readily apparent over a long tournament day. the first is that you can sit down to a random opponent and lose at the character select screen, since marth has a handful of really bad MUs like DDD, ZSS, MK, mewtwo, ROB, etc *assuming they know the MU*, as well as a lot of MUs you lose marginally like fox, CF, whatever. marths MU spread is overall very good and very bad at the same time, because his two main tools are DD abuse and attacking your attacks. any time marth can dashdance you out of the game (ganondorf) or he can reliably attack your attacks (peach, luigi) he probably ****ing bodies those characters. any time after this he becomes hilariously shallow and has a hard time winning without those tools. so basically you dont want to play marth game 1 vs a random opponent, but he also has a chunk of the cast that he beats for free, provided the right situation arises- this is the essence of a CP character and bowser is pretty much the same way.

marth also gets much worse in a real event outside of super theory bros. you can say "marth beats most of the characters in the game that means he's really good" but thats stupidly facile to the point of comedy. you're ignoring counterpicks, novelty, tournament fatigue, all sorts of things- prof can say snake doesnt "win MUs" but he gets tons of free margin because lots of players even good ones have no idea what to do vs snake, and his CP options are amazing, and his survivability means you have much more room for error and mistakes WILL happen on tournament day. this is also why i think falco is overrated, in a bracket the goal is to go X-1 or X-0 and falco is simply not forgiving enough defensively to cover for that, eventually you will mess up and get OHKOd where other characters would not and you'll get like 5th "with a top tier lol". marth isnt quite as bad as falco in this regard but you have to consider that A marth still has a pretty bad combo weight and recovery B pretty much everyone in your bracket knows what to do vs marth except bad ivysaur players C you can play clean and hit your opponents and STILL get punished for not hitting with the tip of the sword and D marth gets a LOT worse when you have to change your gameplan for whatever reason to something other than DD Them Out Of The Game And Attack Their Attacks. you will routinely have way less margin for error than other characters and a way more volatile MU spread, which is generally not a good thing (unless it's your CP) when your plan for winning the tournament is to never lose more than one set.

similarly to falco with fox, theres very little reason to actually play marth (or roy for that matter) over metaknight. you could argue that falco's lasers shut down faster fat characters harder than fox's dashdance does like DK or charizard or maybe you'll find an opponent with a poor understanding of DI, but for the most part a smart player would much rather have fox's toolkit in a blind set for a fat number of reasons. metaknight is the same way- metaknight is better at dashdancing people out of the game, can still attack their attacks almost as well, but is pretty clearly a net gain between the two and metaknight also has a better generalized MU spread, less blind **** MUs, doesnt get CPd as hard (lol when dreamland is still legal), doesnt have to place more specific hitboxes to perform well, and does better vs the more relevant characters because his speed is more relevant when the better half of the game is also the faster half of the game. the only real time you'd want to play marth over Mk is when your plan is to attack their attacks better than MK can, which is again basically CP territory. while we're talking about net gains, you also need a good reason to pick say TL over diddy. this isn't to say that TL or falco or marth are bad, all 3 are pretty much certainly in the top half of the game. its just more like diddy fox and MK do what they want to do better in a meaningful way.

when making the comparison to melee marth, melee marths upthrow is a OHKO vs half the relevant cast (fox, falco, and the marth mirror), he has double everyone else's range, opposing recovery options are way less flexible, and stages are generally much smaller. in this environment, marth is way more powerful because dashdancing people out of the game and attacking their attacks leads to a punish game that is a million times better and the margin you're losing out on goes way down. marth feels limited in PM because "you cant **** up" so to speak but in melee its the exact opposite and if you **** up vs marth youre just really really dead. marth is absolutely top tier in melee. PMs environment changes that dramatically- and for the better tbh. the truth is that marths toolkit is either mediocre or incredibly stifling and obnoxious and almost nowhere inbetween those two extremes. marth is not a top tier in PM and you wouldnt want him to be one because any time marth's toolkit makes him a top tier also basically means that 70%+ of the cast is instantly unplayable simply because they're in the same game as a character that entirely invalidates them.

edit- i also disagree with the idea that marth loses to yoshi since yoshi has a really hard time with dashdance abuse, but if for whatever reason you start trying to attack yoshis attacks youre going to get ****ed up really fast. similarly marth does okay vs sheik and that MU is pretty even. you have to know what your tools are really well to perform with marth at top level and which ones to play to- hes not quite as extreme as CF but its a lot closer than people think, its just not as obvious because you can "look at all these" them in terms of advantages which are really different versions of the same thing. if your idea of evaluating marth is free play on random stages with your friends then marth is going to look like a really good character. any time you're in a real bracket, you could sit down to someone you don't know and get dumpstered game 1 because they play something you've never seen before, or they randomly play CF and DD you out of the game right back, or you banned delfino's secret and distant planet every set because you basically have to only to get bodied by a snap CP as bowser to fountain of dreams, etc. theres just tons of ways to lose past the MU chart and often you wont understand them well until round 3 of winners bracket.

Wow... That's a really detailed explanation. Thanks. I don't plan to take PM as seriously as Smash 4, but it's just that I'm sick of some characters such as Fox and MK. It's not that I hate them, but it's just that they're everywhere and they can almost beat anyone (if they have good knowledge of the character of course). I like to play underrated characters in PM and do good things with them. Personally, I feel that Marth is not a character that can win big tournaments unlike his Melee counterpart, because he struggles a lot. At the same time, it's fine, because like I've been told before, the MU spread is not that bad for many characters. They are little to no unwinnable MUs in the game, which is good and that proves that the game is balanced. I like Smash games that give me a sense of freedom when I choose a character, because you can win with whoever you want, no matter if they're low-tier or not. I feel that in this game and Smash 4 (not to the same extent as PM, but it still does a good job).

 

[JesteRace]

Well conversely Marth now can't obtain FD/Yoshi for free in 3/5 sets. The DL deficit may not be huge (how many DL chars scare Marth?), but not getting his best CP stages is no bueno

Uhhh... Every character has to settle for their 3rd best CP? Still not seeing the issue.

Also, I think FD is wildly overrated for Marth outside of like, 4-5 matchups, but we ain't gotta get into that.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

now that people are actually talking about matchup spread and the existence of matchup variability I hope people can actually start adopting tiercharts rather than lists because a character's success as a solo main is dependent both of overall matchup spread and the prevalence of bad matchups

given a character that has all 50:50 matchups vs a character like marth, the character with all 50:50 matchups and a few 45:55 in either direction is going to be more viable as a solo main than a character that both wins some things 60:40 but also loses some things 60:40

 

[Frost | Odds]

Can people name more than 5 MUs that DDD wins.

Checkmate

marth roy fox pit bowser dk rob yoshi zard sheik gnw etc

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

ddd bops kirby or so I've heard


real talk, does kirby have a worse mu spread than bowser?

 

[eideeiit]

Frost | Odds I can't buy Zard, Sheik and GnW. You have lot of experience with Zard so idk about him but GnW with his bacon and stuff.. You gotta elaborate man please.

 

[D e l t a]

ddd bops kirby or so I've heard


real talk, does kirby have a worse mu spread than bowser?

Only in Melee. In PM, Kirby can keep up with faster characters, abuse duck by having a usable Dtilt, mixups on recovery, gimp setups, tech chases, etc.

Compare that to Bowser. While speed increases were helpful in a sense from 3.5, Bowser now dies earlier from size / weight change, still gets juggled with litte to no escape options (lowered armor on Nair was big), and overall has a worse neutral game. Bowser's neutral used to be more gimmicky and he could keep up with some characters because loldashattackarmor. Now, Bowser has to work at immaculate spacing and reads to even keep up with faster opponents: Sonic, Lucas, Fox, etc. He doesn't have solid answers to projectiles either. His tech roll isn't too bad, but the ground distance covered is not that great due to the relation of his hurtboxes from where he would tech roll in/out to where he would tech in place.

Frost | Odds I can't buy Zard, Sheik and GnW. You have lot of experience with Zard so idk about him but GnW with his bacon and stuff.. You gotta elaborate man please.

I can speak partly on behalf of DDD. Ftilt cuts thru bacon and DDD's Dair goes straight thru GnW's UpB. GnW has to commit towards catching DDD in the air unless he uses bacon, which DDD's Dair also goes thru. DDD's minions are also hella annoying to deal with as GnW since they disrupt bacon and the tiny area that GnW dash dances inside of. DDD can wall out GnW fast with waddles and get in even faster with waddle dashing.

Aside from an easier time getting combos into judgement hammer, DDD dies like 30%+ later on average compared to everyone else, from combos into Nair. Meanwhile, DDD can juggle GnW and brutally ledge guard him.

The matchup is basically: Can GnW consistently force DDD into bad positions and/or combo to death without getting hit by waddles, Ftilt, and grab?
Now this applies to almost all of DDD's MUs; however, in the case vs GnW, he doesn't have a solid answer in neutral to get in on DDD. Even when GnW finds openings, DDD just absorbs all the damage and generally lives extremely long, while taking GnW's stocks around 80-100%

 

[CORY]

Bowser now dies earlier from size / weight change

i don't ever remember seeing him have a weight change in the patchnotes. afaik, this is up to date and he's still at 118, which he's always been at.

and you're not the first person i've read saying that his weight was lowered with his size decrease. was it somewhere in the 3.6 patchnotes that i missed?

 

[JesteRace]

ddd bops kirby or so I've heard


real talk, does kirby have a worse mu spread than bowser?

Well, Kirby actually wins a few MU's... so no.

 

[Rᴏb]

LOL there is no way in hell DDD beats G&W

 

[Strong Badam]

i don't ever remember seeing him have a weight change in the patchnotes. afaik, this is up to date and he's still at 118, which he's always been at.

and you're not the first person i've read saying that his weight was lowered with his size decrease. was it somewhere in the 3.6 patchnotes that i missed?

It was not changed.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

How does ivy beat charizard? I thought fire was super effective vs grass

 

[Kulty]

Guys,

What are your thoughts on the tier list that was recently released on the main page of SmashBoards: http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-underground-and-reslived-present-project-m-v3-6-tier-list.426830/. I`m not an expert or anything like that, but let me know what you guys think?

 

[DMG]

Uhhh... Every character has to settle for their 3rd best CP? Still not seeing the issue.

Also, I think FD is wildly overrated for Marth outside of like, 4-5 matchups, but we ain't gotta get into that.

Some chars 3rd best CP choices are weaker than others. Not a surprise that Marth may not be as universally usable or dominant on stages like Diddy/Fox/MK/etc can be. He's not a weak character but you may have to actively seek the advantage vs... well just having it (chars better than him)

FD is plenty good against a lot of chars. Chain grab whoever, tech chase people with bad tech rolls (and not give them a platform DI out), slowly maintain juggle advantage vs chars more reliant on plats to save them, room to out DD many chars, etc. I mean sure, maybe you should have some respect trying to take CF/MK/others there, but it's pretty bueno

Marth's biggest claim to fame might be randomly winning against decent chars like G^W Wario etc. Not sure his Spacie MU's are as relevant, with how dynamic the cast operates already.

 

[xquqx]

Guys,

What are your thoughts on the tier list that was recently released on the main page of SmashBoards: http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-underground-and-reslived-present-project-m-v3-6-tier-list.426830/. I`m not an expert or anything like that, but let me know what you guys think?

This is the same list as the one we've been talking about for the last page or two, just go back and reread that stuff.