Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

this is obligatory but its sad that the "viable" tier is the "never gonna win a major by itself" tier and olimar doesnt deserve to be in that tier at all

 

[Zach777]

You need to ground your complaints in semi-realistic and believable johns. Come on, @Lunchables, do it like a pro.

 

[Professor Pro]

if I complain about my mains like ripple and professor pro do, will I become a top player?!?

Roy has no kill power (am I good yet?)

Depends, will you main one of the worser characters of the game and then people claim he's one of the better characters of the game?

 

[Professor Pro]

wtf am I reading

Can you tell me 15 MU's Snake wins?

 

[Boiko]

This was my contribution for those who are curious:

Edit: Mine was a combination of results + potential.

 

[Kulty]

This was my contribution for those who are curious:

Since Marth is so high, does that mean that he can be solo mained just like his Melee counterpart? I personally don't feel that way, because his MU spread became a lot worst overall due to the harsh environment in PM. That's just me, but do you think that Marth needs a second character? I try to ask this question, but the character discussion boards seems dead at the moment...

 

[Boiko]

Since Marth is so high, does that mean that he can be solo mained just like his Melee counterpart? I personally don't feel that way, because his MU spread became a lot worst overall due to the harsh environment in PM. That's just me, but do you think that Marth needs a second character? I try to ask this question, but the character discussion boards seems dead at the moment...

I think that many people underrate Marth and he is completely solo mainable.

 

[Kulty]

I think that many people underrate Marth and he is completely solo mainable.

Oh really? Why do you say that? Sorry, but I`m kinda new to the PM competitive scene, so I want to understand the character's metagame and viability a lot more...

 

[Bazkip]

Can you tell me 15 MU's Snake wins?

You're gonna disagree with me regardless of what I say, not even remotely worth the effort.

The notion that Snake is bottom 10 is absurd.

 

[Deleted member]

These types of conversations generally go in circles

"I think X character is bottom whatever"
"wtf you're insane they're good"
"name who they beat"
"sally, jim, and joe"
"No you're wrong I know more about the character because I'm better/play that character"

there's no way to win this argument, you just accept that it's stupid and if you meet the other person at a tournament then its unanimously agree'd upon that you have to awkwardly avoid them for the entire day

 

[D e l t a]

I personally think that Marth CAN be solo mained, but it would take some work. He out-classes a number of the cast in part to disjoint, priority, and/or overall speed (attacks / movement). Marth can force tech chases and has a great tech chase game (tippers, re-grabs, Dair followups). His ledge guards are among the best with great versatility being able to use all his aerials, counter, Dtilt, SideB, and even turn around situations while recovering with is UpB. Not to mention his recovery isn't super telegraphed and only sucks without a double jump. His reversals and escape options are even good on-stage with a not-sucky roll, counter- since weight & fall speed allow him to escape combos by certain characters, CC grab / Dtilt, and Fair out of combos.

Marth has some losing matchups, but nothing is truly polarizing in PM unlike some Melee matchups such as Sheik vs Bowser. His worst MUs in PM are Sheik and maybe MK/Diddy/Roy/Yoshi.

 

[Boiko]

Marth has some losing matchups, but nothing is truly polarizing in PM unlike some Melee matchups such as Sheik vs Bowser. His worst MUs in PM are Sheik and maybe MK/Diddy/Roy/Yoshi.

I think that Marth beats Roy, but maybe that's just me. I also think he does just fine against Diddy, MK, and Sheik. If anything, it's only a slight disadvantage. He definitely loses to Yoshi though. Even in melee, that's a weirdly challenging MU.

 

[Ningildo]

I personally think that Marth CAN be solo mained, but it would take some work. He out-classes a number of the cast in part to disjoint, priority, and/or overall speed (attacks / movement). Marth can force tech chases and has a great tech chase game (tippers, re-grabs, Dair followups). His ledge guards are among the best with great versatility being able to use all his aerials, counter, Dtilt, SideB, and even turn around situations while recovering with is UpB. Not to mention his recovery isn't super telegraphed and only sucks without a double jump. His reversals and escape options are even good on-stage with a not-sucky roll, counter- since weight & fall speed allow him to escape combos by certain characters, CC grab / Dtilt, and Fair out of combos.

Marth has some losing matchups, but nothing is truly polarizing in PM unlike some Melee matchups such as Sheik vs Bowser. His worst MUs in PM are Sheik and maybe MK/Diddy/Roy/Yoshi.

Please stop using this word in that way, please.

But, in general, yeah, Marth is perfectly fine as a solo main. He does have losing MU's (although what they are tend to be debated), but none of them are borderline unwinnable to the extent, say, Melee Sheik vs Bowser or Brawl MK vs Ganon are.

I'd say Marth wins however slightly against Roy due better range and, most importantly, due the way their sweetspots are positioned. Marth is also significantly less fragile due being floatier, slightly heavier and having a longer recovery.

All imo, feel free to provide counter points etc.

 

[D e l t a]

These types of conversations generally go in circles

"I think X character is bottom whatever"
"wtf you're insane they're good"
"name who they beat"
"sally, jim, and joe"
"No you're wrong I know more about the character because I'm better/play that character"

there's no way to win this argument, you just accept that it's stupid and if you meet the other person at a tournament then its unanimously agree'd upon that you have to awkwardly avoid them for the entire day

This. All of this. I couldn't agree more.

I think that Marth beats Roy, but maybe that's just me. I also think he does just fine against Diddy, MK, and Sheik. If anything, it's only a slight disadvantage. He definitely loses to Yoshi though. Even in melee, that's a weirdly challenging MU.

The main Marth counter is heavy CC and gimp tools, both of which Yoshi has. If Marth didn't have a CG on Fox, he would hands down lose that matchup IMO
As for the Fire Emblem characters, it seems to follow that Marth > Ike > Roy > Marth. All the same, they have disjoints and powerful attacks while being able to completely mess up each other. So there isn't a truly defined best Fire Emblem character of the 3 in their little triangle.

 

[Deleted member]

Marth vs. Roy in this game is roughly even. There isn't much room for error on either side as Marths uthrow on Roy can guarantee stocks after 20%, while Roys dtilt can lead to the same thing if the Roy player is familiar enough w/ marths landing options. It's a battle of grab conversion attached to a faster run speed vs. disjointed non-grab conversion on a slightly slower run speed.

Marth vs. MK is super frustrating, likely -1 (maybe -2?) because you don't have any strong kill confirms vs him. Uthrow can guarantee you about 70-80% from 0 but after that, everything is stray hits. It's really hard to pin him down and you'll often find yourself dying at 80% vs. killing him at 150.

Marth vs. Sheik and Diddy is about even, not too much to comment on here. Banana counterplay, glide tossing, dtilt and grab vs sheik, stuff.

I am also in the unpopular opinion of Marth actually beating Yoshi in PM (Probably only +1 though). Yoshi doesn't have a way to properly check or **** over dash dancing, his main goal is to trade with marth and marth can play around that pretty easily. If you play really tight on the ground and grab his DJC aerials as he lands, you can force horrendously bad tech chase situations due to his poor tech roll. I think the Melee MU is also overstated to a certain degree.

Oh and marth is not in my top 10, get triggered.

 

[D e l t a]

Please stop using this word in that way, please.

How would you like me to use "priority" in the sense that his moves beat most others either by clanking or out right going through them? i.e. His tilts and aerials slice thru non-transcendent projectiles and clank / beat out most tilts due to his attack properties and damage output?

But, in general, yeah, Marth is perfectly fine as a solo main. He does have losing MU's (although what they are tend to be debated), but none of them are borderline unwinnable to the extent, say, Melee Sheik vs Bowser or Brawl MK vs Ganon are.

I'd say Marth wins however slightly against Roy due better range and, most importantly, due the way their sweetspots are positioned. Marth is also significantly less fragile due being floatier, slightly heavier and having a longer recovery.

All imo, feel free to provide counter points etc.

It's a back n forth honestly. Marth can gimp and tipper Roy to death, but Roy can Dtilt & Fsmash/Bair Marth to death. Like I said, there isn't a clearly defined point in the matchup. While Marth has his tippers and better sweetspot positioning, he suffers against characters that can get in on him, which is where Roy's attacks work best. For every negative, there's an equal and opposite positive in the MU.

 

[Boiko]

Marth vs. MK is super frustrating, likely -1 (maybe -2?) because you don't have any strong kill confirms vs him. Uthrow can guarantee you about 70-80% from 0 but after that, everything is stray hits. It's really hard to pin him down and you'll often find yourself dying at 80% vs. killing him at 150.

I do weird things to his bad tech rolls to try to confirm into kills. I need to experiment more though. I'll probably end up agreeing though. MK is hella good.

I am also in the unpopular opinion of Marth actually beating Yoshi in PM (Probably only +1 though). Yoshi doesn't have a way to properly check or **** over dash dancing, his main goal is to trade with marth and marth can play around that pretty easily. If you play really tight on the ground and grab his DJC aerials as he lands, you can force horrendously bad tech chase situations due to his poor tech roll. I think the Melee MU is also overstated to a certain degree.

I think that, like many other match ups, it just needs more fleshing out. Personally, I'll just stick with Ness because I think he bops Yoshi. I agree with the Melee MU being overstated. I think that the Marth players just needs to play it differently than many other MUs (at least the punish game). As it evolves, it'll change (like Samus Fox).

Oh and marth is not in my top 10, get triggered.

Agree to disagree.

:triggered:

 

[D e l t a]

I do weird things to his bad tech rolls to try to confirm into kills. I need to experiment more though.

Simply out of curiosity, what are these weird things that you do?

I'll just stick with Ness because I think he bops Yoshi.

Oh my god I don't even main Yoshi and I hate that matchup. What is he even supposed to do against Ness? Like everything that Yoshi can do it feels that Ness does it better (aside from Yoshi having a better tilt game in regards to the MU). Yoshi's DJC Fair approach is worse than Ness' DJC Bairs that can be used as better baits / approaches. Ness' kill confirms and setups are way better and kill around the same %, plus he has a kill throw. Not to mention Yoshi's projectile while it can kill / gimp Ness offstage, is almost always avoidable. Ness' PK Fire trades with Yoshi's Nair AND activates on hit. Additionally, Ness can PKT1 across the other side of the stage and either not get punished, or Yoshi will only get maybe a grab / dash attack?

Someone with tons of exp in the MU please tell me how this MU is in anyway not terrible for Yoshi. I've seen it played a number of times and I still can't think of any feasible way that Yoshi wins.

 

[Professor Pro]

You're gonna disagree with me regardless of what I say, not even remotely worth the effort.

The notion that Snake is bottom 10 is absurd.

I'm likely going to disagree with you because I'm pretty convinced Snake doesn't win 15 MU's, but since you think it's absurd that Snake could be bottom 10 I am genuinely interested in 15 MU's that you think Snake wins.

So are you willing to give 15?

 

[Bazkip]

I'm likely going to disagree with you because I'm pretty convinced Snake doesn't win 15 MU's, but since you think it's absurd that Snake could be bottom 10 I am genuinely interested in 15 MU's that you think Snake wins.

So are you willing to give 15?

These types of conversations generally go in circles

"I think X character is bottom whatever"
"wtf you're insane they're good"
"name who they beat"
"sally, jim, and joe"
"No you're wrong I know more about the character because I'm better/play that character"

there's no way to win this argument, you just accept that it's stupid and if you meet the other person at a tournament then its unanimously agree'd upon that you have to awkwardly avoid them for the entire day

 

[Professor Pro]

LOL so no, peace

 

[Deleted member]

you haven't changed at all prof

 

[D e l t a]

So are you willing to give 15?

Gonna take a stab at this:

Lucario
Samus
G&W
Ganon
Bowser
Yoshi
Sonic
Olimar
IC's
Luigi
Jiggs
Charizard
Peach
Roy
Pit
Mew2

Understandably I think some of those are closer to even, but I'd be curious to hear your input.

 

[JesteRace]

Why does Snake have to beat >1/3 of the cast to not be bottom 10?

 

[D e l t a]

Why does Snake have to beat >1/3 of the cast to not be bottom 10?

Well PM has 41 characters and 1/3 of that is approximately 14-15. Technically he'd only have to beat >1/4 of the cast to not be bottom 10

 

[JesteRace]

Uhhh... no. Being #21 doesn't mean you beat 20 characters and lose to the other 20. Or do we not believe in even matchups?

 

[Bazkip]

Uhhh... no. Being #21 doesn't mean you beat 20 characters and lose to the other 20. Or do we not believe in even matchups?

They're against my religion

 

[GabPR]

Ive had this question for a while now so im going to have a go at it. Why is Diddy considered to be so high? I understand he has really good placings and I would guess that things like his item game and his command grab is what drives people insane. But wouldnt just improving one's item game mitigate this? Maybe I could understand bananas since they may be more difficult to use but Ive seen countless players get edgeguarded or walled by peanuts and ask myself why they dont just glide toss it instead of getting hit by it. Do you think If players would focus on developing their item game diddy would drop in his placements to at least a few more spots within the top 10? Any reasonabe non-hate explanation would be appreciated.

 

[JesteRace]

They're against my religion

This is America. We celebrate Christmas. With Tier List Speculation.

 

[D e l t a]

Diddy is good because he's fast, has powerful aerials that link into each other, have low end lag, bananas that break CC past 5% vs every character, and many other powerful attributes. Yeah you can take away his bananas, but a lot of cast members either don't have good throw animations, or their conversions off bananas aren't nearly as powerful

 

[GabPR]

Diddy is good because he's fast, has powerful aerials that link into each other, have low end lag, bananas that break CC past 5% vs every character, and many other powerful attributes. Yeah you can take away his bananas, but a lot of cast members either don't have good throw animations, or their conversions off bananas aren't nearly as powerful

I see your point. Many characters dont have good animations and conversions off of them like you said. Maybe these characters could opt for z dropping it before doing an aerial and the like. How are his edgeguarding options when against an opponent with good item control?

 

[Binary Clone]

agree'd

Who spells "agree'd" like that?

I have no problem with your post, I'm just...

That's just odd to me, am I crazy?

How would you like me to use "priority" in the sense that his moves beat most others either by clanking or out right going through them? i.e. His tilts and aerials slice thru non-transcendent projectiles and clank / beat out most tilts due to his attack properties and damage output?

The problem is that "priority" refers specifically to interactions between grounded hitboxes, where attacks that do more damage by enough of a margin go through weaker attacks, and attacks that are close in damage clank. That's what priority is.

Aerials don't have that kind of priority; they cannot clank with other aerials or with grounded moves. "Good priority" is a nebulous and near-useless term that should be phased out, because it's a misleading phrase that would be better explained by just noting that he has fast and well-disjointed hitboxes. People say that Luigi's nair has "good priority" when they really just mean it's really fast and slightly disjointed and Luigi is hard to combo. It doesn't actually "beat" anything out, people are just very liable to **** up their spacing or drop their combo to a Luigi nair.

IMO we should either start using priority specifically to refer to being "fast with a favorable hitbox" (nebulous and not that useful anyway) and start calling the mechanic of priority something else, or just stop using "priority" when referring to things other than the concrete mechanic.

 

[Deleted member]

Who spells "agree'd" like that?

I have no problem with your post, I'm just...

That's just odd to me, am I crazy?

afaik, it's blatantly incorrect. It's a bad habit, picked it up a long time ago

stop making fun of me

 

[DrinkingFood]

just say agre'd and it should be correct again

 

[Ripple]

Can people name more than 5 MUs that DDD wins.

Checkmate

 

[SunJester]

Can people name more than 5 MUs that DDD wins.

Checkmate

Fox, Melee Fox, Falco, Melee Falco, Wolf, and Westballz.



With this list rating wolf #10, I think its a good time to pick him up and prove everyone wrong. I can't back it up, but I feel it in my bones that he's amazing.

 

[Soft Serve]

Ive had this question for a while now so im going to have a go at it. Why is Diddy considered to be so high? I understand he has really good placings and I would guess that things like his item game and his command grab is what drives people insane. But wouldnt just improving one's item game mitigate this? Maybe I could understand bananas since they may be more difficult to use but Ive seen countless players get edgeguarded or walled by peanuts and ask myself why they dont just glide toss it instead of getting hit by it. Do you think If players would focus on developing their item game diddy would drop in his placements to at least a few more spots within the top 10? Any reasonabe non-hate explanation would be appreciated.

Because his neutral is really ****ing good. really fast character with amazing horizontal range. great damage output, good edge guards. sucks at killing people he can't edge guard reliably.

as people get better at catching items and then throwing them behind them/using them, bananas won't be as overbearing, but a lot of characters have really ****ty item catch/throw/glide toss. DDD/DK for example have horrible item counterplay because they struggle to pick them up or get rid of them, while characters like fox/wolf/peach/m2/rob can use the banana just as well or better than diddy.

Diddy gets alot of grabs, and people still aren't that good at DIing his throws. Its not a real mix up, hold behind him and he doesn't get a Dthrow followup, and if you're a character upthrow will combo then with the same DI you get a less painful punish (unless you're one of the unlucky fatties or slow DJ characters who can't jump out of upthrow dair at mid%). He is amazing at tech chasing though.

He's really good. Pretty god tier MU spread, Samus being the only MU where I think diddy should just switch to a secondary (M2 probably will be the same in the future but thats theory smash). effectively even or an edge vs important MUs like falco, marth, falcon, ROB. Fox is hard in neutral but thats fox (and gets worse as the fox knows the MU and item play, running shine bodies diddy and shine>JC item toss is pretty dumb counterplay, so is z drop banana mid shield pressure) , nothing diddy can't win because he just needs one bad commitment by fox to tech chase him to death.

Current top 5 without a doubt. If we put diddy in a hypothetical end game situation, with a banana in hand diddy should never lose neutral, but the same goes for if the opponent has the banana in his hard MUs. probably still top 5.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

you don't need to beat an arbitrary number of matchups to be a good character

you need to win the matchups you actually face

Gonna take a stab at this:

Lucario
Samus
G&W
Ganon
Bowser
Yoshi
Sonic
Olimar
IC's
Luigi
Jiggs
Charizard
Peach
Roy
Pit
Mew2

Understandably I think some of those are closer to even, but I'd be curious to hear your input.

snake is a character that I feel is like luigi in that a lot of his matchups are even to on the tough side of even but are totally manageable if you're the better player. you won't cheese out wins against people better than you, but if you play better during the set, there is an equitable return on that.

that being said I think luigi:snake is pretty close to even in that snake can easily confirm off of a stick beginning at a really low percent but he struggles to get the grab/setup to lead to that stick. he has decent space control but luigi is decently good at finding holes in it and wavedash spotdodge kinda exposes a bunch of snake's weaknesses and it's relatively hard to snake to kill luigi without a stick or rando tranq/uptilt read

and luigi kinda ****s snake up with fireballs which allow him to approach and once luigi is in he does luigi things which should lead to a shoryuken which should lead to a dead snake

also don't take snake to dreamland lol



also what I'm kind of trying to generalize is that you don't need to have the most winning matchups for your character to be "good"
if your character goes 50:50 with the vast majority of the cast that's really good because it means you don't have many bad matchups at all
if the best player uses a character with 50:50 matchups across the board people are going to think that character is godlike despite not actually having any winning matchups but it can produce results

all matchups are 50:50 until proven otherwise by reasonably competent players, of which there aren't many

 

[Kipcom]

Sometimes I wonder how Pit got ****ed so hard post 3.02.

How do you go from top 5 on many tier lists to bottom 5-10 on many tier lists post patch.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Sometimes I wonder how Pit got ****ed so hard post 3.02.

How do you go from top 5 on many tier lists to bottom 5-10 on many tier lists post patch.

armada and zero stop playing