Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

Funny Drinking Food, I tried to have a discussion about this exact thing. But instead you kept taking Plate seriously, asserting that bad players like him can't understand, and so forth. But the serious discussion (with me and peg, as always) was left untouched and unresponded to. I even questioned why R.O.B. couldn't grab the ledge and ledge stand, covering both early up b with a punish and hogging out the sweetspot. No response still.

Too many Squirtle's in this thread, I think it is time to pull the fire alarm and evacuate for everyone's sake.

But for real, if Squirtle is put in a position where he has to up b to sweetspot or early up b, it should be a dead Squirtle. Getting him to that position is a different discussion (like Farquaad mentioned), but if he is that low without a double jump, it is that simple. For mixups, if you have a quick invincible (or close to) ledge stall, that also simplifies things. His mixups included wall cling, stall with a double jump, bubble around ledge height and drift on stage, double jump with an up air to swat you away from the ledge, and more. Side b helps you get there without using your double jump, though people that can go deep can predict this and hit you (like you can against pikachu). I am rambling at this point, based on what I am hearing of the context of this scuffle, Umbreon's decision making isn't making much sense. But hey, he has better results than I do. So a discussion where he explains himself would be great, but I am not seeing the logic.

 

[migul]

because falcon is a dumb broken character with an upair that outclasses half the cast and guaranteed kill followups off grab and nair is the best projectile in the game.

ftfy

 

[DrinkingFood]

Funny Drinking Food, I tried to have a discussion about this exact thing. But instead you kept taking Plate seriously, asserting that bad players like him can't understand, and so forth. But the serious discussion (with me and peg, as always) was left untouched and unresponded to.

I remember the last time I had this discussion about having that discussion and how I discussed how I can only discuss so many things before I get tired of discussing and, as such, why plateprop effectively took me away from more valuable discussions. I'm not going to spend 5 hours a day typing up paragraphs. So when I get 5 different responses to something, I'm going with the first one(s) or the most attention grabbing/inflammatory one(s). That was plate.

 

[JOE!]

Guess this can be plugged here since it relates to character viability:

I made a listing of all aerials in PM's landing lags vs reaction times.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3xynu7/all_landing_lags_normallcanceledvs_reaction/

 

[Player -0]

Reaction time depends but sure.

You should put PlateProp's reaction time on there for comparison

 

[JOE!]

Reaction time depends but sure.

You should put PlateProp's reaction time on there for comparison

Precognition is cheating.

But for real, if Plate has some insane reaction time (7frames lol) I can add it

 

[CORY]

didn't plate take the millia blocker test and end up being pretty standard?

 

[DMG]

He would have to be a cheater for 7 frames. I'm at 12-13 frames (not factoring in any monitor delay which hopefully is minimal) and that's for a simple red to green transition. Millia blocker / similar tests were RAW, I swear she cheats.

 

[CORY]

for millia blocker, i think you can download it to your computer and test it there, so no transmission delay.

for monitor delay, i can't say much, get a real man's monitor, scrub.

 

[DMG]

I'll remember to do that (never)

 

[JOE!]

Either way, I think a range of 15-10 is generous enough

 

[DMG]

Yes it is, praise satan if anyone reliably goes below that

 

[Deleted member]

But for real, if Squirtle is put in a position where he has to up b to sweetspot or early up b, it should be a dead Squirtle. Getting him to that position is a different discussion (like Farquaad mentioned), but if he is that low without a double jump, it is that simple. For mixups, if you have a quick invincible (or close to) ledge stall, that also simplifies things. His mixups included wall cling, stall with a double jump, bubble around ledge height and drift on stage, double jump with an up air to swat you away from the ledge, and more. Side b helps you get there without using your double jump, though people that can go deep can predict this and hit you (like you can against pikachu). I am rambling at this point, based on what I am hearing of the context of this scuffle, Umbreon's decision making isn't making much sense. But hey, he has better results than I do. So a discussion where he explains himself would be great, but I am not seeing the logic.

its actually really simple, you set up the scenario, remove suboptimal options, and try to find the best from the remainder. the scenario is marth edge guarding squirtle on YS. the stage is small so the situation where squirtle is out of resources and gets edge hogged pretty much never happens, you either kill him or he can make it back with flex mobility to spare. lets go through some options. goal 1 is to successfully edge guard squirtle, goal 2 is that should you miss option 1, you dont lose positional advantage. generally for marth and most other characters this is pretty straightforward. takin the edge here is bad, because as previously mentioned it opens marth up to disrespect multi-hit up b, and wall cling shenanigans, and if i miss i can lose position or even be stage spiked (i do this with sheiks bair and vanish all the time and i'm familiar with how it plays out in a general way). if i do a ledge jump dair, squirtle generally has the ability to recover along the inside of the stage and he can tech dair and get a reset to neutral and i lose position. if i don't attack, he can land on the stage where my punishes are much weaker and generally leads to a reset most of the time. so there are multiple risks to taking the edge with the ideal reward being unlikely, we can conclude that taking the edge is no good outside of automatic kills that are unlikely on this stage. my next bet is to try dtilt or fsmash, but those also dont work on YS so those are out. my last bet is to dair the recovery on stage, which opens me up to trading up b and teching, but if i hit it and squirtle techs, i at least still have good positional advantage. due to my initial goals, you could argue that dair is okay and the rest are bad, or you could argue that they're all bad. but there is no clear good option in this situation.

the comparison to pikachu has merit but pikachus side b is much slower and easier to negotiate, and tbh as marth i wouldnt go for that anyway, i would probably still edge guard normally to eliminate the risk of dropping position.

its really pretty simple. i mean yeah i guess you can edge hog squirtle if he has literally zero options and/or ignores his own counterplay to edge guarding.

edit-

I'm pretty sure that's not what umbreon was saying. squirtle already has several tools to get you off the edge (and to get close enough to do this from far distances) that accounting for them all generally leaves up-b as the thing to hit you off it. It's not so much constantly getting hit by up-b as it is a lot of mix-ups for recovery on a character that's already hard to punish.

basically this, didnt even see this post.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

didn't plate take the millia blocker test and end up being pretty standard?

I think he was a little quicker than average but not inhumanly so
average for milia blocker is like 20 frames and plate got something like 17 or 18

now milia blocker isn't pure reaction time it's decision making reaction time

 

[CORY]

I think he was a little quicker than average but not inhumanly so
average for milia blocker is like 20 frames and plate got something like 17 or 18

now milia blocker isn't pure reaction time it's decision making reaction time

Which is the important decision making process. You don't get too many situations that are just straight "wait for x, react with y".

It's typically "look for x or y, react accordingly with either a or b".

 

[JOE!]

Hrm, should my chart then include:

Vs Decision Reaction (20)

Vs Fast Decision/Average Reaction (15)

Vs Fast Reaction (10)

 

[DMG]

Hrm, should my chart then include:

Vs Decision Reaction (20)

Vs Fast Decision/Average Reaction (15)

Vs Fast Reaction (10)

Vs Plate (-7)

Fixed that for you

 

[JOE!]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N6FN8xUuzTEyZx6_mLOiXtI0mChf3CvrI70w_HKJLOg/edit#gid=0

Fixd

 

[D e l t a]

rip any of lucas' moves

I know it's just a brief statement and you probably didn't mean much by it, but I want to emphasize on a few points. Anything not listed like sourspot / non-electric hitboxes still lead into guaranteed followups and can't be SDId.

The only 2 moves that primarily get affected by SDI consistently in tourney are Dair and Nair. Dair is the most commonly SDI'd move and people sometimes SDI / ASDI Nair down / out.

Othe things people need to SDI more in tourney: PKF, Uair, PKT2, and magnet. SDI/ASDI down PKF and magnet to not take 50%+ from a combo opener. PKF can be SDI'd down and you can shield right after. Mag can be SDI'd down and tech's similar to Fox's shine. Not reactable like shine, but very possible.
Uair during juggle strings should be SDI'd away, especially on the back hit of Lucas' head that sends opponents behind Lucas
PKT2 I'll get so many free kills on people that miss the ledge guard simply because they let it hit them all the way instead of SDI'ing into Lucas and avoiding the final hit

Things not reactable or readable that can still be SDI'd out and avoid followups: sweetspot / electric hits of jab and Fair. CPUs perfectly SDI jab and Fair away and I never can followup after unlike vs any other player.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

'cause DJC uair is really really really fast

you say that like it's a huge techskill investment, but if you do DJCs with tap jump it's really quite easy (certainly easier than DACUS) and it'll get a pikmin off you without suffering a ton of hitlag like nair has

so if you have a pikmin on you and you don't feel like approaching olimar at that instant (and the pikmin is somewhere that uair covers, which again, is most of Lucas' body but I'm not sure if it's all his body because it's been a while since I looked at Lucas things and hitting pikmin was definitely not one of them) it's probably pretty good

Uhh, sorry if that came out offensive or something, but I just meant that SH Nair lets you get rid of Pikmin and you can still use the DJC to throw something else if Olimar tries to do something else. And I'm not exactly sure since it's been ages since I played Lucas, but isn't Uair better for combos? If it is, better keep it unstaled, right?

I know DJC ain't hard. But I'm biased since I use tap jump. (Can't unlearn 64 lol)

 

[Life]

My point was that DJC uair is a faster way to detach pikmin than nair is, unless I misunderstand how detaching them works.

Dunno enough about Lucas to know how important it is to not stale uair in this matchup.

 

[D e l t a]

At low % Nair is better. The low knockback sets up for grabs / Fair / Mag and you'll want unstaled Uair due to the insanely low hitstun it has

At high %, Nair rarely combos, so you'll want it unstaled to kill / send offstage, and Uair to be more staled so it links into Bair on most characters and doesn't send them too far away.

 

[DrinkingFood]

At low % Nair is better. The low knockback sets up for grabs / Fair / Mag and you'll want unstaled Uair due to the insanely low hitstun it has

At high %, Nair rarely combos, so you'll want it unstaled to kill / send offstage, and Uair to be more staled so it links into Bair on most characters and doesn't send them too far away.

Staling on moves has negligible knockback/hitstun difference in PM/melee

 

[JOE!]

Staling on moves has negligible knockback/hitstun difference in PM/melee

IIRC, Staleness only affects % in PM,not the actual KB value (outside of what lower % does to KB formula)

 

[D e l t a]

I thought the % dealt affected knockback & hitstun? I know staling affected knockback and hitstun in brawl directly, but in PM I was under the impression that % changed the amount of knockback

If this is wrong, what affects hitstun / what are the hitstun formulas?

 

[Bazkip]

Part of the knockback formula has damage of the move multiplied by total damage the recipient has. As such, small differences in damage dealt can greatly change the outcome. In Brawl (and probably Smash 4?) the value used is the actual damage that was dealt, so it'd be a smaller value if the move is stale, which then resulted in significant changes to knockback. In Melee (and I guess 64?) the full damage of the move is used regardless of staleness. In PM it was changed to work like Melee.

As Joe/DF said, staleness does still result in less knockback because your opponent is at a slightly lower percent, but that'll only result in minor differences.

Hitstun is knockback multiplied by 0.4 (0.533 in 64)

 

[Chevy]

Fairly certain knockback is determined by percent as they are hit, so staleness should never make a difference in knockback, at least in my meager tests.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

The damage of the move (I assume staled damage, right?) is part of the kb formula. So a move with the same bkb/kbg done on the same opponent with at the same percent but with different damage (like 4% vs 8%, the one with higher damage does more kb/hitstun. If the staled percent (percent given by the move) is used, then it has a (slight) affect on kb/hitstun.

 

[Strong Badam]

Fairly certain knockback is determined by percent as they are hit, so staleness should never make a difference in knockback, at least in my meager tests.

No. Kb is calculated using post-hit damage.

 

[DrinkingFood]

If you have a fresh move that does 10 damage, vs the fully staled version that does 5.5 damage (how the **** did you hit a move 9 times in a row), then the only difference in knockback will be the difference between, say, the hit putting them at 60 damage or putting them at 55.5. Since post-hit damage is used for the knockback calculations, this 4.5% difference is the extent to which the hitstun/knockback changes due to the staling. For weak moves this almost never matters, it's only important for strong moves and even then, falcon doesn't care if knee puts you at 80 damage or 88 damage, it'll probably kill either way. The times it IS important are usually for moves you use repeatedly in a row up to a set percent before capitalizing on the set-up, like chain grabs. Most obvious instance is marth's fthrow. If staled, it causes knockdown like 2% later (in terms of pre-hit damage) meaning you might be able to go for a 3rd fthrow without knocking them down, since by the third fthrow they will still be below 7-8% (I forget exactly when it knocks down, it's somewhere in there). Besides that, staling pretty much has a negligible affect on knockback and hitstun, and any negative effects are simply from the staling doing less damage itself, such as a staled marth uthrow having a tighter window for more repetitions of uthrow against, say, chaingrabbing falco since it takes longer to get him to the percents where the window opens up.

 

[jtm94]

Staling of upthrow CGs helps extend how long the CG actually lasts which is important.

I have never once in my life considered the staleness of a move other than Link's UpB so it can break bombs.

GnW doesn't have any fast aerials that hit all over him so depending on where the pikmin is stuck sometimes it's better to utilt, uair, or fair. It feels good nairing pikmin because they die and you can extend nair from the hitlag.

 

[Chevy]

Yeah I misremembered how I tested it myself actually. It was a while ago. My bad.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Staling of upthrow CGs helps extend how long the CG actually lasts which is important.

no, it doesn't
generally speaking, if its a good CG like a uthrow on fox, your throw will be fully staled by the end anyway, or almost. But say, you get there without your throw being staled; it still ends at the same percent. You only get more repetitions, which is bad because it means more chances for your opponent to confuse you with slight DIs.

 

[jtm94]

My character has free CGs and DI doesn't matter. I'd rather make my opponent give up by them being unable to move for 20 seconds than get there in less time with slightly more damage. With what you said, it backs up that it, "helps extend how long the CG actually lasts."

 

[Player -0]

With this staling in mind.

How exactly does Project M/Melee staling differ from Brawl/Smash 4's? Does Brawl/Smash 4 go through a second formula that knockback is also determined from staleness?

 

[Soft Serve]

Its ****ing christmas eve, stop talking about chain grab throw staling and go kiss someone

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

With this staling in mind.

How exactly does Project M/Melee staling differ from Brawl/Smash 4's? Does Brawl/Smash 4 go through a second formula that knockback is also determined from staleness?

in brawl/sm4sh the knockback function depends on base knockback of the move, knockback growth of the move (which depends on total percent damage) and the actual damage of the move.
in melee/pm, knockback depends on base knockback and knockback growth (which again depends on the total percent damage) BUT NOT the actual damage of the move itself. this does NOT factor into the formula

as a result, in pm, staling decreases the damage of the move, but this only affects the final total percentage variable, which affects the knockback growth. this is a minor difference and basically accounts to the difference in knockback between a fox usmash at 100 at 98

in brawl, scaling was a big deal because it basically turned the scaling knockback change from a linear one to a polynomial, as the decrease in damage was multiplied through the entire thing because of the damage of the move variable. the pm knockback formula gets rid of this "move damage" variable

(or at least that's what I understand from what I've read somebody like JOE! probably knows more)

 

[Deleted member]

Its ****ing christmas eve, stop talking about chain grab throw staling and go kiss someone

i started making out with @bec but then i wanted to talk about applications of the knockback decay function

 

[Bazkip]

BUT NOT the actual damage of the move itself. this does NOT factor into the formula

What no that's not how it works.
Damage is part of the formula. Melee and PM just use the full damage of the move regardless of staleness.

I explained this in my comment just a few posts back...

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

man idk im dumb