Tier List Speculation

[Karmaic Avidity]

Does this thread ever not devolve into people yelling at each other? Lol. From what I estimate, this is about 900 pages of rage inducing insults, and about 127 pages of actual substantial material. Someone really should do a "Best Of" and "Worst Of" of this thread.

 

[DMG]

Best moments of Tier List Speculation:

Bees!

That guy who seriously said "Make Pikachu smaller"

Ripple posts

Strong Bad posts when he's not burdened with being super cereal as a mod

Lunchables being better than everyone

Every Melee player who comes by, says "Fox isn't #1", and then leaves without offering anything substantial


Worst moments of Tier List Speculation:

Just about every post not made by me or the ~20-25 glorious other people whom I find quite likable or enjoyable

Old - Anything a Zelda player said, if they are talking about Zelda and trying to be super cereal about defending her (RIP old Zelda these days are gone, Zelda hate fan-club no longer has a purpose)

_______________________________________________________________________________

I wish everyone played Captain Falcon cause he's #1, let's talk about his MU's you filthy casuals

 

[Ningildo]

Hey, ever been in that position where you want to tell everyone to calm down and keep their cool and resume discussion, but you tend to come across as if you think you're above them and definitely know better if you do?

Regardless, D e l t a , what makes the Lucas/Olimar MU so much in Lucas's favor? Genuinely wondering, as my general stance on most MU's regarding Olimar is "around even, but I probably haven't faced a good X in all likelihood".

 

[trash?]

oh right, none of the elite players ever helped anyone, especially not with our big ****ing guides loaded with top quality information like oh say mine. if you want top players to help the community than don't be **** to the ones that try and maybe they'll come back occasionally.

1) even at best, this does not just magically make the mistakes you've made go away, that's not some equalizer you can pull out to justify whatever in the fresh hell your previous reply was
2) there are other top players that are trying hard to be actively nice to people, though, and they're far more well-received than you've been

I'd prefer to not continue this conversation beyond this, I feel like it's becoming a case of poking at someone personally and that is not something that should come up in a thread about tier lists

 

[Life]

Does this thread ever not devolve into people yelling at each other? Lol. From what I estimate, this is about 900 pages of rage inducing insults, and about 127 pages of actual substantial material. Someone really should do a "Best Of" and "Worst Of" of this thread.

Honestly? It happens a bit less often than you'd think, depending on how you look at it.

When people do blow up they have to spend dozens of posts until something stops them--either they calm down, a mod locks the thread, etc. Meanwhile, serious discussion is harder and requires actual thought, so it tends to take a decently long time and results in a lower number of posts. And of course the thread will occasionally go dead for like a day for whatever reason, during which time it racks up zero posts in either the useful direction or the inflammatory one.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I like turtles

... is all I want to post, but it'll get reported as a ****post blah blah

I should elaborate that it's possible for bad players to have legitimate points about theory, but it is extremely difficult for them to have come upon those opinions 'correctly' - and will typically base them upon flawed understandings of the context of the game. It's easy to be right in the same way that a broken clock is right, but it's tough to win at theorycraft if you can't win at the regular game.

That probably sounds like word salad. God damnit, I don't want to turn into naus.

 

[DMG]

That probably sounds like word salad. God damnit, I don't want to turn into naus.

I showed my friend (who's a Philosophy Major) some of Nausicca's posts





He read a couple and switched Majors

 

[Farquaad]

I like turtles

... is all I want to post, but it'll get reported as a ****post blah blah

I should elaborate that it's possible for bad players to have legitimate points about theory, but it is extremely difficult for them to have come upon those opinions 'correctly' - and will typically base them upon flawed understandings of the context of the game. It's easy to be right in the same way that a broken clock is right, but it's tough to win at theorycraft if you can't win at the regular game.

That probably sounds like word salad. God damnit, I don't want to turn into naus.

Need more about Luigi being S tier and meditation, maybe a bit about the game within a game and how no one's playing the real game yet, maybe throw in something about "fractals" just cause you can.

But in general your post is exactly how I feel

 

[Ripple]

hey guys, its me, your resident top level player that drops by every day.

youre boned.





/s .
I guess I'll just add something constructive. people don't ask me nearly enough questions, whether that be in person or online. 2 people have sent me PMs asking me DDD stuff in the past 2 years. I don't think thats nearly enough considering how often I'm on here and available to people

 

[CORY]

That's because every ddd main already pm'd you. They don't have a reason to start a new conversation up.

 

[Strong Badam]

Umm well, while I don't feel quite as violently about it as Umbreon, I also don't really enjoy posting my opinions here, and that's very common among top players. I usually just talk directly to top players about the game these days. I know it sucks for those of you who are genuinely looking for lil nuggets of knowledge that they can latch onto and learn something substantial from, but I dredged through this thread for a really long time, making good posts and stuff, responding to replies (from other top players, literal randoms who never attend tournaments, and everything in-between) with refutation and it gets very tiring. Some people really really need to learn that sometimes you're just not nearly as qualified as others on a particular subject and try to have a conversation with that as an established fact, rather than attempting to discuss things as equals. The internet and its culture as it has developed doesn't really facilitate that concept very well. I'll likely stick to moderating as usual. Maybe after another month or two I'll have a better idea of what a tier list would look like (I have the top 15-20ish more or less determined but the remainder is uncertain), I'll post it with a similar write-up like I did before Aftershock for 3.5. Until then don't expect many posts from me. Feel free to hit me up via the usual channels if anyone has any specific questions though =)

 

[Life]

Odds, that was perfectly comprehensible, which possibly just means that I've turned into naus before you have

considering what is becoming of my attempt at defining "control" this is a completely realistic possibility

it goes something like "Smash is a battle of wills; your goal is to take all of your opponent's stocks without allowing them to take all of yours. If you are "in control," it means that most of the combined decisions you and your opponent can make will lead to a neutral or positive outcome for you."

But then I have to define a neutral or positive outcome (something about creating/advancing/regaining your lead plus remaining in control; in other words, you progress towards your goal of taking the next stock without sacrificing the advantageous game state that is allowing you to progress), and I also have to reconfigure it because I was originally talking about control as a way to tentatively determine character matchups. And for that matter I probably have to define those combined decisions I was talking about? Because choosing to do something that is obviously correct (such as wobbling after getting a grab as Melee ICs) is not what I'm talking about.

And then I still feel like I'm just taking concepts we already know about and putting them into different words. Look at "positional advantage," it encapsulates that perfectly. When one character has a better position than the other, it's obvious who is, ahem, "in control." The problem is figuring out who is closer to being "in control" in an allegedly neutral situation.

Man, this is hard. But I thought I'd share what I've come up with so far, since it's kinda fun to talk about.

 

[D e l t a]

Regardless, D e l t a , what makes the Lucas/Olimar MU so much in Lucas's favor? Genuinely wondering, as my general stance on most MU's regarding Olimar is "around even, but I probably haven't faced a good X in all likelihood".

My thoughts on the Lucas v Olimar matchup:

Spoiler

Lucas' PKF in neutral keeps up with pikmin and stops them cold while damaging their health. The longer this neutral goes on, the more Oli's pikmin will begin to die off, and he'll need to pluck or find a safe way to retreat under Lucas' pressure. Similarly, if Olimar has a full strong line, he can throw them on Lucas, at which point his Nair (which covers the entire body) will knock them off. A number of characters don't have moves that cover their entire body and are low in hitlag / end lag so they don't get punished. Furthermore, Nair typically kills an entire red / white pikmin while crippling blue and yellow. Depending on the timing & spacing, purple may or may not hit Lucas out of Nair. Mag -> aerial guarantees pikmin get knocked off and almost always die.

Fair stops all pikmin no matter what. And if Olimar doesn't throw a purple, Lucas can run in with any aerial, knock the pikmin off, and still have active frames while approaching (i.e. Nair / Dair / Fair).

In addition to hitting Pikmin for the sake of keeping them off, Lucas can unstale certain moves such as PKF for more effective camping, magnet for better launch / shield pressure, etc.

==

Olimar's OoS options are not that great. As such, Lucas can shield pressure easily without Olimar having many counter options. His Nair is the best being frame 3, but very low priority or range. While doing multi-magnets, Lucas is holding ASDI down and will be able to avoid getting hit by the full Nair, that is to say if the move even hits Lucas since magnet is disjointed and Nair is not. Fair is their only other good option at frame 7 + 4 frame jumpsquat and grab if the Lucas decides to magnet -> wavedash back.

As for Olimar's shield pressure, he's got pikmin thru shield, jab, Dtilt, spaced Fair/Bair, and Nair. All of which can be punished by Lucas or easily escaped. Olimar's jump is not good enough to catch Lucas' full hop OoS unless the opponent reads it, his WD back is much faster and will reset to neutral, and aerials / grab OoS can catch Olimar unless they perfectly space, and I mean perfectly.

==

As for the punish game, Lucas' is well known and I've 0-death'd Olimar much easier than the rest of the cast due to his abusable weight & fall speed, while dying super early to sweetspot Bair, Upsmash, etc. (Bair normally kills cast members around 110-130, kills Oli between 100-115, Usmash normally 100-125, kills Oli around 75-90). Not to mention how his recovery is the worst in the game since you can hardly angle the UpB or sweetspot it, the move is slow as hell, and has next to 0 disjoint or hitboxes. I could explain further but I think this will do for Lucas' side.

Olimar on the other hand, has pikmin -> grab and doesn't get much from grab followups otherwise. Fair can link into each other, but it's worse than Sheik Fair IMO (unless you get purple) and is easier to Amsah tech both by ASDI down during combos and if they try to punish tether getup. Dtilt can be ASDI down / CC'd or just plain DI'd away and they get only a dash attack or Fair followup.
tl;dr Olimar has to have a more solid neutral than punish because they don't get off much on Lucas in 3.6 with proper DI.

Personal response:
Someone please feel free to debate me on this. But the whole "pikmin toss is godlike in neutral and Lucas can't do anything about it" is BS. If there's anything more to his punish game I would honestly like to know / see it in-game. I've yet to see how Lucas could struggle in this matchup due to multiple aggressive options and hitboxes that deal with Olimar. I think that it's only slight Lucas favor due to pikmin being able to contest PKF and enough tools to keep up with Lucas. I don't, however, feel that Olimar has what it takes to beat Lucas consistently at top level gameplay, but in a Bo5 I could see the set going to game 4 or 5 easily due to stage picks.

 

[steelguttey]

Olimar on the other hand, has pikmin -> grab and doesn't get much from grab followups otherwise. Fair can link into each other, but it's worse than Sheik Fair IMO (unless you get purple) and is easier to Amsah tech both by ASDI down during combos and if they try to punish tether getup. Dtilt can be ASDI down / CC'd or just plain DI'd away and they get only a dash attack or Fair followup.
tl;dr Olimar has to have a more solid neutral than punish because they don't get off much on Lucas in 3.6 with proper DI.

if i dont care about my sanity i'll read the rest of the post and respond later but

olimar's punish game on semi fast fallers is ridiculous, especially his throw followups. uthrow to dash attack leads into fair, usmash, utilt, dtilt which all, except dtilt in some situations, lead into each other depending on di. i dont care how much asdi you have, i can get a regrab or utilt/usmash after ~20%. any usmash other than purple can link into itself multiple times, especially against someone with a weight like lucas'. and even if he has a purple, utilt does the same thing, maybe even more so.

lucas oli is probably somewhere around 55-45 in lucas' favor, maybe even. i cant see it going further than that.

 

[Player -0]

Olimar is so tiny and powerful it's crazy. Going to stop because I need to actually play someone who plays Olimar before making everyone question their lives.


Some notes though - Lucas can't PKF as fast as pikmin toss. Nair, while it hits whole body (can't give any info on if it knocks pikmin off) it ALSO gives Lucas a TON of hitlag that gives Olimar ample time to do things.

As long as 3 pikmin aren't dead at same time, Olimar should be able to keep Lucas out or threaten space enough for plucking (plucking isn't that committal).

 

[Ningildo]

My thoughts on the Lucas v Olimar matchup:

Spoiler

Lucas' PKF in neutral keeps up with pikmin and stops them cold while damaging their health. The longer this neutral goes on, the more Oli's pikmin will begin to die off, and he'll need to pluck or find a safe way to retreat under Lucas' pressure. Similarly, if Olimar has a full strong line, he can throw them on Lucas, at which point his Nair (which covers the entire body) will knock them off. A number of characters don't have moves that cover their entire body and are low in hitlag / end lag so they don't get punished. Furthermore, Nair typically kills an entire red / white pikmin while crippling blue and yellow. Depending on the timing & spacing, purple may or may not hit Lucas out of Nair. Mag -> aerial guarantees pikmin get knocked off and almost always die.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but Olimar's nB (Pikmin Pluck) has a FAF of 11 if you pluck a Pikmin. I really doubt that you can get into Oli's face within that window of time from what is likely halfway across the stage. PK Freeze won't help cause the projectile comes out frame 14 + 5 frame jumpsquat + 13 frames of landing lag + travel time. Additionally, Nair has five hitboxes, four of which gives Lucas 3 frames of hitlag and the last one that either gives 5 or 7 (that's a bit confusing on the Lucas FD thread). You will always need all five hits to kill even a white Pikmin (has 10 HP and the 4 hits prior to the finishing one do 8 in total). You will have to take 17 frames extra from hitlag on top of general jumpsquat and landing lag frames (5 and 8, respectively), making this a 30 frame commitment at which Oli can position himself to either grab you or just keep playing neutral with you by plucking more Pikmin. Mag only gives you 3 frames of hitlag assuming you JC it asap, each loop on the aerial mag gives 3 frames extra. Doing an aerial while the Pikmin isn't dead while just give your more hitlag.

Fair stops all pikmin no matter what. And if Olimar doesn't throw a purple, Lucas can run in with any aerial, knock the pikmin off, and still have active frames while approaching (i.e. Nair / Dair / Fair).

Nair is already covered. Fair gets either 5 or 7 (again, weird FD thread) hitlag frames, but I have no clue if this makes reactable or not, so I'm just going to assume it might work for now. Dair has three hits with 4 frames of hitlag each putting it very much in the realm of "giving Oli frame advantage", as it has 9 frames of landing lag on top of that.

In addition to hitting Pikmin for the sake of keeping them off, Lucas can unstale certain moves such as PKF for more effective camping, magnet for better launch / shield pressure, etc.

Pikmin toss is just faster then DJC PK Freeze (by just 7-8 frames ish, but still). As it goes on, Olimar will be able to get his second toss out as your first PK Freeze comes out. PK Freeze only does 5 percent, so you need to hit Pikmin at least 2+ times (again, going off the white Pikmin health) before being able to kill one. And even if you do, Olimar can just pluck one and have it flying in 20 frames. Messing around with mag can also lead to latched Pikmin on Lucas's body (which magnet doesn't cover), so you either take the latch like a...boy (unless it's white) or try to knock it off (the only move that covers your entire body is also lasts 30 frames at that point).

==

Olimar's OoS options are not that great. As such, Lucas can shield pressure easily without Olimar having many counter options. His Nair is the best being frame 3, but very low priority or range. While doing multi-magnets, Lucas is holding ASDI down and will be able to avoid getting hit by the full Nair, that is to say if the move even hits Lucas since magnet is disjointed and Nair is not. Fair is their only other good option at frame 7 + 4 frame jumpsquat and grab if the Lucas decides to magnet -> wavedash back.

Eh, fair enough.

As for Olimar's shield pressure, he's got pikmin thru shield, jab, Dtilt, spaced Fair/Bair, and Nair. All of which can be punished by Lucas or easily escaped. Olimar's jump is not good enough to catch Lucas' full hop OoS unless the opponent reads it, his WD back is much faster and will reset to neutral, and aerials / grab OoS can catch Olimar unless they perfectly space, and I mean perfectly.

Olimar's shtick isn't shield pressure. Also Fair/Bair is safe on shield assuming a Purple or Red Pikmin is involved. Wouldn't Lucas's low traction mean he slides back if hit anyway, technically making it safer? And why are you jumping above Olimar?
==

As for the punish game, Lucas' is well known and I've 0-death'd Olimar much easier than the rest of the cast due to his abusable weight & fall speed, while dying super early to sweetspot Bair, Upsmash, etc. (Bair normally kills cast members around 110-130, kills Oli between 100-115, Usmash normally 100-125, kills Oli around 75-90). Not to mention how his recovery is the worst in the game since you can hardly angle the UpB or sweetspot it, the move is slow as hell, and has next to 0 disjoint or hitboxes. I could explain further but I think this will do for Lucas' side.

Well, combo's that lead into death being described would be nice. Recovery point is valid regardless, tho.

Olimar on the other hand, has pikmin -> grab and doesn't get much from grab followups otherwise. Fair can link into each other, but it's worse than Sheik Fair IMO (unless you get purple) and is easier to Amsah tech both by ASDI down during combos and if they try to punish tether getup. Dtilt can be ASDI down / CC'd or just plain DI'd away and they get only a dash attack or Fair followup.
tl;dr Olimar has to have a more solid neutral than punish because they don't get off much on Lucas in 3.6 with proper DI.

Up throw can lead into Up tilt string that can lead into an Up smash, which can lead into an Up Air and another one and another one and Bair and now you're off stage. Enjoy F-smashed Pikmin clipping your jump and generally make recovering super hard.
Down throw can lead into Dtilt or DA, which can lead into a DA or Fair/Up tilt respectively. Oli's punishes might not be as varied and 0 to death-y as others, but he has really strong juggles on mostly everyone, especially on semi FFers like Lucas. You might outpunish Oli, but by how much is debatable.

Personal response:
Someone please feel free to debate me on this. But the whole "pikmin toss is godlike in neutral and Lucas can't do anything about it" is BS. If there's anything more to his punish game I would honestly like to know / see it in-game. I've yet to see how Lucas could struggle in this matchup due to multiple aggressive options and hitboxes that deal with Olimar. I think that it's only slight Lucas favor due to pikmin being able to contest PKF and enough tools to keep up with Lucas. I don't, however, feel that Olimar has what it takes to beat Lucas consistently at top level gameplay, but in a Bo5 I could see the set going to game 4 or 5 easily due to stage picks.

Well, took a while and some people replied while I was typing, but there it is. It's the bolded text in the spoiler.

 

[DMG]

Olimar is really good and really bad.

 

[Life]

I would assume DJC uair shakes Pikmin off pretty efficiently if Lucas does get tagged? Doesn't easily let Lucas approach at the same time like his longer-lasting hitboxes, but it's not a huge commitment or anything and I'm pretty sure it covers most of Lucas' body (maybe not his legs IDK been a while since I tested Lucas things).

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

like in theory pikmin toss waveland and proper pikmin rotation is a godlike tool and allows theory olimar to have a top-tier matchup spread (but still lose to fox RIP) mainly because the dps of olimar means he just has to play keep away pikmin toss until like 60% at which point he can just abuse his silly grab range, get a white, pummel twice and then uthrow/dthrow to purple fair/uair kills

but in practice utilizing those godlike tools is really difficult when they're attached to a character that's as basura as olimar is

theory olimar is top tier but the chances of us ever seeing practice olimar get close to reasonable theory olimar is very small

so olimar is about midtier
my opinion on all olimar matchups is that they're even or olimar wins slightly except for fox but all of the matchups are really hard to play right

also olimar ****s on ganon

(but feel free to categorically disregard this opinion because I'm bad, you're probably correct in doing so)

 

[DMG]

I wish all my MU's aside from Fox were winning or even. Sounds like you just described theory-mon Wolf or MK

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

nah because practical wolf and mk are also all close to winning or even

 

[zFrost]

imo olimar is a demi god onstage but get him offstage and he's gone, good combo tools, disjoint can camp and space easily, good throws and range overall. pikmin if used correctly have a lot of power

 

[didds]

Honestly I'm just sad that yoshi has a harder time using platform waveland shenanigans in this game because of whatever the reason is i forget.

But he's still mid tier just like everyone else who's not fat or obviously high tier. I think he has some weird glitchy things going on still (not sure details) but it seems rare enough to not really affect the outcome of the match.

I think yoshi fell off because any serious yoshi main (if any) probably doesn't care to post here, for reasons quite thoroughly examined in the past few pages. Anyone left was probably mid level player enough to feel like they got hit super hard and made the character unplayable.

Anyone who can vouch for him is actually playing and discussing with his/her circle, so all that's left are people with less than favorable opinions or no opinions at all.

Well there's odds_ sneaking in his positive suspicions so that's neat. Yoshi is fine and is still one of those "is this guy good? Oh **** he's got some bonker tools regardless" characters.

 

[DMG]

rip yoshi parry

 

[didds]

At least he can jump oos and his nair actually covers his foot. Sometimes pm yoshis disregard how far we have truly come

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

what yoshi lost in parry he gained in the ability to no-impact land on any platform he pleases


something that olimar also has

 

[Player -0]

Pikmin Pluck op af bois.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Well there's odds_ sneaking in his positive suspicions so that's neat. Yoshi is fine and is still one of those "is this guy good? Oh **** he's got some bonker tools regardless" characters.

Suspicions is the best way to put it. I still think he's awful and his tier list placement is justified, but I suspect that if he's played near-perfectly he may be able to win a national.

 

[didds]

Awful is not so bad in this game

 

[Frost | Odds]

Awful is not so bad in this game

non-bowser/pit main spotted

 

[GabPR]

On the topic of wether a bad player has good opinions or not, higher level players should be able to spot good ideas or opinions if they keep an open mind about it, as well as lower level players should learn and understand the opinions of those that play better.

Tl:dr - Keep an open mind

 

[didds]

non-bowser/pit main spotted

Touché, but then you may have to concede that yoshi is more of a "bad" and not quite an "awful". I refuse to subject myself to playing bowser

 

[D e l t a]

On mobile so I'm not going to quote every single phrase in response to the Lucas v Oli MU. I definitely dont think its unwinnable, but Oli has to work hard at it.

The fast faller combos I'll lab out later and see how they work firsthand unless someone has vods showing them in-game.

To give a general rundown of Lucas' combo game on Oli / similar weights:

DJC / PKF links into itself, magnet, Down / forward tilt, grab, Nair, Dair, and PKF from 0 to ~25%

Dthrow:

0-25%

• Fair (DI behind) -> regrab/aerial
• Uair / Utilt (no DI) -> Uairs / 1 more Utilt -> Uair / Fair
• Bair -> regrab / magnet / Utilt

25-70%

• Fair (DI Behind) -> Fair / Uair strings
• Uair (no DI) -> Uairs / Fair if they start to DI Uair away

70-115%

• Sweetspot Bair if no DI
• OU Upsmash (no DI) / DACUS (DI behind)
• Uair (no DI / slight DI behind) -> Bair
• Fair (DI behind) -> Bair or Uair -> Bair

> 115%

• Uthrow instead

There's also some oddities with dash attack and magnet mixups

==

As for PKF vs Pikmin toss in neutral, it appears that you all assume Lucas will be standing still and taking these pikmin to the face for free while PKF is helpless. Grounded PKF out-ranges pikmin and DJC PKF is still better if it hits Oli than pikmin are hitting Lucas. Yes, not all the pikmin will die when latched onto Lucas, but he can still run up and attack through the Pikmin despite Oli's short WD back. Stop thinking in terms of hitlag frames and think realistically about approaches and defensive options. Hitlag only means the frames are out for longer and if an enemy character is in hitlag, they have the ability to SDI during that time. It doesn't mean "welp, I'm unable to do anything now."

I think that Lucas v Oli defines good offensive character with average defense meets defense character with average offense. Their styles in neutral are similar: use projectile, get grab, do combos, meanwhile they have similar weaknesses: easily juggled, telegraphed recovery, tether grab.

The defining points to me lie within Lucas' strong mixup game, ability to control stage very well and quickly change the tempo of a match (even when up or down a stock), and access to kill setups / high kill power.

 

[Player -0]

You're (probably) missing the general point, even if Lucas GENERALLY avoids all the pikmin PKF isn't going to do anything as it either just straight won't hit or a pikmin will get hit by it (and then more pikmin behind). To even throw out a safe PKF Lucas has to give up stage control or be dash dancing to make Olimar respect space.

The problem with dash dancing is more than likely a pikmin will latch onto Lucas, this requires him to take damage or hit it off. Olimar does dash dance shenanigans as well and wants pivot grab.

random other stuff goes here.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

to be honest I feel as though you could replace all instances of "lucas" with "olimar" and vice versa and make a argument either way

The defining points to me lie within olimar's strong mixup game, ability to control stage very well and quickly change the tempo of a match (even when up or down a stock), and access to kill setups / high kill power.

like this also make perfect sense
olimar has access to pikmin toss waveland and by rotating pikmin can change the trajectory/purpose of those pikmin to go above other projectiles/hit people out of the air. if olimar gets one grab and has a flowered purple he can kill you from a grab at 50 or 60 percent

I'm not actually giving anything to the argument aside from stating olimar's tools in response to somebody simply stating lucas' tools

nobody knows anything the mu is 50/50 until proven otherwise

 

[Ningildo]

On mobile so I'm not going to quote every single phrase in response to the Lucas v Oli MU. I definitely dont think its unwinnable, but Oli has to work hard at it.

The fast faller combos I'll lab out later and see how they work firsthand unless someone has vods showing them in-game.

To give a general rundown of Lucas' combo game on Oli / similar weights:

DJC / PKF links into itself, magnet, Down / forward tilt, grab, Nair, Dair, and PKF from 0 to ~25%

Dthrow:

0-25%

• Fair (DI behind) -> regrab/aerial
• Uair / Utilt (no DI) -> Uairs / 1 more Utilt -> Uair / Fair
• Bair -> regrab / magnet / Utilt

25-70%

• Fair (DI Behind) -> Fair / Uair strings
• Uair (no DI) -> Uairs / Fair if they start to DI Uair away

70-115%

• Sweetspot Bair if no DI
• OU Upsmash (no DI) / DACUS (DI behind)
• Uair (no DI / slight DI behind) -> Bair
• Fair (DI behind) -> Bair or Uair -> Bair

> 115%

• Uthrow instead

There's also some oddities with dash attack and magnet mixups

==

As for PKF vs Pikmin toss in neutral, it appears that you all assume Lucas will be standing still and taking these pikmin to the face for free while PKF is helpless. Grounded PKF out-ranges pikmin and DJC PKF is still better if it hits Oli than pikmin are hitting Lucas. Yes, not all the pikmin will die when latched onto Lucas, but he can still run up and attack through the Pikmin despite Oli's short WD back. Stop thinking in terms of hitlag frames and think realistically about approaches and defensive options. Hitlag only means the frames are out for longer and if an enemy character is in hitlag, they have the ability to SDI during that time. It doesn't mean "welp, I'm unable to do anything now."

I think that Lucas v Oli defines good offensive character with average defense meets defense character with average offense. Their styles in neutral are similar: use projectile, get grab, do combos, meanwhile they have similar weaknesses: easily juggled, telegraphed recovery, tether grab.

The defining points to me lie within Lucas' strong mixup game, ability to control stage very well and quickly change the tempo of a match (even when up or down a stock), and access to kill setups / high kill power.

I was assuming both characters were going to be projectile heavy while DDing all over the place actually.

Grounded PK Freeze does outrange Pikmin Toss...except it then comes out on frame 24 and has FAF/IASA on frame 43. Pikmin can clang with PK Freeze and due it being faster, you will get hit eventually with a Pikmin if you want to keep playing the projectile game.

99% sure only the defending character in hitlag can SDI, so uh...

I don't feel qualified enough to say with certainty what Olimar's archetype is, so I'll leave that at that.

 

[Bazkip]

also olimar ****s on ganon

I've seen this said multiple times with no explanation ever provided. Seems like it wouldn't be too bad for Ganon. Fast fall autocancel nair can get rid of attached Pikmin without too much commitment. And Ganon can just be like "lol I trade with you" for everything and then Oli dies early or gets egeguarded cause his recovery is trash.

Oli probably ****s Ganon up when he gets in and can get him offstage and edgeguard him easily, but it's not like that's an uncommon issue for Ganon.

But of course yada yada nobody knows anything about Oli everything I said is wrong matchup is actually 110 to -10 or something idk
I just want an explanation.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I've seen this said multiple times with no explanation ever provided. Seems like it wouldn't be too bad for Ganon. Fast fall autocancel nair can get rid of attached Pikmin without too much commitment. And Ganon can just be like "lol I trade with you" for everything and then Oli dies early or gets egeguarded cause his recovery is trash.

Oli probably ****s Ganon up when he gets in and can get him offstage and edgeguard him easily, but it's not like that's an uncommon problem for Ganon.

But of course yada yada nobody knows anything about Oli everything I said is wrong matchup is actually 110 to -10 or something idk
I just need an explanation.

like the thing that I've seen/messed around with is that ganon can't really get close to olimar at all and ganon's usual strategy of controlling space with autocancel nair and spaced fair doesn't really work against pikmin because he either gets stuck and takes damage or trades with a purple, at which point olimar can be right up in his face and **** him up. also ganon's other randy approach options of dacus/downb/sideb either clank or straight up lose to purple toss or fsmash/dsmash.
olimar can just run away and harass ganon as much as he wants and ganon is kept at such a range that he can't really do much because if he comes close he either eats a bunch of damage or gets grabbed and a grab leads to a death or a free edgeguard in which olimar can just fsmash drop pikmin off the ledge

also I think olimar is short enough that autocancel nair loses to a blue grab because the hitboxes just go above him and then olimar can grab the 5 frames of landing lag than ganon has

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

imo olimar is a demi god onstage but get him offstage and he's gone, good combo tools, disjoint can camp and space easily, good throws and range overall. pikmin if used correctly have a lot of power

So he basically plays like 64 Link? Awesome. Gonna test him later.

I would assume DJC uair shakes Pikmin off pretty efficiently if Lucas does get tagged? Doesn't easily let Lucas approach at the same time like his longer-lasting hitboxes, but it's not a huge commitment or anything and I'm pretty sure it covers most of Lucas' body (maybe not his legs IDK been a while since I tested Lucas things).

Why not NAir? Like, seriously, why even bother to just not SH NAir?


Just curious here since I basically never played an PM Olimar in my life, What can he even do after throwing Pikmin?
I just can't really see him beating Ganon that badly, but I admit I have 0 XP in that MU. Can't he reflect the flying salads with his cape or something? Is it so common for Olimar to get those purple pikmin?

 

[Bazkip]

I actually have no idea if Pikmin can be caped lmao.
Never bothered checking because it'd be completely pointless. You'd never hit him unless he was throwing them point blank for some reason, and there's most likely enough time for Olimar to punish Ganon during the endlag.

Cape, like the vast majority of reflectors in Smash, is not terribly useful for dealing with projectiles most of the time.