Tier List Speculation

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

LOL there is no way in hell DDD beats G&W

>makes claim
>provides no argument to back it up

also @Machiavelli.CF
why does ivy lose relatively hard to kirby
and why does ivy beat icies so hard

 

[Saproling]

>makes claim
>provides no argument to back it up

also @Machiavelli.CF
why does ivy lose relatively hard to kirby
and why does ivy beat icies so hard

No dash dance makes it easy to catch kill separate nana.landing up airs and junk can result in double charge/heal gained. its easy to keep nana locked in a spot and away with leaf. Overall they just have trouble staying to gather let alone contesting Ivys kit.

 

[ilysm]

To my knowledge Icies lose to Ivy mostly because they don't have any reliable way to deal with Razor Leaf, and also it can be easy for her to separate them, especially if she flowers one and not the other. Plus she gets double charge from hitting both of them with a sweet-spotted attack. They can't really organize themselves against her if that makes any sense?

Ninja'd by Saproling. I know when I've been outplayed. ^_^

 

[Rᴏb]

>makes claim
>provides no argument to back it up

>makes claim
>provides no argument to back it up
>pulls out meme-arrows when others do the same

bruh, do you really need me to explain this? explain how a relatively fast character, with insane punishes on most of the cast (especially fatties), an essentially lag-less projectile that occupies air space (aka DDD's home) quite well and leads into just about any combo you want, beats the ooze? Didn't you main DDD at one point? Do I need to pull out his frame data to remind you how slow and disgusting he would be compared to the likes of G&W? Even I think DDD is underrated by most people, but c'mon.

To answer the previous poster's question of "Can GnW consistently force DDD into bad positions and/or combo to death without getting hit by waddles, Ftilt, and grab?", yes, yes x 1000 he can.

 

[FreeGamer]

ddd bops kirby or so I've heard


real talk, does kirby have a worse mu spread than bowser?

no, he actually does win a few of them

as for his bad MUs, i would only consider mewtwo/G&W/rob/TL to be suicide missions. the rest are still winnable in some reasonable capacity

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

How does ivy beat charizard? I thought fire was super effective vs grass

Hidden power Rock. Kappa.

I really don't know. Unless I'm mistaken (Probably am) Char doesn't really deal well with Razor leaf, giving Ivy opportuinities to slam him around to get a Solarbeam charge.

 

[shairn]

Fat char + razor leaf + easy-ass bulb sweetspots = dead char

 

[DrinkingFood]

bruh, do you really need me to explain this? explain how a relatively fast character,

I hope by "relatively fast" you only mean "fast relative to DDD"
because everyone is fast relative to DDD, and GnW is not fast at all by just about any other metric

 

[Rᴏb]

I hope by "relatively fast" you only mean "fast relative to DDD"
because everyone is fast relative to DDD, and GnW is not fast at all by just about any other metric

yes that's what I meant. I was only talking about the G&W vs DDD mu.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

>makes claim
>provides no argument to back it up
>pulls out meme-arrows when others do the same

bruh, do you really need me to explain this? explain how a relatively fast character, with insane punishes on most of the cast (especially fatties), an essentially lag-less projectile that occupies air space (aka DDD's home) quite well and leads into just about any combo you want, beats the ooze? Didn't you main DDD at one point? Do I need to pull out his frame data to remind you how slow and disgusting he would be compared to the likes of G&W? Even I think DDD is underrated by most people, but c'mon.

To answer the previous poster's question of "Can GnW consistently force DDD into bad positions and/or combo to death without getting hit by waddles, Ftilt, and grab?", yes, yes x 1000 he can.

I stated no argument for or against your point I just wanted to see more than what you gave

like I do agree with your points about bacon occupying space that ddd wants to be in but hammer does beat bacon and parachute and nair and ddd wins a cc dtilt war

fox is also super mobile compared to ddd and look at the fox ddd mu
at the moment I'm putting the gnw:ddd mu at 50:50 because they both **** each other up

idk ripple probably says it's an impossible matchup

 

[Ripple]

marth roy fox pit bowser dk rob yoshi zard sheik gnw etc

No to DK, yoshi, and G&W. Hell no to G&W.

And no one has ever played DDD vs pit at high level, it could be even.

But that's still more than 5. ****

 

[Player -0]

I think the point is that bacon allows for safe air occupation and doesn't allow DDD to land unless he commits to an aerial (and even then he might get hit because he's fat penguin).

G&W can abuse the commitment to land or trade hit Up B/Up Air hitbox with DDD's multihit Dair if he's camping top platform. G&W also has better chances challenging DDD when he's recovering due to Nair's huuuuge hitbox/etc.

So G&W essentially beats DDD in his home territory and DDD somewhat has problems dealing on the ground. F-Tilt/stuff can wall but struggles. I think G&W can eventually get in and derp.

Edit - I'd imagine DDD beats Pit. Damage racking is a pain, killing is a pain. Even if Pit DOES win neutral (eh, does he).

My G&W post was going kinda well but meh

 

[CORY]

But that's still more than 5. ****

checkmate, atheists!

 

[Leafeon]

and ddd wins a cc dtilt war

lol

 

[didds]

Yoshi command grab > ddd command grab

Y+ddd command grab < every other command grab in the game

Edit: jk yoshi command grab must be good it goes far and is annoying like laser fox top tier pew

 

[JesteRace]

Alright, guys. "Fighting on Wario Land" tier list. Go.

S tier - Ganon/Bowser/Marth at least
F tier - Falcon/Sonic/Diddy at least.

Y'all fill in the rest

 

[Soft Serve]

Alright, guys. "Fighting on Wario Land" tier list. Go.

S tier - Ganon/Bowser/Marth at least
F tier - Falcon/Sonic/Diddy at least.

Y'all fill in the rest

Diddy is really good on warioland. platform arrangement is great for his combo game, no top center top platform is great for peanut gimmicks and throwing the banana up, wall stages give him access to wall cling for recovery stalls and edge guards. Plus shorter blastzones remove his killing problems.

yeah its a smaller stage so people can get in on campy diddy, but he is also a very small character so relative to his frame the stage isn't that large, so his dash dance controls that much more space but he doesn't physically take up as much space as falcon dash dancing there so it doesn't matter as much. still hard to hit, still hard to catch, still enough room to make things work.

One of his better stages imo

 

[JesteRace]

I guess I was just assuming because of what I see from Junebug. He seems to universally prefer medium/large and flat/open stages.

 

[FreeGamer]

Put Wario in S tier, because home field advantage.

 

[Soft Serve]

I guess I was just assuming because of what I see from Junebug. He seems to universally prefer medium/large and flat/open stages.

because everyone bans warioland against him because they don't want to be taken there by his ganon

but yeah diddy normally does prefer those kinds of stages, but he isn't bad on any stage.

 

[Ripple]

because everyone bans warioland against him because they don't want to be taken there by his ganon

but yeah diddy normally does prefer those kinds of stages, but he isn't bad on any stage.

no one bans wario land against Junebug. you'd rather fight his diddy on large stage than his ganon on WW?

 

[JesteRace]

Do you think we'll ever see Junebug's Ganon again if character first becomes standard?

 

[CORY]

maybe against gnw. he seems to like that matchup.

 

[D e l t a]

It was not changed.

The more you know...

I know Yoshi's was changed so I wouldn't be surprised if Bowser's changed with the update as well

==

re: June going Ganon vs GnW

I've played that MU as GnW and it's not fun. What should GnW be doing to win the MU?

Ganon's aerials go straight thru bacon just like Marth's sword, only they can kill around 80-100 on most stages. The only moves that seem to beat Ganon's aerial approaches are Utilt, and even then it's slow / laggy. Ganon kind of plays around GnW's Dtilt and is usually outside of jab/grab range. Bair & Fair are about the only good moves to get in on and expose Ganon.

 

[Life]

Ganon's aerials might go through bacon, but they'll eat extra hitlag in the process. Does that mean you'll get enough time to shield them? Thinking of his fair specifically here.

 

[Ningildo]

The more you know...

I know Yoshi's was changed so I wouldn't be surprised if Bowser's changed with the update as well

==

re: June going Ganon vs GnW

I've played that MU as GnW and it's not fun. What should GnW be doing to win the MU?

Ganon's aerials go straight thru bacon just like Marth's sword, only they can kill around 80-100 on most stages. The only moves that seem to beat Ganon's aerial approaches are Utilt, and even then it's slow / laggy. Ganon kind of plays around GnW's Dtilt and is usually outside of jab/grab range. Bair & Fair are about the only good moves to get in on and expose Ganon.

I'd have to ask what you're doing throwing out Bacon at a range where Ganon can reach with his poor air mobility and frame 14 Fair and a Nair with only 4 frames of active hitboxes.

I'm not going to pretend to know how this MU plays out, but GaW is a faster character with a projectile against Ganon. That alone makes it seem in GaW's favor.

 

[Player -0]

I could see RAR -> WL/Float shenanigans being spooky. Yolo DACUS to bop any bacon getting out. Once bacon is out problems are had but Ganon can make bacon not out.

idek lol. Hate your life because G&W

 

[Bazkip]

Utilt, and even then it's slow / laggy

wot
It's hitbox is active frame 7.
It also only has 2 frames of cooldown, though it spends 10 active frames in the backwards position which generally won't be beating anything out...but still, 12 frames isn't particularly long.

 

[Ripple]

*off main topic*

can the rankings list for PM PLEASE be reset going into the new year so we can see better trends in 3.6's environment and subsequently make a better tier list in the future?

@Strong Bad

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

if smash had overheads then ganon's utilt would be godlike

as it is it's just kinda an oddly placed hitbox that doesn't see much use

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Alright, guys. "Fighting on Wario Land" tier list. Go.

S tier - Ganon/Bowser/Marth at least
F tier - Falcon/Sonic/Diddy at least.

Y'all fill in the rest

Good luck getting a non-pocket Ganon in Wario Land though. It's like trying to get Little Mac in FD in Sm4sh. Sure, they absolutely dominate the stage, that's why stage bans exist.

On a more serious note, I think Roy would be good there too.

 

[CORY]

if smash had overheads then ganon's utilt would be godlike

as it is it's just kinda an oddly placed hitbox that doesn't see much use

it's a usable hard read move that can kill at, like, 60 ;x especially if they didn't expect the hit and aren't di-ing properly.

hrmmm... thought it had a lower angle, but it looks like it's sakurai degrees. it still wrecks faces when you get the opponent to roll predictably.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

it's a usable hard read move that can kill at, like, 60 ;x especially if they didn't expect the hit and aren't di-ing properly.

hrmmm... thought it had a lower angle, but it looks like it's sakurai degrees. it still wrecks faces when you get the opponent to roll predictably.

I dunno, doesn't Bair outclasses it as a "sakurai angled" move?
And let's be honest here, 90% of Ganon's moveset is designed to either punish, style or both. Almost everything Ganon does needs a hard read. (Or disrespect)

 

[Player -0]

Up tilt sends at a fairly disgusting angle and is suuper strong. It's like an F-Smash.

Bair sends higher (ayy it might not) and is weaker.

Read ledgedash? DISGUSTING LAND STOMP

 

[CORY]

bair (sweetspot):
dmg- 16
bkb- 30
kbg-100
angle- 361

utilt (sweetspots?):
dmg-22 (20)
bkb-50 (75)
kbg-78 (60)
angle-361

i don't know how strongly the growth difference is, but utilt has higher damage and higher bkb than bair, in both of the strong hits, so it'll straight up hit harder out of the gate.

i don't know how sakurai angle works entirely. i know if the opponent is airborne, it sends at a 45 degree angle, but it functions differently on grounded ones (which i'm unsure as to how). if it hits lower than 45, then utilt is pretty much a better killing move up until whatever range of damage allows bair's higher growth to catch up. however, considering what ganon is, that probably isn't really relevant.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Sakurai angle almost never differs from just a plain ~45 degree angle. It might be like 44 I forget. The only technical difference is that below ~30 knockback, the angle is 0 against grounded opponents. But 30 knockback is very low, even at 0 almost no moves have that low knockback.

Also bair's higher growth doesn't ever let it catch up. The damage a move does is also a big factor in knockback scaling with percent. Utilt doing way more damage means its knockback grows more with percent despite bair having a higher knockback growth value.

 

[Bazkip]

bair (sweetspot):
dmg- 16
bkb- 30
kbg-100
angle- 361

utilt (sweetspots?):
dmg-22 (20)
bkb-50 (75)
kbg-78 (60)
angle-361

i don't know how strongly the growth difference is, but utilt has higher damage and higher bkb than bair, in both of the strong hits, so it'll straight up hit harder out of the gate.

i don't know how sakurai angle works entirely. i know if the opponent is airborne, it sends at a 45 degree angle, but it functions differently on grounded ones (which i'm unsure as to how). if it hits lower than 45, then utilt is pretty much a better killing move up until whatever range of damage allows bair's higher growth to catch up. however, considering what ganon is, that probably isn't really relevant.

Bair never actually catches up to the foot (22%) hit of utilt, it's damage causes it to increase at a higher rate than bair despite it's lower kbg.
Bair eventually catches up to the shoulder (20%) hit of utilt, but only at high percents (passes at 113% on an opponent of 100 weight).

So utilt is gonna be stronger like 90% of the time.

Though Volt-Ikazuchi probably meant that bair outclasses it due to it being easier to land and a safer move.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Fun fact: if a sakarai angle sends at 0, it cannot be crouch canceled (as with all angles below 0, like meteors) until it knocks down. "Crouch canceled" meaning asdi down on a hit with light hitstun resulting in little to no endlag.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Fun fact: if a sakarai angle sends at 0, it cannot be crouch canceled (as with all angles below 0, like meteors) until it knocks down. "Crouch canceled" meaning asdi down on a hit with light hitstun resulting in little to no endlag.

not that it matters, since at that knockback it would only have 12 frames of hitstun. Almost never something you can capitalize on unless it's like falco's laser with 4 frames landing lag and hitlag only for the opponent. I'm not even sure if falco's lasers are sakurai angle or what but I guess that would be one of the rare scenarios where a sakurai angle move has that knockback
30 knockback is so low even most jabs have more knockback, which is why you can CC them.

 

[Bazkip]

not that it matters, since at that knockback it would only have 12 frames of hitstun. Almost never something you can capitalize on unless it's like falco's laser with 4 frames landing lag and hitlag only for the opponent. I'm not even sure if falco's lasers are sakurai angle or what but I guess that would be one of the rare scenarios where a sakurai angle move has that knockback
30 knockback is so low even most jabs have more knockback, which is why you can CC them.

It matters if you try to CC something and the knockback reduction ends up putting it below 30 knockback

https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3om6rz/you_cannot_crouch_cancel_foxs_nair_close_to_0/