Tier List Speculation

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Its ****ing christmas eve, stop talking about chain grab throw staling and go kiss someone

tfw no gf

 

[Life]

insert joke about finding random stranger to smooch here

Merry Christmas, speculators.

I should've given you all a tier list as a present.

 

[Strong Badam]

Coal for all of you! >=( Take it to tha social thread please.

 

[Soft Serve]

Bah Humbug

Sry SB.


Pikachu is crazy underrated. Feel the need to put time into this character, Pika needs more labbing and busting. Sleeper high/top tier imo, along with the other half of the cast.

 

[DrinkingFood]

My character has free CGs and DI doesn't matter. I'd rather make my opponent give up by them being unable to move for 20 seconds than get there in less time with slightly more damage. With what you said, it backs up that it, "helps extend how long the CG actually lasts."

make your opponent give up? That's not going to work on anybody with a decent mindset lol. That's not a real strategy. If your CG lasts 7-8 throws and not 5, nobody's really going to give a ****. Yes the CG lasts for a longer period of time, that's usually not what people refer to when they say something "lasts for longer" in terms of punishments, they usually mean in terms of percent.

 

[Bazkip]

One day someone will fully implement the strat of drawing out chaingrabs with staling to run the clock and timeout opponents in order to prove DrinkingFood wrong

DMG you're our only hope

 

[DrinkingFood]

I mean
that would be cool
if it could actually work
But you probably aren't going appreciably stale your grab from the START of your chaingrab tho. Because that's the only way it gets significantly longer. The chaingrab naturally stales the uthrow, so the only way staling makes a difference is if it starts out staled. And the only way that's gonna happen is if you go directly from one stock's chaingrab (using a minimal number of conversions from the chaingrab to kill so you don't unstale the uthrow too much) to the next stock's chaingrab at 0.

 

[DMG]

Bazkip you must have me mistaken for my Brawl days. I come to Melee and PM to actually fight people, not to dance around for wins (some wins were free as could be though, praise Wario and praise Brinstar / RC for being legal a long time)

 

[Bazkip]

I mean
that would be cool
if it could actually work
But you probably aren't going appreciably stale your grab from the START of your chaingrab tho. Because that's the only way it gets significantly longer. The chaingrab naturally stales the uthrow, so the only way staling makes a difference is if it starts out staled. And the only way that's gonna happen is if you go directly from one stock's chaingrab (using a minimal number of conversions from the chaingrab to kill so you don't unstale the uthrow too much) to the next stock's chaingrab at 0.

Why you gotta ruin my bad joke

 

[Player -0]

If the formula takes the base damage of the move then staleness shouldn't affect knockback then.

And that's not what's being said above.

Strong Badam Probably knows.

SB pls.

Edit - Also Murry Christmus

 

[Deleted member]

make your opponent give up? That's not going to work on anybody with a decent mindset lol.

you're not... "wrong" per se from an academic standpoint, but you're wrong from a practical one. even though top end competitive players are supposed to be unphased by emotion and all that, it is exceptionally rare to find such a person. in my experience, smash has exactly one (armada) and even other comparably talented players are rather easily flustered. if you want a lesson in human psychology, go play pokemon with klefki and come back and tell me how composed your competition was.

 

[EmptySky00]

I think Klefki is fun.

..Excuse me *ahem*


More fun than playing against Umbreon.**

 

[DMG]

Klefki? Psh try Jirachi. Flinch yourself to victory, no other Pokemon has given blood boiling wrath as much as Jirachi (maybe Mega Rayquaza, the **** were they thinking?)

 

[KinGly]

TIL that keys are Pokemon now. Thanks tier list speculator in thread, and merry Christmas <3

 

[DMG]

They legit ran out of ideas in Pokemon and turned real life stuff into 'Mons. There's an Ice Cream Pokemon, they've gone too far.

 

[Strong Badam]

If the formula takes the base damage of the move then staleness shouldn't affect knockback then.

And that's not what's being said above.

Strong Badam Probably knows.

SB pls.

I answered this briefly on the previous page but here's a more in-depth answer:

The base damage of the move is used in the formula. For that part of the formula, staleness has no effect. In Brawl, staleness does matter in that part and is most of the reason staling is so much more of an issue in Brawl.
So like, obviously, KB goes up with damage, if you get hit at 100% compared to 0% you go further. The KB formula uses post-hit damage to calculate knockback. For example a fully staled move that does 20% will now do 11% Damage. To give you a good idea, let's say you hit someone with this attack at 100% with the move fresh. After they're hit, they have 120%. In order to incur the same amount of knockback, the fully staled version would need to hit an opponent when they are at 109%, not 100%.

 

[EmptySky00]

Klefki? Psh try Jirachi. Flinch yourself to victory, no other Pokemon has given blood boiling wrath as much as Jirachi (maybe Mega Rayquaza, the **** were they thinking?)

Your ignorance is showing if you're comparing Jirachi to Klefki. You just need to work on your swagger if you're going to keep up with the metagame imo. Only cool kids win games.

 

[Swigo]

Pikachu is crazy underrated. Feel the need to put time into this character, Pika needs more labbing and busting. Sleeper high/top tier imo, along with the other half of the cast.

Is Pikachu still underrated if everybody thinks he's secret top/high tier? Honestly though I 100% agree, I've been thinking it for a while and hasn't Nausicaa been saying it for like 2 years now lol. Does anybody have any ideas on what matchups would really be holding Pikachu back?

 

[Ya Boy GP]

FOOTSTOOLS ARE DOPE AF. I can't wait until people start using them all the time. What characters do you guys think have the best footstools? (best referring to what kind of followups you can get off of it) My opinion is characters with horizontal carrys such as ZSS, Marth, Roy, Fox, Ike? because you're not expecting to tech and they all have moves that can pop you up after a missed tech for a nice followup or something that hits strong horizontally for a good DI mixup like Ike fair

 

[Soft Serve]

Is Pikachu still underrated if everybody thinks he's secret top/high tier? Honestly though I 100% agree, I've been thinking it for a while and hasn't Nausicaa been saying it for like 2 years now lol. Does anybody have any ideas on what matchups would really be holding Pikachu back?

shiek link GnW Puff Peach aren't good MUs to struggle in.

 

[DMG]

Your ignorance is showing if you're comparing Jirachi to Klefki. You just need to work on your swagger if you're going to keep up with the metagame imo. Only cool kids win games.

Priority swagger is lame but swagger isn't a thing anymore aside from what, Nintendo VGC tourneys or Wifi? Not really comparing totally busted stuff vs mostly legal but infuriating

 

[Kapapanerp]

shiek link GnW Puff Peach aren't good MUs to struggle in.

Don't forget about Luigi. He seems to be getting a lot more representation recently.

 

[Life]

So PMU just posted their version of a community tier list.

http://*****************/index.php/...ews/12-pmu-character-tier-list-1-0?Itemid=103

Keep in mind that this is largely based on the current metagame, and in that respect it's not too bad IMO, although there are certain canine astronauts who will likely benefit from the passage of time of course.

 

[Ningildo]

When Olimar is considered worse then Zelda, Pit, Dedede and Ganon...hnngg.

I suppose it's fair when Olimar players don't get results, but still. At least our Up Smash works 9.9

 

[Strong Badam]

I have very mixed feelings about the PMU tier list for a variety of reasons:
1. The tier gaps are unrealistic, there's no way there's 12 characters of similar viability at the top.
2. When I saw the list of who was allowed to put forth a ballot, I either completely didn't know or otherwise didn't trust about 12 people on the list.
3. Furthermore, when I saw lists of "highest and lowest" placing among ballots for certain characters, I almost spit out my drink. Someone unironically put Wario at first, and there are multiple ballots with Wario at 3rd. Someone else put Toon Link at 36th. Several put G&W in top 3. Someone put Snake 40th. Like lmao? Hello???

Either way, at least we have a starting point and I expect lists to become closer and closer to mine as 3.6 develops further.

Here's the ballot I submitted. I have moved a few characters around since then, but this image reflects the one I submitted earlier this week.

 

[nimigoha]

Someone put Bowser 20th so... That's interesting.

Someone put DDD 21st.

Mewtwo, as highlighted, was 3rd on one and 38th on two.

There are a lot of questionable placings. I think that those kinds of ballots were submitted by people who either don't understand certain characters or counterplay to them or how to play effectively as them.

It's something though. Still think that "real data" should be coming from matchup spreads. If someone can't tell me Pikachu's matchup spread then I don't see why their opinion on his tier placing should be taken seriously.

PMU labeled it "1.0" which is very very apt.

It functions pretty well as "this is what's currently happening" though which is like ultimately what most tier lists do. We're eons away from an accurate theoretical their list.

 

[Deleted member]

Either way, at least we have a starting point and I expect lists to become closer and closer to mine as 3.6 develops further.

wow **** you ***** you're not always right

fox isn't even the best character in the game yknow, if you were good then youd know that *leaves thread for 2 weeks*

 

[DMG]

Well no wonder the PMU list is so wrong, they didn't ask for my opinion

 

[Luk101]

FOOTSTOOLS ARE DOPE AF. I can't wait until people start using them all the time. What characters do you guys think have the best footstools? (best referring to what kind of followups you can get off of it) My opinion is characters with horizontal carrys such as ZSS, Marth, Roy, Fox, Ike? because you're not expecting to tech and they all have moves that can pop you up after a missed tech for a nice followup or something that hits strong horizontally for a good DI mixup like Ike fair

I've seen Ness's use footstool's before, and it doens't always work this well, but after seeing Aki do this: https://gfycat.com/WhoppingFirmAlaskanmalamute I can see a lot of potential midcombo for Ness players. Mag doesn't send most opponents very far a lot of the time, so with Ness's directional dj he can follow up with footstool off of mag pretty well. It also seems like the height footstools send you up at gives you enough time to put out a dair as well. I think that for straight up gimping, fast fallers like wolf or falcon are better cause they can drop down really fast, but having a floatier character like Ness might give followups that previously wouldn't have been available. One thought I just had was a jiggly puff doing a footstool then dropping down and doing a rest.

 

[Professor Pro]

I have very mixed feelings about the PMU tier list for a variety of reasons:
1. The tier gaps are unrealistic, there's no way there's 12 characters of similar viability at the top.
2. When I saw the list of who was allowed to put forth a ballot, I either completely didn't know or otherwise didn't trust about 12 people on the list.
3. Furthermore, when I saw lists of "highest and lowest" placing among ballots for certain characters, I almost spit out my drink. Someone unironically put Wario at first, and there are multiple ballots with Wario at 3rd. Someone else put Toon Link at 36th. Several put G&W in top 3. Someone put Snake 40th. Like lmao? Hello???

Either way, at least we have a starting point and I expect lists to become closer and closer to mine as 3.6 develops further.

Here's the ballot I submitted. I have moved a few characters around since then, but this image reflects the one I submitted earlier this week.

Putting Snake at 40th is more realistic than putting Snake at 4th like someone did....just saying :D

 

[D e l t a]

RIP Double. *scratches head* "what tf just happened?"

As for footstool followups, I think that DJC and floatier characters benefit the most:
Lucas can do Bair and Dair out of footstool which seems great for kills / DI mixups.
I don't think Ness can get Bair followups, but footstool -> DJC Dair seems good
Yoshi can footstool -> DownB as a guaranteed followup from grabs / Fair on grounded opponents

Characters with a good spike option: Marth, Falcon, Fox, Mario, Falco (situationally or if he's positioned to get back to stage easy bc of his terrible recovery).

Snake is an oddity: All his aerials, C4, grenades (mixup if the opponent tries to use getup attack every time they're in knockdown), even fast fall Cypher seems pretty good to me.

Due to the footstool jump heights, some characters that are faster fallers will still be in the footstool jump animation before they can act. Others like Peach, simply don't have the greatest of options with a lack of aerial downb, bad sideb / upb / dair, etc

 

[xquqx]

38 characters are within someone's top 20, while only 4 characters are good enough to be in everyone's top 20. That's a pretty wild spread.

 

[Luk101]

RIP Double. *scratches head* "what tf just happened?"

As for footstool followups, I think that DJC and floatier characters benefit the most:
Lucas can do Bair and Dair out of footstool which seems great for kills / DI mixups.
I don't think Ness can get Bair followups, but footstool -> DJC Dair seems good
Yoshi can footstool -> DownB as a guaranteed followup from grabs / Fair on grounded opponents

Characters with a good spike option: Marth, Falcon, Fox, Mario, Falco (situationally or if he's positioned to get back to stage easy bc of his terrible recovery).

Snake is an oddity: All his aerials, C4, grenades (mixup if the opponent tries to use getup attack every time they're in knockdown), even fast fall Cypher seems pretty good to me.

Due to the footstool jump heights, some characters that are faster fallers will still be in the footstool jump animation before they can act. Others like Peach, simply don't have the greatest of options with a lack of aerial downb, bad sideb / upb / dair, etc

I think most ness's would probably expend their dj to get the footstool, so a djc dair after footstool probably wouldn't be that common. But I think that footstools on stage for ness could be huge. If a ness does a djc footstool whether in neutral or out of mag, then he can pretty much cover all the options. It will take a while for people to learn to tech and expect footstools, so Nessers can get dairs and I feel like bair should come out in time for a kill as well. And even if they do tech, then the ness can just waveland after them and start a tech chase. His waveland, especially perfect, can cover a lot of tech rolls so this actually could be huge.

 

[DrinkingFood]

the ****, how did wolf end up at tenth
that means there was likely a lot of placement with him below tenth as there was with him in top ten, when he's easily a top 5 character lol
I had put him at 2nd myself

also lol@labeling the bottom tier "viable"
like c'mon guys. yeah PM is pretty balanced. But it's a little early to be expecting much from bottom tiers, and I kinda doubt they'll improve with time

 

[Jolteon]

I have similar feelings to SB, but I think it's okay as a starting point when you consider that a) PM is really balanced and b) most initial tier lists suck when you look back at them several years later.

I'd post my contribution to the project, but I only had like 2 hours to make it lol, so I'd wanna refine it before doing so.

Putting Snake at 40th is more realistic than putting Snake at 4th like someone did....just saying :D

snake carries you btw

 

[Ripple]

Someone put DDD 21st.

I'm sorry for starting this delusion in people.

 

[DMG]

PMDT had a dream of low tier D3, they finally worked hard patch after patch to accomplish it

I hope they message me for tier list later, I could fix so much of that list it hurts me somewhere in the dong. My speculation = best speculation

 

[Bazkip]

wtf am I reading

 

[Deleted member]

if I complain about my mains like ripple and professor pro do, will I become a top player?!?

Roy has no kill power (am I good yet?)

 

[Soft Serve]

if I complain about my mains like ripple and professor pro do, will I become a top player?!?

Roy has no kill power (am I good yet?)

Don't forget how Tink loses to rush down, bigger swords, and the melee characters